Also we had this brought up before but very little discussion into it. Collateral Damage seems like a solid testing card. Another burn spell that deals a lot of damage at INSTANT speed, while taking out another one of our many goblins on the board. What do you guys think?
It's fine, but there are just better options. Why run it over Lightning Bolt or Goblin Grenade? It's a cool spell that there just isn't room for in this deck. It sees standard play as a way of countering Bile Blight from board wiping you. There aren't spells like that seeing play in Modern, unless people start running Echoing Decay.
I'm going to have to agree with Ice on this one,
Collateral Damage is just a worse lightning bolt and like Ice said we have better options to run with the space we have. Furthermore, even though I don't agree with most of Nevelo's views I do acknowledge his point that Goblin Grenade's largest weakness is the need to sac a goblin and that without fuel it's a dead draw which is a trait Collateral Damage shares. But of course, it is an instant and is less of a dead draw with some no-lords lists since the sac'd creature doesn't have to be a goblin. To that degree, it has the leg up on Goblin Grenade and as MedRage has mentioned Shard Volley is a similar card to Collateral Damage and it sees modern play. Although, to me collateral damage just lacks the value we would want from a spell at that cost, again it's pretty much a worse lightning bolt and a situationally-better goblin grenade and its no contest that I'd much rather run the other 2.
I'm not shooting this idea down because I see its potential as an instant burn-combat trick that has more flexibility in some of the no lords list that we've seen posted. Comparably, I remember when Stoke the Flames was released we looked into similar possibilities and though it wasn't as great in testing to become a mainboard option a few of us (myself included) felt it was excellent sideboard material and keep it in our SBs still. Perhaps we could see some testing done on it possibly in builds that run non-goblins such as signal pest and eidolon of the great revel being that it doesn't require the sac'd creature to be a goblin.
A topical example is a comment regarding Reckless Abandon: "It would be super powerful, but i would love to see an instant version of this." source: gatherer. Keep in mind, if Collateral Damage had been printed as dealing 4 dmg (similar to stoke the flames) I'd be singing a much different tune.
I won against Scapeshift, bogles (oh man I was lucky I guess, or rather he didn't draw lifelink and got overrun), lost to GR tron only to beat another one (GR Tron...) in Round 4. Last match was against domain zoo which I barely managed to take with a 2 to 1 score. All in all, it was a great day for my goblins. As you can see, I built the deck based on hellakevin's No Lords Goblins, just changed a few cards here and there. Maybe our local meta was not prepared for the deck, but it was one heck of a ride.
MVP's of the day are following cards:
Atarka's Command - great card, and the fact that we are packing mainboard lifegain hate is also a big big plus. Completely changes the combat math, will think about using 4 mainboard, but that could be too much. 3 seems to be a magical number. The last copy comes in against lifegain.
Goblin Grenade - I topdecked a grenade and went over two Kor Firewalkers for the lethal vs domain zoo in game 3. Enough said. I wouldn't dare to take grenades out, in rare cases I sideboarded one out so I could pack more artifact/enchantment hate.
Goblin Bushwhacker - the facto the best card in the deck, no need to explain. A goblin that gives haste and +1/+0 for 2 mana, it's bonkers. You don't need chieftain, this is cheaper and more effective in a token heavy list.
Honorary mentions: Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command and Mogg War Marshal. Excellent with Bushwhacker, Goblin Grenade, Atarka's Command and after turn 1 Foundry Street. I made a small wannabe pro move and used the 2-2 split of Fodder and Krenko's Command - hey, if nothing else, extraction doesn't hit as hard, but ye I know, that's an extremely borderline case that ain't gonna happen any time soon but I felt like it matters, ha ha. Frenzied Goblin also does it's work. I manage to evade Spellskite for long enough to present lethal.
All in all, I wonder how we will incorporate Goblin Piledrive into modern goblins, but one of the best things about this token heavy deck is that our opponents don't have a decent target for their spot removal, other than guide and foundry, both of whom usually connect at least once if played on turn 1. The bogles opponent used three path to exiles on my tokens, imagine that. Piledrive, on the other hand, will be removal magnet, but that might be ok, since if he is not answered, it's good times for us. I was thinking of Spike Jester to put more pressure on our opponents, but there is much playtesting to be done before we can draw any conclusions. Tokens make piledriver bigger, but cards like Spike Jester can hit fast and hard on their own, and also contribute a little to piledriver.
Regarding the heated debate about various modern goblin decks, keep the ideas coming! The regulars here enjoy the in-depth debate about possible decks - the more we brainstorm, the better. Everyone is welcome to join the Gob_wagoon!
the worst case scenario you're describing, being against a green deck where they have answered your board, have a board, and aren't in burn range, is not a place you can win from playing goblins. instead of looking for a card that wins from there you should be looking for cards that decrease the likelihood of you being in that scenario in the first place. my 'best case scenario' (where they are in burn range) is the only time where all those things could have gone so wrong in which you can still even win.
I won against Scapeshift, bogles (oh man I was lucky I guess, or rather he didn't draw lifelink and got overrun), lost to GR tron only to beat another one (GR Tron...) in Round 4. Last match was against domain zoo which I barely managed to take with a 2 to 1 score. All in all, it was a great day for my goblins. As you can see, I built the deck based on hellakevin's No Lords Goblins, just changed a few cards here and there. Maybe our local meta was not prepared for the deck, but it was one heck of a ride.
