After reading all those thoughts about token generating effects I'm starting to think that the card we're searching for has to be a cost 1 Creature. If we take a closer look at our deck we already have 12 fix spells: 4 Lightnings, 4 Grenades and 4 Atarka's. Every copy is worth it, we did the math. I'm testing the deck atm with 14-15 spells and the chances of having to mulligan increases. Also, we have enough 2 drops. We need creatures on our initial hand and, of course, we need to make pressure fast and even draw a few more. If we add more spells we're kinda ruining our way to win. So, I'm thinking on trying Vexing Devil despite my aversion. I'm even considerating to give another chance to Goblin Wardriver.
Need to do more math tho.
@Jedidad: Yeah, you should totally run Grenades&Fanatics. We all recommend it for sure!
Devil works well in Hellakevin's build - it's definitely a good card here in that it almost always represents four damage. I'm just personally not a fan of the card and I'd prefer to have something else in it's place.
In the interest of not quoting an ever increasing thread I will attempt to sum up how I perceive the discussion:
You dislike Command effects because they are weaker than Mogg War Marshal, invite new players to overcommit, and are too situational to be good. You think we can do better than token generators for 1R.
My Response (assuming I hit the nail on the head with your thoughts above):
Yes, Token generating effects are weaker than war marshal, and there are many ways to make a goblin deck. I would argue what separates a goblin deck from a burn deck, and the whole reason for running this build (your list above which is only 2 cards different from mine MB) is our ability to swarm and pump using microsynergies. I say microsynergies as opposed to larger tribal synergies you would find in our larger lordly goblins we aren't currently running. Burn cannot do this and does not rely on any synergy beyond counting to 20. Merfolk does this, but not as good or as fast as we do. We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does. If we did - why play goblins at all? Just replace all of your goblins with MORE EFFICIENT burn spells. We should consider this ratio, but in the context of our decks synergistic relationships while leveraging our strengths - which I mentioned previously.
Dragon Fodder type cards are not creme of the crop of this strategy, but they enable it because they are the best we have access to right now. Perhaps make a petition that we should get two mogg war marshals the same way merfolk has lord of atlantis and master of the pearl trident (like wtf srsly?) The reason we run these cards is to increase the chances of having a perfect storm of damage and sequencing. Swarm is the fundamental strategy of this deck. Having 6-7 token generators (marshal and sorceries) is much more consistent than having only 4. Having a redundant 7 of them means you can rely on drawing these and the situation is **far** from being magical christmasland... (I use extra **s for extra emphasis!) /sarcasm
Mogg War Marshal, Krenko's Command, and Dragon Fodder are our only sources of card advantage in the deck. Literally nothing else give us 2-3 dudes for one card. This is the closest red gets. Even desperate ravings only generates an additional draw when you use blue mana! lol... blue mana... It is difficult to swarm when all of your best goblin cards only provide one body. You could run other token generating effects, but they are likely too slow for the deck (see Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, and Goblin Rabblemaster)
I do not expect new players to goblins to fully grasp these nuanced discussions right away, my audience here is competitive goblin players and nothing less. it takes much more actual deck testing to really get a handle on the different ways people can pilot the same stack of 60 cards. Especially when sequencing matters as much as it does in this deck...
We could do a whole anaysis of comparing Goblins to Burn and Merfolk, which might help everyone understand better what role our deck can leverage the best. While this might seem unnecessary, it is important to answer the question "why am I playing this and not that?" I know people hate this question, and I bring it up not to argue that we should be playing something else. But it is useful to consider the goblin niche in this line of thinking because it will help brewers like us to maximize the potential our archetype naturally has. If the answer to why a player is running goblins is simply "goblins are sweet!! Long time fan of the tribe!!" - then that person isn't really thinking critically (and competitively) about the unique advantages this sort of build offers over much more tried and true decks like burn and merfolk. Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent.
Anyway - that's my thinking on that topic and why I see value in Dragon Fodder lol. That is really all I am trying to say!
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I feel like a better answer against decks with a lot of G/W things we hate (Finks and friends) is to go faster and wider and downplay the removal. Siding in three pillar of flame is the most I would go in that sense. Actually, boarding more that 3 cards is likely a bad idea in general for this deck. The list we have is very tight to begin with and we really cannot afford to dilute it beyond that.
As for Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command - I think you guys are misunderstanding the importance of this card's role. Siding it out should be done so cautiously. This along with Mogg War Marshal allows us to go very wide and the card plays a very important role. It doesn't matter if your opponent gains a couple life and has resilient blocker or two on the board if you can out man them and pump in an all out attack. Siding out these types of effects makes each Atarka's Command and Goblin Bushwhacker less potent - our primary ways of doing huge amounts of damage. Siding out these cards also weakens our strongest T1 play - Foundry Street Denizen. (also - siding out FSD just seems sacreliguous to me)
The matchup is rough any way you look at it don't get me wrong. That said, I think our best chance is to out race them and go wide around their blockers. Boarding in removal is probably a mistake unless it doubles as direct damage. Which Pillar of flame does nicely. In your build I think I would have attempted this:
I still find 4 Atarka's to be excessive in my testing. Boarding out Fanatics is iffy I know. They kill dorks! Remember the strategy - go wide and hard. Piledriver + trample (from ghor clan or loyalist) will likely do so much damage they cannot survive even with life gain. When the board is all gummed up you need piledriver. It is susceptible to paths, but that is okay - they cannot path everything and this card will seal their fate.
I think if we try to hard to play the removal game we just lose because once we lack creature count our entire plan falls apart. Our deck has value because of it's unique ability to throw copious disposable creatures at the opponent's face. 1-for-1 is their strategy and they are much better at it than us. We need lots of dudes to win. This is how we leverage our mass pumps in these kinds of situations.
