Dismember is probably better, just wanted to make you aware there were cards specific to black threats without the 4 life penatly.
Memento is an absolute house against Affinity, confirmed. I've actually been playing Damnation maindeck and it has been great. Everyone's default plan against mill is to race and just flood the board. Nobody ever plays around Damnation. I've been playing 23 lands though so there is definitely deck building restrictions to play the card but it has been amazing in this Humans/go wide infested meta. Other random things I've noticed.... I think fetchlands 5-8 should all be Marsh flats or some other fetch that can get basic swamp (UB builds). With Oboro and Shelldock and playing 1 extra island than swamp I find myself always wanting basic swamp and it's frustrating to shock with your flooded strand. I think a 1x Sunken Ruins is very good and by far the best non basic land you can play after your 2-3 Watery Graves. Darkslick Shores coming in tapped is a huge pain not allowing you to cast double spell or Trap if it's your 5th land and Drowned Catacomb is very bad early game if you draw it with Shelldock Isle or some other non basic land in your opening 7, especially Shelldock Isle. The only case time you get burned with Sunken Ruin is if your draw it with your GQ/Field of Ruin and you weren't going to be able to cast Glimpse with either of those anyway.
I just noticed you don't play any Ravenous Trap sideboard. So much synergy with Trapmaker's Snare!
Also... Not sure if anyone else has seen them but on youtube if you type "Fraying Sanity Mill" mtgforge did a bunch of matchups with the deck. His mana base is not good (flooded strand instead of polluted delta, etc...) and he doesn't always make what I believe to be the optimal play but he basically wrecks the entire meta game with his deck outside of infect/burn/affinity. Anyone who has ever wondered why mill plays Jace's Phantasm should watch all of those matches and see the power of Phantasm and how it just wins games by itself. It also shows the power of Fraying Sanity if for some reason you haven't read the last 5 or so pages of this thread. And lastly it's just a bunch of videos of mill just wrecking the modern format, very enjoyable.
Haha, yes, I've seen the MTGForge videos, my god those sounds in the beginning were annoying!
The guy makes A LOT of mistakes, but has videos beating a lot of different decks. My concern was cherry picking, if I remember correctly it wasn't a league where you saw all matches, but isolated matches. Let me know if I'm wrong, I saw them a month or two ago I think.
We can probably not pay the full 4 life for dismember if we need to save life, we are playing black after all, haha. Same as surgical, phyrexian mana is just a nice option to have.
I don't like Ravenous Trap because it has failed me before because I couldn't cast it for free when I needed it, and the Nihil Spellbombs have been doing the job nicely for me. I can totally see the sinergy, and with Crabs you can keep an uncracked fetch to force the free trigger, but without Crabs or Thoughtscour I really depend on having an Orb out, and at that point I prefer the Spellbomb which usually even draws me a card (can even use it as a bad cantrip at desperate times).
The color of the Fetchlands is definitely one of the subtleties of playing the deck. It is a classic beginner mistake to play polluted delta and fetch an island, and then be stuck with flooded strand and having to fetch and shock. It is definitely something to keep in mind when setting up the mana base each game. I have barely needed to shock myself since playing UB and Fields of Ruin, and usually fetch for basics.
I'm pretty happy with the mana base, would love to find room for an Ipnu Rivulet for a bit more reach, or Geier Reach Sanitarium, or other land to force an opponent to draw (and discard for Fraying Sanity). 1 Urborg could be an addition as well. At this point, I'm still in the "if it's not broken don't fix it" stage, haha, but there are definitely some interesting options on the mana base.
Another card I noticed lately and think I might give a try is Shriekhorn. It is a 1 drop which we kind of lack, some of the milling can be doubled by Sanity later on... Keep an eye out on how often Crabs die to removal before yielding more than 6 cards. I'm really torn cutting Crab since double Crabs or with Sanity out is crazy, but realized it led me to bad keeps when they would just die and I would be way behind in the race.
With no creatures, I'm getting card advantage almost every single game, and only have to worry about discard spells when considering my initial 7.
I'm going to give a mono U mill list a try just for fun. A lot of nice tools on the Land side, and the double trap + sanity with field of ruin is still valid... I don't expect it to be anywhere as good as UB, but it will be fun, haha
I tend to agree with the cherry picking comment but he would point out at the beginning of the match if he was a huge dog or a solid favorite and also in the final deck review he goes over the bad matchups. He talked about a horrible burn matchup but the match we saw he drew 2 of his 3 sun droplets to win so yea probably some cherry picking and definitely a higher sample size of games. BUT... He also said he had like an 80% win rate, which is crazy. Yea you heard me, he said he was winning 80% of his matches.... Even if he's lying how much worse could it be? I guess I could imaginie a 70% win rate as being 80% but certainly not a 50-55% etc... His list was basically 4x of every good mill spell and fraying sanity with some Phantasms, visions, bridges, and crypts.
I think he was playing 1 on 1s and not competitive leagues too where the drop off in play is considerable. Infect missed an attack step by accident and that would have been lethal and the terrible storm deck that couldn't goldfish a kill by turn 6 was just weird (that match felt cherry picked). The storm matchup is definitely not that easy and you normally need Surgical Extraction G1 to win and sideboard grave hate to compete. Also, the online meta game does not have much Devoted Druid combo because it's super annoying to loop the combo but in paper the deck is a lot more popular and that matchup can be anywhere from kinda bad but winnable to nearly unwinnable based on your build. He also didn't show any matches against merfolk, death and taxes, or elves but said the matchup was hard which makes sense when you play zero removal. Other than that though... he kind of just beat everything else with a bad mana base and some dubious lines or just misclicks.
The list obviously isn't 80% due to level of competition etc... but it wasn't bad either.
Copied from reddit so more people can give their opinion!
