There's a mill primer on Reddit where the guy basically built a deck to do that and he said it's the hardest deck to play in modern. He attacks win conditions instead of mana though with his 8 extraction effects. In the primer he talks about having to guess what is in your opponent's hand when using the extraction effects and losing the game if you guess wrong etc... You have to know all of your opponents outs to killing you. Doesn't seem to be any better than other versions and is just way harder to pilot.
Shame you couldn't finish off Living End with all of that grave hate. With that deck and U/R Breach being by far the most represented Emrakul deck. Extirpate seems to have many matchups where it is preferred over surgical, especially out of the sideboard.
Shame you couldn't finish off Living End with all of that grave hate. ... Extirpate seems to have many matchups where it is preferred over surgical, especially out of the sideboard.
Yes, I definitely learned that lesson. Even one Extirpate would have changed the whole game. He had a sideboard that was tons of control, and I just had no way to deal with it.
On another topic, when do you guys board out Fraying Sanity? I'm all over the place with it.
There's a mill primer on Reddit where the guy basically built a deck to do that and he said it's the hardest deck to play in modern. He attacks win conditions instead of mana though with his 8 extraction effects. In the primer he talks about having to guess what is in your opponent's hand when using the extraction effects and losing the game if you guess wrong etc... You have to know all of your opponents outs to killing you. Doesn't seem to be any better than other versions and is just way harder to pilot.
Shame you couldn't finish off Living End with all of that grave hate. With that deck and U/R Breach being by far the most represented Emrakul deck. Extirpate seems to have many matchups where it is preferred over surgical, especially out of the sideboard.
Good point. How about 4 IOK and 4 Thoughtseize as well? A few Fatal Push, and we're set, right?
Had a nice long post about Fraying Sanity's performance then my window refreshed and I lost the whole thing. The best matchups for Fraying Sanity in my opinion are the decks that don't kill you as soon as possible. UW/Grixis Control, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Jund, Abzan, etc... The worst matchups are the ones where you tap out on turn 3 for Fraying Sanity and then you are hoping they don't kill you on the next turn because you took a turn off. I don't have a decklist that is built around Fraying Sanity and the advice above may not apply for those builds. It also depends on your sideboard and how many horrendous cards you have for the matchup. Mill seems to play a lot of cards that are all or nothing in matchups (crypt incursion, ensnaring bridge, surgical, archive trap, jace's phantasm) so you won't always have enough cards to bring in and the Sanities will remain in your deck whether you like it or not.
Yeah, I'm not sold on Fraying Sanity at all. Spending T3 to cast it seems far too high a price to pay in a T4 format. I think it could work in UG mill running some form of mana ramp with a T1 Scout, elf or BoP, to get it out T2, then Orb and Crab T3 but that strikes me as the limit.
Out of all the games I've played with some form of mill deck at this point, I have never won a single game because of Fraying Sanity. As has been said, it just seems entirely too slow in the format.
Out of all the games I've played with some form of mill deck at this point, I have never won a single game because of Fraying Sanity. As has been said, it just seems entirely too slow in the format.
While I'm not a huge fan of Sanity and think that optimal count can easily be 2 or 3 (or 4), I definitely won some games because of it. If you play it (especially 4 copies) you have to keep in mind that its effect is small at start and big at finish (after 10 turns), so you better adjust your list to include some elements of control.
I AM a fan of Fraying Sanity. I play 4 of and wouldn't play less.
If sideboarding in several high CMC cards (Bridge/Sweepers/Crypt Incursion) I might trim 1, but I feel it's key for my deck.
The alternative for me is playing additional mill spells (Mind funeral likely), which has the bonus of not depending on the order you cast them (GLimpse + Funeral will likely mill a similar amount to Sanity + Glimpse), but every mill spell after that Sanity is strictly better.
One of the main reasons Sanity is so good is Field of Ruin and Archive Trap. I was playing 2 Sanity before Field of Ruin showed up, but now it is just too good. I would even love to tutor for Fraying Sanity, it is definitely my best t3 play.
There are too many decks that profit from a little milling, that's one of the key reasons Fraying Sanity is so good. I don't want to glimpse t2 and mind funeral t3, only to face a Gurmag Angler and Snap+Stub, or 4 Soul tokens, or some Vengevines.