-------------------------------------
With that point made - all this is brought up for discussion to learn how to best win these kinds of matchups. My intent is not to criticize your decisions, but to learn from the options we have moving forward. Hindsight is 20/20!
Edit - I almost forgot to mention an anecdote. I once played against soul sisters and was able to do 40+ damage to win in one attack using this methodology... specifically a singleton Shared Animosity + Legion Loyalist
I agree with everything stated and just wanted to echo these statements. Removing blockers is an aggro quality creature strategy typical of zoo. We lack quality like zoo so we go wide and as deep as possible.
As for interactive reach I think the gruul version has the best to offer: Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Grenade, Command, and Lightning Bolt. I think any more than that we quickly loose creature density.
IMO all we really need to do with reach is just stop support creatures or more importantly stop Twin from going off.
If we get gummed up we double down on our strategy or play chasem like redmage posted earlier.
I highly dislike Ghor-Rampager or any spell for that matter that adds to the already prime 12 support spells gruul brings.
For anti-life gain I think we should look to the SB. I play affinity and over the many years I've played it I have learned that no more than 4 SB cards are ever posited into the MB. Cool thing is unlike affinity goblins don't have to counter hate while hating them out. We can just focus on hating them out.
The only spell that can stop us is chalice of the void, but I don't see it played in the meta too much thank goodness. And if they did we would hate on artifacts.
Its basically a Kuldotha Rebirth and T3 Gobbos hybrid. So far its been working okay for me. Hyper aggressive Turn 1 - Turn 2 line of plays include:
Turn 1: Mountain - Foundry Street Denizen --> Turn 2: Memnite (Sac it for K.Rebirth to trigger FSD), Attack for 5
Turn 1: Show Chancellor of the Forge and attack, Sac it to K.Rebirth after attack phase --> Turn 2: Legion Loyalist / Bushwhacker play for 4 - 8 damage.
Multiple Signal Pests on turn 2 usually finishes the game.
So far Jund has been my hardest match-up. Grixis is ok as long as I play around adding more creatures on board. Watch out for Pyroclasm in game 2. Goblin Grenading that turn 2 Tasigur or Angler is always satisfying lol.
Elruy - how has Rabblemaster been playing out for you? Your curve overall is substantially higher than most of the other decks here, have you had any issues with it? Is your meta lightning bolt heavy?
so far so Good i think of it as Piledriver's faraway cousin if unchecked it can take the game on its own. Also is one of the most tricky cards to play with, some times rather cast on Second main to represent a better treat or a lethal hit next turn (turn 3 on 3-4 damage representing 8-10 next turn sounds like a plan)
About the land count i think I've lost more games from mana flood than Mana screw now that I've changed to Mogg warmarshal two lands is What is needed most of the times (one land hand some times it's Good if the hand lets you pilot that way)
Yes as is heavy in form such as pyroclasm Anger of the gods whip flare.
"You dislike Command effects because they are weaker than Mogg War Marshal, invite new players to overcommit, and are too situational to be good. You think we can do better than token generators for 1R."
Yep - that and I don't feel like the token generators are the best use of mana/tempo.
"Yes, Token generating effects are weaker than war marshal, and there are many ways to make a goblin deck. I would argue what separates a goblin deck from a burn deck, and the whole reason for running this build (your list above which is only 2 cards different from mine MB) is our ability to swarm and pump using microsynergies. I say microsynergies as opposed to larger tribal synergies you would find in our larger lordly goblins we aren't currently running. Burn cannot do this and does not rely on any synergy beyond counting to 20. Merfolk does this, but not as good or as fast as we do. We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does."
Personally, I feel that the biggest difference between us and a burn deck is Goblin Grenade. We run a high density of goblins because of microsynergies with things like Piledriver sure, but being able to sac a 1 mana (or less) creature for 25% of the opponents life total is FAR more powerful than anything burn currently has access to.
"We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does. If we did - why play goblins at all? Just replace all of your goblins with MORE EFFICIENT burn spells. We should consider this ratio, but in the context of our decks synergistic relationships while leveraging our strengths - which I mentioned previously."
Goblin. Grenade. It is more efficient than ANYTHING they have, and because of that it makes running a deck based around it worth running. We HAPPEN to get additional value out of Atarka's command because we're running a much higher creature density due to needing a critical mass of goblins for grenade. This overlap in strategies/methods of attack is what gives us a versatility that Zoo doesn't have access to (and why they try to play bad cards like Tribal Flames).
"Perhaps make a petition that we should get two mogg war marshals the same way merfolk has lord of atlantis and master of the pearl trident (like wtf srsly?)"
Right? Sigh. WOTC - Can we have Warchief? Please?
"Swarm is the fundamental strategy of this deck."
I just simply disagree. It is A strategy that the deck does well, but we win MOST of our games on the back of efficient burn spells. Being able to do both is what makes things great. I'm also of the opinion that we swarm VERY well without the use of extra token makers because we run so many different 1cmc creatures.
"Mogg War Marshal, Krenko's Command, and Dragon Fodder are our only sources of card advantage in the deck. Literally nothing else give us 2-3 dudes for one card. This is the closest red gets. Even desperate ravings only generates an additional draw when you use blue mana! lol... blue mana... It is difficult to swarm when all of your best goblin cards only provide one body. You could run other token generating effects, but they are likely too slow for the deck (see Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, and Goblin Rabblemaster)"
This is me getting a little hung up on semantics, but what you're describing isn't card advantage. We get advantages from these exchanges and having more bodies than they do, but this doesn't put us up usable cards (which is why some people have suggested running Abbot of Keral Keep). I think Rabble could be great potentially out of the side, but it would need to improve one of our bad matchups substantially to want to consider it (probably not happening). With this in mind, I almost feel like Hordeling Outburst is worth looking at. My ultimate issue with Fodder/Krenko's is that 2 1/1s doesn't feel like a full card's worth of value- adding another 1/1 to this kind of changes the game a little bit. This 'army in a can' quality is what makes Siege Gang SO damn good even at 5cmc (man, I wish there was a way to play him).