MVP's of the day are following cards:
Atarka's Command - great card, and the fact that we are packing mainboard lifegain hate is also a big big plus. Completely changes the combat math, will think about using 4 mainboard, but that could be too much. 3 seems to be a magical number. The last copy comes in against lifegain.
Goblin Grenade - I topdecked a grenade and went over two Kor Firewalkers for the lethal vs domain zoo in game 3. Enough said. I wouldn't dare to take grenades out, in rare cases I sideboarded one out so I could pack more artifact/enchantment hate.
Goblin Bushwhacker - the facto the best card in the deck, no need to explain. A goblin that gives haste and +1/+0 for 2 mana, it's bonkers. You don't need chieftain, this is cheaper and more effective in a token heavy list.
Honorary mentions: Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command and Mogg War Marshal. Excellent with Bushwhacker, Goblin Grenade, Atarka's Command and after turn 1 Foundry Street. I made a small wannabe pro move and used the 2-2 split of Fodder and Krenko's Command - hey, if nothing else, extraction doesn't hit as hard, but ye I know, that's an extremely borderline case that ain't gonna happen any time soon but I felt like it matters, ha ha. Frenzied Goblin also does it's work. I manage to evade Spellskite for long enough to present lethal.
All in all, I wonder how we will incorporate Goblin Piledrive into modern goblins, but one of the best things about this token heavy deck is that our opponents don't have a decent target for their spot removal, other than guide and foundry, both of whom usually connect at least once if played on turn 1. The bogles opponent used three path to exiles on my tokens, imagine that. Piledrive, on the other hand, will be removal magnet, but that might be ok, since if he is not answered, it's good times for us. I was thinking of Spike Jester to put more pressure on our opponents, but there is much playtesting to be done before we can draw any conclusions. Tokens make piledriver bigger, but cards like Spike Jester can hit fast and hard on their own, and also contribute a little to piledriver.
Regarding the heated debate about various modern goblin decks, keep the ideas coming! The regulars here enjoy the in-depth debate about possible decks - the more we brainstorm, the better. Everyone is welcome to join the Gob_wagoon!
I was waiting for treach to start tweaking on hellakevin's no lords build like he usually does with new builds! Great to see you go 4-1 and come out in 1st at MM. From what you described your matches were exciting - congrats treach!
I just got back from our Modern Monday tournament, and out of 18 participants, I ended up being 1st with a 4-1 score. Here is the deck I used:...
Congrats dude... this exactly what our threads need. Not a stupid discussion about merging goblin-burn because 'grenade is a terrible top deck'.
'You know nothing Jon Sn... @Nevelo'!
goblin grenade is a great finisher. Of course doesnt work if u gonna build a deck with 12-15 creature/tokens. Often you gonna have granedes at had and no creature. My deck uses 31 creature, 2 grenades MD and 1 SB for fastest matchs. And i really happy about them
So, i anyone have an usefull idea, or a good build.. perhaps even a goblin-burn build, show us and argue about your points. Dont just say 'this is lame', 'this sucks'... why sucks? Why not? Show me results.
How often is Mogg War Marshal truly better than Krenko's Command or Dragon Fodder? On the plus side, it can block profitably and is good with Grenade, but it can be slower since the token it produces when it dies won't be able to attack that turn; and for this deck, that can really matter.
the worst case scenario you're describing, being against a green deck where they have answered your board, have a board, and aren't in burn range, is not a place you can win from playing goblins. instead of looking for a card that wins from there you should be looking for cards that decrease the likelihood of you being in that scenario in the first place. my 'best case scenario' (where they are in burn range) is the only time where all those things could have gone so wrong in which you can still even win.
But sometimes you're going to end up in that situation do you just immediately scoop? A card like shared Animosity can and does win from there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
i have been testing gobbos on xmage the past few days and it has been hard. i went from mono red to r/g (coco with and without atarka's command) to no lords to with lords to cheating them out with simian spirit guide / Pyretic Ritual.
out of 30 or so games i only won a handful as it seems to me that most modern decks are able to stablize as their creatures hold more quality. people are expecting goblin piledriver so they will leave open mana to path or bolt it.
many times my opponent is down to bolt or grenade range but the top deck never comes. i think the deck needs some form of cantrip.
from my observations:
key cards:
goblin grenade
legion loyalist
mogg war marshal
goblin bushwhacker
foundry street denizen
all of them no surprises.
piledriver needs trample to push damage through. which is why legion loyalist is such a key card. u guys should consider temur battle rage as a 1 or 2 off also. stoke to flames is also worth a 2nd look.
Thanks guys, this primer keeps me playing with the goblins and discussing with fellow greenskin chieftains! I really feel we improved the goblin deck in the last year or so, and that's just because of this thread.
I used to side out one or more Mogg War Marshals against creature-less or slower decks, like tron, scapeshift and so on, where I was looking to hit as fast and as hard as I could. On the other hand, Mogg War Marshal is the best blocker we have, and is very good in games against burn, zoo and other "fair" decks that attack on the ground. It can trade up with Goblin Guide and leave a token, or just chump and be ready to attack with both tokens on your next turn. However, all of those cards (MWM, Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command) are just great with Bushwhacker. Also, Mogg War Marshal is the only one out of the three that gets "protected" against counters with Caverns.. something somebody already mentioned, and Spell Snare is the biggest thread to our 2drops even when on the play.