I'll attempt a "summary" of UB mill status these days (warning of possible huuuge post!):
I'd say this is the undisputable core of the deck:
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Fraying Sanity (4 for me, I think most people play less than 4 though, but definitely some number belong in here)
Then some number of the following cards are in almost every list:
Crypt Incursion
Breaking//Entering
Fatal Push
Surgical Extraction
The following cards have different synergies amongst them, and can probably be "packed" together in multiple ways:
**Disruption**
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Collective Brutality
Dismember
The trick is to pick the right ones for the game plan you like.
In my opinion, I think the best impression we can make is of a tempoish Burn deck.
While we're not as consistent as Burn, we do get some advantage by playing a different game, and should use that and a few cards for the small tempo needed to finish them. So I prefer cards that are cheap and can be cast without costing us time when possible (that made me play Profane Memento's main).
Running it full control seems a waste to me, at that point, just kill them with man lands and save a lot of deckspace to make the control part better.
Pure mill spells thrown at their face can get there some times, but creatures are crazy these days and we enable some huge hitters like Gurmag/Tasigur, giant Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the reliquary, etc...
Racing those can get very tricky, on top of just faster combo decks like Storm and Abzan Company, or Infect, and pesky hatebears or Eidolons who can wreck us. So some interaction is needed I think.
Sideboard cards:
Set Adrift
Echoing Truth
Ravenous Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Nihil Spellbomb
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Extirpate
Ratchet Bomb
And some of the cards listed above
I do not recommend "transformational" sideboards. I've tried them for a while because they're fun (bringing in Jace's Phantasm and Wight of Precint Six, or Lab Maniac and Unburial Rites in my Esper version and mill ourselves), but they're just not reliable in my experience.
We need something to wipe graveyards, for Storm/Dredge/Snapcaster/Emrakul decks, something to deal with enchantments/artifacts/planeswalkers, and then some combination of lifegain/sweepers. Extra extraction effects are pretty popular as well since they can win us matches for almost free (t0 Archive trap and surgical IS a thing and wrecks decks)
Finally, land base:
Field of Ruin (I STRONGLY suggest 4 of)
Shelldock Isle (2 is the number for me)
Watery Graves (3 for me)
Fetches to trigger revolt, add some if you run Crabs (I run 6)
Swamps
Islands
Oboro if you run Crab
Honorable Land mentions for Ipnu's Rivulet and Geier Reach Sanitarium or Mikokoro, I would love to play them but I don't think we can.
Sunken Hollow/Drowned Catacomb can work as well, Darkslick Shores entering tapped as the 4th land makes me not want it, that is a key land drop for double mill spell.
I run 21 lands, maybe 22 is better? Getting that 4th land screwed me a couple of times, I think I will cut 1 Breaking for 1 Ipnu's rivulet and try that.
Any cards you feel are worth playing or testing and I missed?
The trick is to pick the right ones for the game plan you like.
In my opinion, I think the best impression we can make is of a tempoish Burn deck.
While we're not as consistent as Burn, we do get some advantage by playing a different game, and should use that and a few cards for the small tempo needed to finish them. So I prefer cards that are cheap and can be cast without costing us time when possible (that made me play Profane Memento's main).
Running it full control seems a waste to me, at that point, just kill them with man lands and save a lot of deckspace to make the control part better.
Pure mill spells thrown at their face can get there some times, but creatures are crazy these days and we enable some huge hitters like Gurmag/Tasigur, giant Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the reliquary, etc...
Racing those can get very tricky, on top of just faster combo decks like Storm and Abzan Company, or Infect, and pesky hatebears or Eidolons who can wreck us. So some interaction is needed I think.
Sideboard cards:
Set Adrift
Echoing Truth
Ravenous Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Nihil Spellbomb
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Extirpate
Ratchet Bomb
And some of the cards listed above
I do not recommend "transformational" sideboards. I've tried them for a while because they're fun (bringing in Jace's Phantasm and Wight of Precint Six, or Lab Maniac and Unburial Rites in my Esper version and mill ourselves), but they're just not reliable in my experience.
We need something to wipe graveyards, for Storm/Dredge/Snapcaster/Emrakul decks, something to deal with enchantments/artifacts/planeswalkers, and then some combination of lifegain/sweepers. Extra extraction effects are pretty popular as well since they can win us matches for almost free (t0 Archive trap and surgical IS a thing and wrecks decks)
Finally, land base:
Field of Ruin (I STRONGLY suggest 4 of)
Shelldock Isle (2 is the number for me)
Watery Graves (3 for me)
Fetches to trigger revolt, add some if you run Crabs (I run 6)
Swamps
Islands
Oboro if you run Crab
Honorable Land mentions for Ipnu's Rivulet and Geier Reach Sanitarium or Mikokoro, I would love to play them but I don't think we can.
Sunken Hollow/Drowned Catacomb can work as well, Darkslick Shores entering tapped as the 4th land makes me not want it, that is a key land drop for double mill spell.
I run 21 lands, maybe 22 is better? Getting that 4th land screwed me a couple of times, I think I will cut 1 Breaking for 1 Ipnu's rivulet and try that.
Any cards you feel are worth playing or testing and I missed?
EDIT: Format
You don't mention fraying sanity at all. Any specific reason? I would put it in the core section so it surprised me to not see it.
You don't mention fraying sanity at all. Any specific reason? I would put it in the core section so it surprised me to not see it.
Oops, completely missed that, haha.
Definitely, Fraying Sanity is a 100% core part in my eyes.
Started playing 2, up to 3, and now I play the full 4. I really want to cast 1 turn 3, and drawing a second one is far from bad, especially if you have an Orb out, or if you play other "engines".