"I do not expect new players to goblins to fully grasp these nuanced discussions right away, my audience here is competitive goblin players and nothing less. it takes much more actual deck testing to really get a handle on the different ways people can pilot the same stack of 60 cards. Especially when sequencing matters as much as it does in this deck..."
Agreed. This deck and the methods of piloting it have moved MUCH further than the original lords lists. Things are VERY precise and it's NOT an easy deck to pilot correctly. We are PUNISHED for misplays of all sorts, but we are wielding a much more high powered weapon in the process.
"Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent."
I DO think we can out-efficiency burn while also having the benefits of a swarm deck. THAT is our unique strength. If we could get a 2 mana lord that'd be great, and we definitely can't play merfolk's disrupt and pump game, but we CAN compete heads up with burn/zoo/affinity. Our main strength is this ability to attack on two axes, and decks that can handle one can't handle the other. Getting these two things in balance is how we push this deck to the next level.
"Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent."
tbh i am very sour that Merfolks get a 2 mana Lord that is clearly OP, elves have inbuilt ramp to ramp into their 3 mana lords and goblins pretty much get nothing relevant.
at this point, i wouldn't mind if R&D printed a goblin lord that looks like this:
RR
Goblin Lord
2/1
All Goblins get +1/+0 and haste
When a Goblin comes into play under your control, Goblin Lord deals 1 damage to target creature of player.
if they wanna bone gobin players even more, make it a legendary card.
"Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent."
tbh i am very sour that Merfolks get a 2 mana Lord that is clearly OP, elves have inbuilt ramp to ramp into their 3 mana lords and goblins pretty much get nothing relevant.
at this point, i wouldn't mind if R&D printed a goblin lord that looks like this:
RR
Goblin Lord
2/1
All Goblins get +1/+0 and haste
When a Goblin comes into play under your control, Goblin Lord deals 1 damage to target creature of player.
if they wanna bone gobin players even more, make it a legendary card.
Goblins I'd be cool with:
RR
Haste
2/2 or 3/1
RR
All other Goblins get +!+1
Haste
2/1
Ringleader. Even a 'Fixed' ringleader without haste is fully playable in a vial build.
Warchief's power is also on par with lords that other tribes have access to.
With all of this said, Goblins are 1 hyper efficient and printable card from being tier 1 in Modern AND Legacy. This deck is GOOD with GOOD tools available, but it can get really out of control really fast (this same 'problem' exists with Elves and Merfolk). Look at Merfolk, they got a serviceable creature that filled a small hole in their game plan and immediately go to Tier 1 in modern. Tribal synergies are not to be trifled with.
Goblins is stuck with all our lords costing 3cmc. What we really need is a decent 2 drop in red that has a lord effect or haste. We have a few already but they are in black... I think they will continue to show love for goblins in the future - piledriver reprint was a clear aign of that. Since that didnt help us much i think they will hopefully try again at a decent goblin two drop.
Seriously...
RR
Haste
2/2
Is this too much to ask for?!
God forbid if it had an etb ability or first strike...
Or even another hasty 1 drop. Thats a little lofty though!
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You are right - the success of this deck is our ability to balance burn while going wide with hasty goblins. Currently I think the Gruul builds most of us are tinkering with are pretty close to being as good as they can get, and are probably already there. People keep saying we can do better for the 2mana. Lets try this - what cards are you referring to?
If you are simply stating that Wizards needs to give us another good 2-drop, then on this we agree obviously.
Out of the cards we have available, I do not think we have a better option then. Unfortunately we have little to work with. I have thought about these two slots a great deal, even before we began this forum discussion.
Spike Jester is the clear winner if we splash into a third color. But it's power comes at a very high cost.
I would probably try those first...
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You are right - the success of this deck is our ability to balance burn while going wide with hasty goblins. Currently I think the Gruul builds most of us are tinkering with are pretty close to being as good as they can get, and are probably already there. People keep saying we can do better for the 2mana. Lets try this - what cards are you referring to?
If you are simply stating that Wizards needs to give us another good 2-drop, then on this we agree obviously.
Out of the cards we have available, I do not think we have a better option then. Unfortunately we have little to work with. I have thought about these two slots a great deal, even before we began this forum discussion.
Spike Jester is the clear winner if we splash into a third color. But it's power comes at a very high cost.
I would probably try those first...
So what we have with the deck currently is 55/56 SOLID cards that are exactly what we want, and a relatively inefficient flex spot that isn't so great. In the spot you can use Piledrivers, Signal Pest, or Vexing Devil, but all three have definite weaknesses. We could opt for another burn spell for 2/3 of the slots by using Skullcrack (helps to shore up some of our weaknesses in the main deck), or we could splash for a third color and open up ourselves to a whole host of problems for Spike Jester (who's power is WAY up there). Basically, if we get just one more card on the spectrum of Guide, Loyalist, Foundry, or Bushwhacker, then we're 100% optimized and get to run all cards we WANT to be running, not just cards that we have to.
Would we play this?
'x'
R
When 'x' enters the battlefield, it does 1 damage to target creature or player.
When 'x' leaves the battlefield, it does 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1
Tattermunge Witch's ability is sweet - sort of like a creature version of Atarka's Command, but it costs double and is slowed down a turn. This seems good but very situational to me. Maybe a SB card for creature matchups...