And a word regarding Blood Moon and Shared Animosity. I find both cards to be good, and I even played with two Blood Moons main for a while (and three Shared Animosities, one MB two in side to swap with Blood Moons), but I chose to remove all 3drops from the deck and focused on the aggro side of the deck. Sure, Shared Animosity helps, especially with tokens, but so does Atarka's Command, which is just more diverse with it's three relevant modes. The only 3drop I had is one Dismember in my board, and looking at my lands, we know how much I pay for it. Blood Moon seemed a little of a win more against the decks that we would like it most. Sure, we can lock out tron, amulet or Jund/Abzan/Grixis on occasions, but we could just cast something else and win the next round.
I think those cards come down to personal preferences and local metagame, and as there are a few flex spots still available, we should try as many different approaches to see what yields the best results. Keep the discussion going!
I'm not against the idea of a couple of Temur Battle Rage, but they would generally require 2 other attackers w/the Piledriver or a Titan's Strength on a lone Piledriver to turn on the Trample effect. Yes, combat tricks suck when they kill/Path your dude, but honestly if you aren't already all in, are you playing Goblins?
What I'm saying is that the rest of the Goblins except for Guide and Rabblemaster (the latter a little slow) are pretty terrible. Legacy has the benefit of surrounding Piledriver with some really solid role players. I suppose you read me as being passive aggressive, but more of an observation after some theory crafting. Perhaps I'm just not being overly optimistic about the full-on tribal approach. You guys want to make Goblins work? I think using a burn structured build is the best approach. If you want to continue to run trap cards and go down the rabbit hole of tribal synergies be my guest. Just figured I'd throw some builds out there for people to consider.
As pointed out earlier, Leyline of Sanctity is certainly a thing. Dragon Claw actually helps make Mutagenic Growth a bit nicer too. I also like that Mutagenic can save Rabblemaster or a Lord or Piledriver from a Bolt. Losing out on 2 damage on the next swing vs losing out on however much one of them would have generated? Well worth it. Burn already has their game dialed in and does that better than we do. Goblin Grenade is reach. By the time people have fetched and shocked themselves down a few points and we have swung some guys, they are probably down to their last few health points. Grenade, Bolt, Titan's Strength to pump your guy, I don't hate them for helping get the last few points across the finish line. Piledriver, Guide and Rabblemaster isn't enough goblins in the deck to consistently have Piledriver w/many buddies. Yes, the token generators help if you are running them, but if you aren't going "down the rabbit hole of tribal synergies", again...are you playing Goblins?
I did love Reckless Abandon during Urza's block. Didn't have the kind of goblin presence we had during Onslaught block, but the art was great and it was just a point down from Grenade AND you could sac any creature. If you gave burn a card that said "CC:R, sac a creature, do 5 damage" or even "CC:R, pay 3 life, do 5 damage", they would promptly slap 4 copies in their deck. Goblins are like Skaven in WHFB, life is cheap. You can always make more Goblins and when you do, you sac them to kill your opponent.
Fireblast is 1 less damage and I'd say it's a more risky play than Grenade. It sees play in Goblins/Burn decks in both format it's legal (Legacy and Pauper).
I really miss Fireblast. Double Fireblast to leave nothing else in play is a great way to win. Then again, I still run a Kaervek's Spite in my Pox deck. My friends and I used to run it in Suicide Black. If nothing else it makes the game a lot shorter and keeps you from hitting time, compared w/yet another turn of maybe I get them for some rack damage or hit w/a Factory. The dream for a B/R deck for me would be tap all 4 B/R duals (Badlands, Blood Crypt, whatever) to float mana, sac 2 for Fireblast, sac another 2 for Fireblast, sac my whole board and hand for Spite. 13 to 0 in one turn. Ahh, life in Magical Christmasland
I'm not against the idea of a couple of Temur Battle Rage, but they would generally require 2 other attackers w/the Piledriver or a Titan's Strength on a lone Piledriver to turn on the Trample effect. Yes, combat tricks suck when they kill/Path your dude, but honestly if you aren't already all in, are you playing Goblins?
As pointed out earlier, Leyline of Sanctity is certainly a thing. Dragon Claw actually helps make Mutagenic Growth a bit nicer too. I also like that Mutagenic can save Rabblemaster or a Lord or Piledriver from a Bolt. Losing out on 2 damage on the next swing vs losing out on however much one of them would have generated? Well worth it. Burn already has their game dialed in and does that better than we do. Goblin Grenade is reach. By the time people have fetched and shocked themselves down a few points and we have swung some guys, they are probably down to their last few health points. Grenade, Bolt, Titan's Strength to pump your guy, I don't hate them for helping get the last few points across the finish line. Piledriver, Guide and Rabblemaster isn't enough goblins in the deck to consistently have Piledriver w/many buddies. Yes, the token generators help if you are running them, but if you aren't going "down the rabbit hole of tribal synergies", again...are you playing Goblins?
I did love Reckless Abandon during Urza's block. Didn't have the kind of goblin presence we had during Onslaught block, but the art was great and it was just a point down from Grenade AND you could sac any creature. If you gave burn a card that said "CC:R, sac a creature, do 5 damage" or even "CC:R, pay 3 life, do 5 damage", they would promptly slap 4 copies in their deck. Goblins are like Skaven in WHFB, life is cheap. You can always make more Goblins and when you do, you sac them to kill your opponent.