That's where Fraying Sanity is KEY, since it enables a much more brutal milling. A trap and a mill spell are an almost guaranteed KO after Sanity. I find the matches without Sanity to be a lot harder, unless I guess an early Orb or 2, or am facing a combo/tron/valakut deck.
If you're playing a lot of "engines" like Crab/Scribe/Orb, I guess it is even better, since it can multiply those effects as well. The fact that multiples work perfectly with each other is what pushes the 4 copies.
t3 Sanity is exactly what lets us compete in a t4 format! What other play makes the double mill spell in t4 effective enough to get the win?
I am truly asking, what is it that you would rather do t3 instead of playing Fraying Sanity?
All of my t4 kills are with Fraying Sanity t3, and then t4 double mill spell, or, more frequently, Field of Ruin activation into Trap + other spell (merchant scroll for another trap, glimpse, breaking) or 2 Traps.
On another note, the "extract all their threats" plan seems terrible. Most decks play more than 3 or 4 threats, so it's just not realistic to think you can beat most decks like that. I can't believe somebody played a deck with that plan and had success against an open meta. Feels a lot more like one of those cool ideas that don't survive testing (Haunting Echoes I'm looking at you)
I haven't been playing a lot since MTGO latest update brought a bug where split cards can't be cast from under Shelldock Isle, and after having that happen twice I don't want to keep having to file for refunds. They said they're aware of the issue and should fix it soon, so hopefully I'll be back soon. I could try recording some matches in the Tournament Practice open area, but those are a coin toss, you get good players/decks and also very "random" ones.
I feel that videos of matches should be able to show each one's idea of the deck style better than words. I encourage everyone else to give that a try as well, I would love to see other people play their versions.
The fact that multiples work perfectly with each other is what pushes the 4 copies.
I cant agree. Suppose you draw 4 Glimpses. You are great. With 4 Sanities I'm not sure you even play third. Start milling after second Sanity and lose all value from third and fourth might be the best play.
You don't play 4 copies because you want to draw all 4 of that card. You play 4 copies if you don't mind drawing more than 1.
No one's plan is to just naturally draw the 4 copies of a card in their deck.
If you draw all 4 Mesmeric Orbs you won't play them all either, but I still want to see 1 or even 2 as consistently as possible.
I want to see as many traps as possible, so I play tutor effects to increase those odds.
I want to see at least 1 Field of Ruin, that's why I play 4.
Of course if I draw 4 Fields of Ruin, or 4 Fraying Sanity I won't be happy, but that will happen in 1 every hundreds (or thousands) of games, that's just how randomness works.
That weird game where you draw all 4 (and not in the initial 7, because you can mulligan that) is the cost you need to pay so that drawing 1 or 2 most of your games is the most frequent scenario.
Since this is somewhat related to "dead" cards, I've been considering replacing 1 Profane Memento or 1 Push with 1 Collective Brutality. It has plenty of targets for removal, it can allow us to see our opponent's hand if we need to plan a big turn against control, and it can drain a bit of life that can be relevant. Tossing up any extra lands or any other sub optimal cards in hand for value seems good (Push, Memento, your 3rd and 4th copy of Fraying Sanity or Orb! haha)
As for your question of what i would rather do on T3 than play Fraying Sanity... Cast Fatal Push so I don't die to a Kiln Fiend/ElectroMancer/Devoted Druid/Blighted Agent/etc... Or cast Crypt Incursion depending on the matchup. I don't hate Fraying Sanity it just doesn't shine in all the matchups we suck against. It forces you to play spells like Merchant Scroll so you can kill with a Trap on T4. If our opponents aren't killing us by T4/T5 then we are probably doing well in the game unless we were heavily disrupted etc...
You know what the best Fraying Sanity build would probably be... Just take the U/R Breach list and replace Breach and Emrakuls with Fraying Sanity and traumatize.
I don't think that's fair at all. Of course if you are at risk of dying you'll play your Fatal Push/Echoing Truth/Crypt Incursion/Bridge or whatever you need.
