Hatebears/D&T is THE deck to play Vial. If you don't, just trade or sell them.
Far less essential in Merfolk.
No, it's better in Merfolk because (1) they have more dudes at the same CMC lined up (Hatebears usually has some curve-toppers at 3-4 while Merfolk.dec is basically two-drop lords plus Cursecatcher) and (2) they have counterspells to use held back mana for. Merfolk also has better draw/dig because of their cantrip dudes and running blue, they can better afford Vial being a non-threat on its own because they keep their hand stocked better.
Vial's effect of making your dudes uncounterable and giving them flash is not really worth the card disadvantage. There are creatures like Thrun if you need that specific effect which still represent a stand-alone threat. This deck lacks draw power and eventually Vial just ends up being a do-nothing card that could have been the next threat to stick after exhausting your opponent's answers. The tricksies with Arbiter and stuff are nice but ultimately, I prefer another threat. Vial doesn't do anything when your hand is empty.
Very much agree with you ToonBoon. Let's give reasons. Let's get theoric. =)
I'd say that Vial looks really good on paper, despite it being a bad topdeck and a painful 4-of. The reasons really outshine in the World Magic Championship coverage video where Kibler plays the deck against UWR (Stark). He gets a vial to 2 and another to 3 before dropping anything, but when he does, he fights the fetchlands with both Leonin and Mindcensor. Yup, I know Mindcensor does already have flash, but it comes free, and what can you do in the meanwhile with your lands?
I think here comes the point that makes Vial look good on paper: you really have a lot to do with your lands. Reanimating Stirring Wildwood, sacrificing them to destroy opposing lands, tap 5 to get +1 +1 counters... I believe that may be the selling point for Vial, just saying.
Still, I don't like it. I know there is a tension between having Wilt-leaf in hand and destroying an opponent's land with your 3rd land. I have lived it. But i'm not sold on playing that noncreature artifact just to up it up to 4 counters in 5 turns and be able to play your Leage. I believe Vial may be good where you don't mind being slow (i.e. matchups that you expect to be grindy and long, such as Jund-Junk). However, I don't really see that much of those matchups. Against combo you can't really wait, and UWR has Sphinxs to make sure it reigns in the late game. So all in all I'm not sold. I will test it though, to see if I am wrong.
On Tron, I'm not sure how our matchup is. I SB 2 Stony Silence and 2 Burrenton, but I have so far only faced the U version, and only once. And only lost. And there were so many mulligans I won't consider it representative.
Having played a version with Aether Vial, I'm going to say that it looks good in the current meta, or at least with a list that capitalises on it. It definitely helps the percentage points against any form of blue control bypassing counters and dropping things at instant speed, and I feel the list I'm running has at least a 60/40 preboard against UWR control. There are two things that you need to know when running Vial:
#1 What are you going to do with your mana?
(Swords, Life from the Loam, utility lands, etc.)
#2 How does your curve look and what are you going to tick it up to?
(This requires more building around.)
For reference, my list runs SoWaP and SoFaI with another War and Peace in the board. I'm also testing out Loam. My two-drop slot is huge with 15 bears. I do get hands with Hierarch and Vial, but I consider the matchup and three-drops in hand for the turn one play.
All that being said, Aether Vial is usually up for consideration for cuts, and isn't the best topdeck but I always end up going back to it. YMMV.
I've tested vial in many decks extensively, since Modern's birth, and my conclusion is this:
It is a bad card unless it actually works with your creatures to make your creatures stronger.
What I mean is, it is good in merfolk because it doesn't make adept reveal, and reejery can untap it for shenanigans. It is good in D+T because flickerwisp/arbiter is insane at instant speed. It is good in eternal command because it wants eternal witness at instant speed.