I really miss Fireblast. Double Fireblast to leave nothing else in play is a great way to win. Then again, I still run a Kaervek's Spite in my Pox deck. My friends and I used to run it in Suicide Black. If nothing else it makes the game a lot shorter and keeps you from hitting time, compared w/yet another turn of maybe I get them for some rack damage or hit w/a Factory. The dream for a B/R deck for me would be tap all 4 B/R duals (Badlands, Blood Crypt, whatever) to float mana, sac 2 for Fireblast, sac another 2 for Fireblast, sac my whole board and hand for Spite. 13 to 0 in one turn. Ahh, life in Magical Christmasland
WORD.
I was running 2 copies of Fireblast during my initial playtesting phase with my playgroup to get a feel of my gobbo deck and it was a superstar whenever I drew it. This is a reason why I mentioned Stoke to Flames as a possible modern replacement... or until they reprint it =P
Back during Tempest + Urza Block STD, I ran 4 x Reckless Abandon and 4 x Blood Frenzy in my Gobbo deck. Good times. =P
i tested mainboard BM in gobbos with simian spirit guide to toss it out on turn 2 (or use it to power bushwhacker) but it became a mid range-ish deck because i like the synergy with goblin king. too many 3 drops slow the deck down somewhat. which is not necessarily a bad thing but gobbos do not generate other advantages like other tribal decks (elves have ramp, merfolk has bounce) other than pure aggression.
Concerning Grenade: Fireblast and Shard Volley sacrifice land. Completely different type of cost. Fling saw extremely little play in 2011. Your not building a case here. Grenade has been legal in Legacy and Modern since the dawn of time and it has seen no high level competitive results (at least as far back as most databases have). And to be clear, by high level I'm speaking of GP/SCG Open level tournaments. At the end of the day, if it works for you 90% of the time, that's still 10% you lose on its inconsistency. As anyone who has played burn a lot, inconsistency is not what you want in a burn spell.
Turning a corner, let my try a different approach to building a deck using the Legacy Goblins deck as a template:
Legacy Goblins Breakdown
Creatures 4 Goblin Lackey: No viable equivalent. Warren Instigator is way too slow. 4 Goblin Matron: Boggart Harbringer does a pretty decent impression. 4 Goblin Ringleader: No direct parallel, but I think Collected Company does a pretty good imitation. 3 Goblin Piledriver 3 Goblin Warchief: No direct parallel. 3 Mogg War Marshal 2 Gempalm Incinerator: No direct parallel. 1 Goblin Chieftain 2 Siege Gang Commander: Likely a bit too slow without Lackey. 1 Krenko, Mob Boss: Seems cute and too slow for the format. 1 Goblin Sharpshooter: No direct parallel
Spells 4 Aether Vial: Modern Legal, though like Krenko, I think it's likely a bit too slow without the mana denial lockdown that the legacy deck has. Going a Collected Company route is probably better. 3 Goblin Tarfire: Modern Legal. 2 Damage is much better in legacy, but this does have synergy with our goblin tutor. 2 Pyrokenesis: No viable equivalent.
23 Land 4 Rashadan Port: No direct parallel 4 Wasteland: No direct parallel, but a couple Ghost Quarter might be worth adding. 4 Cavern of Souls
We cannot replicate the Port / Wasteland + Vial approach in modern, so the deck has to take on a faster aggro approach. With a higher creature count, we can benefit from some of the utility lands like Cavern of Souls and Mutavault.
Guide, Loyalist, Piledriver, and Rabblemaster form the core. War Marshal and Bushwacker fill out the count giving us a bit of width and explosiveness.
Since we are running Boggart Harbringer, having some 1-ofs to fetch seems like good value. So I've added a Tin Street Hooligan, Chieftain, Vexing Shusher, and a Goblin Tarfire as targets.
I've gone with a Collected Company approach with a higher creature count here. Collected Company serves as our Ringleader style card advantage. Flashing in a Rabblemaster and Piledriver seems pretty good. As a result of Company (and not having access to Lackey), I cut the clunker 4 and 5 drops.
Lightning Bolt fills out the rest. Legacy runs Tarfires in this spot, due to synergy with Ringleader and Matron. 3 damage is more relevant to Modern, and we don't have Ringleader.
Honestly, not sure if it's actually better than a more burn style approach. There are a lot more creature based decks in Modern, and the lack of an effective lockdown stategy makes getting an unopposed board very much more difficult. Though, Loyalist triggers do help a bit in fighting through this with first striking Piledriver's and Rabblemasters.
i tested mainboard BM in gobbos with simian spirit guide to toss it out on turn 2 (or use it to power bushwhacker) but it became a mid range-ish deck because i like the synergy with goblin king. too many 3 drops slow the deck down somewhat. which is not necessarily a bad thing but gobbos do not generate other advantages like other tribal decks (elves have ramp, merfolk has bounce) other than pure aggression.
I don't like Simian Spirit Guide. You are trowing away a card to get out BM on T2, so you aren't playing a Goblin on T2 (I find T2 to be crucial), and it's a terrible topdeck. You want to apply pressure first, make your opponent go deep into his resources. If those resources aren't enough to stop you, you win, if those resources keep you in check, there is Blood Moon to mess up those resources.
If you want to compare Goblins with other tribes; Elves have ramp, in combination with easy access to outlets and ways to migitate boardwhipes. Merfolk have pseudo ramp with Vial, and can play a disruptive game while maintaining decent to heavy pressure. Goblins have extreme explosiveness, and access Blood Moon (I could do a more in depth comparisment, but that will not gain this discussion alot)
Valid point with regards to BM + SSG. However, the times when I start my hand with SSG or drew into it during T2 or T3, it allowed me to push for Bushwhacker + Kicker + 1 more gobbo onto the table (eg, Denizen / Loyalist.) Granted, its a terrible card to draw into after turn 5 but its a good card to have before.