Goblin Wardriver Is like a watered down Witch with the bonus of not costing additional mana to activate the ability. This is very playable imo in the MD
Mudbrawler Cohort and Raging Goblin probably both are fastest flex options, but have no abilities. Not sure if these would increase damage over Krenko's Command in our first 4 turns. I don't want to do math right now lol...
Ember Hauler - this is a good card in disguise I think, similar to Mogg Fanatic. This card has a good body (2/2), is resiliant against wipes and removal, can kill creatures that really need to die, and acts as a burn spell. Keep in mind the mana ratio to damage (Niall) is low if it doesn't get to swing or block. With a pump effect the card represents 5 damage for 3 mana - still far from the insane value of Goblin Grenade. This guy gives us a little bit of everything - filling some deck holes.
Mardu Scout is a lesser Spike Jester imitation, but this card is great at filling holes too. Excellent at playing around wipes, solid P/T, and haste if desired for an investment of mana...
Dragon Fodder is the simple choice to play to the decks strengths... but perhaps one of these can help address a weakness
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
BTW - if you have not yet read this article on Modern Nexus you should. It is full of good advice for brewing in Goblins.
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Tattermunge Witch's ability is sweet - sort of like a creature version of Atarka's Command, but it costs double and is slowed down a turn. This seems good but very situational to me. Maybe a SB card for creature matchups...
Goblin Wardriver Is like a watered down Witch with the bonus of not costing additional mana to activate the ability. This is very playable imo in the MD
Mudbrawler Cohort and Raging Goblin probably both are fastest flex options, but have no abilities. Not sure if these would increase damage over Krenko's Command in our first 4 turns. I don't want to do math right now lol...
Ember Hauler - this is a good card in disguise I think, similar to Mogg Fanatic. This card has a good body (2/2), is resiliant against wipes and removal, can kill creatures that really need to die, and acts as a burn spell. Keep in mind the mana ratio to damage (Niall) is low if it doesn't get to swing or block. With a pump effect the card represents 5 damage for 3 mana - still far from the insane value of Goblin Grenade. This guy gives us a little bit of everything - filling some deck holes.
Mardu Scout is a lesser Spike Jester imitation, but this card is great at filling holes too. Excellent at playing around wipes, solid P/T, and haste if desired for an investment of mana...
Dragon Fodder is the simple choice to play to the decks strengths... but perhaps one of these can help address a weakness
My issue with cards like Ember Hauler is that I really don't want to cast it on turn two. All of our other 2 drops we're fine with curving into, but Ember Hauler is a 2 drop that is secretly more of a 3-drop. Wardriver gets around this in that he can set us up for a really big turn three play, but EH lacks this same feature. Certainly he's worth some value (especially when blocking, etc.), but that one extra mana on his ability really brings down it's potential, imo.
In that battle between Mudbrawler and Raging Goblin, I think we take Raging Goblin, but that doesn't mean that either *really* want to be here. If either had any relevant abilities at all they'd be welcome inclusions (some sort of no block clause, mini pump, ping on enter or exit, anything).
I experimented before with Mardu Scout and it worked.. fine, so I might try to run it as a 2-of again (I hated three of them in my deck, but was always ok with the first one). In the pump spell slot I've got Ghor-Clan, and it's done serious work for me as both a removal spell and as a way to sneak damage through while retaining relevance in case the game goes long, bur Rancor is a sweet option to consider.
We as a community need to all hope and pray that wizards gives us SOMETHING in Oath, because with Innistrad coming up afterward we will have no goblins to look forward to as there are none on that plane. BUSHWHACKER/GUIDE II WIZARDS. DO IT. ZADA WAS COOL AND EVERYTHING, BUT WE NEED SOMETHING PLAYABLE. PLZ.
Yeah I mean none of those cards are what we want. They are all like a few words away from being exactly what we need. It is up to the pilot to decide which we can live with in the deck.
As for praying for a new goblin I cannot do this. I have been let down too many times! We better get used to what we have access to imo, because Wizards is a cold hearted B@!& when it comes to giving people what they want. Often it seems they don't do this, and when they do its when you least expect it or fulfills a half promise... Sometimes they give us what we need and we just don't even realize it because we are too hung up on filling an existing whole rather than analyzing what we can do with what we have! It was a long time before a no lords goblin list saw any sort of spotlight - and even now its still a rogue deck.
Eh... WTH - #goblinsneedlove
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Hey folks, I've been busy with work, brewing some random Prowess decks, and playing some paper magic in my spare time. I didn't find the moment to write about RPTQ. Well, it was a disaster for me I guess, but I did learn a few things.
I used a somewhat regular Atarka no-lord goblins with 1 Piledriver main and 1 sideboard. I had 3 fanatics main and 1 in the board with one copy of Stingscourger, Tin-Street, and two Frenzied Goblins in addition to Dismember, two Rending Volley, some Molten Rain, grave hate (Relic) and a single Pyrite Spellbomb. Otherwise, deck was an usual list with 4-ofs and 19 lands (4 copperline gorge, 6 fetchlands, 2 caverns, 2 stomping ground, 5 mountain). One of the mistakes was being too confidant in Atarka's Command as a mainboard anti-lifegain, and didn't pack any Pillar of Flames (Finks...!) or Flame Slash (Zoo) in the board for those pesky creatures. Needless to say, I ate finks and alike quite a bit.
