Actually, that card is surprisingly absent since mostly they just go big. Plus you can't side against everything. I'm accepting that is going to ruin my day.
I am also considering other options, like Gideon Jura, since we can ramp into him and then force them to attack, leaving them completely vulnerable and being unable to swing back for lethal because of a wall of El-skeezy was literally how I lost multiple games. However, I think a 3-drop recurring removal guy is better.
I've been thinking about it this way because I also play Merfolk and Islandwalk is the skittles against Eldrazi since it makes their dudes non-blockers. So I thought, how do we get that effect in GW? Well, removal or Gideon are pretty much it. I think removal is more efficient and 3 mana more effective, since it can drop on turn 2 sometimes and it is also a vial target.
I agree that the deck needs more recurring removal in general. Between the two I'd probably take Gideon Jura because he can at least kill something tapped when he etb and is more resilient than Intrepid Hero. Gideon Jura has the added benefit of also being a win con.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
I agree with danilompaula on this. Teeg was worse than useless against Eldrazi. I do run 1 in the main for Coco-Chord and Tron and I would not part with it. I would put a 2nd in the board, except I know how good Merfolk is about to be and I want that Choke. Plus, it's gravy against random Ux tempo and control decks.
Valorous Stance is okay, but I think the ability to shoot their creatures repeatedly is really important because their draw isn't very good, so if they don't have an answer in hand they are top decking. If you average two kills out it, you are already ahead on value, and with Exalted triggers and Wilt-Leaf Liege, it can swing for that last bit of damage.
Gideon Jura is going to get tested. I think forcing any of our opponents to have to attack Gideon is great, especially in those matches where you get Gideon turn 3 or 4 thanks to Noble Hierarch. that said, Gideon is a big stress on our mana because you can vial him in, he has to be hard cast.
Anyway, enough theory crafting for now. TESTING!!!!
Ohh wow sorry guys, i totally missed the "non-creature" fact on Teeg
I totally agree with Coeurly: In the matchups where you want Gideon you probably Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge their lands away so 5cmc is harder to cast and you probably want to overrun them in the early turns anyway with your hatebear-army.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Ohh wow sorry guys, i totally missed the "non-creature" fact on Teeg
I totally agree with Coeurly: In the matchups where you want Gideon you probably Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge their lands away so 5cmc is harder to cast and you probably want to overrun them in the early turns anyway with your hatebear-army.
Gideon Jura has many more applications than just against Eldrazi style decks.
We run a similar manabase. I haven't had any issues in casting the cards you were concerned about. Agree that while in theory you could drop a land because of Oath of Nissa we are sacrificing lands all over the place so the count of 23 is somewhat deceptive.
Creatures
Agree with your expectations of the format in the short term. Being able to play a three drop on turn three and not worry too much about losing to twin really opens up their use quite a bit. Add that to the influx of agro strategies of different flavors and I'm all about maximizing the slot. I don't run Loxodon Smiter anymore for reasons stated earlier in the thread. To replace him I knew I wanted a good creature on both offense and defense that will in most situations force some kind of two for one in my favor.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: He's a great combination of threat and stabilizing force in one. If he weren't legendary it would be a four of for me. Has to attack or block to get that 2-for-1 but being 4 toughness passes the bolt test.
Eternal Witness: Not the most exciting of creatures but being able to buy back critical cards from the graveyard has been helping a ton. Recent addition to the build this week, so time will tell if she makes the cut for the long term.
Blade Splicer: Hands down this is the card that is performing well above my expectations. The token is excellent for stabilizing as well as a great carrier of exalted triggers - first strike is a very powerful ability that is somewhat hard to find in modern. He can block Etched Champion and if the golem eats a bolt I still have a 1/1 to chump block for a turn. Overall, 4 power spread across two bodies is a great deal for the casting cost.
Regarding your question - I see moving any one of the three cards you're debating out of the main and in to the board as viable depending on your local scene. I dont think Thrun, the Last Troll is particularly good right now but I've always loved Restoration Angel. Ultimately I think Linvala, Keeper of Silence wins the four cmc slot for me as her ability shuts down so many random things and makes life difficult for the other side. Flying is huge in modern as many decks have little to no way to block it.
