Hey! How's everyone doing? I have to admit I've been cheating on my mill deck with the new Mono U Living End deck.
It started with the bug with Fuse cards and Hideaway that made me not want to play leagues, and then I found this new deck and got into it...
Inmolating Glare seems strictly worse than Blessed Alliance, you should try that one!
What are the copies of Solemnity for? Infect is faster than that and you already have a lot of removal, same for Vizier/Druid combo (plus you have Orb there).
Am I missing some cool use for it?
Inmolating Glare seems strictly worse than Blessed Alliance, you should try that one!
What are the copies of Solemnity for? Infect is faster than that and you already have a lot of removal, same for Vizier/Druid combo (plus you have Orb there).
Am I missing some cool use for it?
Blessed Alliance is probably a better version of what Glare does, except for when they swing with a 1/1 and a 5/5 Like I said, it's a flex spot that can/will be any number of different things.
Yes, Infect *can* be faster than Solemnity, but Path + Push does buy me plenty of time against them to ensure a Solemnity locks the game up. Same for Vizier/Druid combo. Orb is another hedge there, but I like to have varied threats and Orb also gives me some protection against other things too.
Solemnity does shut down a decent number of things that see play in Modern
Steel Overseer
Arcbound Ravager
Chalice of the Void
Hangerback Walker
Walking Ballista
Scavenging Ooze
Kitchen Finks
Thing in the Ice
Aether Vial
there may be others, but these are the big ones I could recall off the top of my head.
that said, I'd be pretty keen on dropping Solemity + Glare and playing 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 1 silver bullet like a Grafdigger's Cage or another Surgical Extraction or something.
Just as a heads up, Solemnity doesn't stop Kitchen Finks, it just makes it better, since it can come back infinte times. Probably doesn't matter much in our matchup since we don't care about life gain, but yeah, just be sure to have a Path for it or you'll never get rid of it.
Also Thing in the ice, it will just flip on the first spell they cast, way better than before!
Vial can't get any higher, but will still work fine with the counters it has.
I love Solemnity and the weird interactions it has, maybe there's a different set of cards where you can abuse it better (like adding a Phyrexian unlife for a lock, and some ways to tutor for them, but that probably becomes a different deck at that point)
Blessed Alliance can be brought in against burn. It is good against infect/boggles/kiln fiend etc... It's just a more flexible card.
Bridge is mainly for Death Shadow/Angler and TKS/Reality Smasher for the tier 1 decks... It hoses other random decks like Boggles and even Humans. You should be boarding them out vs fast decks that go low like Affinity/Elves/Merfolk/Zoo/burn etc... It definitely sucks to play Bridge main deck along with 4x Mesmeric Orb because it makes all artifact hate good cards to bring in. It's just one of those swingy cards where if you have it for the right matchup it is the best card in your deck... or the worst.
Every mill deck plays either Surgical or Extirpate. Surgical is the only card maindeckable in my opinion. Across the field it is a better card but Extirpate will win you games that Surgical can't such as UR Breach. It's also a lot better vs GDS because they can't stubborn denial it. Most lists will usually combine one of those 2 cards with either Leyline of the Void/Nihil Spellbomb/Ravenous Trap. Sometimes you will see 1-2 Trapmaker's Snare mainboard which leads to Ravenous Trap in the sideboard. Don't play Fraying Sanity if you plan to use Leyline of the Void sideboard. Out of the 3 options mentioned above Leyline of the Void has the most impact but only on turn 0. You need to mulligan aggressively for it against some matchups or you just won't win. As of now I'm playing 2 Surgical Mainboard and 2 Extirpate and 1 Surgical sideboard.