As a brief update comment, I can say after several games I recommend Profane Memento maindeck. It buys a ton of time, to the point where I had several opponents target it first with their artifact removal or discard g2, even before Orbs or Fraying Sanity.
Since I'm playing Memento maindeck, moving the crypt incursions to the side and maindecking echoing truths has also worked nicely. Saved me once against a maindeck leyline opponent, and has usually had at least a decent target in a planeswalker (like that **** Gideon of the trials), or a bunch of tokens, or even just bouncing their play for the turn.
@Quartz
Any comments on the move back to damnation over expertise?
Also, I was curious on your line of play. If you have a fraying sanity in hand and an archive trap, will you wait to cast it even if they turn 1 fetch? I know there are some arguments for both depending on the opponent, but what would sway you either way?
@Quartz
Any comments on the move back to damnation over expertise?
Also, I was curious on your line of play. If you have a fraying sanity in hand and an archive trap, will you wait to cast it even if they turn 1 fetch? I know there are some arguments for both depending on the opponent, but what would sway you either way?
Not really, I've barely cast either one, and off the top of my head I remember two times when the difference was really relevant, one time that expertise was awesome playing a fraying sanity off of it, and one time when a couple humans survived since they had already grown too much. So I would still recommend either one. Bontu's no untapping was bad, I don't want to try that again, haha.
Regarding casting trap or holding it, it depends on the matchup, as you said. If my opponent is playing anything where he cares about his graveyard, I will hold it (Storm, Dredge, Vengevine decks, decks with delve creatures, etc...).
Having surgical in your hand also plays a big role. I will go for it against storm if I have surgical in hand, same with Living end or Ad Nauseaum.
I will definitely go for it against Tron, Titanshift, fast creature decks if I have a Memento in play, or decks that might play Leonin Arbiter or Blood Moon.
Then again, a lot of times you just can't tell. Then the contents of the rest of your hand are the factors to take into account.
If I have a Glimpse or Breaking in hand and a Visions of Beyond I will also probably cast 1 trap, since then I can then reach those 20 cards for Ancestral Recall.
If I have Field of Ruin in hand, I will tend to not cast it. I will try to get a Fraying Sanity down and then 1 shot them. They really don't expect that line of play even if they see your hand, they usually will take Glimpse or Orb instead of Sanity (trap is safe from inquisition, and anyway they don't usually take it unless they have a bunch of fetches in hand).
Of course, if you see a Blood moon coming, or a Leonin Arbiter, or he doesn't play many non basics, you should probably cast them.
New possible card change!
I think I will change the Trapmaker snare's for Merchant Scroll.
I don't care that much about losing the instant I think since I'm not playing remands/mana leak, and it will give me the flexibility of fetching "Ancestral Recall" and getting the final cards I need, or Echoing Truth to get rid of a Leyline or Gideon or Tokens from empty the warrens or lingering souls, on top of the obvious Traps.
I really think it will be a nice addition (specially since I don't play Ravenous traps, so I don't lose any value there, only the instant/sorcery speed)
Weakest cards were by far the TrapMakers Snares and yahenni's expertise. I wanted it to be damnation every match. And snare is just not consistent enough.
Profane Memento main was excellent! I almost want to cut cryptic from the board because the PM does such a good job without increasing my cu4ve when I'm trying to drop a bridge.
Speaking of bridge, I sided all 3 in in every match except 1. It was excellent.
Matchups:
GW collected company value (2-1 1-0 matches)
Won game 1 off of mesmeric orb and Memento. Game 2 he had a perfect curve on the play and I couldn't catch up. Game 3 he couldn't find his 3rd land after mulliganing twice, and I took 2 Knights of the Reliquary out of his hand with a surgical.
Titanshift (2-0 2-0 matches)
I had the perfect opener of 2 archive trap 2 glimpse a surgical and 2 lands. Milled him for 36 by turn 2 and got to surgical his valakut. He scooped. Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 trying to find layline and kept a hand with no green mana. This match was over quick.
Counters Company (2-0 3-0 matches)
Profane Memento was excellent again here. Game 1 I got to extract the visir off of a turn 2 glimpse to force him into a fair gameplan. Game 2 I sided in pithing needles and named druid after he played it turn 2 and he never found an answer to that or the bridge. He was still able to attack under the bridge with Nobel Hierarch but a crypt incursion for a ton got a concession.
Eldrazi Tron (1-2 3-1 matches)
Played against the, hands down, best player in the room here. Should have won game 1 because I Milled 40+ cards by turn 4 but drew 7 lands in a row off of a visions, push on a thoughtknot, and three draws. Game 2 was really close, but mesmeric orb and bridge got there. Game 3 was also close, but after getting to set adrift his smasher which was his last threat, he top decked another that I found no answer to.
Eldrazi Tron (2-1 4-1 matches)
Close like above, but he mulled to 5 game 3 and didn't really put up a fight. Mesmeric orb is so good in this matchup.
Nice result daedalus! You should post your current decklist as a reference.
Are you playing the 4 Field of Ruin or just 2? I was just wondering what made the snares so underwhelming for you, and without 4 Field of Ruin I can definitely see them being bad. We never leave open mana, so if we need them available when they fetch they won't work well.
That being said, I barely played this weekend, but merchant scroll worked a lot nicer (I switched Crypt Incursion to the sideboard and maindecked Echoing Truths, so that's another target for it). Getting to tutor for an ancestral recall or an answer to leyline/blood moon/tokens/planeswalkers is very good, as well as working as a Snare when we're on track for the kill.
I still hold that the wide range of matchups you might end up against make Modern very difficult to predict, and luck in the matchups is a bigger factor than it ever was before.
From the list jay2rockusa posted from the SCG event, I didn't like the lone 4 Crabs, since I thought they're "wasting" a lot of card advantage enabling all creature removal, for some amount of milling that could've been done with other non-creature cards.