My matchups were bad, at least in my opinion, and my subpar play didn't help either. I went 2-5, against the following opponents:
Round 1: 0 - 2 Abzan, couldn't go under him, kept shaky hands but it's hard after mulligan. Round 2: 2 - 0 Infect, as usually, it turns out fanatics are good against infect. Easy match-up really. Round 3: 0 - 2 Death & Taxes, he managed to lock me out game 1 via arbiter and land destruction, while taxing me in both games (3 mana bolt, thanks). Game 2 sideboard firewalker and friends got better out of me. Round 4: 1 - 2 Zoo, he literally lava spiked me to the death in game 3, he was just bigger than me, and I couldn't race his threats since I cannot attack into those nacatls and apes, backed up by helix. Not a bad match-up, but a race that I simply lost. Round 5: 0 - 2 Abzan CoCo (podless pod), yep, it's bad when he gets infinite life combo on turn 3, so I scooped game 1 (seer, finks, anafenza, no removal on my side). Game two guy played three (3) finks in a row. Good game. Round 6: 1 - 2 GR Tron, a fellow countryman with whom we traveled to RPTQ, we played out in casual FNM atmosphere, he came out on top. Round 7: 2 - 0 Infect, showing that this really is a strong match for us, especially if you are packing Fanatics.
There is not much more to add. I have to think more about sideboard before going to the tournament, as decks like atarka no lords are tight on the slots. Another thing where I need to improve is sideboarding - what to side out, when some hate is relevant, and so on. Magic is really deeper than I realized, there is always something to improve, learn, and conquer.
Otherwise, I'll walk right into the conversation, which I like since go goblins right!? I'm feeling the love for turn 3 version and will likely try the boros one with kytheons. Regarding token spells and new prints, there are some designs I would really love, like
when goblin of st traft attacks put a 1/1 goblin creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking, exile it at the end of the turn.
and all other 2mana with lord effects you guys mentioned. I think they would see play in our decks, even something like 2mana 1/1, all attacking goblins get +1/+0, would do it. However, 2mana 2 or 3 power haster is not really new, we do have Spike Jester and we know how on-and-off we are about it. It is a removal magnet, albeit a fast clock that gets better with loyalist. Black splash is not really that hard (or painful), we got 8 painless dual lands, and we could use more fetchlands to keep green splash stable as well.
Some already played around with Jund No Lord goblins, including me, but it's hard to justify Jester over token makers. Both have pro's and con's, but I doubt a hasty 2drop without anything special or lord effect would push us to tiers. All in all, I'm loving all the activity here, and will look to represent the goblin tribe this weekend on two larger (150+ person) tournaments!
Devil works well in Hellakevin's build - it's definitely a good card here in that it almost always represents four damage. I'm just personally not a fan of the card and I'd prefer to have something else in it's place.
In the interest of not quoting an ever increasing thread I will attempt to sum up how I perceive the discussion:
You dislike Command effects because they are weaker than Mogg War Marshal, invite new players to overcommit, and are too situational to be good. You think we can do better than token generators for 1R.
My Response (assuming I hit the nail on the head with your thoughts above):
Yes, Token generating effects are weaker than war marshal, and there are many ways to make a goblin deck. I would argue what separates a goblin deck from a burn deck, and the whole reason for running this build (your list above which is only 2 cards different from mine MB) is our ability to swarm and pump using microsynergies. I say microsynergies as opposed to larger tribal synergies you would find in our larger lordly goblins we aren't currently running. Burn cannot do this and does not rely on any synergy beyond counting to 20. Merfolk does this, but not as good or as fast as we do. We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does. If we did - why play goblins at all? Just replace all of your goblins with MORE EFFICIENT burn spells. We should consider this ratio, but in the context of our decks synergistic relationships while leveraging our strengths - which I mentioned previously.
Dragon Fodder type cards are not creme of the crop of this strategy, but they enable it because they are the best we have access to right now. Perhaps make a petition that we should get two mogg war marshals the same way merfolk has lord of atlantis and master of the pearl trident (like wtf srsly?) The reason we run these cards is to increase the chances of having a perfect storm of damage and sequencing. Swarm is the fundamental strategy of this deck. Having 6-7 token generators (marshal and sorceries) is much more consistent than having only 4. Having a redundant 7 of them means you can rely on drawing these and the situation is **far** from being magical christmasland... (I use extra **s for extra emphasis!) /sarcasm
Mogg War Marshal, Krenko's Command, and Dragon Fodder are our only sources of card advantage in the deck. Literally nothing else give us 2-3 dudes for one card. This is the closest red gets. Even desperate ravings only generates an additional draw when you use blue mana! lol... blue mana... It is difficult to swarm when all of your best goblin cards only provide one body. You could run other token generating effects, but they are likely too slow for the deck (see Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, and Goblin Rabblemaster)
I do not expect new players to goblins to fully grasp these nuanced discussions right away, my audience here is competitive goblin players and nothing less. it takes much more actual deck testing to really get a handle on the different ways people can pilot the same stack of 60 cards. Especially when sequencing matters as much as it does in this deck...
We could do a whole anaysis of comparing Goblins to Burn and Merfolk, which might help everyone understand better what role our deck can leverage the best. While this might seem unnecessary, it is important to answer the question "why am I playing this and not that?" I know people hate this question, and I bring it up not to argue that we should be playing something else. But it is useful to consider the goblin niche in this line of thinking because it will help brewers like us to maximize the potential our archetype naturally has. If the answer to why a player is running goblins is simply "goblins are sweet!! Long time fan of the tribe!!" - then that person isn't really thinking critically (and competitively) about the unique advantages this sort of build offers over much more tried and true decks like burn and merfolk. Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent.
Anyway - that's my thinking on that topic and why I see value in Dragon Fodder lol. That is really all I am trying to say!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I agree with everything stated and just wanted to echo these statements. Removing blockers is an aggro quality creature strategy typical of zoo. We lack quality like zoo so we go wide and as deep as possible.
As for interactive reach I think the gruul version has the best to offer: Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Grenade, Command, and Lightning Bolt. I think any more than that we quickly loose creature density.
IMO all we really need to do with reach is just stop support creatures or more importantly stop Twin from going off.
If we get gummed up we double down on our strategy or play chasem like redmage posted earlier.