However, if it is just a deck with a lot of creatures, and you just want to play vial to be able to play some of your creatures for free at instant speed, don't. It's bad. Drawing a second vial is usually not that great and drawing any in the later part of the game is awful. Just play 4 more creatures in its place. It won't slow you down much and it's less dead draws for the late game. In legacy you don't have as much time to safely get your creatures down, and force of will is a problem. In modern you have more time to breathe and vial is considerably less powerful.
In the end, vial is anti-card advantage for a tiny bit of extra speed / possible combat tricks. The more you draw the worse off you are, but if they had been creatures / spells instead you would have been better off.
It's really, really close to being a good card. Don't get me wrong, acceleration + combat tricks is nice. That's why I say it's good enough to play in the decks that get even more bonus from it than normal, because it puts vial right across the line between being bad and being good. But if you don't have any considerable added bonus, I really feel it's not worth it. Try for yourself, play with vial and make note of the times you wish it was something else, and then play with 4 spells in it's place and see if you like it better.
-Tom
It is the reason why no copies of vial can be found in my Hatebears list for the BPB, despite running like 30 creatures or whatever it was.
Again I'd like to emphasize that I do not think vial is anything close to a very bad card; I've been playing a lot of D+T recently and enjoying my 4 copies alongside my wisps and arbiters.
However, in a GW Hatebears list that can't abuse vial, I will take the side of ToonBoon and claim that it is not worth it. I tested both versions a lot and liked vial-less better.
I don't think it takes much to make Vial worth it in GW Hatebears, though. Arbiters with Flash are dandy, but Scavenging Ooze with Flash is evil, and Qasali Pridemage with Flash can really mess with others' minds. Post-board, Spellskite and Linvala with Flash make some decks poop their pants (they need the bounce or double burn or Spellskite with Flash will steal Splinter Twin).
I'm trying Polukranos, World Eater in the 4-drop slot and I like him a lot. He's removal on legs that doesn't die to Bolt (although he gets blown out by stuff like Terminate). Also, Polukranos with Flash from Vial can plausibly kill stuff the turn he ETB (although he can't kill bigger guys so easily).
I tend to prefer slightly different Vial and no-Vial builds (more general goodstuffs without Vial, more Polukranos/Pridemage/Ooze/etc. with Vial).
Ah, I was unaware that GW Hatebears has begun to play 4 arbiters main.
In that case vial is better here than I had originally thought... but then again my GW bears list ran 4 ooze, 4 arbiter, and 4 pridemage and I still preferred vial-less. It's stuff like flickerwisp and eternal witness that really put vial over the top for me.
I also don't like the idea of Polukranos alongside a vial that generally should be kept at 3, but won't push too far against it because D+T generally plays one to three 4 drops as well.
EDIT: btw, last I played my GW Bears list I was seriously considering moving the arbiters to the sideboard, as their body-size is really sad when their ability doesn't pull weight. Just a thought.
Having played a version with Aether Vial, I'm going to say that it looks good in the current meta, or at least with a list that capitalises on it. It definitely helps the percentage points against any form of blue control bypassing counters and dropping things at instant speed, and I feel the list I'm running has at least a 60/40 preboard against UWR control.
You don't need more percentage points against Blue decks if you play my list. I built my list to beat UWR first, and it still crushes UWR after tweaks. Trust me, if you have Voice, and Smiter, AND Thrun, AND Sword of War and Peace to drop if those are answered, AND land destruction for 4 of their 6 win conditions, you're winning that game. You have to sequence your plays correctly, but Blue is not what you are worried about.
Small hyper aggro decks are, however. I'm seeing a common theme between Tokens, Bogle, and Infect being issues for us. We're generally in good shape for a GP metagame with all of the engine decks and Blue players, but at the local level, if you are facing a bunch of Bogle and Infect lists you may be in trouble.