Enchantments
Still loving the four Oath of Nissa plan here. Don't see that changing soon.
Planeswalkers
I tried out the off-color planeswalker idea this weekend at the LGS, with Ajani Vengeant main and Chandra, Pyromaster and Ob Nixilis Reignited in the side. In short - the strategy works overall but its certainly risky for the reasons you stated. If any of those stay it would be Ob Nixilis because his abilities are really good and at 5 cmc I will typically have an Oath in play by the time I have mana to cast him.
This experiment did show me how planeswalkers in general are definitely more viable in a twin-free world. To that end I'll be running Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the main this week and Gideon Jura in the side. I feel like those two give the deck the ability to play the aggressor or defender pretty well.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Is there any blue creature we can consider or blue planeswalker due to the mana of Hierarch?
All of the Jaces cost UU as far as I recall and Narset does nothing for us. I have used Kiora, the Crashing Wave in scapeshift builds before and found her to be subtly powerful. She does a decent job of protecting herself and can ultimate pretty quickly. The look on people's faces is kind of priceless. I haven't tried the newer version of her but I could assume it would be similar.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
@dcovino: List looks good. Fit a lot of great stuff in there, Oath helps with getting those utility 1-ofs I hope. Would you consider a 1-of Eldrazi Displacer? with the Finks, Witness, etc? He removes blockers, resets opposing Oozes, stops big attacks, etc.
Did you end up playing that 2x Archangel of Tithes at all? Was she good?
Is there any blue creature we can consider or blue planeswalker due to the mana of Hierarch?
With Noble Hierarch as the only blue source? Nop
If you want to play blue, you have to warp the manabase
I have tried this before. You basically end up removing arbiters as to reliably have blue mana you need to be fetching and then why not add Geist of Saint Traft or Snapcaster Mage or Meddling Mage or.... While in theory I love Bant I have never been able to find a build I really liked. It always feels as it it is missing something and/or ran kind of clunky but that could totally be a result of how I constructed it.
@dcovino: List looks good. Fit a lot of great stuff in there, Oath helps with getting those utility 1-ofs I hope. Would you consider a 1-of Eldrazi Displacer? with the Finks, Witness, etc? He removes blockers, resets opposing Oozes, stops big attacks, etc.
Did you end up playing that 2x Archangel of Tithes at all? Was she good?
I ran Sea Gate Wreckage this weekend and while I liked it I found that having the mana to use it was sometimes difficult. Getting the colorless requirement isn't terribly hard but I felt I had other things I had or wanted to be doing with 3 mana. I realize Eldrazi Displacer is a different card - but it has the same activation cost and isn't free to get on the board to begin with. I'm sure that it is completely oppressive when it gets going (like most blink effects) but I probably wouldn't run it. I've run Restoration Angel for myriad reasons before and I'd probably just run 1-2 of those for the blink effect and have the additional abilities of flash, flying, and four toughness to boot. Flash casting a Serendib Efreet is pretty solid.
Archangel of Tithes is great at offense and defense and is still in my 75 right now. I'm constantly moving her in and out of the board and can't figure out a) where I want her to live and b) how many copies (0-2) I would run total. I would run her in the board as a Ghostly Prison of sorts that I can Oath of Nissa for in game two against swarm strategies or decks that rely on lots of token / wall type blockers to push through my own damage. Obviously again, flying...five toughness, etc is worth it in modern.
There was a deck called King in the Castle before that was in Bant colors, a kind of Hatebears but without the bears Used blue for Trinket Mage mostly (and Meddling Mage in the board), which could search a lot of silver bullets for that metagame.
The thing is that Blue doesn't offer a lot to GW besides SCM, Geist or the mages... At least, nothing that the deck could somehow do without the third color
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Am I the only one underwhelmed by Aven Mindcensor? Nobody at my LGS ever falls for it and it's a 3drop with mediocre stats. I replaced it with 2x Kitchen Finks but if URW KikiResto becomes popular I might switch to 2x Archangel of Tithes. I wasthinking about that anyway because I have a hard time beating Lingering Souls and Blade Splicer.
Am I the only one underwhelmed by Aven Mindcensor? Nobody at my LGS ever falls for it and it's a 3drop with mediocre stats. I replaced it with 2x Kitchen Finks but if URW KikiResto becomes popular I might switch to 2x Archangel of Tithes. I wasthinking about that anyway because I have a hard time beating Lingering Souls and Blade Splicer.
My opinion on Aven Mindcensor is that when evaluating it for a slot you always assume its a 2/1 flier for flash excepting in the following matchups: Tron, Scapeshift, possibly Bx Eldrazi, and various decks relying on Chord of Calling. Anything else you get out of it (LD is the hope) is inconsistent enough that you cannot assume it as an advantage to having it in the deck. I recommend regarding that as an unexpected bonus if you get there.
I always assume opponents will never "fall for it" and that they will play correctly around mindcensor. It is a flash threat that neuters some decks that can't handle it so I think it is well worth 1 or 2 slots. Occasionally they are sloppy and will lead to a blow out but I wouldn't expect that to be the norm.
Playing a turn 1 hierarch into turn 2 untapped temple garden can really warp how your opponents play too, even if you don't have mindcensor in hand just to bluff it.
I think that mindcensor makes the most sense in GW hatebears/dnt where it can be ramped into play and have exalted pump. That's what won me a match vs Bw eldrazi at last fnm.
Edit: on a separate note: what does everyone think of running a singleton dryad arbor in place of a nonbasic? I like the idea of vialing it into play at the bottom of turn one.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
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I agree that the deck needs more recurring removal in general. Between the two I'd probably take Gideon Jura because he can at least kill something tapped when he etb and is more resilient than Intrepid Hero. Gideon Jura has the added benefit of also being a win con.
My suggestion vs. Eldrazi and Tron meta: Why not just add more Gaddock Teeg to the main?
Like take the deck of @redtwister, cut 1 Scooze, 1 Finks and 1 Smiter and add 1 Thalia and 2 Teegs
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Valorous Stance is okay, but I think the ability to shoot their creatures repeatedly is really important because their draw isn't very good, so if they don't have an answer in hand they are top decking. If you average two kills out it, you are already ahead on value, and with Exalted triggers and Wilt-Leaf Liege, it can swing for that last bit of damage.
Gideon Jura is going to get tested. I think forcing any of our opponents to have to attack Gideon is great, especially in those matches where you get Gideon turn 3 or 4 thanks to Noble Hierarch. that said, Gideon is a big stress on our mana because you can vial him in, he has to be hard cast.
Anyway, enough theory crafting for now. TESTING!!!!
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I totally agree with Coeurly: In the matchups where you want Gideon you probably Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge their lands away so 5cmc is harder to cast and you probably want to overrun them in the early turns anyway with your hatebear-army.
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Gideon Jura has many more applications than just against Eldrazi style decks.
Lands
We run a similar manabase. I haven't had any issues in casting the cards you were concerned about. Agree that while in theory you could drop a land because of Oath of Nissa we are sacrificing lands all over the place so the count of 23 is somewhat deceptive.
Creatures
Agree with your expectations of the format in the short term. Being able to play a three drop on turn three and not worry too much about losing to twin really opens up their use quite a bit. Add that to the influx of agro strategies of different flavors and I'm all about maximizing the slot. I don't run Loxodon Smiter anymore for reasons stated earlier in the thread. To replace him I knew I wanted a good creature on both offense and defense that will in most situations force some kind of two for one in my favor.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos: He's a great combination of threat and stabilizing force in one. If he weren't legendary it would be a four of for me. Has to attack or block to get that 2-for-1 but being 4 toughness passes the bolt test.
Eternal Witness: Not the most exciting of creatures but being able to buy back critical cards from the graveyard has been helping a ton. Recent addition to the build this week, so time will tell if she makes the cut for the long term.
Kitchen Finks: Obviously good against agro decks and Liliana of the Veil. Once Gavony Township is online becomes difficult to get off the board for a lot of decks.