I highly dislike Ghor-Rampager or any spell for that matter that adds to the already prime 12 support spells gruul brings.
For anti-life gain I think we should look to the SB. I play affinity and over the many years I've played it I have learned that no more than 4 SB cards are ever posited into the MB. Cool thing is unlike affinity goblins don't have to counter hate while hating them out. We can just focus on hating them out.
The only spell that can stop us is chalice of the void, but I don't see it played in the meta too much thank goodness. And if they did we would hate on artifacts.
YOUTUBE CHANNEL: GOBOTS
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Memnite
4x Signal Pest
4x Goblin Grenade
4x Kuldotha Rebirth
4x Atarka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
6x Mountain
2x Rootbound Crag
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
Its basically a Kuldotha Rebirth and T3 Gobbos hybrid. So far its been working okay for me. Hyper aggressive Turn 1 - Turn 2 line of plays include:
Turn 1: Mountain - Foundry Street Denizen --> Turn 2: Memnite (Sac it for K.Rebirth to trigger FSD), Attack for 5
Turn 1: Show Chancellor of the Forge and attack, Sac it to K.Rebirth after attack phase --> Turn 2: Legion Loyalist / Bushwhacker play for 4 - 8 damage.
Multiple Signal Pests on turn 2 usually finishes the game.
So far Jund has been my hardest match-up. Grixis is ok as long as I play around adding more creatures on board. Watch out for Pyroclasm in game 2. Goblin Grenading that turn 2 Tasigur or Angler is always satisfying lol.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
so far so Good i think of it as Piledriver's faraway cousin if unchecked it can take the game on its own. Also is one of the most tricky cards to play with, some times rather cast on Second main to represent a better treat or a lethal hit next turn (turn 3 on 3-4 damage representing 8-10 next turn sounds like a plan)
About the land count i think I've lost more games from mana flood than Mana screw now that I've changed to Mogg warmarshal two lands is What is needed most of the times (one land hand some times it's Good if the hand lets you pilot that way)
Yes as is heavy in form such as pyroclasm Anger of the gods whip flare.
"You dislike Command effects because they are weaker than Mogg War Marshal, invite new players to overcommit, and are too situational to be good. You think we can do better than token generators for 1R."
Yep - that and I don't feel like the token generators are the best use of mana/tempo.
"Yes, Token generating effects are weaker than war marshal, and there are many ways to make a goblin deck. I would argue what separates a goblin deck from a burn deck, and the whole reason for running this build (your list above which is only 2 cards different from mine MB) is our ability to swarm and pump using microsynergies. I say microsynergies as opposed to larger tribal synergies you would find in our larger lordly goblins we aren't currently running. Burn cannot do this and does not rely on any synergy beyond counting to 20. Merfolk does this, but not as good or as fast as we do. We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does."
Personally, I feel that the biggest difference between us and a burn deck is Goblin Grenade. We run a high density of goblins because of microsynergies with things like Piledriver sure, but being able to sac a 1 mana (or less) creature for 25% of the opponents life total is FAR more powerful than anything burn currently has access to.
"We cannot be in the business of counting raw damage for mana as a burn player does. If we did - why play goblins at all? Just replace all of your goblins with MORE EFFICIENT burn spells. We should consider this ratio, but in the context of our decks synergistic relationships while leveraging our strengths - which I mentioned previously."
Goblin. Grenade. It is more efficient than ANYTHING they have, and because of that it makes running a deck based around it worth running. We HAPPEN to get additional value out of Atarka's command because we're running a much higher creature density due to needing a critical mass of goblins for grenade. This overlap in strategies/methods of attack is what gives us a versatility that Zoo doesn't have access to (and why they try to play bad cards like Tribal Flames).
"Perhaps make a petition that we should get two mogg war marshals the same way merfolk has lord of atlantis and master of the pearl trident (like wtf srsly?)"
Right? Sigh. WOTC - Can we have Warchief? Please?
"Swarm is the fundamental strategy of this deck."
I just simply disagree. It is A strategy that the deck does well, but we win MOST of our games on the back of efficient burn spells. Being able to do both is what makes things great. I'm also of the opinion that we swarm VERY well without the use of extra token makers because we run so many different 1cmc creatures.
"Mogg War Marshal, Krenko's Command, and Dragon Fodder are our only sources of card advantage in the deck. Literally nothing else give us 2-3 dudes for one card. This is the closest red gets. Even desperate ravings only generates an additional draw when you use blue mana! lol... blue mana... It is difficult to swarm when all of your best goblin cards only provide one body. You could run other token generating effects, but they are likely too slow for the deck (see Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, and Goblin Rabblemaster)"
This is me getting a little hung up on semantics, but what you're describing isn't card advantage. We get advantages from these exchanges and having more bodies than they do, but this doesn't put us up usable cards (which is why some people have suggested running Abbot of Keral Keep). I think Rabble could be great potentially out of the side, but it would need to improve one of our bad matchups substantially to want to consider it (probably not happening). With this in mind, I almost feel like Hordeling Outburst is worth looking at. My ultimate issue with Fodder/Krenko's is that 2 1/1s doesn't feel like a full card's worth of value- adding another 1/1 to this kind of changes the game a little bit. This 'army in a can' quality is what makes Siege Gang SO damn good even at 5cmc (man, I wish there was a way to play him).
"I do not expect new players to goblins to fully grasp these nuanced discussions right away, my audience here is competitive goblin players and nothing less. it takes much more actual deck testing to really get a handle on the different ways people can pilot the same stack of 60 cards. Especially when sequencing matters as much as it does in this deck..."
Agreed. This deck and the methods of piloting it have moved MUCH further than the original lords lists. Things are VERY precise and it's NOT an easy deck to pilot correctly. We are PUNISHED for misplays of all sorts, but we are wielding a much more high powered weapon in the process.