What you are suggesting is for goblins to take a bit of a midrang-ier approach, which is something I tried quite a few times and would love to see succeed. There is a Vial goblins primer on MTGS, you should check that out as well. Needless to say, I feel like taking Legacy goblins and transition it into modern is not the way to go. I tried a few times and it comes down to Krenko combo or lose. However, with the addition of Piledriver, we could be onto something. We should build with modern metagame and card selection in mind, not trying to copy legacy goblins. I do agree that Goblin Grenade loses value in "midrange" decks, and I usually played 1 or none in those kind of decks. But in aggro, it should be a 4-of staple.
Anyhow, I feel like the SCG States deck (link) could be a good base to start from, since it has control elements (Blood Moon) while being able to explode off of Warren Instigator. Many don't favor the mythic wannabe lackey, myself included, but he might be much needed in this kind of decks, as he usually eats removal, but if not, you're on the roll. Piledriver fits nicely into this deck, as would Krenko. Don't know about vial, but CoCo seems better, only because we have no other card advantage. Vial in combination with Lead the Stampede ain't bad as well, but it's a sorcery (but vialing in isn't, hehe). There is much to consider.
On the side note, I had mixed results with Boggart Harbinger. It's faaar worse than Matron and is only decent EOT off the vial, otherwise it feels clunky and usually ends up being a chump blocker. But when he shines, he won me games with tutoring Krenko, Chieftain or King.
Regarding Krenko's Command, Dragon Fodder and Mogg War Marshals in aggro decks, first I though they performed badly as well (so I played Rakdos with Spike Jesters), but just yesterday, I had only token makers (and a fanatic I think) in my starting hand of one of the games, and it payed off with two Bushwhackers and a Grenade to finish the opponent. In other game, I went wide and played only token makers for a few turns against bogles and tron, and bushwhacker/Atarka's Command sealed the deal. Also, when you have your opponent on low life, tokens can chump-block till you topdeck a finisher, or die trying. Needless to say, when it comes to topdecking against slower or more controlling decks, it's game over more or less either way, and it comes down to what you draw.
This is Magic that we love. Now I would like to see midrange attrition-alike goblins to become a thing, since I'm kinda sick of playing linear aggro all the time, but I'll never stop playing goblins. Btw, I tried goblins in Jund shell as well (discard + removal package with Rabblemasters, Krenko's and so on), and it wasn't as good as it sounds (and it doesn't sound that good to start with). Another idea I have is Mardu tokens with Butcher of the Horde as a curve topper, with all the goblin token makers and lords. Of course, we can use spot removal, sweepers and/or discard in the Mardu colors. It would play like BW Tokens, just with goblins and Butcher of the Horde and/or Krenko after you land a lord or two. Those are just ideas and might turn out as bad ones, but you never know until you try.
How often is Mogg War Marshal truly better than Krenko's Command or Dragon Fodder? On the plus side, it can block profitably and is good with Grenade, but it can be slower since the token it produces when it dies won't be able to attack that turn; and for this deck, that can really matter.
Mogg can be cast off of Cavern of Souls.
Mogg pumps Foundry for free the turn after he’s played (if you don’t pay his echo).
Mogg is a perfect chump blocker; more often than not – I’m happy to see my opponent attack into him.
With that said – I think Piledriver is going to take his place in a lot of builds.
As far as Blood Moon main board - many months ago I ran it. And it’s very powerful in the current meta. I’d be in what looked like unwinninable games and cast it and have the opponent concede because he had no answer for it. I suspect the SCG list that’s posted a few times on here got there because of the mainboard BMs.
I don’t run it because Im focusing on building to kill the opponent on turn 3 and need as much damage output as I can squeeze into the deck. But I’m considering putting it in since it can win on turn 3 as well. No damage needed.
The one big advantage of Warren Instigator is. he draws removal like no other. To me – the more creatures that are must remove – the more headaches we cause for the opponent. With that said – his lack of haste keeps him out of most of my builds. He excelled in the SCG list because it was almost nothing but threats; but as mentioned – I imagine the star city games list got there off of the maindeck Blood Moons.
I personally like Simian Spirit Guide Even though he clunks up my hand from time to time. He makes turn 3 kills way more probable. A turn 1 piledriver is almost a guaranteed turn 3 kill. The biggest issue is the 2 for 1 thing. You cast the Piledriver – he gets bolted – you’ve now 2 for 1 yourself.
To me – the risk is worth it though. Even higher if you’re running Blood Moon. Players expect turn 3 blood moon when playing against Red decks. They don’t expect turn 2 Blood Moon.
Maybe 4x mainboard Blood Moon is the way to go. Sort of gives the deck the lockdown element that makes the Legacy version good. I think I'd cut the Bushwacker and Tarfire to make room from my legacy port list.
Idk if I would cut bushwhackers in this meta, but I'm not opposed to a slightly slower list with Blood moon and King in the mb, especially not in the sb. They're cards that can lock and swing past blockers for massive amounts of damage in the current meta.