Engineered Explosives is a good catch-all that hits against all of the aggro decks to some extent. Chalice of The Void set at 1 stops Bogle and Infect, but doesn't do much against Tokens. Last but not least, I highly recommend sticking with the Worship plan B against these decks. You play Worship and have a Troll out to keep the opponent from being able to kill you. Someone mentioned a Bogle player being able to gain life and basically stalemate the game if they can't kill Worship, and that's fine. Just try to win game 1 or make sure you have Engineered Explosives as well brought in.
Don't forget that you also have access to Spellskite. That keeps Infect and Bogle at bay, especially if you play the maindeck copy. If you bring them in from the SB remember that those decks are expecting Spellskites from most opponents, so you can't rely on them after boarding and should try to use something else. This makes Engineered Explosives a bit of a liability, because a common answer to Spellskite is Stony Silence, and that happens to shut down Explosives.
More narrow options exist. Ghostly Prison stops Tokens from doing much, and it can also keep Bogle from playing more spells AND attacking you. That might be enough, IDK. Back To Nature is the best answer for Bogle, but it doesn't help in the other matches.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I run two Swords of War and Peace main, and currently have two Swords of Feast and Famine in the side.
I like the idea of doing Naya. You would have to cut the Thalias completely and make other cuts, but you can free up some slots for Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Bolt, or a couple of Lightning Helix to add to the removal package.
Blue gives you Mana Leak and/or Remand, Spell Snare, Swan Song, and Rhox War Monk. Bant Charm is also a very legit spell, since one of its modes will matter in every match up.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
i was wondering if you could post your most recent list, crab.
i'll use it as a shell and tweak it to hate out our local metagame
I haven't had a lot of time to play Modern, with Standard and Legacy events that I had to test for and other things in my life. Still, after seeing what we are having trouble with, I like this list:
Those who have followed this thread for a while will notice that I cut Thalia completely. The only other MD change was that I decided to keep Swords MD. I'll use the Crucible plan against slower decks where Sword isn't good, or against decks where neither Sword are going to do much.
Also in the SB, Chalice of The Void. I convinced myself that this card is worth serious testing, because it does completely shut down a bunch of decks and hinders a lot more. It could possibly be a four of... the card is a Legacy & Vintage staple for a reason!
I have some more silver bullet type cards in the SB as well, but they're one ofs to make room for everything else. Other things that would work great in the SB as 1-ofs would be a Melira or a Dismember to add more removal.
I also considered a Rest In Peace to bump our GY hate count past 3. Remember that Melira Pod is ready to beat Scavenging Ooze. We may need additional hate for that deck. As-is we have a decent package against them, with Qasali to blow Pod all the way up to Linvala to stop all of the combos and force them to play "fair."
The hate card that beats Ooze also beats Rest In Peace (Abrupt Decay) so Faerie Macabre is the choice? No one can play around it...
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I find Resto Angel to be a total bomb in some match ups what do you guys think about it
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I will fight for birthing pod to be banned in modern till the bitter end. May interaction and enjoyable magic for both parties rise above annoying combo control/midrange decks. Combo has a place in legacy because it has good counterplay but not in modern
I find Resto Angel to be a total bomb in some match ups what do you guys think about it
First of all, I love your signature. The text below the Smiter making it look like he's saying that is just hilarious.
I think Resto angel is fine, personally. It only works in lists that are trying to go bigger (like yours), with the extra 4 drops and 5 drops like Baneslayer.
The only suggestion I'd made is to cut the Aether Vials in this style of deck for more mana dorks (Noble Hierarch specifically)
Hierarch is just huge in this deck. Exalted triggers are one of my biggest sources of incremental damage. They are also critical for making your guys big enough to punch through stalled boards productively.
Oh yea, one more thing. If you're running that many Crusaders, I'd make room for at least 2 Sword of War and Peace. That's a money combo right there that can just flat out end games. 4/4 Protection from 4 colors Double striker that also deals 2x the number of cards in opponents hand to them? It's just insane. Crusader also synergizes well with Exalted triggers.