Then again, I checked MTGGoldfish for the current meta data, and to my surprise, Path/Push are not as omnipresent as they were a little while ago.
Off of mtggoldfish meta, the top 10 decks play this many dead cards if you go creatureless:
Jeskai 4
Storm 0
5c Humans 3
Tron 3
Affinity 0
Burn 4
Grixis DS 6
Eldrazi Tron 4
Abzan Company 0
Eldrazi Taxes 4
So it might not be such a bad time for Crabs. When Grixis DS was everywhere, going creatureless was an incredible advantage.
There's obviously a ton more removal in the form of burn spells, but since those can go to our face otherwise, the only one we really save is Searing Blaze (Anger of the Gods was not in any maindeck).
While I have the tabs open, this is the number of creatures those decks run (for profane memento evaluation):
Jeskai 11
Storm 6
5c Humans 37
Tron 6
Affinity 26
Burn 14
Grixis DS 16
Eldrazi Tron 20
Abzan Company 30
Eldrazi Taxes 28
Definitely seems good in a lot of matchups, just as we saw. Let's say we mill half of their deck before being in trouble with the life total, we have a nice buffer in most matches. I would only board them out against Storm/Tron, so they seem to deserve the maindeck spot.
EDIT: Found out the player of that list that made 14th place is the streamer I talked about a little while ago, RedSunKnight. This confirms to me what I said about the lottery, I've skimmed through most of the streams he has done in the last couple of months, and he managed 1 5-0 competitive league finish, some 4-1s, a ton of 3-2 and 2-3, and lately he was very frequently 0-3 DROP, he even started grinding friendly leagues and was struggling there to go higher than 3-2.
I'm not saying this to reduce the value of the deck or him as a player at all, but to highlight how a deck can both struggle frequently and suddenly find success in current Modern's environment.
Nice result daedalus! You should post your current decklist as a reference.
Are you playing the 4 Field of Ruin or just 2? I was just wondering what made the snares so underwhelming for you, and without 4 Field of Ruin I can definitely see them being bad. We never leave open mana, so if we need them available when they fetch they won't work well.
That being said, I barely played this weekend, but merchant scroll worked a lot nicer (I switched Crypt Incursion to the sideboard and maindecked Echoing Truths, so that's another target for it). Getting to tutor for an ancestral recall or an answer to leyline/blood moon/tokens/planeswalkers is very good, as well as working as a Snare when we're on track for the kill.
I still hold that the wide range of matchups you might end up against make Modern very difficult to predict, and luck in the matchups is a bigger factor than it ever was before.
From the list jay2rockusa posted from the SCG event, I didn't like the lone 4 Crabs, since I thought they're "wasting" a lot of card advantage enabling all creature removal, for some amount of milling that could've been done with other non-creature cards.
Then again, I checked MTGGoldfish for the current meta data, and to my surprise, Path/Push are not as omnipresent as they were a little while ago.
Off of mtggoldfish meta, the top 10 decks play this many dead cards if you go creatureless:
Jeskai 4
Storm 0
5c Humans 3
Tron 3
Affinity 0
Burn 4
Grixis DS 6
Eldrazi Tron 4
Abzan Company 0
Eldrazi Taxes 4
So it might not be such a bad time for Crabs. When Grixis DS was everywhere, going creatureless was an incredible advantage.
There's obviously a ton more removal in the form of burn spells, but since those can go to our face otherwise, the only one we really save is Searing Blaze (Anger of the Gods was not in any maindeck).
While I have the tabs open, this is the number of creatures those decks run (for profane memento evaluation):
Jeskai 11
Storm 6
5c Humans 37
Tron 6
Affinity 26
Burn 14
Grixis DS 16
Eldrazi Tron 20
Abzan Company 30
Eldrazi Taxes 28
Definitely seems good in a lot of matchups, just as we saw. Let's say we mill half of their deck before being in trouble with the life total, we have a nice buffer in most matches. I would only board them out against Storm/Tron, so they seem to deserve the maindeck spot.
EDIT: Found out the player of that list that made 14th place is the streamer I talked about a little while ago, RedSunKnight. This confirms to me what I said about the lottery, I've skimmed through most of the streams he has done in the last couple of months, and he managed 1 5-0 competitive league finish, some 4-1s, a ton of 3-2 and 2-3, and lately he was very frequently 0-3 DROP, he even started grinding friendly leagues and was struggling there to go higher than 3-2.
I'm not saying this to reduce the value of the deck or him as a player at all, but to highlight how a deck can both struggle frequently and suddenly find success in current Modern's environment.
I played the 4 fields. With 4 untapped mana you can use the field with enough mana for the snare, but it's like paying 4 mana for a mill 13. We can instead play 2 2cmc mill spells to get our hand size down for bridge or play an actual 4 cmc mill 13 spell. That being startled awake. I've taken out the 3 snares for 2 more breaking, and 1 startled awake.
I'll get my list up as soon as I can. It is really similar to your list. With these differences.
22 lands
-2 Echoing Truth
-3 merchant scroll
+1 breaking
+2 mind funeral
+1 startled awake
Sideboard is the same.
I haven't played a ton of matches with this list, but I already like it more than snare.
By the way, Profane Memento main makes this deck playable in my opinion. It has given me enough time to mill my opponent several times. Thanks for that contribution. It has been doing so well that I'm really close to taking crypt incursion out of the side. I may replace it with 2 dismembers for the e-tron matchup. Reality smasher is a beating..
Hey Mill players! Short time lurker, got brought in by Quartz's well-written Reddit post and the excitement over Fraying Sanity to finally give this a build. I've already got my traps and orbs and shelldock (good foresight by 2-years-ago me who knew I'd build mill if Glimpse would drop in price).