I'm going to have to agree with Ice on this one,
Collateral Damage is just a worse lightning bolt and like Ice said we have better options to run with the space we have. Furthermore, even though I don't agree with most of Nevelo's views I do acknowledge his point that Goblin Grenade's largest weakness is the need to sac a goblin and that without fuel it's a dead draw which is a trait Collateral Damage shares. But of course, it is an instant and is less of a dead draw with some no-lords lists since the sac'd creature doesn't have to be a goblin. To that degree, it has the leg up on Goblin Grenade and as MedRage has mentioned Shard Volley is a similar card to Collateral Damage and it sees modern play. Although, to me collateral damage just lacks the value we would want from a spell at that cost, again it's pretty much a worse lightning bolt and a situationally-better goblin grenade and its no contest that I'd much rather run the other 2.
I'm not shooting this idea down because I see its potential as an instant burn-combat trick that has more flexibility in some of the no lords list that we've seen posted. Comparably, I remember when Stoke the Flames was released we looked into similar possibilities and though it wasn't as great in testing to become a mainboard option a few of us (myself included) felt it was excellent sideboard material and keep it in our SBs still. Perhaps we could see some testing done on it possibly in builds that run non-goblins such as signal pest and eidolon of the great revel being that it doesn't require the sac'd creature to be a goblin.
A topical example is a comment regarding Reckless Abandon: "It would be super powerful, but i would love to see an instant version of this." source: gatherer. Keep in mind, if Collateral Damage had been printed as dealing 4 dmg (similar to stoke the flames) I'd be singing a much different tune.
1x Akki Avalanchers
4x Foundry Street Denizen
1x Frenzied Goblin
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshal
Sorcery (8)
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Krenko's Command
2x Dragon Fodder
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Copperline Gorge
7x Mountain
1x Rootbound Crag
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (7)
3x Atarka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Atarka's Command
3x Destructive Revelry
1x Dismember
1x Frenzied Goblin
2x Pillar of Flame
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Rending Volley
1x Tin Street Hooligan
I won against Scapeshift, bogles (oh man I was lucky I guess, or rather he didn't draw lifelink and got overrun), lost to GR tron only to beat another one (GR Tron...) in Round 4. Last match was against domain zoo which I barely managed to take with a 2 to 1 score. All in all, it was a great day for my goblins. As you can see, I built the deck based on hellakevin's No Lords Goblins, just changed a few cards here and there. Maybe our local meta was not prepared for the deck, but it was one heck of a ride.
MVP's of the day are following cards:
Atarka's Command - great card, and the fact that we are packing mainboard lifegain hate is also a big big plus. Completely changes the combat math, will think about using 4 mainboard, but that could be too much. 3 seems to be a magical number. The last copy comes in against lifegain.
Goblin Grenade - I topdecked a grenade and went over two Kor Firewalkers for the lethal vs domain zoo in game 3. Enough said. I wouldn't dare to take grenades out, in rare cases I sideboarded one out so I could pack more artifact/enchantment hate.
Goblin Bushwhacker - the facto the best card in the deck, no need to explain. A goblin that gives haste and +1/+0 for 2 mana, it's bonkers. You don't need chieftain, this is cheaper and more effective in a token heavy list.
Honorary mentions: Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command and Mogg War Marshal. Excellent with Bushwhacker, Goblin Grenade, Atarka's Command and after turn 1 Foundry Street. I made a small wannabe pro move and used the 2-2 split of Fodder and Krenko's Command - hey, if nothing else, extraction doesn't hit as hard, but ye I know, that's an extremely borderline case that ain't gonna happen any time soon but I felt like it matters, ha ha. Frenzied Goblin also does it's work. I manage to evade Spellskite for long enough to present lethal.
All in all, I wonder how we will incorporate Goblin Piledrive into modern goblins, but one of the best things about this token heavy deck is that our opponents don't have a decent target for their spot removal, other than guide and foundry, both of whom usually connect at least once if played on turn 1. The bogles opponent used three path to exiles on my tokens, imagine that. Piledrive, on the other hand, will be removal magnet, but that might be ok, since if he is not answered, it's good times for us. I was thinking of Spike Jester to put more pressure on our opponents, but there is much playtesting to be done before we can draw any conclusions. Tokens make piledriver bigger, but cards like Spike Jester can hit fast and hard on their own, and also contribute a little to piledriver.
Regarding the heated debate about various modern goblin decks, keep the ideas coming! The regulars here enjoy the in-depth debate about possible decks - the more we brainstorm, the better. Everyone is welcome to join the Gob_wagoon!
I was waiting for treach to start tweaking on hellakevin's no lords build like he usually does with new builds! Great to see you go 4-1 and come out in 1st at MM. From what you described your matches were exciting - congrats treach!
Congrats dude... this exactly what our threads need. Not a stupid discussion about merging goblin-burn because 'grenade is a terrible top deck'.
'You know nothing Jon Sn... @Nevelo'!
goblin grenade is a great finisher. Of course doesnt work if u gonna build a deck with 12-15 creature/tokens. Often you gonna have granedes at had and no creature. My deck uses 31 creature, 2 grenades MD and 1 SB for fastest matchs. And i really happy about them
So, i anyone have an usefull idea, or a good build.. perhaps even a goblin-burn build, show us and argue about your points. Dont just say 'this is lame', 'this sucks'... why sucks? Why not? Show me results.