"Goblins will never win on a large scale trying to outdo other strategies at their own game - it MUST leverage unique strengths to be worthwhile, and I think that would be swarming the opponent. We will never count to 20 faster than burn, and our lords aren't as good as merfolk... We rely on swarm synergies - by overwhelming the opponent."
I DO think we can out-efficiency burn while also having the benefits of a swarm deck. THAT is our unique strength. If we could get a 2 mana lord that'd be great, and we definitely can't play merfolk's disrupt and pump game, but we CAN compete heads up with burn/zoo/affinity. Our main strength is this ability to attack on two axes, and decks that can handle one can't handle the other. Getting these two things in balance is how we push this deck to the next level.
tbh i am very sour that Merfolks get a 2 mana Lord that is clearly OP, elves have inbuilt ramp to ramp into their 3 mana lords and goblins pretty much get nothing relevant.
at this point, i wouldn't mind if R&D printed a goblin lord that looks like this:
RR
Goblin Lord
2/1
All Goblins get +1/+0 and haste
When a Goblin comes into play under your control, Goblin Lord deals 1 damage to target creature of player.
if they wanna bone gobin players even more, make it a legendary card.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Goblins I'd be cool with:
RR
Haste
2/2 or 3/1
RR
All other Goblins get +!+1
Haste
2/1
Ringleader. Even a 'Fixed' ringleader without haste is fully playable in a vial build.
Warchief's power is also on par with lords that other tribes have access to.
With all of this said, Goblins are 1 hyper efficient and printable card from being tier 1 in Modern AND Legacy. This deck is GOOD with GOOD tools available, but it can get really out of control really fast (this same 'problem' exists with Elves and Merfolk). Look at Merfolk, they got a serviceable creature that filled a small hole in their game plan and immediately go to Tier 1 in modern. Tribal synergies are not to be trifled with.
Goblins is stuck with all our lords costing 3cmc. What we really need is a decent 2 drop in red that has a lord effect or haste. We have a few already but they are in black... I think they will continue to show love for goblins in the future - piledriver reprint was a clear aign of that. Since that didnt help us much i think they will hopefully try again at a decent goblin two drop.
Seriously...
RR
Haste
2/2
Is this too much to ask for?!
God forbid if it had an etb ability or first strike...
Or even another hasty 1 drop. Thats a little lofty though!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Kicked Bushwhacker - RR
Creature - Goblin Ally
When Kicked Bushwhacker enters the battlefield creatures you control get +1/+0 and gain haste until end of turn.
1/1 (or 1/2)
Still thinking about this...
What if:
Manacing Goblin - RB
Creature - Goblin Ally
Rally - When Manacing Goblin enters the battlefield creatures you control gain menace and haste until end of turn.
1/2
or something like
Smurfy, Goblin Lord - RB/RR/WR
Legendary Creature - Goblin Ally
Other Goblin creatures get +1/+1 and have menace.
2/2
The legendary supertype would let a merfolk-style lord in this tribe without developmental concerns regarding multiples in play.
And I think we'd be very close to tier 1.
I dabbled in pauper for a couple of years (where having a playset of both in your deck is a staple), and their power-level is sneakingly high.
Goblin of st traft. R
creature- goblin
haste.
when goblin of st traft attacks put a 1/1 goblin creature token onto the battlefield tapped and attacking, exile it at the end of the turn.
You are right - the success of this deck is our ability to balance burn while going wide with hasty goblins. Currently I think the Gruul builds most of us are tinkering with are pretty close to being as good as they can get, and are probably already there. People keep saying we can do better for the 2mana. Lets try this - what cards are you referring to?
If you are simply stating that Wizards needs to give us another good 2-drop, then on this we agree obviously.
Out of the cards we have available, I do not think we have a better option then. Unfortunately we have little to work with. I have thought about these two slots a great deal, even before we began this forum discussion.
This was the list of options I made for myself:
And Black gives us
The creme of the crop would be the following (imo - listed in order of value)
Raging Goblin
Ember Hauler / Goblin Wardriver
Goblin Glory Chaser / Bloodmark Mentor / Mudbrawler Cohort / Tattermunge Witch
Spike Jester is the clear winner if we splash into a third color. But it's power comes at a very high cost.
I would probably try those first...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
So what we have with the deck currently is 55/56 SOLID cards that are exactly what we want, and a relatively inefficient flex spot that isn't so great. In the spot you can use Piledrivers, Signal Pest, or Vexing Devil, but all three have definite weaknesses. We could opt for another burn spell for 2/3 of the slots by using Skullcrack (helps to shore up some of our weaknesses in the main deck), or we could splash for a third color and open up ourselves to a whole host of problems for Spike Jester (who's power is WAY up there). Basically, if we get just one more card on the spectrum of Guide, Loyalist, Foundry, or Bushwhacker, then we're 100% optimized and get to run all cards we WANT to be running, not just cards that we have to.
Would we play this?
'x'
R
When 'x' enters the battlefield, it does 1 damage to target creature or player.
When 'x' leaves the battlefield, it does 1 damage to target creature or player.
1/1
Too op?
Goblin Wardriver Is like a watered down Witch with the bonus of not costing additional mana to activate the ability. This is very playable imo in the MD
Mudbrawler Cohort and Raging Goblin probably both are fastest flex options, but have no abilities. Not sure if these would increase damage over Krenko's Command in our first 4 turns. I don't want to do math right now lol...
Ember Hauler - this is a good card in disguise I think, similar to Mogg Fanatic. This card has a good body (2/2), is resiliant against wipes and removal, can kill creatures that really need to die, and acts as a burn spell. Keep in mind the mana ratio to damage (Niall) is low if it doesn't get to swing or block. With a pump effect the card represents 5 damage for 3 mana - still far from the insane value of Goblin Grenade. This guy gives us a little bit of everything - filling some deck holes.
