Prior to seeing your post, I was actually reading through the comments in the link and thought to myself, "Hmm, sounds like that foodchain guy from MTGS". Made my day haha.
I had to stick up for a deck that has given me a near 66.6% win rate (or 2-1) in Modern. I've checked my Modern win percentage on kavu.ru and Modern is my best format, other than Standard (lol because I did so well many years ago). Still, I give Pascal credit for having the guts to speak his mind.
Often I wonder if I played Twin more, if I played Jund more, if I played Affinity more, what would be my win rate? I honestly do believe that it would have been even higher had I been on those decks. But, there is something to be said about winning while on a deck that no one gives credit to. No one expects Bogles to put up results (and honestly it hasn't done much at GPs). I also LOOOOVE playing a fragile deck that loses to hate, but since it is not usually a good choice to run that hate because some is not flexible against other decks, you can often dodge it. Even without the hate, games can be very close, although some are total runaways. I enjoy many parts about this deck!
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Anyone got Jund sideboard and general match-up advice?
These are my issues in order:
Do I have a keepable hand? (Bogles variance) - keeping in mind that you can only use Bogle or Elf since 100% of the time your Kor Spiritdancer will taste a Lightning Bolt.
I keep my hand of land, Slippery Bogle, aura - turn one - assuming I'm on the draw - I am Inquisition of Kozilek'd - I lose my creature. Scoop.
Assume I keep a creature and even get an aura attached. Liliana of the Veil ends all your plans. I know the fetch for Dryad Arbor trick, but this only gets you so far and isn't always available.
Assume you dodge the Inquisition and Liliana problems. Now you have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse to wreck your board. (Yes I have Leyline of Sanctity, but they are usually destroyed or they just Decay your individual auras)
Is Rest in Peace appropriate here? We know they like their Tarmogoyf's huge and they like they Scavenging Ooze big. So this means x4 Leyline of Sanctity and x2 or x3 Rest in Peace almost universally?
I see write ups in this thread talking frequently about Jund wins as though they are 50% or better win chances.
Why am I utterly destroyed by Jund, every time?
Note that my decklist is as traditional as they come with the one exception being Horizon Canopy. I will never afford them even if reprinted.
Any help is appreciated.
One other question of completely general advice regardless of match-up. (Or maybe the answer is match-up dependent, you tell me?)
What is the correct play with Kor Spiritdancer?
Do you slam her on turn two knowing full well she likely dies?
Or
Do you wait for at least 3 mana, slowing yourself hard, but ensuring she replaces herself by getting a draw on your aura?
Anyone got Jund sideboard and general match-up advice?
These are my issues in order:
Do I have a keepable hand? (Bogles variance) - keeping in mind that you can only use Bogle or Elf since 100% of the time your Kor Spiritdancer will taste a Lightning Bolt.
I keep my hand of land, Slippery Bogle, aura - turn one - assuming I'm on the draw - I am Inquisition of Kozilek'd - I lose my creature. Scoop.
Assume I keep a creature and even get an aura attached. Liliana of the Veil ends all your plans. I know the fetch for Dryad Arbor trick, but this only gets you so far and isn't always available.
Assume you dodge the Inquisition and Liliana problems. Now you have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse to wreck your board. (Yes I have Leyline of Sanctity, but they are usually destroyed or they just Decay your individual auras)
Is Rest in Peace appropriate here? We know they like their Tarmogoyf's huge and they like they Scavenging Ooze big. So this means x4 Leyline of Sanctity and x2 or x3 Rest in Peace almost universally?
I see write ups in this thread talking frequently about Jund wins as though they are 50% or better win chances.
Why am I utterly destroyed by Jund, every time?
Note that my decklist is as traditional as they come with the one exception being Horizon Canopy. I will never afford them even if reprinted.
Any help is appreciated.
One other question of completely general advice regardless of match-up. (Or maybe the answer is match-up dependent, you tell me?)
What is the correct play with Kor Spiritdancer?
Do you slam her on turn two knowing full well she likely dies?
Or
Do you wait for at least 3 mana, slowing yourself hard, but ensuring she replaces herself by getting a draw on your aura?
There's a lot of questions here. Let me try my best and please forgive me if I forget something.