By the way, here is a list that I took first place with on friday at a small local modern tournament:
I played against Mono Red burn, Monoblack Tribal Vampires, Affinity, and Scapeshift. 3 of these lists I would call, "tournament level" decks or whatever. Not to be condescending, but the vampires player was admittedly a casual player and didn't really care about 'tier decks' or the metagame. I swept all the matches off the back of Worship, and mana screw + Leonin Arbiters / Mindcensor against Scapeshift.
My thoughts after the tournament: Liege is a bit overkill. Without Thalia in the deck anymore, I'm liking Sword of War and Peace a lot more, which means I'm looking to make room for Mirran Crusaders. They might just end up replacing the Lieges.
On the other hand, Liege has great synergy with the deck. It makes Voice of Resurgence insane, justifies maindeck Pridemages, ALMOST makes the one of Gaddock Teeg main justifiable. I like having 3 Pridemages maindeck, because at worst they are 2/2's with exalted, and at best they are completely back-breaking game one, as many of my matches against Affinity and Melira Pod have demonstrated (I prefer to commit to a deck's strengths and hedge on them for strategies like this)
The biggest question is, does Sword of War and Peace (coupled with Crusader and exalted triggers) do that job better?
1 Gaddock Teeg main without a tutor is also a little too ambitious. I'd like to swap him out for either a Crusader, or perhaps a maindeck Spellskite.
Elspeth was a throwaway card that I added at the last minute because I couldn't get any Mirran Crusaders, Sword of War and Peace, or Crucible of Worlds before the tourney.
I definitely want to pick up 1-2 Crucible of Worlds for this deck, either for 2 in the SB, or a 1/1 split between SB and MD. It's superior to loam and adds another dimension to the deck for a relatively small investment of slots.
As always, this thread delivers great discussion so any input would be well appreciated. Keep on hating!
I removed the Thrun in the main because it was only good vs flash for the most part and took one Pridemage away, I also removed the Aether vials. I added four Noble Hierarchs
and two swords. Its been working quite a bit better in testing that extra damage NH gives you is noticeable
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I will fight for birthing pod to be banned in modern till the bitter end. May interaction and enjoyable magic for both parties rise above annoying combo control/midrange decks. Combo has a place in legacy because it has good counterplay but not in modern
if you are going to a big modern tourney, would you still play the same list?
Yes, but I would see if there were a lot of Melira Pod or other combo players and adjust accordingly. This list will cover just about anything to a certain extent, but it can't hurt to add more Damping Matrix if you see Pod or Twin, or run some Rest In Peaces if you also expect the Griselbrand Reanimator deck, Storm, or other strategies like that.
Swindle: The Swords were added as the best "trump" for UWR. Wilt-Leaf is also a great card, but I feel like if I was going to run those I would need 4 slots. I don't have 4 slots.
The thing with Swords is that you can just drop one, and then every single creature you play for the rest of the game has to be answered. UWR has to either bounce Sword with Cryptic then counter it as it comes back down, or counter Sword in the first place (but we're smart players that play around counters) or kill every creature in response to equip. Using Sword, you can just drop one guy at a time. Even a Noble is going to be scary, because that's a big life swing if it connects, even for a "1/2." You end up playing a game that they aren't ready for. They can stop your large vanilla creatures, but they need things like their Lightning Bolts and Paths and Gideon Jura to work in order to win.
The same dynamic plays out against the Red decks, or any fair deck really. Scapeshift decks have to kill your guy or be able to get more Valakut triggers to kill you after you hit. Junk/Jund/etc. really can't afford the lifegain that you provide, and the Pro-Green & Black out of the side is going to destroy them if they don't have Bolt at the right time.
I also like how my curve is pretty low with Swords, and how I can afford to run Thruns and a Linvala because they are my only 4s. With Wilt-Leaf I would be looking at up to 7 4 drops, and that's not going to end well! I could drop all of my current 4s and run Wilt-Leafs. That's a possibility that will make those Jund and Junk matches even better, although Thrun and Linvala both do good work there already (Linvala stops Deathrite and Ooze if they are playing that, while Thrun only dies to a Liliana... and we play 29 creatures.)