Mardu Scout is a lesser Spike Jester imitation, but this card is great at filling holes too. Excellent at playing around wipes, solid P/T, and haste if desired for an investment of mana...
Dragon Fodder is the simple choice to play to the decks strengths... but perhaps one of these can help address a weakness
Anyone consider Rancor? I am a fan of ghor-clan rampager over it, but hey why not bring it up
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
My issue with cards like Ember Hauler is that I really don't want to cast it on turn two. All of our other 2 drops we're fine with curving into, but Ember Hauler is a 2 drop that is secretly more of a 3-drop. Wardriver gets around this in that he can set us up for a really big turn three play, but EH lacks this same feature. Certainly he's worth some value (especially when blocking, etc.), but that one extra mana on his ability really brings down it's potential, imo.
In that battle between Mudbrawler and Raging Goblin, I think we take Raging Goblin, but that doesn't mean that either *really* want to be here. If either had any relevant abilities at all they'd be welcome inclusions (some sort of no block clause, mini pump, ping on enter or exit, anything).
I experimented before with Mardu Scout and it worked.. fine, so I might try to run it as a 2-of again (I hated three of them in my deck, but was always ok with the first one). In the pump spell slot I've got Ghor-Clan, and it's done serious work for me as both a removal spell and as a way to sneak damage through while retaining relevance in case the game goes long, bur Rancor is a sweet option to consider.
We as a community need to all hope and pray that wizards gives us SOMETHING in Oath, because with Innistrad coming up afterward we will have no goblins to look forward to as there are none on that plane. BUSHWHACKER/GUIDE II WIZARDS. DO IT. ZADA WAS COOL AND EVERYTHING, BUT WE NEED SOMETHING PLAYABLE. PLZ.
As for praying for a new goblin I cannot do this. I have been let down too many times! We better get used to what we have access to imo, because Wizards is a cold hearted B@!& when it comes to giving people what they want. Often it seems they don't do this, and when they do its when you least expect it or fulfills a half promise... Sometimes they give us what we need and we just don't even realize it because we are too hung up on filling an existing whole rather than analyzing what we can do with what we have! It was a long time before a no lords goblin list saw any sort of spotlight - and even now its still a rogue deck.
Eh... WTH - #goblinsneedlove
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I used a somewhat regular Atarka no-lord goblins with 1 Piledriver main and 1 sideboard. I had 3 fanatics main and 1 in the board with one copy of Stingscourger, Tin-Street, and two Frenzied Goblins in addition to Dismember, two Rending Volley, some Molten Rain, grave hate (Relic) and a single Pyrite Spellbomb. Otherwise, deck was an usual list with 4-ofs and 19 lands (4 copperline gorge, 6 fetchlands, 2 caverns, 2 stomping ground, 5 mountain). One of the mistakes was being too confidant in Atarka's Command as a mainboard anti-lifegain, and didn't pack any Pillar of Flames (Finks...!) or Flame Slash (Zoo) in the board for those pesky creatures. Needless to say, I ate finks and alike quite a bit.
My matchups were bad, at least in my opinion, and my subpar play didn't help either. I went 2-5, against the following opponents:
Round 1: 0 - 2 Abzan, couldn't go under him, kept shaky hands but it's hard after mulligan.
Round 2: 2 - 0 Infect, as usually, it turns out fanatics are good against infect. Easy match-up really.
Round 3: 0 - 2 Death & Taxes, he managed to lock me out game 1 via arbiter and land destruction, while taxing me in both games (3 mana bolt, thanks). Game 2 sideboard firewalker and friends got better out of me.
Round 4: 1 - 2 Zoo, he literally lava spiked me to the death in game 3, he was just bigger than me, and I couldn't race his threats since I cannot attack into those nacatls and apes, backed up by helix. Not a bad match-up, but a race that I simply lost.
Round 5: 0 - 2 Abzan CoCo (podless pod), yep, it's bad when he gets infinite life combo on turn 3, so I scooped game 1 (seer, finks, anafenza, no removal on my side). Game two guy played three (3) finks in a row. Good game.
Round 6: 1 - 2 GR Tron, a fellow countryman with whom we traveled to RPTQ, we played out in casual FNM atmosphere, he came out on top.
Round 7: 2 - 0 Infect, showing that this really is a strong match for us, especially if you are packing Fanatics.
There is not much more to add. I have to think more about sideboard before going to the tournament, as decks like atarka no lords are tight on the slots. Another thing where I need to improve is sideboarding - what to side out, when some hate is relevant, and so on. Magic is really deeper than I realized, there is always something to improve, learn, and conquer.
Otherwise, I'll walk right into the conversation, which I like since go goblins right!? I'm feeling the love for turn 3 version and will likely try the boros one with kytheons. Regarding token spells and new prints, there are some designs I would really love, like
and all other 2mana with lord effects you guys mentioned. I think they would see play in our decks, even something like 2mana 1/1, all attacking goblins get +1/+0, would do it. However, 2mana 2 or 3 power haster is not really new, we do have Spike Jester and we know how on-and-off we are about it. It is a removal magnet, albeit a fast clock that gets better with loyalist. Black splash is not really that hard (or painful), we got 8 painless dual lands, and we could use more fetchlands to keep green splash stable as well.
Some already played around with Jund No Lord goblins, including me, but it's hard to justify Jester over token makers. Both have pro's and con's, but I doubt a hasty 2drop without anything special or lord effect would push us to tiers. All in all, I'm loving all the activity here, and will look to represent the goblin tribe this weekend on two larger (150+ person) tournaments!