Few quick questions:
How important is the "all with the same name" clause on Echoing Truth? Because Winds of Rebuke would be a blast to play 4 of.
Given that I'm playing 4 Profane Memento, is Fatal Push straight up necessary to survive aggression? Or could I skate by with 4 copies of Echoing Truth/Winds? I am reluctant to decrease mill spell density for anything if I can help it.
Lastly, Compelling Argument I don't find anywhere discussed for modern. Is 5 cards just too few for a mill spell to nab, even with cycling?
Nice to see Profane Memento is working for you! I have been loving it as well, it buys a lot of time. And opponents hate it, it is frequently the first target of discard/removal g2.
Regarding trap, I wouldn't play it like you said. If I don't have another trap in hand, t4 I would cast a 2 CMC mill spell, and then I would cast snare EOT and get the archive trap. Then t5 activate field of ruin, cast trap for free and cast another 2 or 3 mill spell/sanity and hopefully win.
I try to not activate Field of Ruin prematurely, since I have 7 ways of drawing traps, and I've drawed the trap the turn after I used field of ruin too many times, haha. Or Fraying Sanity... so I try to see what I will be doing the following turns as well before activating it. If I have Visions of Beyond, I would probably go for it since I can expect some more gas. Or if I need lifegain from Memento desperately. If I have push and other mill spells, I would play those and hold push, and wait for an extra trap or fraying sanity to combo.
I moved Crypt Incursion to the sideboard after maindecking Memento. Crypt is very powerful, just as Bridge is, but I find we don't need that much against most matchups, and some lifegain from memento and tempo from Echoing Truth is enough to win. Plus, Merchant Scroll being able to tutor up the Echoing Truths and Visions of Beyond has been very nice for flexibility, providing virtual additional copies of those spells.
Dismember is more and more tempting each day, it really feels correct. Not sure what to cut though, it's similar to what happens to me with discard. That's what I was refering to when I said there are multiple combinations of those utility cards that can work better/worse depending on the matchups and personal play style I guess.
LadenniferJadaniston, you can try cutting push, I've gonne without removal for a while. I don't think I would recommend it, since there are a ton of creatures that hit hard and will put a lot of pressure on you, plus Thalias, Arbiters, Devoted Druids, Goblin electromancers, etc... You will almost always find a target for them. There are plenty of budget options that work just fine probably in case that's an issue, Dismember being number one, haha.
I love the all with the same name from Echoing Truth more than the small mill or Rebuke. It deals with lingering souls/empty the warrens tokens, multiple leylines, multiple thalias, multiple shadows/goyfs/anglers. I would 100% choose Echoing Truth over Winds.
Compelling Argument is something you can try, the cycling can help. Otherwise, we can do a lot better than that for 2 mana.
I prefer Dream twist as far as smaller/instant U mill spells go, since you can cast it from the graveyard if you mill it with orb, and it can fill the curve if you lack any play. Still, I don't play it, I think they would only be worth it in a mono U version, with counter magic and playing almost everything at instant speed.
Disclaimer: I have never played it, so it's all just thoughts.
We should never expect to re use it, that's for sure.
Then it's mill 13 for 2UU, which is a bit cheaper than a hard cast archive trap, but hard cast archive traps are not good, and this is a sorcery! If it was an instant, at least it would help get out of Academy Ruins locks and things like that (that's why I have some consideration about Dream twist and Thought Scour)
I don't really feel tempted to play it.
If your meta is allowing Crabs to survive, Jace Vryn's Prodigy could be nice for graveyard recursion. When I tested him he just kept getting killed before even flipping, it was very annoying.
Tapped out user Peisistratos wrote a very detailed primer on tappedout.net that covers a lot of card decisions, it might be worth looking at. I think the final decklist is somewhat inferior to what's been listed here, but there are some interesting points. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/competitive-modern-mill-2
Tapped out user Peisistratos wrote a very detailed primer on tappedout.net that covers a lot of card decisions, it might be worth looking at. I think the final decklist is somewhat inferior to what's been listed here, but there are some interesting points. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/competitive-modern-mill-2
He chimes in here every once in awhile to tell us that he's right and we're all wrong without actually having played many games.
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Haha, yes, I've seen the MTGForge videos, my god those sounds in the beginning were annoying!
The guy makes A LOT of mistakes, but has videos beating a lot of different decks. My concern was cherry picking, if I remember correctly it wasn't a league where you saw all matches, but isolated matches. Let me know if I'm wrong, I saw them a month or two ago I think.
We can probably not pay the full 4 life for dismember if we need to save life, we are playing black after all, haha. Same as surgical, phyrexian mana is just a nice option to have.
I don't like Ravenous Trap because it has failed me before because I couldn't cast it for free when I needed it, and the Nihil Spellbombs have been doing the job nicely for me. I can totally see the sinergy, and with Crabs you can keep an uncracked fetch to force the free trigger, but without Crabs or Thoughtscour I really depend on having an Orb out, and at that point I prefer the Spellbomb which usually even draws me a card (can even use it as a bad cantrip at desperate times).
The color of the Fetchlands is definitely one of the subtleties of playing the deck. It is a classic beginner mistake to play polluted delta and fetch an island, and then be stuck with flooded strand and having to fetch and shock. It is definitely something to keep in mind when setting up the mana base each game. I have barely needed to shock myself since playing UB and Fields of Ruin, and usually fetch for basics.
I'm pretty happy with the mana base, would love to find room for an Ipnu Rivulet for a bit more reach, or Geier Reach Sanitarium, or other land to force an opponent to draw (and discard for Fraying Sanity). 1 Urborg could be an addition as well. At this point, I'm still in the "if it's not broken don't fix it" stage, haha, but there are definitely some interesting options on the mana base.