If you want to hate on the opposition hate bears style, stick with Time of Need into Thrun or Linvala. If you are going for more of a beatdown plan, then try Wilt-Leaf and all of the GW dudes. I posted a mock GW aggro list many pages back that used stuff like Dryad Militant and Steppe Lynx instead of the hate package. Ideally you would want Wilt-Leaf to be the turn 4 play that wins the game, as you attack with your 4/4 Voice, 6/6 Smiter, and 4/3 Dryad Militant!
Zombones: REALLY minor nitpick, but I would run Deglamer over Disenchant. Deglamer will be better against Wurmcoil Engines, and can hit Artifacts that are Indestructible. Seal Of Primordium also works as a pre-emptive way to beat Blood Moon.
No, it's better in Merfolk because (1) they have more dudes at the same CMC lined up (Hatebears usually has some curve-toppers at 3-4 while Merfolk.dec is basically two-drop lords plus Cursecatcher) and (2) they have counterspells to use held back mana for. Merfolk also has better draw/dig because of their cantrip dudes and running blue, they can better afford Vial being a non-threat on its own because they keep their hand stocked better.
Vial's effect of making your dudes uncounterable and giving them flash is not really worth the card disadvantage. There are creatures like Thrun if you need that specific effect which still represent a stand-alone threat. This deck lacks draw power and eventually Vial just ends up being a do-nothing card that could have been the next threat to stick after exhausting your opponent's answers. The tricksies with Arbiter and stuff are nice but ultimately, I prefer another threat. Vial doesn't do anything when your hand is empty.
I'd say that Vial looks really good on paper, despite it being a bad topdeck and a painful 4-of. The reasons really outshine in the World Magic Championship coverage video where Kibler plays the deck against UWR (Stark). He gets a vial to 2 and another to 3 before dropping anything, but when he does, he fights the fetchlands with both Leonin and Mindcensor. Yup, I know Mindcensor does already have flash, but it comes free, and what can you do in the meanwhile with your lands?
I think here comes the point that makes Vial look good on paper: you really have a lot to do with your lands. Reanimating Stirring Wildwood, sacrificing them to destroy opposing lands, tap 5 to get +1 +1 counters... I believe that may be the selling point for Vial, just saying.
Still, I don't like it. I know there is a tension between having Wilt-leaf in hand and destroying an opponent's land with your 3rd land. I have lived it. But i'm not sold on playing that noncreature artifact just to up it up to 4 counters in 5 turns and be able to play your Leage. I believe Vial may be good where you don't mind being slow (i.e. matchups that you expect to be grindy and long, such as Jund-Junk). However, I don't really see that much of those matchups. Against combo you can't really wait, and UWR has Sphinxs to make sure it reigns in the late game. So all in all I'm not sold. I will test it though, to see if I am wrong.
On Tron, I'm not sure how our matchup is. I SB 2 Stony Silence and 2 Burrenton, but I have so far only faced the U version, and only once. And only lost. And there were so many mulligans I won't consider it representative.
#1 What are you going to do with your mana?
(Swords, Life from the Loam, utility lands, etc.)
#2 How does your curve look and what are you going to tick it up to?
(This requires more building around.)
For reference, my list runs SoWaP and SoFaI with another War and Peace in the board. I'm also testing out Loam. My two-drop slot is huge with 15 bears. I do get hands with Hierarch and Vial, but I consider the matchup and three-drops in hand for the turn one play.
All that being said, Aether Vial is usually up for consideration for cuts, and isn't the best topdeck but I always end up going back to it. YMMV.
It is the reason why no copies of vial can be found in my Hatebears list for the BPB, despite running like 30 creatures or whatever it was.