Jace's Phantasm is awesome in our bad matchups (burn/affinity/infect). Non Crainial Plating draws will stop affinity from attacking for several turns often winning you the game. Infect will need to waste 2 pump spells or 1 pump spell and their creature to get it off the board. One of your best draws to beat burn is 1 Glimpse and 2+ Phantasms and you go for the beatdown plan. You can also trick burn players into casting bolts on Phantasm in which you can Archive Trap in response to get em'. The two main ways you beat burn are Crypt Incursion and Phantasm beats. If you hate playing against Ponza and want the blood moon land destruction player to get salty at you then play Jace's Phantasm. The Ponza deck can't beat a 5/5 flier. I have won several games against them with zero lands in play and only casting 2 spells against them (Phantasm and Glimpse). Phantasm is bad against decks that play a lot of removal. I would make him the first cut against All of the 3 color "fair decks" and Death Shadow. If you play Leyline of the Void sideboard you should just board out Phantasm for it since they are nonbo.
Manic Scribe is good against burn and fast decks with a lot of 2 power creatures. At the beginning of the game he is an 0/3 mill 3 that can usually stall an attacker or at least get in the way. He's also good against grindy decks where you just need a constant source of milling. Later in the game you will have delirium and he accumulates a lot of value. He gets around Leyline too so if your opponent is locked out with Bridge you can win the long game with him even if the Leyline is out in play. He's kind of worthless against Affinity because all their creatures fly and the matchup isn't about grinding them out. You usually don't have enough good cards to bring in so he stays in against nearly every deck. I think it is very important for you to play 10+ creatures if you plan on using Scribe because your opponent killing your creatures is the key for turning on delirium for him. Also having more threats allows your guys to stay on the board. If they don't answer phantasm he will just kill them and if they answer phantasm it usually means your Scribes are milling 3 a turn or your crabs are able to stay alive and mill 10+ cards a game. My current build runs 4x Crab/Scribe/Phantasm. I have not gotten around to testing Jace Vryn's prodigy much but would echo the sentiment that he requires a high creature count or else he will just die as soon as he enters the battlefield.
As for the best mill list. Still up for debate because none of them are really good. You have the Esper list from the SCG classic that plays 12 anti creature cards main deck (path/push/bridge/incursion/damnation). You have the Scribes/phantasm/orb list from GP LA and GP Birmingham. Then you have the Fraying Sanity build from Toybird that went 10-0 in a Modern Challenge a few months back and Quartz has a similar list. For the most part all mill decks will be one of those 3 builds. Each one has strengths and weaknesses. The Esper mana base it very painful and will cost you games against decks like burn and affinity that UB will have more equity against. White gives you a clean answer to Leyline of Sanctity with Disenchant/Fragmentize and path to exile mainboard which makes your death shadow and random combo matchups like Devoted Company a lot better. The matchups where you want creature removal in your deck are better for Esper because they have more playable removal spells. Esper can't beat Blood Moon, UB can. Once you get used to playing with Set Adrift and Echoing Truth you learn how to play against Leyline of Sanctity and can win games against a T0 Leyline. It all depends what you want to beat and what you enjoy playing.
Just thinking about the deck it plays so many cards that are either great or horrible based on the matchup (Surgical, Jace's Phantasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Crypt Incursion, fatal push). Being able to discard these dead cards for value makes me think Collective Brutality should definitely have a home. There was a new 5-0 list that mainboarded 2 copies. Collective Brutality can also enable delirium for a Scribe or get rid of an uncastable trap or extra lands for your Ensnaring Bridge. I probably need to play more games with this card.
Just curious, how has Solemnity been for you in the above mentioned matchups?
it's been fine, but not amazing. I'm currently testing 4 Leyline of Sanctity and an additional Surgical Extraction in place of the Solemnity and Immolating Glares, also considering Ensnaring Bridge instead of Leyline. Hard to say which is better. Leyline is dope against all the hand disruption, but the Bridges are great against all the aggro, particularly Tarmogoyfs, which become HUGE with our mill. Between Bridge, Path, Push, and Damnation (and occasional Surgical Extraction before they cast one) I think that Tarmo can be handled, but I've lost more than a few games to a turn 2 Tarmo that was 6+ power on turn 3
Bridge is probably best choice, if I had a tournament tomorrow this is how my sideboard would probably look:
I realize not many play Tormod's Crypt, but it is in my list of 75 sideboard cards for anti-Eldrazi Titans.