Another card I noticed lately and think I might give a try is Shriekhorn. It is a 1 drop which we kind of lack, some of the milling can be doubled by Sanity later on... Keep an eye out on how often Crabs die to removal before yielding more than 6 cards. I'm really torn cutting Crab since double Crabs or with Sanity out is crazy, but realized it led me to bad keeps when they would just die and I would be way behind in the race.
With no creatures, I'm getting card advantage almost every single game, and only have to worry about discard spells when considering my initial 7.
I'm going to give a mono U mill list a try just for fun. A lot of nice tools on the Land side, and the double trap + sanity with field of ruin is still valid... I don't expect it to be anywhere as good as UB, but it will be fun, haha
I think he was playing 1 on 1s and not competitive leagues too where the drop off in play is considerable. Infect missed an attack step by accident and that would have been lethal and the terrible storm deck that couldn't goldfish a kill by turn 6 was just weird (that match felt cherry picked). The storm matchup is definitely not that easy and you normally need Surgical Extraction G1 to win and sideboard grave hate to compete. Also, the online meta game does not have much Devoted Druid combo because it's super annoying to loop the combo but in paper the deck is a lot more popular and that matchup can be anywhere from kinda bad but winnable to nearly unwinnable based on your build. He also didn't show any matches against merfolk, death and taxes, or elves but said the matchup was hard which makes sense when you play zero removal. Other than that though... he kind of just beat everything else with a bad mana base and some dubious lines or just misclicks.
The list obviously isn't 80% due to level of competition etc... but it wasn't bad either.
I'll attempt a "summary" of UB mill status these days (warning of possible huuuge post!):
I'd say this is the undisputable core of the deck:
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Fraying Sanity (4 for me, I think most people play less than 4 though, but definitely some number belong in here)
Then some number of the following cards are in almost every list:
Crypt Incursion
Breaking//Entering
Fatal Push
Surgical Extraction
The following cards have different synergies amongst them, and can probably be "packed" together in multiple ways:
**Disruption**
Inquisition of Kozilek
Thoughtseize
Collective Brutality
Dismember
Remand
Mana Leak
Logic Knot
**Milling**
Hedron Crab
Manic Scribe
Jace's Phantasm
Snapcaster Mage
Trapmaker's Snare
Dream Twist
Tome Scour
Thought Scour
Mind Funeral
Shriekhorn
**Lifegain/sweepers**
Profane Memento
Ensnaring Bridge
Darkness
Damnation
Flaying Tendrils
Yahenni's Expertise
Bontu's Last reckoning
The trick is to pick the right ones for the game plan you like.
In my opinion, I think the best impression we can make is of a tempoish Burn deck.
While we're not as consistent as Burn, we do get some advantage by playing a different game, and should use that and a few cards for the small tempo needed to finish them. So I prefer cards that are cheap and can be cast without costing us time when possible (that made me play Profane Memento's main).
Running it full control seems a waste to me, at that point, just kill them with man lands and save a lot of deckspace to make the control part better.
Pure mill spells thrown at their face can get there some times, but creatures are crazy these days and we enable some huge hitters like Gurmag/Tasigur, giant Tarmogoyfs, Knights of the reliquary, etc...
Racing those can get very tricky, on top of just faster combo decks like Storm and Abzan Company, or Infect, and pesky hatebears or Eidolons who can wreck us. So some interaction is needed I think.
Sideboard cards:
Set Adrift
Echoing Truth
Ravenous Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Nihil Spellbomb
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Extirpate
Ratchet Bomb
And some of the cards listed above
I do not recommend "transformational" sideboards. I've tried them for a while because they're fun (bringing in Jace's Phantasm and Wight of Precint Six, or Lab Maniac and Unburial Rites in my Esper version and mill ourselves), but they're just not reliable in my experience.
We need something to wipe graveyards, for Storm/Dredge/Snapcaster/Emrakul decks, something to deal with enchantments/artifacts/planeswalkers, and then some combination of lifegain/sweepers. Extra extraction effects are pretty popular as well since they can win us matches for almost free (t0 Archive trap and surgical IS a thing and wrecks decks)
Finally, land base:
Field of Ruin (I STRONGLY suggest 4 of)
Shelldock Isle (2 is the number for me)
Watery Graves (3 for me)
Fetches to trigger revolt, add some if you run Crabs (I run 6)
Swamps
Islands
Oboro if you run Crab
Honorable Land mentions for Ipnu's Rivulet and Geier Reach Sanitarium or Mikokoro, I would love to play them but I don't think we can.
Sunken Hollow/Drowned Catacomb can work as well, Darkslick Shores entering tapped as the 4th land makes me not want it, that is a key land drop for double mill spell.
I run 21 lands, maybe 22 is better? Getting that 4th land screwed me a couple of times, I think I will cut 1 Breaking for 1 Ipnu's rivulet and try that.
Any cards you feel are worth playing or testing and I missed?
EDIT: Format
You don't mention fraying sanity at all. Any specific reason? I would put it in the core section so it surprised me to not see it.
Oops, completely missed that, haha.
Definitely, Fraying Sanity is a 100% core part in my eyes.
Started playing 2, up to 3, and now I play the full 4. I really want to cast 1 turn 3, and drawing a second one is far from bad, especially if you have an Orb out, or if you play other "engines".
As a brief update comment, I can say after several games I recommend Profane Memento maindeck. It buys a ton of time, to the point where I had several opponents target it first with their artifact removal or discard g2, even before Orbs or Fraying Sanity.
Since I'm playing Memento maindeck, moving the crypt incursions to the side and maindecking echoing truths has also worked nicely. Saved me once against a maindeck leyline opponent, and has usually had at least a decent target in a planeswalker (like that **** Gideon of the trials), or a bunch of tokens, or even just bouncing their play for the turn.