Cya
Modern
RBW Goblins
XU ArcMUD
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
But sometimes you're going to end up in that situation do you just immediately scoop? A card like shared Animosity can and does win from there.
out of 30 or so games i only won a handful as it seems to me that most modern decks are able to stablize as their creatures hold more quality. people are expecting goblin piledriver so they will leave open mana to path or bolt it.
many times my opponent is down to bolt or grenade range but the top deck never comes. i think the deck needs some form of cantrip.
from my observations:
key cards:
goblin grenade
legion loyalist
mogg war marshal
goblin bushwhacker
foundry street denizen
all of them no surprises.
piledriver needs trample to push damage through. which is why legion loyalist is such a key card. u guys should consider temur battle rage as a 1 or 2 off also. stoke to flames is also worth a 2nd look.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I used to side out one or more Mogg War Marshals against creature-less or slower decks, like tron, scapeshift and so on, where I was looking to hit as fast and as hard as I could. On the other hand, Mogg War Marshal is the best blocker we have, and is very good in games against burn, zoo and other "fair" decks that attack on the ground. It can trade up with Goblin Guide and leave a token, or just chump and be ready to attack with both tokens on your next turn. However, all of those cards (MWM, Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command) are just great with Bushwhacker. Also, Mogg War Marshal is the only one out of the three that gets "protected" against counters with Caverns.. something somebody already mentioned, and Spell Snare is the biggest thread to our 2drops even when on the play.
And a word regarding Blood Moon and Shared Animosity. I find both cards to be good, and I even played with two Blood Moons main for a while (and three Shared Animosities, one MB two in side to swap with Blood Moons), but I chose to remove all 3drops from the deck and focused on the aggro side of the deck. Sure, Shared Animosity helps, especially with tokens, but so does Atarka's Command, which is just more diverse with it's three relevant modes. The only 3drop I had is one Dismember in my board, and looking at my lands, we know how much I pay for it. Blood Moon seemed a little of a win more against the decks that we would like it most. Sure, we can lock out tron, amulet or Jund/Abzan/Grixis on occasions, but we could just cast something else and win the next round.
I think those cards come down to personal preferences and local metagame, and as there are a few flex spots still available, we should try as many different approaches to see what yields the best results. Keep the discussion going!
As pointed out earlier, Leyline of Sanctity is certainly a thing. Dragon Claw actually helps make Mutagenic Growth a bit nicer too. I also like that Mutagenic can save Rabblemaster or a Lord or Piledriver from a Bolt. Losing out on 2 damage on the next swing vs losing out on however much one of them would have generated? Well worth it. Burn already has their game dialed in and does that better than we do. Goblin Grenade is reach. By the time people have fetched and shocked themselves down a few points and we have swung some guys, they are probably down to their last few health points. Grenade, Bolt, Titan's Strength to pump your guy, I don't hate them for helping get the last few points across the finish line. Piledriver, Guide and Rabblemaster isn't enough goblins in the deck to consistently have Piledriver w/many buddies. Yes, the token generators help if you are running them, but if you aren't going "down the rabbit hole of tribal synergies", again...are you playing Goblins?
I did love Reckless Abandon during Urza's block. Didn't have the kind of goblin presence we had during Onslaught block, but the art was great and it was just a point down from Grenade AND you could sac any creature. If you gave burn a card that said "CC:R, sac a creature, do 5 damage" or even "CC:R, pay 3 life, do 5 damage", they would promptly slap 4 copies in their deck. Goblins are like Skaven in WHFB, life is cheap. You can always make more Goblins and when you do, you sac them to kill your opponent.
I really miss Fireblast. Double Fireblast to leave nothing else in play is a great way to win. Then again, I still run a Kaervek's Spite in my Pox deck. My friends and I used to run it in Suicide Black. If nothing else it makes the game a lot shorter and keeps you from hitting time, compared w/yet another turn of maybe I get them for some rack damage or hit w/a Factory. The dream for a B/R deck for me would be tap all 4 B/R duals (Badlands, Blood Crypt, whatever) to float mana, sac 2 for Fireblast, sac another 2 for Fireblast, sac my whole board and hand for Spite. 13 to 0 in one turn. Ahh, life in Magical Christmasland
WORD.
I was running 2 copies of Fireblast during my initial playtesting phase with my playgroup to get a feel of my gobbo deck and it was a superstar whenever I drew it. This is a reason why I mentioned Stoke to Flames as a possible modern replacement... or until they reprint it =P
Back during Tempest + Urza Block STD, I ran 4 x Reckless Abandon and 4 x Blood Frenzy in my Gobbo deck. Good times. =P
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
i am contemplating splashing blue for day's undoing for the hyper aggro variants...
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Turning a corner, let my try a different approach to building a deck using the Legacy Goblins deck as a template:
Legacy Goblins Breakdown
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey: No viable equivalent. Warren Instigator is way too slow.
4 Goblin Matron: Boggart Harbringer does a pretty decent impression.
4 Goblin Ringleader: No direct parallel, but I think Collected Company does a pretty good imitation.
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief: No direct parallel.
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Gempalm Incinerator: No direct parallel.
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege Gang Commander: Likely a bit too slow without Lackey.
1 Krenko, Mob Boss: Seems cute and too slow for the format.
1 Goblin Sharpshooter: No direct parallel
Spells
4 Aether Vial: Modern Legal, though like Krenko, I think it's likely a bit too slow without the mana denial lockdown that the legacy deck has. Going a Collected Company route is probably better.
3 Goblin Tarfire: Modern Legal. 2 Damage is much better in legacy, but this does have synergy with our goblin tutor.
2 Pyrokenesis: No viable equivalent.
23 Land
4 Rashadan Port: No direct parallel
4 Wasteland: No direct parallel, but a couple Ghost Quarter might be worth adding.
4 Cavern of Souls
Other
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Guide
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Boggart Harbinger
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Tarfire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Collected Company
Lands (23)
1 Blood Crypt
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Mountain
2 Mutavault
2 Stomping Ground
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wooded Foothills
We cannot replicate the Port / Wasteland + Vial approach in modern, so the deck has to take on a faster aggro approach. With a higher creature count, we can benefit from some of the utility lands like Cavern of Souls and Mutavault.