1. Playing against Jund - You have to take several things into consideration when playing against Jund. The first thing is the hand disruption. If you mull too low, you may never recover, even if the hand is perfect or has hate. In general, you want to have a Bogle, a land, and a fetchland. You want to have an Aura as well. Anything past that is pretty solid. Sometimes you're on the draw and they nab your creature. You still have chances to draw more and they are typically a slow deck outside of double Goyf. So you have time. But yes, sometimes you don't draw a creature after that or even a fetch to go in on Dryad Arbor. Sometimes they draw their 2 Terminate and some number of Lightning Bolts, while losing to a suited Bogle. See what I'm getting at? Sometimes you have to keep a hand that is vulnerable to Liliana of the Veil, although I will admit that I personally play around Lily more than any other card in Jund. You can lose to it. But you can often draw a Bogle or fetchland and it is nearly worthless, especially in games 2 and 3 when Leyline of Sanctity is in play. I put in 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Rest in Peace (all I have) from the side. RIP is makes Goyf a 0/1 and Scooze a 2/2. It also is pretty solid against Grim Player. It taxes Abrupt Decay, which is already down in numbers, so that your Auras can get there. Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse ARE very good against our deck. We survived the 4/2 days, so nowadays with 2/1, we should be more than fine. If you run into Madcap Jund (Madcap Experiment]/Platinum Emperion), you should side in some Nature's Claim as well.
2. My current record against BGx is 68-28 now after being 50/50 the past month or so, infrequently playing the deck. I've tested the matchup at home and in my opinion, it is 50/50. I have just been lucky in a somewhat limited number of matches. If you're getting destroyed, you're getting unlucky or not having a game plan. Horizon Canopy also gives late game gas, so not having that potential hurts a lot vs. Jund. I would estimate that 25% of the games go to the long game where Horizon Canopy shines. You absolutely side in Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace. One thing to consider in games 2 and 3 is that if you have your SB cards, your hand will be slower. But you could also have a fast hand without SB cards. You have to weigh the options because durdling against this deck also gives them chances to draw into more combination of answers.
3. With Kor Spiritdancer, it depends. If I slam it on turn 2, it means either that I don't care if it is destroyed or I want my opponent to waste their turn doing so, I have to go all-in on the Spiritdancer, or I am bluffing one of the two. If I have time, I usually do it on turn 3, where landing an Umbra on it makes me feel much more comfortable, especially once I start to get in beyond Dismember range. Against Path to Exile decks, I'm never comfortable, so there's a lot of reading an opponent and knowing when to go all-in or just get your free card draw. Sometimes this means saving the best Auras for the next one.
I hope this helps. This is the best that I can explain online. In person, it's easier to tell whether a player is posturing like they have Lightning Bolt or don't have it. I'm sure this would be a bit tougher online, although most of it is how they use their mana. Good luck slaying the BGx Monster!
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I greatly appreciate the help and advice, FoodChain.
I think I had some of the right ideas about combating Jund, but the water was very murky. I see it much more clearly now.
Here is one last bit of clarification required:
Assuming my opponent is still Jund, what do I side out? Typically speaking.
That's at least 6 cards I need to make room for.
I know that they pack tons of removal, so does that mean Kor Spiritdancer leaves? Do I get rid of Path to Exiles and accept my beats and their Bob card advantage?
When you are on the draw against Jund it's often correct to keep hands without a Bogle as long as you have a fetch land and good auras. You cannot rely on getting to keep the creature you have anyways due to their disruption. They also have no great ways of dealing with a Dryad Arbor with umbras on it. Sometimes the Dryad Arbor will get there and sometimes you'll topdeck a timely creature, but either way going down to 5 to find a creature just to be Inquisitioned turn 1 can be catastrophic.
Personally I don't like Rest in Peace against Jund as Tarmogoyf/Scavenging Ooze/Grim Flayer are not really cards that we care about much. The problem with Jund is the discard, Liliana and enchantment removal, not the creatures, plus we already have Path to Exile to deal with aggressive starts. Generally my sideboarding against Jund looks something like:
+4 Leyline
+1 Spellskite
-1 Spirit Mantle
-1 Spirit Link
-1 Kor Spiritdancer
-2 Spider Umbra
You can also take out some amount of Path to Exile, especially on the play or if you are confident they don't have Spellskite.
I side out Spirit Link and Unflinching Courage. The games are attrition based, so life gain will rarely matter much. (Daybreak Coronet is just too many abilities to take out.) Then I take out 3 Spirit Mantle. Although it can be very strong, it is the slowest Aura per power and we usually don't need evasion outside Rancor. Then I usually take out 1 Kor Spiritdancer. I want to keep some of them to get card advantage back.
I could be approaching Rest in Peace incorrectly. I feel that the card is a must kill for Jund, so this makes it tough to save removal for Auras (Abrupt Decay). But it does indeed slow our plan down, so prolonging the game may not be the right thing. I've had Rest in Peace diminish 2 Tarmogoyfs before, but I've also had RIP and my opponent draws all of the removal and beats me with something random.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Building my first iteration of this deck. The lands are slightly budget but I'll get 4 more fetches as soon as I can. I'm thinking of running 4 flooded strand until I get the extra wooded foothills
Still working on a sideboard. Finishing the main deck first.
Everyone in my meta is running heavy removal so I wanted to go ahead and use the full compliment of 12 hexproof targets. We have a couple boggles players and anytime they enchant kor spiritdancer it dies, is exiled, or is bounced. My friend runs keen sense in his deck. I have a feeling lookign at peoples card choices here and his that perhaps his deck is a little antiquated. Thoughts on Keen sense?
I personally don't like Keen Sense much. It doesn't make the Bogle bigger and that could be a detriment in some situations. I think with an all-in deck like Bogles, we need every Aura to affect the board. I prefer to have my card draw off Kor Spiritdancer, although I could see in a really, really heavy removal meta, not running many. I should state that I wouldn't be caught dead without Dryad Arbor though, even if it is preemptive to your purchasing of fetches.
I played in a 20 person FNM today. Attendance is down because the free FNM went to $5 FNM, but I presume it will go up from here.
Round 1 vs. Grixis Control. I lose game 1, being too greedy with Kor Spiritdancer instead of slapping Rancor and Hyena Umbra on turn 2. He Spell Snared my Spiritdancer, Bolted the other one, and used multiple Countersquall to keep me at bay. Then he raced me in damage with triple Cryptic Command late in the game. In the next game, I just draw a huge Bogle by turn 2 and he can't answer it. In the final game, it is similar to game 2, but I have to go all-in on Kor Spiritdancer in the end and he didn't have the 3rd Cryptic Command this time. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Grixis Control. Did everyone watch CFB's Corey Burkhart this week? This guy usually plays Infect, so I mull a hand with no Path to Exile and just Dryad Arbor. It turns out that would have lost to this deck as well. I end up getting outvalued and the 2 Bogles that I cast this game are Cryptic Commanded. I do some Path to Exile on Tasigur, but it wasn't what I really wanted to get. Engineered Explosives also was rough. In game 2, I get a huge Bogle by turn 3 and he can't do anything. In the final game, he ended up getting rid of my Bogle with Engineered Explosives, but I fire back with Kor Spiritdancer and Auras. He shows me double Anger of the Gods in hand. I should say that this round and the last one were much longer than I wrote. I just kind of did the cliff notes, but there was a lot more play to them. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. RG Breach/Madcap/Emperion. This was the 3rd very good opponent that I faced. In fact, he finished 9th at the most recent GP Los Angeles with Jeskai Nahiri with Tamiyo in the side. But I seem to be drawing pretty well against him as of lately. I keep a weak 6. He does Anger of the Gods to get my Bogle and Dryad Arbor and I don't come back. In the next game, I have the turn 3 kill. Bogle, double Ethereal Armor, double Rancor and he did shock/fetch for Search for Tomorrow on turn 1. He had turn 3 Emperion, he told me. In the final game, I get turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity. I attack with a Dryad Arbor with Umbra, but he Bolts and does block with Sakura Tribe-Elder. A few turns later, I get lucky and draw another Bogle and suit it up really, really big. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Suicide Bloo. This is our resident Izzet player. He loves Steam Vents! In game 1, I get enough removal to leave him chump blocking with Kiln Fiend. That's how you know you'll probably win. In the next game, I make a mistake of not putting Spirit Link on his Kiln Fiend. Then I attack and leave him at 2. Big, big mistake. He attacks me for 10 over lethal with double Temur Battle Rage (I Pathed several creatures). In the final game, I get the Rancor into Daybreak Coronet and he misses his 2nd land drop. I get another Rancor and another Daybreak Coronet and it's academic from there. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. GR Tron. I consider asking for a draw, but I'd rather smash this fellow. In game 1, I get a pretty big Bogle, but he does turn 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and without Path to Exile, there's no coming back from that. In the next game, I keep a 1 land hand with double Gaddock Teeg. I had a LOT of mulligans this tournament, but usually drew pretty well. I never draw the 2nd land and lose to Karn, O-Stone, and Ugin. 0-2.
I go 4-1, falling to 2nd place because the Suicide Bloo player's breakers were amazing.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
A guy made to the final in Birmingham Modern Championship during Eternal Weekend playing typical list but.....with a Red Splash for 4x Temur Battle Rage. Interesting approach, anybody tried it?
A guy made to the final in Birmingham Modern Championship during Eternal Weekend playing typical list but.....with a Red Splash for 4x Temur Battle Rage. Interesting approach, anybody tried it?
Can you give us a link please?
It does seem interesting. It is actually one of the ideas I've been mulling over a bit after seeing the plethora of non-interactive decks that are trying to super Aggro you using Berserk. I haven't tested it yet though, since I only thought of it a week ago after facing a UR Kiln Fiend deck. In this meta, it actually is pretty strong, being able to quicken the clock potentially by a turn. That's what this meta has basically devolved into and Bogles is slightly too slow in this meta (we have to play as a Control deck quite often).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Been there on Legacy Championship with Turbo Depths but with rather a poor result
I like the idea. However, if I'm splashing red then there's no way I'm not running a full set of Lightning Bolt. I've played around with splashing blue now and again; the results weren't anything worth writing home about, but it was interesting to note that the third color rarely caused any mana fixing issues. Completely anecdotal evidence from maybe 20 matches, but I'd be interested to see what a gifted brewer could come up with.
Ran Bogles at our 34 person FNM - 6 rounds. This was the biggest FNM since the $5 entry 3 weeks ago.
Round 1 vs. Mardu. She got Chalice of the Void on turn 2 after I played a Bogle. I drew 7 lands, 3 Path to Exile, and a Spider Umbra in the next 11 draws and lost. In the next game, I get a Bogle with 2 Auras. She does turn 2 Chalice of the Void on 1 again. I play Daybreak Coronet, then another and cruuuuush. In the next game, I have a curve of Bogle/Spirit Mantle, Daybreak Coronet, and Unflinching Courage. She does ... wait for it ... Chalice of the Void on 1 on her turn 2. But those auras get there. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Bant Eldrazi. I rush him in game 1 with Ethereal Armors and Daybreak Coronet. In game 2, he doesn't get much but some Eldrazi Skyspawners. He made a mistake of attacking into Spider Umbra and guess who recovered first? 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jund. I had beaten this guy 27 times and lost 1. I've drawn my best against this player, but it's more than that. I know how to play against him. Everything is against him. But, this game, I keep a 1 land hand and don't draw lands in time. He strips some important cards and Bolts my Kor Spiritdancers when I finally get some out. Engineered Explosives main deck is also tough and saved his butt. In the next game, I do turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace a bit later. But I have no pressure and he does Anger of the Gods, Maelstrom Pulse, and Engineered Explosives to clear my board. Then he strips my awkward hand and upticks Liliana of the Veil. With 2 lands in play, some of my next few draws are 3 more Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Daybreak Coronet. After those Leylines were all exiled, I drew a 4th land. I've been losing to Jund a lot recently with Bogles, so I need to tighten up or stop drawing much, much worse than them. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Infect. Turn 1 Glistener Elf. Turn 2 Blighted Agent. Turn 3, Mutagenic Growth X 2 and Become Immense, dead. In the next game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf again, but I have a blocker. I suit up Kor Spiritdancer and he gets ridiculously big really fast. In the final game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf. I consider doing Path to Exile, but I need to play my only creature, a fetchland into Dryad Arbor. I draw Kor Spiritdancer on turn 2, so I play it. He kills me on his turn 3 with Might of Old Krosa, Distortion Strike rebound, and Blossoming Defenses that he would have protected the Elf with on turn 2 if I tried to Path on that turn. My option was Path to Exile on turn 1, but literally every time I've done that, this particular player came back with Blighted Agent into kill the next turn, so I let that one go. 1-2
Round 5 vs. Collected Death and Taxes. In the first game, I keep a 2 land hand and after turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, I proceed to play 1 mana Auras with double Kor Spiritdancer in play. I didn't draw a 3rd land, but drew gas and even went to the discard step a few times. I lose the 2nd game when he draws too many Hate Bears and I only have Gaddock Teeg with Gryff's Boon until a late Bogle fails to get there because of 2/2s and triple Horizon Canopy on my side. In the next game, I just crush with Auras and Daybreak Coronets. I draw 2 more and add then happily. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Bushwhacker Zoo. I get Daybreak Coronet and he scoops. In the next game, I get no lifelink and I barely lose to 5 attackers because of trample on Kird Ape. In the final game, I get Daybreak Coronet, then another, to stave off a fairly quick start by him (had me at 3 after I fetched). 2-1.
I go 4-2 and get 8th place on breakers. It's good for me to have some adversity the week before the RPTQ. I need to play my best at this tournament.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Ran Bogles at our 34 person FNM - 6 rounds. This was the biggest FNM since the $5 entry 3 weeks ago.
Round 1 vs. Mardu. She got Chalice of the Void on turn 2 after I played a Bogle. I drew 7 lands, 3 Path to Exile, and a Spider Umbra in the next 11 draws and lost. In the next game, I get a Bogle with 2 Auras. She does turn 2 Chalice of the Void on 1 again. I play Daybreak Coronet, then another and cruuuuush. In the next game, I have a curve of Bogle/Spirit Mantle, Daybreak Coronet, and Unflinching Courage. She does ... wait for it ... Chalice of the Void on 1 on her turn 2. But those auras get there. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Bant Eldrazi. I rush him in game 1 with Ethereal Armors and Daybreak Coronet. In game 2, he doesn't get much but some Eldrazi Skyspawners. He made a mistake of attacking into Spider Umbra and guess who recovered first? 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jund. I had beaten this guy 27 times and lost 1. I've drawn my best against this player, but it's more than that. I know how to play against him. Everything is against him. But, this game, I keep a 1 land hand and don't draw lands in time. He strips some important cards and Bolts my Kor Spiritdancers when I finally get some out. Engineered Explosives main deck is also tough and saved his butt. In the next game, I do turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace a bit later. But I have no pressure and he does Anger of the Gods, Maelstrom Pulse, and Engineered Explosives to clear my board. Then he strips my awkward hand and upticks Liliana of the Veil. With 2 lands in play, some of my next few draws are 3 more Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Daybreak Coronet. After those Leylines were all exiled, I drew a 4th land. I've been losing to Jund a lot recently with Bogles, so I need to tighten up or stop drawing much, much worse than them. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Infect. Turn 1 Glistener Elf. Turn 2 Blighted Agent. Turn 3, Mutagenic Growth X 2 and Become Immense, dead. In the next game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf again, but I have a blocker. I suit up Kor Spiritdancer and he gets ridiculously big really fast. In the final game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf. I consider doing Path to Exile, but I need to play my only creature, a fetchland into Dryad Arbor. I draw Kor Spiritdancer on turn 2, so I play it. He kills me on his turn 3 with Might of Old Krosa, Distortion Strike rebound, and Blossoming Defenses that he would have protected the Elf with on turn 2 if I tried to Path on that turn. My option was Path to Exile on turn 1, but literally every time I've done that, this particular player came back with Blighted Agent into kill the next turn, so I let that one go. 1-2
Round 5 vs. Collected Death and Taxes. In the first game, I keep a 2 land hand and after turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, I proceed to play 1 mana Auras with double Kor Spiritdancer in play. I didn't draw a 3rd land, but drew gas and even went to the discard step a few times. I lose the 2nd game when he draws too many Hate Bears and I only have Gaddock Teeg with Gryff's Boon until a late Bogle fails to get there because of 2/2s and triple Horizon Canopy on my side. In the next game, I just crush with Auras and Daybreak Coronets. I draw 2 more and add then happily. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Bushwhacker Zoo. I get Daybreak Coronet and he scoops. In the next game, I get no lifelink and I barely lose to 5 attackers because of trample on Kird Ape. In the final game, I get Daybreak Coronet, then another, to stave off a fairly quick start by him (had me at 3 after I fetched). 2-1.
I go 4-2 and get 8th place on breakers. It's good for me to have some adversity the week before the RPTQ. I need to play my best at this tournament.
Thanks for the breakdown and kudos for pulling off the match win where you had to deal with Chalice in every game; I'd have flipped the table and left before round two started...
I had to stick up for a deck that has given me a near 66.6% win rate (or 2-1) in Modern. I've checked my Modern win percentage on kavu.ru and Modern is my best format, other than Standard (lol because I did so well many years ago). Still, I give Pascal credit for having the guts to speak his mind.
Often I wonder if I played Twin more, if I played Jund more, if I played Affinity more, what would be my win rate? I honestly do believe that it would have been even higher had I been on those decks. But, there is something to be said about winning while on a deck that no one gives credit to. No one expects Bogles to put up results (and honestly it hasn't done much at GPs). I also LOOOOVE playing a fragile deck that loses to hate, but since it is not usually a good choice to run that hate because some is not flexible against other decks, you can often dodge it. Even without the hate, games can be very close, although some are total runaways. I enjoy many parts about this deck!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)These are my issues in order:
Do I have a keepable hand? (Bogles variance) - keeping in mind that you can only use Bogle or Elf since 100% of the time your Kor Spiritdancer will taste a Lightning Bolt.
I keep my hand of land, Slippery Bogle, aura - turn one - assuming I'm on the draw - I am Inquisition of Kozilek'd - I lose my creature. Scoop.
Assume I keep a creature and even get an aura attached. Liliana of the Veil ends all your plans. I know the fetch for Dryad Arbor trick, but this only gets you so far and isn't always available.
Assume you dodge the Inquisition and Liliana problems. Now you have Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse to wreck your board. (Yes I have Leyline of Sanctity, but they are usually destroyed or they just Decay your individual auras)
Is Rest in Peace appropriate here? We know they like their Tarmogoyf's huge and they like they Scavenging Ooze big. So this means x4 Leyline of Sanctity and x2 or x3 Rest in Peace almost universally?
I see write ups in this thread talking frequently about Jund wins as though they are 50% or better win chances.
Why am I utterly destroyed by Jund, every time?
Note that my decklist is as traditional as they come with the one exception being Horizon Canopy. I will never afford them even if reprinted.
Any help is appreciated.
One other question of completely general advice regardless of match-up. (Or maybe the answer is match-up dependent, you tell me?)
What is the correct play with Kor Spiritdancer?
Do you slam her on turn two knowing full well she likely dies?
Or
Do you wait for at least 3 mana, slowing yourself hard, but ensuring she replaces herself by getting a draw on your aura?
1. Playing against Jund - You have to take several things into consideration when playing against Jund. The first thing is the hand disruption. If you mull too low, you may never recover, even if the hand is perfect or has hate. In general, you want to have a Bogle, a land, and a fetchland. You want to have an Aura as well. Anything past that is pretty solid. Sometimes you're on the draw and they nab your creature. You still have chances to draw more and they are typically a slow deck outside of double Goyf. So you have time. But yes, sometimes you don't draw a creature after that or even a fetch to go in on Dryad Arbor. Sometimes they draw their 2 Terminate and some number of Lightning Bolts, while losing to a suited Bogle. See what I'm getting at? Sometimes you have to keep a hand that is vulnerable to Liliana of the Veil, although I will admit that I personally play around Lily more than any other card in Jund. You can lose to it. But you can often draw a Bogle or fetchland and it is nearly worthless, especially in games 2 and 3 when Leyline of Sanctity is in play. I put in 4 Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Rest in Peace (all I have) from the side. RIP is makes Goyf a 0/1 and Scooze a 2/2. It also is pretty solid against Grim Player. It taxes Abrupt Decay, which is already down in numbers, so that your Auras can get there. Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse ARE very good against our deck. We survived the 4/2 days, so nowadays with 2/1, we should be more than fine. If you run into Madcap Jund (Madcap Experiment]/Platinum Emperion), you should side in some Nature's Claim as well.
2. My current record against BGx is 68-28 now after being 50/50 the past month or so, infrequently playing the deck. I've tested the matchup at home and in my opinion, it is 50/50. I have just been lucky in a somewhat limited number of matches. If you're getting destroyed, you're getting unlucky or not having a game plan. Horizon Canopy also gives late game gas, so not having that potential hurts a lot vs. Jund. I would estimate that 25% of the games go to the long game where Horizon Canopy shines. You absolutely side in Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace. One thing to consider in games 2 and 3 is that if you have your SB cards, your hand will be slower. But you could also have a fast hand without SB cards. You have to weigh the options because durdling against this deck also gives them chances to draw into more combination of answers.
3. With Kor Spiritdancer, it depends. If I slam it on turn 2, it means either that I don't care if it is destroyed or I want my opponent to waste their turn doing so, I have to go all-in on the Spiritdancer, or I am bluffing one of the two. If I have time, I usually do it on turn 3, where landing an Umbra on it makes me feel much more comfortable, especially once I start to get in beyond Dismember range. Against Path to Exile decks, I'm never comfortable, so there's a lot of reading an opponent and knowing when to go all-in or just get your free card draw. Sometimes this means saving the best Auras for the next one.
I hope this helps. This is the best that I can explain online. In person, it's easier to tell whether a player is posturing like they have Lightning Bolt or don't have it. I'm sure this would be a bit tougher online, although most of it is how they use their mana. Good luck slaying the BGx Monster!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think I had some of the right ideas about combating Jund, but the water was very murky. I see it much more clearly now.
Here is one last bit of clarification required:
Assuming my opponent is still Jund, what do I side out? Typically speaking.
That's at least 6 cards I need to make room for.
I know that they pack tons of removal, so does that mean Kor Spiritdancer leaves? Do I get rid of Path to Exiles and accept my beats and their Bob card advantage?
Thanks for the info!
Personally I don't like Rest in Peace against Jund as Tarmogoyf/Scavenging Ooze/Grim Flayer are not really cards that we care about much. The problem with Jund is the discard, Liliana and enchantment removal, not the creatures, plus we already have Path to Exile to deal with aggressive starts. Generally my sideboarding against Jund looks something like:
+4 Leyline
+1 Spellskite
-1 Spirit Mantle
-1 Spirit Link
-1 Kor Spiritdancer
-2 Spider Umbra
You can also take out some amount of Path to Exile, especially on the play or if you are confident they don't have Spellskite.
I could be approaching Rest in Peace incorrectly. I feel that the card is a must kill for Jund, so this makes it tough to save removal for Auras (Abrupt Decay). But it does indeed slow our plan down, so prolonging the game may not be the right thing. I've had Rest in Peace diminish 2 Tarmogoyfs before, but I've also had RIP and my opponent draws all of the removal and beats me with something random.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Here is looking forward to my first Jund win in the coming weeks. Cheers.
Still working on a sideboard. Finishing the main deck first.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple Garden
2 Sunpetal Grove
3 Plains
2 Forest
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Kor Spiritdancer
4 Rancor
4 Hyena Umbra
2 Spider Umbra
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
2 Spirit Mantle
1 Spirit Link
1 Gryff's Boon
4 Path to Exile
Everyone in my meta is running heavy removal so I wanted to go ahead and use the full compliment of 12 hexproof targets. We have a couple boggles players and anytime they enchant kor spiritdancer it dies, is exiled, or is bounced. My friend runs keen sense in his deck. I have a feeling lookign at peoples card choices here and his that perhaps his deck is a little antiquated. Thoughts on Keen sense?
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
I played in a 20 person FNM today. Attendance is down because the free FNM went to $5 FNM, but I presume it will go up from here.
Round 1 vs. Grixis Control. I lose game 1, being too greedy with Kor Spiritdancer instead of slapping Rancor and Hyena Umbra on turn 2. He Spell Snared my Spiritdancer, Bolted the other one, and used multiple Countersquall to keep me at bay. Then he raced me in damage with triple Cryptic Command late in the game. In the next game, I just draw a huge Bogle by turn 2 and he can't answer it. In the final game, it is similar to game 2, but I have to go all-in on Kor Spiritdancer in the end and he didn't have the 3rd Cryptic Command this time. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Grixis Control. Did everyone watch CFB's Corey Burkhart this week? This guy usually plays Infect, so I mull a hand with no Path to Exile and just Dryad Arbor. It turns out that would have lost to this deck as well. I end up getting outvalued and the 2 Bogles that I cast this game are Cryptic Commanded. I do some Path to Exile on Tasigur, but it wasn't what I really wanted to get. Engineered Explosives also was rough. In game 2, I get a huge Bogle by turn 3 and he can't do anything. In the final game, he ended up getting rid of my Bogle with Engineered Explosives, but I fire back with Kor Spiritdancer and Auras. He shows me double Anger of the Gods in hand. I should say that this round and the last one were much longer than I wrote. I just kind of did the cliff notes, but there was a lot more play to them. 2-1.
Round 3 vs. RG Breach/Madcap/Emperion. This was the 3rd very good opponent that I faced. In fact, he finished 9th at the most recent GP Los Angeles with Jeskai Nahiri with Tamiyo in the side. But I seem to be drawing pretty well against him as of lately. I keep a weak 6. He does Anger of the Gods to get my Bogle and Dryad Arbor and I don't come back. In the next game, I have the turn 3 kill. Bogle, double Ethereal Armor, double Rancor and he did shock/fetch for Search for Tomorrow on turn 1. He had turn 3 Emperion, he told me. In the final game, I get turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity. I attack with a Dryad Arbor with Umbra, but he Bolts and does block with Sakura Tribe-Elder. A few turns later, I get lucky and draw another Bogle and suit it up really, really big. 2-1.
Round 4 vs. Suicide Bloo. This is our resident Izzet player. He loves Steam Vents! In game 1, I get enough removal to leave him chump blocking with Kiln Fiend. That's how you know you'll probably win. In the next game, I make a mistake of not putting Spirit Link on his Kiln Fiend. Then I attack and leave him at 2. Big, big mistake. He attacks me for 10 over lethal with double Temur Battle Rage (I Pathed several creatures). In the final game, I get the Rancor into Daybreak Coronet and he misses his 2nd land drop. I get another Rancor and another Daybreak Coronet and it's academic from there. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. GR Tron. I consider asking for a draw, but I'd rather smash this fellow. In game 1, I get a pretty big Bogle, but he does turn 4 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and without Path to Exile, there's no coming back from that. In the next game, I keep a 1 land hand with double Gaddock Teeg. I had a LOT of mulligans this tournament, but usually drew pretty well. I never draw the 2nd land and lose to Karn, O-Stone, and Ugin. 0-2.
I go 4-1, falling to 2nd place because the Suicide Bloo player's breakers were amazing.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Can you give us a link please?
It does seem interesting. It is actually one of the ideas I've been mulling over a bit after seeing the plethora of non-interactive decks that are trying to super Aggro you using Berserk. I haven't tested it yet though, since I only thought of it a week ago after facing a UR Kiln Fiend deck. In this meta, it actually is pretty strong, being able to quicken the clock potentially by a turn. That's what this meta has basically devolved into and Bogles is slightly too slow in this meta (we have to play as a Control deck quite often).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I found Unflinching Courage to be a little too clunky, especially withe such a small mana curve.
Sure, it sucks that it doesn't buff your creature any, but life gain is always a plus ..especially if it's only a 1 drop.