We have a new contender for the throne, I think, in Sentinel Totem. Scry 1 when it etb is a handy T1 play in a deck that struggles with that slot due to Fatal Push shoving Hedron Crab and Jace's Phantasm out.
Looking further, I see Tomb Robber, which seems a bit of a reach at 3 mana, but oh, that ability! When I consider the menace and the cost making it harder for Push to reach, and the instant speed ability enabling us to quickly get out of Bolt range, this card looks better and better all the time. In an Ensnaring Bridge based defense, this card empties your hand as fast as you like and it gives you a great threat should the wall come down. In Chess, we call this a fork.
"empties your hand as fast as you like"? You must a) pay 3 to deploy a 1/1 creature that will prob die next turn, then u gotta spend at least 3 more mana to make it "bolt proof".
how does this make a mill deck better? They are like a ton of better creatures for this deck
The biggest problem for a Mill deck relying on Ensnaring Bridge as a defense against attacks is often hand size. This can come down T4 after Bridge, and remove an additional card by Exploring. If you also play a land, that's up to 3 cards out of your hand, and you likely have a 2/2, after you explore. Not quite as efficient as Collective Brutality, but it helps to pose a threat to the opponent should they Nature's Claim your wall, and provides an ongoing card disposal service. This is especially relevant if they've put Chalice of the Void on 2 and taken away your best mill cards. I've lost games in the past because I drew a Glimpse I couldn't cast or discard, and their 1 drop was able to get through and be pumped. Sucked.
Is this optimal? Not at all. But it is a tool we can turn to if needed.
We have a new contender for the throne, I think, in Sentinel Totem. Scry 1 when it etb is a handy T1 play in a deck that struggles with that slot due to Fatal Push shoving Hedron Crab and Jace's Phantasm out.
No. Hedron Crab requires 1 mana and then nothing more besides playing Magic to benefit you. Phantasm is not worth playing. Sentinel Totem is not either.
Looking further, I see Tomb Robber, which seems a bit of a reach at 3 mana, but oh, that ability! When I consider the menace and the cost making it harder for Push to reach, and the instant speed ability enabling us to quickly get out of Bolt range, this card looks better and better all the time. In an Ensnaring Bridge based defense, this card empties your hand as fast as you like and it gives you a great threat should the wall come down. In Chess, we call this a fork.
Seriously? No. 3 mana for an ability to pay MORE mana to discard a single card is AWFUL. If you're hard up to discard cards, there are many better ways to do it. Zombie Infestation would be better and it's terrible.
Well, its a staple for a new format. They are shaping how they want this format to work. It's going to be a little slower, as things are costed a little more. It's looking like a true T4 or T5 format based upon costs of certain tweaked staples. (See: [[Crook of Condemnation]] vs [[Relic of Progenitus]] for a great example.)
Doesn't mean we can't still make use of it. Knowing what is coming really helps us know how to respond to what the opponent does. Card advantage is power, but so is knowledge.
Well, its a staple for a new format. They are shaping how they want this format to work. It's going to be a little slower, as things are costed a little more. It's looking like a true T4 or T5 format based upon costs of certain tweaked staples. (See: [[Crook of Condemnation]] vs [[Relic of Progenitus]] for a great example.)
Doesn't mean we can't still make use of it. Knowing what is coming really helps us know how to respond to what the opponent does. Card advantage is power, but so is knowledge.
Uhhh... you know this is Modern, right? The format is not new and nothing has changed in the format for over a year now. Relic is still legal and I would wager literally anything it will never be banned from Modern.
I think you misunderstand. The card in question was referenced as a worse nihil spellbomb. The reason it is worse, is because they are laying the foundations for a new format, and this will be a staple in it. that format wuill be a turn or 2 slower than Modern, which is why so many 'similar to' cards are being costed higher.
As for it's use in modern, probably not much. I always evaluate new B/U cards in terms of mill, and if it has any use at all.
I've played quite a bit of mill recently and this is the list I have come up with for the Hedron Crab/Glimpse the Unthinkable shell. I haven't tried building or playing it yet, but I could be convinced that the most competitive mill deck is actually much closer to current UW control lists (Cryptics/Spreading Seas/Counter Spells in the main) than a deck which runs playsets of 0/2 crabs which can't even block lol.