Guide, Loyalist, Piledriver, and Rabblemaster form the core. War Marshal and Bushwacker fill out the count giving us a bit of width and explosiveness.
Since we are running Boggart Harbringer, having some 1-ofs to fetch seems like good value. So I've added a Tin Street Hooligan, Chieftain, Vexing Shusher, and a Goblin Tarfire as targets.
I've gone with a Collected Company approach with a higher creature count here. Collected Company serves as our Ringleader style card advantage. Flashing in a Rabblemaster and Piledriver seems pretty good. As a result of Company (and not having access to Lackey), I cut the clunker 4 and 5 drops.
Lightning Bolt fills out the rest. Legacy runs Tarfires in this spot, due to synergy with Ringleader and Matron. 3 damage is more relevant to Modern, and we don't have Ringleader.
Honestly, not sure if it's actually better than a more burn style approach. There are a lot more creature based decks in Modern, and the lack of an effective lockdown stategy makes getting an unopposed board very much more difficult. Though, Loyalist triggers do help a bit in fighting through this with first striking Piledriver's and Rabblemasters.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Valid point with regards to BM + SSG. However, the times when I start my hand with SSG or drew into it during T2 or T3, it allowed me to push for Bushwhacker + Kicker + 1 more gobbo onto the table (eg, Denizen / Loyalist.) Granted, its a terrible card to draw into after turn 5 but its a good card to have before.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
Anyhow, I feel like the SCG States deck (link) could be a good base to start from, since it has control elements (Blood Moon) while being able to explode off of Warren Instigator. Many don't favor the mythic wannabe lackey, myself included, but he might be much needed in this kind of decks, as he usually eats removal, but if not, you're on the roll. Piledriver fits nicely into this deck, as would Krenko. Don't know about vial, but CoCo seems better, only because we have no other card advantage. Vial in combination with Lead the Stampede ain't bad as well, but it's a sorcery (but vialing in isn't, hehe). There is much to consider.
On the side note, I had mixed results with Boggart Harbinger. It's faaar worse than Matron and is only decent EOT off the vial, otherwise it feels clunky and usually ends up being a chump blocker. But when he shines, he won me games with tutoring Krenko, Chieftain or King.
Regarding Krenko's Command, Dragon Fodder and Mogg War Marshals in aggro decks, first I though they performed badly as well (so I played Rakdos with Spike Jesters), but just yesterday, I had only token makers (and a fanatic I think) in my starting hand of one of the games, and it payed off with two Bushwhackers and a Grenade to finish the opponent. In other game, I went wide and played only token makers for a few turns against bogles and tron, and bushwhacker/Atarka's Command sealed the deal. Also, when you have your opponent on low life, tokens can chump-block till you topdeck a finisher, or die trying. Needless to say, when it comes to topdecking against slower or more controlling decks, it's game over more or less either way, and it comes down to what you draw.
This is Magic that we love. Now I would like to see midrange attrition-alike goblins to become a thing, since I'm kinda sick of playing linear aggro all the time, but I'll never stop playing goblins. Btw, I tried goblins in Jund shell as well (discard + removal package with Rabblemasters, Krenko's and so on), and it wasn't as good as it sounds (and it doesn't sound that good to start with). Another idea I have is Mardu tokens with Butcher of the Horde as a curve topper, with all the goblin token makers and lords. Of course, we can use spot removal, sweepers and/or discard in the Mardu colors. It would play like BW Tokens, just with goblins and Butcher of the Horde and/or Krenko after you land a lord or two. Those are just ideas and might turn out as bad ones, but you never know until you try.
Mogg can be cast off of Cavern of Souls.
Mogg pumps Foundry for free the turn after he’s played (if you don’t pay his echo).
Mogg is a perfect chump blocker; more often than not – I’m happy to see my opponent attack into him.
With that said – I think Piledriver is going to take his place in a lot of builds.
As far as Blood Moon main board - many months ago I ran it. And it’s very powerful in the current meta. I’d be in what looked like unwinninable games and cast it and have the opponent concede because he had no answer for it. I suspect the SCG list that’s posted a few times on here got there because of the mainboard BMs.
I don’t run it because Im focusing on building to kill the opponent on turn 3 and need as much damage output as I can squeeze into the deck. But I’m considering putting it in since it can win on turn 3 as well. No damage needed.
The one big advantage of Warren Instigator is. he draws removal like no other. To me – the more creatures that are must remove – the more headaches we cause for the opponent. With that said – his lack of haste keeps him out of most of my builds. He excelled in the SCG list because it was almost nothing but threats; but as mentioned – I imagine the star city games list got there off of the maindeck Blood Moons.
I personally like Simian Spirit Guide Even though he clunks up my hand from time to time. He makes turn 3 kills way more probable. A turn 1 piledriver is almost a guaranteed turn 3 kill. The biggest issue is the 2 for 1 thing. You cast the Piledriver – he gets bolted – you’ve now 2 for 1 yourself.
To me – the risk is worth it though. Even higher if you’re running Blood Moon. Players expect turn 3 blood moon when playing against Red decks. They don’t expect turn 2 Blood Moon.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn