And to answer your question, I actually do think bant bogles could be a thing should we ever get a blue gladecover or something of the ilk. I always hear people refer to Bogles as a green deck and I assume it's largely in part due to the fact that our hexproof dudes are green. However if we were to hypothetically have access to a white or blue hexproof 1 drop, I think it'd be totally plausible to have successful UW lists running around. That's not to ***** on Rancor or Spider Umbra as they're two of my favorite cards that we play, but Gladecover is the main reason why we play green in the first place. I have no idea whether or not a new U/W 1 drop hexproofer would be enough to make that prototypical list stray away from GW, but I certainly think it would give plenty of incentive to try. I'd still want to splash green for Rancor, Spider, Teeg; the biggest problem the deck has splashing a third color currently is the fact that we're lucky to see more than 3 lands in many games. On paper it seems like having a "blue gladecover" could mitigate some of the risk associated with adding another color (green in this example) as we can still drop a T1 Bogle if our opening hand includes one of the green sources we'd be running. It's definitely interesting to think about.
What else could Bogles benefit from? More cheap Auras? Or more sideboard help?
I was thinking about Horizon Canopy and what if it had been like one of the other allied lands from Future Sight. Graven Cairns wouldn't work, neither would Nimbus Maze. I think River of Tears would be iffy depending on how it was worded. Only the Grove of the Burnwillows format would have worked as well. Curious if we'll see any new lands in Modern Horizon that help. I think the card draw from Horizon Canopy makes it superior to a Green-White Grove of the Burnwillows.
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----- "I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
Interesting read regarding the London mulligan, how it benefits decks like Bogles and just a lot of solid statistics to consider. A few noteworthy excerpts:
-----------------
"If you are willing to mulligan into oblivion, then you were only 86.5% to find a Leyline under the Vancouver mulligan rule, with an average starting hand of 5.22 cards. Under the London mulligan rule, you’re 97.2% to find a Leyline, with an average starting hand of 5.55 cards. Another way to put it: the odds of missing seven hands in a row with the Vancouver mulligan is 13.5%, but the odds of missing seven hands in a row with the London mulligan is only 2.8%. That’s a huge difference".
"Consider the following model of a combo deck:
20 lands
8 copies of combo piece A
8 copies of combo piece B
24 other spells
Lots of Modern decks can be modeled in this way. For example:
In Bogles, combo piece A could be a hexproof creature (Slippery Bogle or Gladecover Scout), and combo piece B could be one of the best Auras (Ethereal Armor or Daybreak Coronet). The specifics of the deck don’t really matter, but the mulligan strategy does. I assume that we keep if and only if our hand contains at least one of each combo piece and at least two lands. This is what I define as a good opening hand.
If you use this mulligan strategy but keep any four card hand, then you would keep 5.08 cards on average under the Vancouver rule, compared to 5.32 cards on average under the London rule.
So under the London rule, you will be able to sculpt a perfect opening hand (i.e., a hand with one of each combo piece and at least two lands) substantially more often, and you end up with larger hands on average. If you mulligan aggressively, you’re 70.46% to end up with such a perfect opening hand".
"Under either mulligan rule, you have a 39.9% to find at least one of your four Leylines in your starting seven. But if you are willing to mulligan down to a certain number of cards, then the odds of finding a Leyline go up dramatically"
---------------------
Obviously as a deck that often lives/dies on mulligans, Bogles would instantly benefit from the London mull as the chance of us finding just a functional opening hand increases dramatically. In our particular situation, the new mull would afford the opportunity for some selectivity in addition to the inherent increased consistency. After game 1, arguably all decks benefit from the London mull assuming effective SB answers are in place. However, it would seem as though the rule would lean in our favor (as well as any other deck where finding their particular leyline G2/G3 can make a significant difference) more so than others. Similarly, as a deck that can be crippled by T1 Thoughtseize, the chance to find an opening hand with redundancy G2/G3 can make a significant difference when we're on the draw.
Something that wasn't specifically touched on in the article was how/if the London mull would affect the construction of SBs. Theoretically, a greater chance to find our hate cards would suggest the possibility of running less copies of X in favor of including one copy of Y in order to cover more bases. However in regards to Bogles specifically, I'm curious if it'd be wiser to stick to the typical SB plan and enjoy the increased probability of finding something ran as a 4-of or potentially trimming down the SB in order to accommodate a wider variety of options? Overall, I'm really looking forward to seeing how this plays out should WotC officially declare the London mull law in the paper world, but also a bit worried that problematic cards such as Serum Powder or Leylines could be axed from the format in order to accommodate the change. Interested to hear what yall think about how the the London mull could benefit/harm our overall gameplan/place in the meta.
First, I want to say I've been reading this thread for a while and I want to say thanks to everyone for all the great information.
So I've been playing bogles forever, and side-boarding has always been pretty easy for most matchups since we just have good hate in our colors. But what on earth am I supposed to do against phoenix? Like do I just bring in the rest of the Paths and pray?? (Also I usually play a bant build just for fun so if there are any suggestions to help in blue I'll take that too) I guess my issue is I just think damping sphere and rest in peace are both just a little too slow and kinda weak against it anyway. Any help would be much appreciated!
I'm crossing my fingers for Sterling Grove. This card is amazing and would become a great tool box for Bogles.
It's a great card but I think it would still be too slow as a tutor. The Shroud effect could be interesting though, but I am not sure how much it is really needed.
I hope that they put a Steelshaper's Gift in Modern Horizons that searches for an Aura instead of an Equipment card.
So I've been playing bogles forever, and side-boarding has always been pretty easy for most matchups since we just have good hate in our colors. But what on earth am I supposed to do against phoenix? Like do I just bring in the rest of the Paths and pray?? (Also I usually play a bant build just for fun so if there are any suggestions to help in blue I'll take that too) I guess my issue is I just think damping sphere and rest in peace are both just a little too slow and kinda weak against it anyway. Any help would be much appreciated!
Sideboarding against Phoenix was just talked about to pages ago.
[quote from="Pedro Rocha »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/220251-g-w-auras-bogle?comment=2723"]I'm crossing my fingers for Sterling Grove. This card is amazing and would become a great tool box for Bogles.
It's a great card but I think it would still be too slow as a tutor. The Shroud effect could be interesting though, but I am not sure how much it is really needed.
I hope that they put a Steelshaper's Gift in Modern Horizons that searches for an Aura instead of an Equipment card.
An aura-centric Steelshaper's would be excellent and seemingly much more likely than Enlightened Tutor entering Modern.
I think we'd benefit from almost any sort of efficient card advantage/filtering and/or tutor effect. I still think Sylvan Library would be a fair addition to the format and give us some filtering/painful CA while juicing up Ethereal; with the exception of DS decks moving into green, I don't see many ways it could end up being degenerative. I definitely agree with Grove being a slow tutor, but I think there's potential there if we can take advantage of shrouding our enchantments. There could be some utility in running it out of the SB either alone or with some kind of misc non-aura enchantment package (e.g. Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison) to slow down/turn off any enchant hate by tutoring up another copy in response to removal. I suppose it would allow us to drop a Daybreak with only 1 other aura attached without needing to worry as much about losing both to a removal spell. Might not ultimately pan out, but thinking back to when Open the Armory was printed and desperately trying make it work, I'd definitely like to give it a whirl if it should enter the format.
We can stop Explosives with Gaddock or Stony Silence... but this new land is tough. Suppression Field helps, but doesn't stop it. Heroic intervention would be useful for many other purposes too.
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Long live Modern!
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Yeaaah, I have now a chance versus you all. Sorry guys, but I love my blast zone. Finally it is not unbeatable anymore to my eldrazi build. Infekt and shadow have same problems. My opinion is they designed this card in the time period of shadow where all cryed to ban shadow. Now this card enters the battlefield... But shadow was not unfair anymore
Yeah, the Modern playables from WAR haven't been very kind to us. If you're running into multiple decks running Blast Zone, I think it'd be appropriate to pack some interventions in the SB; like you mention, it has enough versatility that you can justify the spots. Another option might be Solemnity depending on which one covers more bases for your particular meta. Swapping out a SPiritdancer for a Silhana Ledgewalker, playing full sets of both umbras, & 2+ Mantles might also be something to consider. Certainly not ideal, but may help lessen the damage from both Blast Zone and Chalice on 1.
Yeah, the Modern playables from WAR haven't been very kind to us. If you're running into multiple decks running Blast Zone, I think it'd be appropriate to pack some interventions in the SB; like you mention, it has enough versatility that you can justify the spots. Another option might be Solemnity depending on which one covers more bases for your particular meta. Swapping out a SPiritdancer for a Silhana Ledgewalker, playing full sets of both umbras, & 2+ Mantles might also be something to consider. Certainly not ideal, but may help lessen the damage from both Blast Zone and Chalice on 1.
Holy mother of God! I totally forgot about Solemnity! I'll try it. Thanks a lot!
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| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Sure thing, brotha. Hope one of them end up working out for ya; also hope Horizons gives us a playable tutor that could find a Solemnity lol.
You know... I've been thinking about Noxious Revival lately. Many (and I mean MANY) times, after sideboarding, opponents destroy our permanents with Nature's Claim and other enchantment hate stuff like that.. maybe some mass removal. Noxious Revival is instant and may be a great add to our sideboard. We can cast it for "free" during the end of our opponents turn... maybe during our turn just to get (with the help of Horizon Canopy) that aura/creature/fetch/PtE/Dryad Arbor that is in the graveyard. We can even respond Snapcaster Mage or Surgical Extraction... or make him draw something useless next turn. I can see a great range of situations where Noxious Revival would be really useful, during games 2 and 3, entering the deck after sideboarding.
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| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
The problem with that is figuring out what to drop in order to make room for a relevant number of Noxious. I agree that it blows whenever an opponent counters/destroys an Ethereal Armor or something, but our suite of [important] auras is fairly redundant; Noxious is great for decks with literally 1-2 cards that can win them the game, but not so much for Bogles unless you're in a corner case scenario like a Burn opp destroying your only Spirit Link.
Should Sterling Grove grace the format, it would essentially serve the same purpose of preserving our enchantments in addition to providing other utility.
I'm dreaming with Sterling Grove in Modern Horizons for a while.
For now, I only see as somehow useful for Force of Vigor, as an answer against Blood Moon, and maybe the green one that turns the creature into a 6/4 wurm. We're not much into one-time pumps, but a +5/+3 for 1 mana might be useful at some point. Anyway, I don't really thing it would make the cut. I'm still hoping for Grove or a cheap pushed aura!
Hexproof is in mondo trouble. There have been considerable massive upgrades to almost every other deck. This might be the end of sleeving up boggles for a gp and having any realistic chance of winning. Don't mean to be a doomsdayer but I think it's pretty bad. I've been a boggler from day 1 (Have it foiled and signed except for Spiritdancers) and I just don't see how it competes after some of these cards are being spoiled.
I think that this card may be a good "one of" maindeck or sideboard. Once it's on the battlefield... 1 squirrel per turn... and there's no more sacrifice problems for us.
Yeah, we've gotten zero love from these initial spoilers. Good news is there's still ~3/4 of the set left to be spoiled, so I'm still hoping WotC throws us a bone. IMO the majority of spoilers thus far have been pretty mediocre and seemingly more geared toward EDH, so maybe we'll start seeing some Modern bombs being dropped in the next few days of spoilers. The Horizon land cycle is relevant to almost every major Modern archetype and will provide them with some sort of boost, so it's just unfortunate that our deck already takes advantage of the original : | Oh well, silver lining is the price of Canopies should start dropping for anyone who still needs some!
I think there are more bombs hidden in the first spoilers than you realize. Infect got a major card today. I guess with that many cards still to come we have a chance. I’m hoping we get some random common at the end of the spoiler session that helps. I don’t think wizards has much incentive to help boggles out.
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If you were going into a hypothetical Blue Bogles, the list of auras could include Unstable Mutation, which could be pretty sweet. Would look to Arcane Flight, Curious Obsession, and maybe some options like Eel Umbra, Ghostly Wings, and Cartouche of Knowledge.
What else could Bogles benefit from? More cheap Auras? Or more sideboard help?
I was thinking about Horizon Canopy and what if it had been like one of the other allied lands from Future Sight. Graven Cairns wouldn't work, neither would Nimbus Maze. I think River of Tears would be iffy depending on how it was worded. Only the Grove of the Burnwillows format would have worked as well. Curious if we'll see any new lands in Modern Horizon that help. I think the card draw from Horizon Canopy makes it superior to a Green-White Grove of the Burnwillows.
"I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I'm crossing my fingers for Sterling Grove. This card is amazing and would become a great tool box for Bogles.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
"I cannot tune a harp or play a lyre, but I know how to make a small city great." - Themistocles
-----------------
"If you are willing to mulligan into oblivion, then you were only 86.5% to find a Leyline under the Vancouver mulligan rule, with an average starting hand of 5.22 cards. Under the London mulligan rule, you’re 97.2% to find a Leyline, with an average starting hand of 5.55 cards. Another way to put it: the odds of missing seven hands in a row with the Vancouver mulligan is 13.5%, but the odds of missing seven hands in a row with the London mulligan is only 2.8%. That’s a huge difference".
"Consider the following model of a combo deck:
20 lands
8 copies of combo piece A
8 copies of combo piece B
24 other spells
Lots of Modern decks can be modeled in this way. For example:
In Bogles, combo piece A could be a hexproof creature (Slippery Bogle or Gladecover Scout), and combo piece B could be one of the best Auras (Ethereal Armor or Daybreak Coronet). The specifics of the deck don’t really matter, but the mulligan strategy does. I assume that we keep if and only if our hand contains at least one of each combo piece and at least two lands. This is what I define as a good opening hand.
If you use this mulligan strategy but keep any four card hand, then you would keep 5.08 cards on average under the Vancouver rule, compared to 5.32 cards on average under the London rule.
So under the London rule, you will be able to sculpt a perfect opening hand (i.e., a hand with one of each combo piece and at least two lands) substantially more often, and you end up with larger hands on average. If you mulligan aggressively, you’re 70.46% to end up with such a perfect opening hand".
"Under either mulligan rule, you have a 39.9% to find at least one of your four Leylines in your starting seven. But if you are willing to mulligan down to a certain number of cards, then the odds of finding a Leyline go up dramatically"
---------------------
Obviously as a deck that often lives/dies on mulligans, Bogles would instantly benefit from the London mull as the chance of us finding just a functional opening hand increases dramatically. In our particular situation, the new mull would afford the opportunity for some selectivity in addition to the inherent increased consistency. After game 1, arguably all decks benefit from the London mull assuming effective SB answers are in place. However, it would seem as though the rule would lean in our favor (as well as any other deck where finding their particular leyline G2/G3 can make a significant difference) more so than others. Similarly, as a deck that can be crippled by T1 Thoughtseize, the chance to find an opening hand with redundancy G2/G3 can make a significant difference when we're on the draw.
Something that wasn't specifically touched on in the article was how/if the London mull would affect the construction of SBs. Theoretically, a greater chance to find our hate cards would suggest the possibility of running less copies of X in favor of including one copy of Y in order to cover more bases. However in regards to Bogles specifically, I'm curious if it'd be wiser to stick to the typical SB plan and enjoy the increased probability of finding something ran as a 4-of or potentially trimming down the SB in order to accommodate a wider variety of options? Overall, I'm really looking forward to seeing how this plays out should WotC officially declare the London mull law in the paper world, but also a bit worried that problematic cards such as Serum Powder or Leylines could be axed from the format in order to accommodate the change. Interested to hear what yall think about how the the London mull could benefit/harm our overall gameplan/place in the meta.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
So I've been playing bogles forever, and side-boarding has always been pretty easy for most matchups since we just have good hate in our colors. But what on earth am I supposed to do against phoenix? Like do I just bring in the rest of the Paths and pray?? (Also I usually play a bant build just for fun so if there are any suggestions to help in blue I'll take that too) I guess my issue is I just think damping sphere and rest in peace are both just a little too slow and kinda weak against it anyway. Any help would be much appreciated!
Thanks!!
It's a great card but I think it would still be too slow as a tutor. The Shroud effect could be interesting though, but I am not sure how much it is really needed.
I hope that they put a Steelshaper's Gift in Modern Horizons that searches for an Aura instead of an Equipment card.
Sideboarding against Phoenix was just talked about to pages ago.
It's a great card but I think it would still be too slow as a tutor. The Shroud effect could be interesting though, but I am not sure how much it is really needed.
I hope that they put a Steelshaper's Gift in Modern Horizons that searches for an Aura instead of an Equipment card.
An aura-centric Steelshaper's would be excellent and seemingly much more likely than Enlightened Tutor entering Modern.
I think we'd benefit from almost any sort of efficient card advantage/filtering and/or tutor effect. I still think Sylvan Library would be a fair addition to the format and give us some filtering/painful CA while juicing up Ethereal; with the exception of DS decks moving into green, I don't see many ways it could end up being degenerative. I definitely agree with Grove being a slow tutor, but I think there's potential there if we can take advantage of shrouding our enchantments. There could be some utility in running it out of the SB either alone or with some kind of misc non-aura enchantment package (e.g. Suppression Field, Ghostly Prison) to slow down/turn off any enchant hate by tutoring up another copy in response to removal. I suppose it would allow us to drop a Daybreak with only 1 other aura attached without needing to worry as much about losing both to a removal spell. Might not ultimately pan out, but thinking back to when Open the Armory was printed and desperately trying make it work, I'd definitely like to give it a whirl if it should enter the format.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
We can stop Explosives with Gaddock or Stony Silence... but this new land is tough. Suppression Field helps, but doesn't stop it. Heroic intervention would be useful for many other purposes too.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Holy mother of God! I totally forgot about Solemnity! I'll try it. Thanks a lot!
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
You know... I've been thinking about Noxious Revival lately. Many (and I mean MANY) times, after sideboarding, opponents destroy our permanents with Nature's Claim and other enchantment hate stuff like that.. maybe some mass removal. Noxious Revival is instant and may be a great add to our sideboard. We can cast it for "free" during the end of our opponents turn... maybe during our turn just to get (with the help of Horizon Canopy) that aura/creature/fetch/PtE/Dryad Arbor that is in the graveyard. We can even respond Snapcaster Mage or Surgical Extraction... or make him draw something useless next turn. I can see a great range of situations where Noxious Revival would be really useful, during games 2 and 3, entering the deck after sideboarding.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Should Sterling Grove grace the format, it would essentially serve the same purpose of preserving our enchantments in addition to providing other utility.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
For now, I only see as somehow useful for Force of Vigor, as an answer against Blood Moon, and maybe the green one that turns the creature into a 6/4 wurm. We're not much into one-time pumps, but a +5/+3 for 1 mana might be useful at some point. Anyway, I don't really thing it would make the cut. I'm still hoping for Grove or a cheap pushed aura!
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
I think that this card may be a good "one of" maindeck or sideboard. Once it's on the battlefield... 1 squirrel per turn... and there's no more sacrifice problems for us.
What do you think? Main? Side? Useless?
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I think there are more bombs hidden in the first spoilers than you realize. Infect got a major card today. I guess with that many cards still to come we have a chance. I’m hoping we get some random common at the end of the spoiler session that helps. I don’t think wizards has much incentive to help boggles out.