I was talking about a "goldfish" t3, otherwise it's just impossible to compare scenarios. And at least in my deck "style" we're not playing a control role, it's tempo. We just need to trip them once or twice to be able to get there and mill them out. That's why Memento is so good for me, those extra 5-10 life is all we need to get there.
Fraying Sanity is the extra gas we need, and specially useful to avoid keeping well stocked graveyards from early on, risking Delve/Snaps/Flashback spells/things coming back.
This was kind of what I was going for with the "style" discussion. I feel a lot of people play it more aggro, or more controlish, some other like me prefer a tempo role, I'm curious about it since it should make for very different decks.
You wouldn't have the fatal push or dismember or jace's phantasm or whatever interaction you could be playing that is better positioned against aggro decks. You would have Fraying Sanity.
it just goes back to the point that you have to build around the card and play stuff that allows you to tap out on turn 3 like profane memento and push etc...
Not playing any removal is way too risky, there's many creatures that can kill you without attacking, and having a few creatures makes them easy prey for removal. Fatal Push or Dismember are a need I think, I wouldn't only rely on having Jace's Phantasm around for blocking.
That's independent of playing Fraying Sanity or not I mean.
My question remains, how do you guys prefer to play your deck? Let's make it multiple choice for those who don't want to type much, any further explanations are welcome.
1. "Burn" style: You want to have as many mill cards as possible and cast a mill card every turn, and try to race the other deck. Your gameplay isn't really affected much by what the opponent's doing.
2. "Control" style: You play a lot of answers to their threats and try to stabilize in order to finish the milling. Maybe it's more removal, or removal + discard, sweepers maindeck, bridge, etc....
3. "Tempo" style: Similar to "Burn" style, but you have more cards in the maindeck to delay the opponent's kill. Profane Memento and Echoing Truth, Darkness, Remand for example.
As I said, I favor the Tempo style, but would love to hear other people who like other approaches.
I favor the control mode no creatures, and a little tempo for some matchups.
I think Fraying Sanity is unreal. So many matchups can go T1-Thoughtseize/Surgical, T2-Orb, T3-Fraying Sanity and leave you in an incredibly strong position.
I was just curious about when you take it out, never meant to imply it wasn't great. Thanks for all the feedback.
Not playing any removal is way too risky, there's many creatures that can kill you without attacking, and having a few creatures makes them easy prey for removal. Fatal Push or Dismember are a need I think, I wouldn't only rely on having Jace's Phantasm around for blocking.
That's independent of playing Fraying Sanity or not I mean.
My question remains, how do you guys prefer to play your deck? Let's make it multiple choice for those who don't want to type much, any further explanations are welcome.
1. "Burn" style: You want to have as many mill cards as possible and cast a mill card every turn, and try to race the other deck. Your gameplay isn't really affected much by what the opponent's doing.
2. "Control" style: You play a lot of answers to their threats and try to stabilize in order to finish the milling. Maybe it's more removal, or removal + discard, sweepers maindeck, bridge, etc....
3. "Tempo" style: Similar to "Burn" style, but you have more cards in the maindeck to delay the opponent's kill. Profane Memento and Echoing Truth, Darkness, Remand for example.
As I said, I favor the Tempo style, but would love to hear other people who like other approaches.
I'm with you on the tempo style, with the combo aspect of Field of Ruin and Traps in there. I think you're definitely onto something. I previously played more of a control style (AER Release GP), but found I got wrecked by fast creature decks.
What I don't particularly like is how there's just a few cards that absolutely hose us in the meta at the moment. Leyline, Blood Moon, and Emrakul all seem relatively abundant (ok, sure, not in the top deck, but in multiple other decks) and are pretty difficult to deal with on the whole. That's part of what I like about Fraying Sanity so much, is it gives us that one turn kill if we need it, or gives us the raw power to mill their deck twice in some cases (ie: Surgical on Emrakul, but shuffle trigger still goes). Without Fraying Sanity, that's basically an auto-loss. So the inevitability and speed it brings I think is really important, and I like 4 copies too. I think I'm about 8-1 when landing a Fraying Sanity in T3, 4, or 5.
Would love to get feedback from all on my build. Some of my sideboard choices are a little out of the ordinary, and I'd be happy to discuss them if you feel they are way off base. The Immolating Glares are currently still being tested, they could be Collective Brutality, Stony Silence, Damping Matrix, Ensnaring Bridge, Ceremonious Rejection, more Path and Push, Pithing Needle, etc. Could also cut 1 Solemnity for another slot of whatever...
I should mention the expected field for the tournament I'm prepping for tends to be a little heavier on aggro / creature based decks than the usual.
Very interesting indeed.
Shame you couldn't finish off Living End with all of that grave hate. With that deck and U/R Breach being by far the most represented Emrakul deck. Extirpate seems to have many matchups where it is preferred over surgical, especially out of the sideboard.
Yes, I definitely learned that lesson. Even one Extirpate would have changed the whole game. He had a sideboard that was tons of control, and I just had no way to deal with it.
On another topic, when do you guys board out Fraying Sanity? I'm all over the place with it.
Good point. How about 4 IOK and 4 Thoughtseize as well? A few Fatal Push, and we're set, right?
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
If sideboarding in several high CMC cards (Bridge/Sweepers/Crypt Incursion) I might trim 1, but I feel it's key for my deck.
The alternative for me is playing additional mill spells (Mind funeral likely), which has the bonus of not depending on the order you cast them (GLimpse + Funeral will likely mill a similar amount to Sanity + Glimpse), but every mill spell after that Sanity is strictly better.
One of the main reasons Sanity is so good is Field of Ruin and Archive Trap. I was playing 2 Sanity before Field of Ruin showed up, but now it is just too good. I would even love to tutor for Fraying Sanity, it is definitely my best t3 play.
There are too many decks that profit from a little milling, that's one of the key reasons Fraying Sanity is so good. I don't want to glimpse t2 and mind funeral t3, only to face a Gurmag Angler and Snap+Stub, or 4 Soul tokens, or some Vengevines.
That's where Fraying Sanity is KEY, since it enables a much more brutal milling. A trap and a mill spell are an almost guaranteed KO after Sanity. I find the matches without Sanity to be a lot harder, unless I guess an early Orb or 2, or am facing a combo/tron/valakut deck.
If you're playing a lot of "engines" like Crab/Scribe/Orb, I guess it is even better, since it can multiply those effects as well. The fact that multiples work perfectly with each other is what pushes the 4 copies.
t3 Sanity is exactly what lets us compete in a t4 format! What other play makes the double mill spell in t4 effective enough to get the win?
I am truly asking, what is it that you would rather do t3 instead of playing Fraying Sanity?
All of my t4 kills are with Fraying Sanity t3, and then t4 double mill spell, or, more frequently, Field of Ruin activation into Trap + other spell (merchant scroll for another trap, glimpse, breaking) or 2 Traps.
On another note, the "extract all their threats" plan seems terrible. Most decks play more than 3 or 4 threats, so it's just not realistic to think you can beat most decks like that. I can't believe somebody played a deck with that plan and had success against an open meta. Feels a lot more like one of those cool ideas that don't survive testing (Haunting Echoes I'm looking at you)
I haven't been playing a lot since MTGO latest update brought a bug where split cards can't be cast from under Shelldock Isle, and after having that happen twice I don't want to keep having to file for refunds. They said they're aware of the issue and should fix it soon, so hopefully I'll be back soon. I could try recording some matches in the Tournament Practice open area, but those are a coin toss, you get good players/decks and also very "random" ones.
I feel that videos of matches should be able to show each one's idea of the deck style better than words. I encourage everyone else to give that a try as well, I would love to see other people play their versions.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
No one's plan is to just naturally draw the 4 copies of a card in their deck.
If you draw all 4 Mesmeric Orbs you won't play them all either, but I still want to see 1 or even 2 as consistently as possible.
I want to see as many traps as possible, so I play tutor effects to increase those odds.
I want to see at least 1 Field of Ruin, that's why I play 4.
Of course if I draw 4 Fields of Ruin, or 4 Fraying Sanity I won't be happy, but that will happen in 1 every hundreds (or thousands) of games, that's just how randomness works.
That weird game where you draw all 4 (and not in the initial 7, because you can mulligan that) is the cost you need to pay so that drawing 1 or 2 most of your games is the most frequent scenario.