Again I'd like to emphasize that I do not think vial is anything close to a very bad card; I've been playing a lot of D+T recently and enjoying my 4 copies alongside my wisps and arbiters.
However, in a GW Hatebears list that can't abuse vial, I will take the side of ToonBoon and claim that it is not worth it. I tested both versions a lot and liked vial-less better.
Take it for what it's worth.
I'm trying Polukranos, World Eater in the 4-drop slot and I like him a lot. He's removal on legs that doesn't die to Bolt (although he gets blown out by stuff like Terminate). Also, Polukranos with Flash from Vial can plausibly kill stuff the turn he ETB (although he can't kill bigger guys so easily).
I tend to prefer slightly different Vial and no-Vial builds (more general goodstuffs without Vial, more Polukranos/Pridemage/Ooze/etc. with Vial).
In that case vial is better here than I had originally thought... but then again my GW bears list ran 4 ooze, 4 arbiter, and 4 pridemage and I still preferred vial-less. It's stuff like flickerwisp and eternal witness that really put vial over the top for me.
I also don't like the idea of Polukranos alongside a vial that generally should be kept at 3, but won't push too far against it because D+T generally plays one to three 4 drops as well.
EDIT: btw, last I played my GW Bears list I was seriously considering moving the arbiters to the sideboard, as their body-size is really sad when their ability doesn't pull weight. Just a thought.
You don't need more percentage points against Blue decks if you play my list. I built my list to beat UWR first, and it still crushes UWR after tweaks. Trust me, if you have Voice, and Smiter, AND Thrun, AND Sword of War and Peace to drop if those are answered, AND land destruction for 4 of their 6 win conditions, you're winning that game. You have to sequence your plays correctly, but Blue is not what you are worried about.
Small hyper aggro decks are, however. I'm seeing a common theme between Tokens, Bogle, and Infect being issues for us. We're generally in good shape for a GP metagame with all of the engine decks and Blue players, but at the local level, if you are facing a bunch of Bogle and Infect lists you may be in trouble.
Engineered Explosives is a good catch-all that hits against all of the aggro decks to some extent. Chalice of The Void set at 1 stops Bogle and Infect, but doesn't do much against Tokens. Last but not least, I highly recommend sticking with the Worship plan B against these decks. You play Worship and have a Troll out to keep the opponent from being able to kill you. Someone mentioned a Bogle player being able to gain life and basically stalemate the game if they can't kill Worship, and that's fine. Just try to win game 1 or make sure you have Engineered Explosives as well brought in.
Don't forget that you also have access to Spellskite. That keeps Infect and Bogle at bay, especially if you play the maindeck copy. If you bring them in from the SB remember that those decks are expecting Spellskites from most opponents, so you can't rely on them after boarding and should try to use something else. This makes Engineered Explosives a bit of a liability, because a common answer to Spellskite is Stony Silence, and that happens to shut down Explosives.
More narrow options exist. Ghostly Prison stops Tokens from doing much, and it can also keep Bogle from playing more spells AND attacking you. That might be enough, IDK. Back To Nature is the best answer for Bogle, but it doesn't help in the other matches.
~ Brian DeMars
For one, I love the hatebears deck. I pretty much force the deck in different formats actually, sometimes it's good; sometimes it's bad.
What have you guys thought about throwing a few swords in? Makes lingering and finks (if you run it) monsters they have to deal with.
Also, have we considered other splash colors like red or blue?
I like the idea of doing Naya. You would have to cut the Thalias completely and make other cuts, but you can free up some slots for Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Bolt, or a couple of Lightning Helix to add to the removal package.
Blue gives you Mana Leak and/or Remand, Spell Snare, Swan Song, and Rhox War Monk. Bant Charm is also a very legit spell, since one of its modes will matter in every match up.
~ Brian DeMars
i'll use it as a shell and tweak it to hate out our local metagame
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
My thought is that you are playing Death and Taxes with green, not GW Hatebears.