Fraying sanity
Fevered visions
Sphinx's tutelage
A ton of 1 mana draw spells
Dynavolt tower for creature control
I use isochron sceptor with counterspell
Any comments on the move back to damnation over expertise?
Also, I was curious on your line of play. If you have a fraying sanity in hand and an archive trap, will you wait to cast it even if they turn 1 fetch? I know there are some arguments for both depending on the opponent, but what would sway you either way?
Not really, I've barely cast either one, and off the top of my head I remember two times when the difference was really relevant, one time that expertise was awesome playing a fraying sanity off of it, and one time when a couple humans survived since they had already grown too much. So I would still recommend either one. Bontu's no untapping was bad, I don't want to try that again, haha.
Regarding casting trap or holding it, it depends on the matchup, as you said. If my opponent is playing anything where he cares about his graveyard, I will hold it (Storm, Dredge, Vengevine decks, decks with delve creatures, etc...).
Having surgical in your hand also plays a big role. I will go for it against storm if I have surgical in hand, same with Living end or Ad Nauseaum.
I will definitely go for it against Tron, Titanshift, fast creature decks if I have a Memento in play, or decks that might play Leonin Arbiter or Blood Moon.
Then again, a lot of times you just can't tell. Then the contents of the rest of your hand are the factors to take into account.
If I have a Glimpse or Breaking in hand and a Visions of Beyond I will also probably cast 1 trap, since then I can then reach those 20 cards for Ancestral Recall.
If I have Field of Ruin in hand, I will tend to not cast it. I will try to get a Fraying Sanity down and then 1 shot them. They really don't expect that line of play even if they see your hand, they usually will take Glimpse or Orb instead of Sanity (trap is safe from inquisition, and anyway they don't usually take it unless they have a bunch of fetches in hand).
Of course, if you see a Blood moon coming, or a Leonin Arbiter, or he doesn't play many non basics, you should probably cast them.
I think I will change the Trapmaker snare's for Merchant Scroll.
I don't care that much about losing the instant I think since I'm not playing remands/mana leak, and it will give me the flexibility of fetching "Ancestral Recall" and getting the final cards I need, or Echoing Truth to get rid of a Leyline or Gideon or Tokens from empty the warrens or lingering souls, on top of the obvious Traps.
I really think it will be a nice addition (specially since I don't play Ravenous traps, so I don't lose any value there, only the instant/sorcery speed)
Weakest cards were by far the TrapMakers Snares and yahenni's expertise. I wanted it to be damnation every match. And snare is just not consistent enough.
Profane Memento main was excellent! I almost want to cut cryptic from the board because the PM does such a good job without increasing my cu4ve when I'm trying to drop a bridge.
Speaking of bridge, I sided all 3 in in every match except 1. It was excellent.
Matchups:
GW collected company value (2-1 1-0 matches)
Won game 1 off of mesmeric orb and Memento. Game 2 he had a perfect curve on the play and I couldn't catch up. Game 3 he couldn't find his 3rd land after mulliganing twice, and I took 2 Knights of the Reliquary out of his hand with a surgical.
Titanshift (2-0 2-0 matches)
I had the perfect opener of 2 archive trap 2 glimpse a surgical and 2 lands. Milled him for 36 by turn 2 and got to surgical his valakut. He scooped. Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 trying to find layline and kept a hand with no green mana. This match was over quick.
Counters Company (2-0 3-0 matches)
Profane Memento was excellent again here. Game 1 I got to extract the visir off of a turn 2 glimpse to force him into a fair gameplan. Game 2 I sided in pithing needles and named druid after he played it turn 2 and he never found an answer to that or the bridge. He was still able to attack under the bridge with Nobel Hierarch but a crypt incursion for a ton got a concession.
Eldrazi Tron (1-2 3-1 matches)
Played against the, hands down, best player in the room here. Should have won game 1 because I Milled 40+ cards by turn 4 but drew 7 lands in a row off of a visions, push on a thoughtknot, and three draws. Game 2 was really close, but mesmeric orb and bridge got there. Game 3 was also close, but after getting to set adrift his smasher which was his last threat, he top decked another that I found no answer to.
Eldrazi Tron (2-1 4-1 matches)
Close like above, but he mulled to 5 game 3 and didn't really put up a fight. Mesmeric orb is so good in this matchup.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117491
CEldraziTron, UBMill, GWBogles
Legacy
GUInfect, CEldrazi
Standard
GRGR Pummeler
Are you playing the 4 Field of Ruin or just 2? I was just wondering what made the snares so underwhelming for you, and without 4 Field of Ruin I can definitely see them being bad. We never leave open mana, so if we need them available when they fetch they won't work well.
That being said, I barely played this weekend, but merchant scroll worked a lot nicer (I switched Crypt Incursion to the sideboard and maindecked Echoing Truths, so that's another target for it). Getting to tutor for an ancestral recall or an answer to leyline/blood moon/tokens/planeswalkers is very good, as well as working as a Snare when we're on track for the kill.
I still hold that the wide range of matchups you might end up against make Modern very difficult to predict, and luck in the matchups is a bigger factor than it ever was before.
From the list jay2rockusa posted from the SCG event, I didn't like the lone 4 Crabs, since I thought they're "wasting" a lot of card advantage enabling all creature removal, for some amount of milling that could've been done with other non-creature cards.
Then again, I checked MTGGoldfish for the current meta data, and to my surprise, Path/Push are not as omnipresent as they were a little while ago.
Off of mtggoldfish meta, the top 10 decks play this many dead cards if you go creatureless:
Jeskai 4
Storm 0
5c Humans 3
Tron 3
Affinity 0
Burn 4
Grixis DS 6
Eldrazi Tron 4
Abzan Company 0
Eldrazi Taxes 4
So it might not be such a bad time for Crabs. When Grixis DS was everywhere, going creatureless was an incredible advantage.
There's obviously a ton more removal in the form of burn spells, but since those can go to our face otherwise, the only one we really save is Searing Blaze (Anger of the Gods was not in any maindeck).
While I have the tabs open, this is the number of creatures those decks run (for profane memento evaluation):
Jeskai 11
Storm 6
5c Humans 37
Tron 6
Affinity 26
Burn 14
Grixis DS 16
Eldrazi Tron 20
Abzan Company 30
Eldrazi Taxes 28
Definitely seems good in a lot of matchups, just as we saw. Let's say we mill half of their deck before being in trouble with the life total, we have a nice buffer in most matches. I would only board them out against Storm/Tron, so they seem to deserve the maindeck spot.
EDIT: Found out the player of that list that made 14th place is the streamer I talked about a little while ago, RedSunKnight. This confirms to me what I said about the lottery, I've skimmed through most of the streams he has done in the last couple of months, and he managed 1 5-0 competitive league finish, some 4-1s, a ton of 3-2 and 2-3, and lately he was very frequently 0-3 DROP, he even started grinding friendly leagues and was struggling there to go higher than 3-2.
I'm not saying this to reduce the value of the deck or him as a player at all, but to highlight how a deck can both struggle frequently and suddenly find success in current Modern's environment.
I played the 4 fields. With 4 untapped mana you can use the field with enough mana for the snare, but it's like paying 4 mana for a mill 13. We can instead play 2 2cmc mill spells to get our hand size down for bridge or play an actual 4 cmc mill 13 spell. That being startled awake. I've taken out the 3 snares for 2 more breaking, and 1 startled awake.
I'll get my list up as soon as I can. It is really similar to your list. With these differences.
22 lands
-2 Echoing Truth
-3 merchant scroll
+1 breaking
+2 mind funeral
+1 startled awake
Sideboard is the same.
I haven't played a ton of matches with this list, but I already like it more than snare.
By the way, Profane Memento main makes this deck playable in my opinion. It has given me enough time to mill my opponent several times. Thanks for that contribution. It has been doing so well that I'm really close to taking crypt incursion out of the side. I may replace it with 2 dismembers for the e-tron matchup. Reality smasher is a beating..
Few quick questions:
How important is the "all with the same name" clause on Echoing Truth? Because Winds of Rebuke would be a blast to play 4 of.
Given that I'm playing 4 Profane Memento, is Fatal Push straight up necessary to survive aggression? Or could I skate by with 4 copies of Echoing Truth/Winds? I am reluctant to decrease mill spell density for anything if I can help it.
Lastly, Compelling Argument I don't find anywhere discussed for modern. Is 5 cards just too few for a mill spell to nab, even with cycling?
Regarding trap, I wouldn't play it like you said. If I don't have another trap in hand, t4 I would cast a 2 CMC mill spell, and then I would cast snare EOT and get the archive trap. Then t5 activate field of ruin, cast trap for free and cast another 2 or 3 mill spell/sanity and hopefully win.
I try to not activate Field of Ruin prematurely, since I have 7 ways of drawing traps, and I've drawed the trap the turn after I used field of ruin too many times, haha. Or Fraying Sanity... so I try to see what I will be doing the following turns as well before activating it. If I have Visions of Beyond, I would probably go for it since I can expect some more gas. Or if I need lifegain from Memento desperately. If I have push and other mill spells, I would play those and hold push, and wait for an extra trap or fraying sanity to combo.
I moved Crypt Incursion to the sideboard after maindecking Memento. Crypt is very powerful, just as Bridge is, but I find we don't need that much against most matchups, and some lifegain from memento and tempo from Echoing Truth is enough to win. Plus, Merchant Scroll being able to tutor up the Echoing Truths and Visions of Beyond has been very nice for flexibility, providing virtual additional copies of those spells.
Dismember is more and more tempting each day, it really feels correct. Not sure what to cut though, it's similar to what happens to me with discard. That's what I was refering to when I said there are multiple combinations of those utility cards that can work better/worse depending on the matchups and personal play style I guess.
LadenniferJadaniston, you can try cutting push, I've gonne without removal for a while. I don't think I would recommend it, since there are a ton of creatures that hit hard and will put a lot of pressure on you, plus Thalias, Arbiters, Devoted Druids, Goblin electromancers, etc... You will almost always find a target for them. There are plenty of budget options that work just fine probably in case that's an issue, Dismember being number one, haha.
I love the all with the same name from Echoing Truth more than the small mill or Rebuke. It deals with lingering souls/empty the warrens tokens, multiple leylines, multiple thalias, multiple shadows/goyfs/anglers. I would 100% choose Echoing Truth over Winds.
Compelling Argument is something you can try, the cycling can help. Otherwise, we can do a lot better than that for 2 mana.
I prefer Dream twist as far as smaller/instant U mill spells go, since you can cast it from the graveyard if you mill it with orb, and it can fill the curve if you lack any play. Still, I don't play it, I think they would only be worth it in a mono U version, with counter magic and playing almost everything at instant speed.
We should never expect to re use it, that's for sure.
Then it's mill 13 for 2UU, which is a bit cheaper than a hard cast archive trap, but hard cast archive traps are not good, and this is a sorcery! If it was an instant, at least it would help get out of Academy Ruins locks and things like that (that's why I have some consideration about Dream twist and Thought Scour)
I don't really feel tempted to play it.
If your meta is allowing Crabs to survive, Jace Vryn's Prodigy could be nice for graveyard recursion. When I tested him he just kept getting killed before even flipping, it was very annoying.
He chimes in here every once in awhile to tell us that he's right and we're all wrong without actually having played many games.