Went 4-0 with my build last FNM, and plan on keeping it this way.
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
by all means - http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2016/12/eternal-weekend-top-8-decklists-summary-modern-legacy-vintage-oldschool/ .
Been there on Legacy Championship with Turbo Depths but with rather a poor result
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Temple Garden
1 Arbor Dryad
1 Forest
2 Plains
4 Gladecover Scout
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Kor Spiritdancer
4 Rancor
4 Hyena Umbra
2 Spider Umbra
4 Daybreak Coronet
4 Ethereal Armor
2 Spirit Mantle
1 Spirit Link
1 Gryff's Boon
4 Path to Exile
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Seal of Primordium
Plenty of things like Chalice of the Void, Dredge, Merfolk, Affinity, Infect, etc going around. Hope to have a good showing on tuesday!
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
I like the idea. However, if I'm splashing red then there's no way I'm not running a full set of Lightning Bolt. I've played around with splashing blue now and again; the results weren't anything worth writing home about, but it was interesting to note that the third color rarely caused any mana fixing issues. Completely anecdotal evidence from maybe 20 matches, but I'd be interested to see what a gifted brewer could come up with.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
my thoughts exactly. Can be used to deal that final 3-6 dmg.
Round 1 vs. Mardu. She got Chalice of the Void on turn 2 after I played a Bogle. I drew 7 lands, 3 Path to Exile, and a Spider Umbra in the next 11 draws and lost. In the next game, I get a Bogle with 2 Auras. She does turn 2 Chalice of the Void on 1 again. I play Daybreak Coronet, then another and cruuuuush. In the next game, I have a curve of Bogle/Spirit Mantle, Daybreak Coronet, and Unflinching Courage. She does ... wait for it ... Chalice of the Void on 1 on her turn 2. But those auras get there. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Bant Eldrazi. I rush him in game 1 with Ethereal Armors and Daybreak Coronet. In game 2, he doesn't get much but some Eldrazi Skyspawners. He made a mistake of attacking into Spider Umbra and guess who recovered first? 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Jund. I had beaten this guy 27 times and lost 1. I've drawn my best against this player, but it's more than that. I know how to play against him. Everything is against him. But, this game, I keep a 1 land hand and don't draw lands in time. He strips some important cards and Bolts my Kor Spiritdancers when I finally get some out. Engineered Explosives main deck is also tough and saved his butt. In the next game, I do turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace a bit later. But I have no pressure and he does Anger of the Gods, Maelstrom Pulse, and Engineered Explosives to clear my board. Then he strips my awkward hand and upticks Liliana of the Veil. With 2 lands in play, some of my next few draws are 3 more Leyline of Sanctity and 2 Daybreak Coronet. After those Leylines were all exiled, I drew a 4th land. I've been losing to Jund a lot recently with Bogles, so I need to tighten up or stop drawing much, much worse than them. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Infect. Turn 1 Glistener Elf. Turn 2 Blighted Agent. Turn 3, Mutagenic Growth X 2 and Become Immense, dead. In the next game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf again, but I have a blocker. I suit up Kor Spiritdancer and he gets ridiculously big really fast. In the final game, he does turn 1 Glistener Elf. I consider doing Path to Exile, but I need to play my only creature, a fetchland into Dryad Arbor. I draw Kor Spiritdancer on turn 2, so I play it. He kills me on his turn 3 with Might of Old Krosa, Distortion Strike rebound, and Blossoming Defenses that he would have protected the Elf with on turn 2 if I tried to Path on that turn. My option was Path to Exile on turn 1, but literally every time I've done that, this particular player came back with Blighted Agent into kill the next turn, so I let that one go. 1-2
Round 5 vs. Collected Death and Taxes. In the first game, I keep a 2 land hand and after turn 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, I proceed to play 1 mana Auras with double Kor Spiritdancer in play. I didn't draw a 3rd land, but drew gas and even went to the discard step a few times. I lose the 2nd game when he draws too many Hate Bears and I only have Gaddock Teeg with Gryff's Boon until a late Bogle fails to get there because of 2/2s and triple Horizon Canopy on my side. In the next game, I just crush with Auras and Daybreak Coronets. I draw 2 more and add then happily. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Bushwhacker Zoo. I get Daybreak Coronet and he scoops. In the next game, I get no lifelink and I barely lose to 5 attackers because of trample on Kird Ape. In the final game, I get Daybreak Coronet, then another, to stave off a fairly quick start by him (had me at 3 after I fetched). 2-1.
I go 4-2 and get 8th place on breakers. It's good for me to have some adversity the week before the RPTQ. I need to play my best at this tournament.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Thanks for the breakdown and kudos for pulling off the match win where you had to deal with Chalice in every game; I'd have flipped the table and left before round two started...
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.