I've played quite a bit of mill recently and this is the list I have come up with for the Hedron Crab/Glimpse the Unthinkable shell. I haven't tried building or playing it yet, but I could be convinced that the most competitive mill deck is actually much closer to current UW control lists (Cryptics/Spreading Seas/Counter Spells in the main) than a deck which runs playsets of 0/2 crabs which can't even block lol.
If you are running other creatures, Crab helps to "eat a removal". Manic Scribe may be the other mill creature if you want to go creature mill route.
Angler and Phantasm are generally bad for mill. The graveyard wont be filled much for delve to matter. Phantasm is not a good finisher. It will cost you more games than doing the full 20 dmg and winning you a game.
Relic should be in place of Grafdiggers. Nihil is a decent budget replacement. Black leylines are good but it turns off visions of beyond. 4x Crypt Incursion is too much. The 1st crypt that you cast is awesome. The others are meh. Running 3x or 2x will be better. You will need more bounces/counters just in case your opponents has white leylines or other cards that give them hexproof.
Lands wise, try going up more fetches if possible. I'm not in favour of darklick shores. We need every land drop to come into play untapped if possible. Shelldock maybe as a 1x/2x as a finisher.
I'm more in favour of a control mill shell that runs 4 Cryptics / Seas and even 4 serum visions. Turbo mill doesnt work in this meta unless you get a close to perfect draw. Will post my match reports if I get my mill games in this month.
It started with the bug with Fuse cards and Hideaway that made me not want to play leagues, and then I found this new deck and got into it...
Inmolating Glare seems strictly worse than Blessed Alliance, you should try that one!
What are the copies of Solemnity for? Infect is faster than that and you already have a lot of removal, same for Vizier/Druid combo (plus you have Orb there).
Am I missing some cool use for it?
Blessed Alliance is probably a better version of what Glare does, except for when they swing with a 1/1 and a 5/5 Like I said, it's a flex spot that can/will be any number of different things.
Yes, Infect *can* be faster than Solemnity, but Path + Push does buy me plenty of time against them to ensure a Solemnity locks the game up. Same for Vizier/Druid combo. Orb is another hedge there, but I like to have varied threats and Orb also gives me some protection against other things too.
Solemnity does shut down a decent number of things that see play in Modern
Steel Overseer
Arcbound Ravager
Chalice of the Void
Hangerback Walker
Walking Ballista
Scavenging Ooze
Kitchen Finks
Thing in the Ice
Aether Vial
there may be others, but these are the big ones I could recall off the top of my head.
that said, I'd be pretty keen on dropping Solemity + Glare and playing 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 1 silver bullet like a Grafdigger's Cage or another Surgical Extraction or something.
Also Thing in the ice, it will just flip on the first spell they cast, way better than before!
Vial can't get any higher, but will still work fine with the counters it has.
I love Solemnity and the weird interactions it has, maybe there's a different set of cards where you can abuse it better (like adding a Phyrexian unlife for a lock, and some ways to tutor for them, but that probably becomes a different deck at that point)
Mainly it's to stop infect, abzan combo, and affinity shenanigans
Bridge is mainly for Death Shadow/Angler and TKS/Reality Smasher for the tier 1 decks... It hoses other random decks like Boggles and even Humans. You should be boarding them out vs fast decks that go low like Affinity/Elves/Merfolk/Zoo/burn etc... It definitely sucks to play Bridge main deck along with 4x Mesmeric Orb because it makes all artifact hate good cards to bring in. It's just one of those swingy cards where if you have it for the right matchup it is the best card in your deck... or the worst.
Every mill deck plays either Surgical or Extirpate. Surgical is the only card maindeckable in my opinion. Across the field it is a better card but Extirpate will win you games that Surgical can't such as UR Breach. It's also a lot better vs GDS because they can't stubborn denial it. Most lists will usually combine one of those 2 cards with either Leyline of the Void/Nihil Spellbomb/Ravenous Trap. Sometimes you will see 1-2 Trapmaker's Snare mainboard which leads to Ravenous Trap in the sideboard. Don't play Fraying Sanity if you plan to use Leyline of the Void sideboard. Out of the 3 options mentioned above Leyline of the Void has the most impact but only on turn 0. You need to mulligan aggressively for it against some matchups or you just won't win. As of now I'm playing 2 Surgical Mainboard and 2 Extirpate and 1 Surgical sideboard.
Jace's Phantasm is awesome in our bad matchups (burn/affinity/infect). Non Crainial Plating draws will stop affinity from attacking for several turns often winning you the game. Infect will need to waste 2 pump spells or 1 pump spell and their creature to get it off the board. One of your best draws to beat burn is 1 Glimpse and 2+ Phantasms and you go for the beatdown plan. You can also trick burn players into casting bolts on Phantasm in which you can Archive Trap in response to get em'. The two main ways you beat burn are Crypt Incursion and Phantasm beats. If you hate playing against Ponza and want the blood moon land destruction player to get salty at you then play Jace's Phantasm. The Ponza deck can't beat a 5/5 flier. I have won several games against them with zero lands in play and only casting 2 spells against them (Phantasm and Glimpse). Phantasm is bad against decks that play a lot of removal. I would make him the first cut against All of the 3 color "fair decks" and Death Shadow. If you play Leyline of the Void sideboard you should just board out Phantasm for it since they are nonbo.
Manic Scribe is good against burn and fast decks with a lot of 2 power creatures. At the beginning of the game he is an 0/3 mill 3 that can usually stall an attacker or at least get in the way. He's also good against grindy decks where you just need a constant source of milling. Later in the game you will have delirium and he accumulates a lot of value. He gets around Leyline too so if your opponent is locked out with Bridge you can win the long game with him even if the Leyline is out in play. He's kind of worthless against Affinity because all their creatures fly and the matchup isn't about grinding them out. You usually don't have enough good cards to bring in so he stays in against nearly every deck. I think it is very important for you to play 10+ creatures if you plan on using Scribe because your opponent killing your creatures is the key for turning on delirium for him. Also having more threats allows your guys to stay on the board. If they don't answer phantasm he will just kill them and if they answer phantasm it usually means your Scribes are milling 3 a turn or your crabs are able to stay alive and mill 10+ cards a game. My current build runs 4x Crab/Scribe/Phantasm. I have not gotten around to testing Jace Vryn's prodigy much but would echo the sentiment that he requires a high creature count or else he will just die as soon as he enters the battlefield.
As for the best mill list. Still up for debate because none of them are really good. You have the Esper list from the SCG classic that plays 12 anti creature cards main deck (path/push/bridge/incursion/damnation). You have the Scribes/phantasm/orb list from GP LA and GP Birmingham. Then you have the Fraying Sanity build from Toybird that went 10-0 in a Modern Challenge a few months back and Quartz has a similar list. For the most part all mill decks will be one of those 3 builds. Each one has strengths and weaknesses. The Esper mana base it very painful and will cost you games against decks like burn and affinity that UB will have more equity against. White gives you a clean answer to Leyline of Sanctity with Disenchant/Fragmentize and path to exile mainboard which makes your death shadow and random combo matchups like Devoted Company a lot better. The matchups where you want creature removal in your deck are better for Esper because they have more playable removal spells. Esper can't beat Blood Moon, UB can. Once you get used to playing with Set Adrift and Echoing Truth you learn how to play against Leyline of Sanctity and can win games against a T0 Leyline. It all depends what you want to beat and what you enjoy playing.