Since this is somewhat related to "dead" cards, I've been considering replacing 1 Profane Memento or 1 Push with 1 Collective Brutality. It has plenty of targets for removal, it can allow us to see our opponent's hand if we need to plan a big turn against control, and it can drain a bit of life that can be relevant. Tossing up any extra lands or any other sub optimal cards in hand for value seems good (Push, Memento, your 3rd and 4th copy of Fraying Sanity or Orb! haha)
You know what the best Fraying Sanity build would probably be... Just take the U/R Breach list and replace Breach and Emrakuls with Fraying Sanity and traumatize.
I was talking about a "goldfish" t3, otherwise it's just impossible to compare scenarios. And at least in my deck "style" we're not playing a control role, it's tempo. We just need to trip them once or twice to be able to get there and mill them out. That's why Memento is so good for me, those extra 5-10 life is all we need to get there.
Fraying Sanity is the extra gas we need, and specially useful to avoid keeping well stocked graveyards from early on, risking Delve/Snaps/Flashback spells/things coming back.
This was kind of what I was going for with the "style" discussion. I feel a lot of people play it more aggro, or more controlish, some other like me prefer a tempo role, I'm curious about it since it should make for very different decks.
it just goes back to the point that you have to build around the card and play stuff that allows you to tap out on turn 3 like profane memento and push etc...
That's independent of playing Fraying Sanity or not I mean.
My question remains, how do you guys prefer to play your deck? Let's make it multiple choice for those who don't want to type much, any further explanations are welcome.
1. "Burn" style: You want to have as many mill cards as possible and cast a mill card every turn, and try to race the other deck. Your gameplay isn't really affected much by what the opponent's doing.
2. "Control" style: You play a lot of answers to their threats and try to stabilize in order to finish the milling. Maybe it's more removal, or removal + discard, sweepers maindeck, bridge, etc....
3. "Tempo" style: Similar to "Burn" style, but you have more cards in the maindeck to delay the opponent's kill. Profane Memento and Echoing Truth, Darkness, Remand for example.
As I said, I favor the Tempo style, but would love to hear other people who like other approaches.
I think Fraying Sanity is unreal. So many matchups can go T1-Thoughtseize/Surgical, T2-Orb, T3-Fraying Sanity and leave you in an incredibly strong position.
I was just curious about when you take it out, never meant to imply it wasn't great. Thanks for all the feedback.
I'm with you on the tempo style, with the combo aspect of Field of Ruin and Traps in there. I think you're definitely onto something. I previously played more of a control style (AER Release GP), but found I got wrecked by fast creature decks.
What I don't particularly like is how there's just a few cards that absolutely hose us in the meta at the moment. Leyline, Blood Moon, and Emrakul all seem relatively abundant (ok, sure, not in the top deck, but in multiple other decks) and are pretty difficult to deal with on the whole. That's part of what I like about Fraying Sanity so much, is it gives us that one turn kill if we need it, or gives us the raw power to mill their deck twice in some cases (ie: Surgical on Emrakul, but shuffle trigger still goes). Without Fraying Sanity, that's basically an auto-loss. So the inevitability and speed it brings I think is really important, and I like 4 copies too. I think I'm about 8-1 when landing a Fraying Sanity in T3, 4, or 5.
3x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Island
1x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
Artifact (4)
4x Mesmeric Orb
4x Archive Trap
3x Crypt Incursion
3x Fatal Push
3x Path to Exile
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Trapmaker's Snare
3x Visions of Beyond
Sorcery (7)
1x Breaking / Entering
2x Damnation
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
Creature (4)
4x Hedron Crab
4x Fraying Sanity
1x Echoing Truth
3x Fragmentize
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Immolating Glare
1x Ravenous Trap
3x Solemnity
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Torpor Orb
Would love to get feedback from all on my build. Some of my sideboard choices are a little out of the ordinary, and I'd be happy to discuss them if you feel they are way off base. The Immolating Glares are currently still being tested, they could be Collective Brutality, Stony Silence, Damping Matrix, Ensnaring Bridge, Ceremonious Rejection, more Path and Push, Pithing Needle, etc. Could also cut 1 Solemnity for another slot of whatever...
I should mention the expected field for the tournament I'm prepping for tends to be a little heavier on aggro / creature based decks than the usual.