I haven't had a lot of time to play Modern, with Standard and Legacy events that I had to test for and other things in my life. Still, after seeing what we are having trouble with, I like this list:
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leonin Arbiter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spellskite
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Time of Need
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Worship
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Back to Nature
3 Chalice of the Void
Those who have followed this thread for a while will notice that I cut Thalia completely. The only other MD change was that I decided to keep Swords MD. I'll use the Crucible plan against slower decks where Sword isn't good, or against decks where neither Sword are going to do much.
Also in the SB, Chalice of The Void. I convinced myself that this card is worth serious testing, because it does completely shut down a bunch of decks and hinders a lot more. It could possibly be a four of... the card is a Legacy & Vintage staple for a reason!
I have some more silver bullet type cards in the SB as well, but they're one ofs to make room for everything else. Other things that would work great in the SB as 1-ofs would be a Melira or a Dismember to add more removal.
I also considered a Rest In Peace to bump our GY hate count past 3. Remember that Melira Pod is ready to beat Scavenging Ooze. We may need additional hate for that deck. As-is we have a decent package against them, with Qasali to blow Pod all the way up to Linvala to stop all of the combos and force them to play "fair."
The hate card that beats Ooze also beats Rest In Peace (Abrupt Decay) so Faerie Macabre is the choice? No one can play around it...
~ Brian DeMars
if you are going to a big modern tourney, would you still play the same list?
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Restoration Angel
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Path to Exile
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Forest
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Æther Vial
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Disenchant
1 Dismember
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Back to Nature
I find Resto Angel to be a total bomb in some match ups what do you guys think about it
I will fight for birthing pod to be banned in modern till the bitter end. May interaction and enjoyable magic for both parties rise above annoying combo control/midrange decks. Combo has a place in legacy because it has good counterplay but not in modern
if you are just after the protection, why not stick a body swing for 10mil with sowap andrusader in the BGx matchups?
plus it blanks 4/5 removals that the Bgx decks run:
1 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
3 dismember
4 2cmc company(doomblade and co.)
it does open himself ti bolt though
does taking out liege mean that jund is not prevalent or do the swords do th3 job better?
First of all, I love your signature. The text below the Smiter making it look like he's saying that is just hilarious.
I think Resto angel is fine, personally. It only works in lists that are trying to go bigger (like yours), with the extra 4 drops and 5 drops like Baneslayer.
The only suggestion I'd made is to cut the Aether Vials in this style of deck for more mana dorks (Noble Hierarch specifically)
Hierarch is just huge in this deck. Exalted triggers are one of my biggest sources of incremental damage. They are also critical for making your guys big enough to punch through stalled boards productively.
Oh yea, one more thing. If you're running that many Crusaders, I'd make room for at least 2 Sword of War and Peace. That's a money combo right there that can just flat out end games. 4/4 Protection from 4 colors Double striker that also deals 2x the number of cards in opponents hand to them? It's just insane. Crusader also synergizes well with Exalted triggers.
By the way, here is a list that I took first place with on friday at a small local modern tournament:
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leonin Arbiter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Wilt-leaf Liege
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Worship
2 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Spellskite
1 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dismember
1 Celestial Purge
1 Gaddock Teeg
I played against Mono Red burn, Monoblack Tribal Vampires, Affinity, and Scapeshift. 3 of these lists I would call, "tournament level" decks or whatever. Not to be condescending, but the vampires player was admittedly a casual player and didn't really care about 'tier decks' or the metagame. I swept all the matches off the back of Worship, and mana screw + Leonin Arbiters / Mindcensor against Scapeshift.
My thoughts after the tournament: Liege is a bit overkill. Without Thalia in the deck anymore, I'm liking Sword of War and Peace a lot more, which means I'm looking to make room for Mirran Crusaders. They might just end up replacing the Lieges.