Just thinking about the deck it plays so many cards that are either great or horrible based on the matchup (Surgical, Jace's Phantasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Crypt Incursion, fatal push). Being able to discard these dead cards for value makes me think Collective Brutality should definitely have a home. There was a new 5-0 list that mainboarded 2 copies. Collective Brutality can also enable delirium for a Scribe or get rid of an uncastable trap or extra lands for your Ensnaring Bridge. I probably need to play more games with this card.
it's been fine, but not amazing. I'm currently testing 4 Leyline of Sanctity and an additional Surgical Extraction in place of the Solemnity and Immolating Glares, also considering Ensnaring Bridge instead of Leyline. Hard to say which is better. Leyline is dope against all the hand disruption, but the Bridges are great against all the aggro, particularly Tarmogoyfs, which become HUGE with our mill. Between Bridge, Path, Push, and Damnation (and occasional Surgical Extraction before they cast one) I think that Tarmo can be handled, but I've lost more than a few games to a turn 2 Tarmo that was 6+ power on turn 3
Bridge is probably best choice, if I had a tournament tomorrow this is how my sideboard would probably look:
3 Fragmentize
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Stony Silence
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Collective Brutality
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Torpor Orb
We have a new contender for the throne, I think, in Sentinel Totem. Scry 1 when it etb is a handy T1 play in a deck that struggles with that slot due to Fatal Push shoving Hedron Crab and Jace's Phantasm out.
Looking further, I see Tomb Robber, which seems a bit of a reach at 3 mana, but oh, that ability! When I consider the menace and the cost making it harder for Push to reach, and the instant speed ability enabling us to quickly get out of Bolt range, this card looks better and better all the time. In an Ensnaring Bridge based defense, this card empties your hand as fast as you like and it gives you a great threat should the wall come down. In Chess, we call this a fork.
Thoughts?
how does this make a mill deck better? They are like a ton of better creatures for this deck
Is this optimal? Not at all. But it is a tool we can turn to if needed.
surgical extraction and crypt incursion already cover this. tormod's crypt is not worth playing
No. Hedron Crab requires 1 mana and then nothing more besides playing Magic to benefit you. Phantasm is not worth playing. Sentinel Totem is not either.
Seriously? No. 3 mana for an ability to pay MORE mana to discard a single card is AWFUL. If you're hard up to discard cards, there are many better ways to do it. Zombie Infestation would be better and it's terrible.
stop trying to get cute.
Doesn't mean we can't still make use of it. Knowing what is coming really helps us know how to respond to what the opponent does. Card advantage is power, but so is knowledge.
Uhhh... you know this is Modern, right? The format is not new and nothing has changed in the format for over a year now. Relic is still legal and I would wager literally anything it will never be banned from Modern.
As for it's use in modern, probably not much. I always evaluate new B/U cards in terms of mill, and if it has any use at all.
the Senior Director of Wizards of the Coast disagrees.
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Field of Ruin
3 Shelldock Isle
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Artifact (3)
3 Mesmeric Orb
4 Archive Trap
4 Fatal Push
3 Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (7)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind Funeral
Creature (12)
4 Gurmag Angler
3 Jace's Phantasm
4 Hedron Crab
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Fraying Sanity
4 Crypt Incursion
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Cryptic Command
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
I've played quite a bit of mill recently and this is the list I have come up with for the Hedron Crab/Glimpse the Unthinkable shell. I haven't tried building or playing it yet, but I could be convinced that the most competitive mill deck is actually much closer to current UW control lists (Cryptics/Spreading Seas/Counter Spells in the main) than a deck which runs playsets of 0/2 crabs which can't even block lol.
If you are running other creatures, Crab helps to "eat a removal". Manic Scribe may be the other mill creature if you want to go creature mill route.
Angler and Phantasm are generally bad for mill. The graveyard wont be filled much for delve to matter. Phantasm is not a good finisher. It will cost you more games than doing the full 20 dmg and winning you a game.
Relic should be in place of Grafdiggers. Nihil is a decent budget replacement. Black leylines are good but it turns off visions of beyond. 4x Crypt Incursion is too much. The 1st crypt that you cast is awesome. The others are meh. Running 3x or 2x will be better. You will need more bounces/counters just in case your opponents has white leylines or other cards that give them hexproof.
Lands wise, try going up more fetches if possible. I'm not in favour of darklick shores. We need every land drop to come into play untapped if possible. Shelldock maybe as a 1x/2x as a finisher.
I'm more in favour of a control mill shell that runs 4 Cryptics / Seas and even 4 serum visions. Turbo mill doesnt work in this meta unless you get a close to perfect draw. Will post my match reports if I get my mill games in this month.