On the other hand, Liege has great synergy with the deck. It makes Voice of Resurgence insane, justifies maindeck Pridemages, ALMOST makes the one of Gaddock Teeg main justifiable. I like having 3 Pridemages maindeck, because at worst they are 2/2's with exalted, and at best they are completely back-breaking game one, as many of my matches against Affinity and Melira Pod have demonstrated (I prefer to commit to a deck's strengths and hedge on them for strategies like this)
The biggest question is, does Sword of War and Peace (coupled with Crusader and exalted triggers) do that job better?
1 Gaddock Teeg main without a tutor is also a little too ambitious. I'd like to swap him out for either a Crusader, or perhaps a maindeck Spellskite.
Elspeth was a throwaway card that I added at the last minute because I couldn't get any Mirran Crusaders, Sword of War and Peace, or Crucible of Worlds before the tourney.
I definitely want to pick up 1-2 Crucible of Worlds for this deck, either for 2 in the SB, or a 1/1 split between SB and MD. It's superior to loam and adds another dimension to the deck for a relatively small investment of slots.
As always, this thread delivers great discussion so any input would be well appreciated. Keep on hating!
and two swords. Its been working quite a bit better in testing that extra damage NH gives you is noticeable
I will fight for birthing pod to be banned in modern till the bitter end. May interaction and enjoyable magic for both parties rise above annoying combo control/midrange decks. Combo has a place in legacy because it has good counterplay but not in modern
Yes, but I would see if there were a lot of Melira Pod or other combo players and adjust accordingly. This list will cover just about anything to a certain extent, but it can't hurt to add more Damping Matrix if you see Pod or Twin, or run some Rest In Peaces if you also expect the Griselbrand Reanimator deck, Storm, or other strategies like that.
Swindle: The Swords were added as the best "trump" for UWR. Wilt-Leaf is also a great card, but I feel like if I was going to run those I would need 4 slots. I don't have 4 slots.
The thing with Swords is that you can just drop one, and then every single creature you play for the rest of the game has to be answered. UWR has to either bounce Sword with Cryptic then counter it as it comes back down, or counter Sword in the first place (but we're smart players that play around counters) or kill every creature in response to equip. Using Sword, you can just drop one guy at a time. Even a Noble is going to be scary, because that's a big life swing if it connects, even for a "1/2." You end up playing a game that they aren't ready for. They can stop your large vanilla creatures, but they need things like their Lightning Bolts and Paths and Gideon Jura to work in order to win.
The same dynamic plays out against the Red decks, or any fair deck really. Scapeshift decks have to kill your guy or be able to get more Valakut triggers to kill you after you hit. Junk/Jund/etc. really can't afford the lifegain that you provide, and the Pro-Green & Black out of the side is going to destroy them if they don't have Bolt at the right time.
I also like how my curve is pretty low with Swords, and how I can afford to run Thruns and a Linvala because they are my only 4s. With Wilt-Leaf I would be looking at up to 7 4 drops, and that's not going to end well! I could drop all of my current 4s and run Wilt-Leafs. That's a possibility that will make those Jund and Junk matches even better, although Thrun and Linvala both do good work there already (Linvala stops Deathrite and Ooze if they are playing that, while Thrun only dies to a Liliana... and we play 29 creatures.)
If you want to hate on the opposition hate bears style, stick with Time of Need into Thrun or Linvala. If you are going for more of a beatdown plan, then try Wilt-Leaf and all of the GW dudes. I posted a mock GW aggro list many pages back that used stuff like Dryad Militant and Steppe Lynx instead of the hate package. Ideally you would want Wilt-Leaf to be the turn 4 play that wins the game, as you attack with your 4/4 Voice, 6/6 Smiter, and 4/3 Dryad Militant!
Zombones: REALLY minor nitpick, but I would run Deglamer over Disenchant. Deglamer will be better against Wurmcoil Engines, and can hit Artifacts that are Indestructible. Seal Of Primordium also works as a pre-emptive way to beat Blood Moon.
~ Brian DeMars