Blade Splicer: Hands down this is the card that is performing well above my expectations. The token is excellent for stabilizing as well as a great carrier of exalted triggers - first strike is a very powerful ability that is somewhat hard to find in modern. He can block Etched Champion and if the golem eats a bolt I still have a 1/1 to chump block for a turn. Overall, 4 power spread across two bodies is a great deal for the casting cost.
Regarding your question - I see moving any one of the three cards you're debating out of the main and in to the board as viable depending on your local scene. I dont think Thrun, the Last Troll is particularly good right now but I've always loved Restoration Angel. Ultimately I think Linvala, Keeper of Silence wins the four cmc slot for me as her ability shuts down so many random things and makes life difficult for the other side. Flying is huge in modern as many decks have little to no way to block it.
Enchantments
Still loving the four Oath of Nissa plan here. Don't see that changing soon.
Planeswalkers
I tried out the off-color planeswalker idea this weekend at the LGS, with Ajani Vengeant main and Chandra, Pyromaster and Ob Nixilis Reignited in the side. In short - the strategy works overall but its certainly risky for the reasons you stated. If any of those stay it would be Ob Nixilis because his abilities are really good and at 5 cmc I will typically have an Oath in play by the time I have mana to cast him.
This experiment did show me how planeswalkers in general are definitely more viable in a twin-free world. To that end I'll be running Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the main this week and Gideon Jura in the side. I feel like those two give the deck the ability to play the aggressor or defender pretty well.
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Blade Splicer
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Leonin Arbiter
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Temple Garden
4x Path to Exile
Enchantment (4)
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
All of the Jaces cost UU as far as I recall and Narset does nothing for us. I have used Kiora, the Crashing Wave in scapeshift builds before and found her to be subtly powerful. She does a decent job of protecting herself and can ultimate pretty quickly. The look on people's faces is kind of priceless. I haven't tried the newer version of her but I could assume it would be similar.
With Noble Hierarch as the only blue source? Nop
If you want to play blue, you have to warp the manabase
Did you end up playing that 2x Archangel of Tithes at all? Was she good?
I have tried this before. You basically end up removing arbiters as to reliably have blue mana you need to be fetching and then why not add Geist of Saint Traft or Snapcaster Mage or Meddling Mage or.... While in theory I love Bant I have never been able to find a build I really liked. It always feels as it it is missing something and/or ran kind of clunky but that could totally be a result of how I constructed it.
I ran Sea Gate Wreckage this weekend and while I liked it I found that having the mana to use it was sometimes difficult. Getting the colorless requirement isn't terribly hard but I felt I had other things I had or wanted to be doing with 3 mana. I realize Eldrazi Displacer is a different card - but it has the same activation cost and isn't free to get on the board to begin with. I'm sure that it is completely oppressive when it gets going (like most blink effects) but I probably wouldn't run it. I've run Restoration Angel for myriad reasons before and I'd probably just run 1-2 of those for the blink effect and have the additional abilities of flash, flying, and four toughness to boot. Flash casting a Serendib Efreet is pretty solid.
Archangel of Tithes is great at offense and defense and is still in my 75 right now. I'm constantly moving her in and out of the board and can't figure out a) where I want her to live and b) how many copies (0-2) I would run total. I would run her in the board as a Ghostly Prison of sorts that I can Oath of Nissa for in game two against swarm strategies or decks that rely on lots of token / wall type blockers to push through my own damage. Obviously again, flying...five toughness, etc is worth it in modern.
The thing is that Blue doesn't offer a lot to GW besides SCM, Geist or the mages... At least, nothing that the deck could somehow do without the third color
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
EDH - GU Kruphix, God of Horizons, WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, GUR Surrak Dragonclaw, WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores, R Purphoros, God of the Forge, RW Archangel Avacyn
My opinion on Aven Mindcensor is that when evaluating it for a slot you always assume its a 2/1 flier for flash excepting in the following matchups: Tron, Scapeshift, possibly Bx Eldrazi, and various decks relying on Chord of Calling. Anything else you get out of it (LD is the hope) is inconsistent enough that you cannot assume it as an advantage to having it in the deck. I recommend regarding that as an unexpected bonus if you get there.
GUGEdric, Spymaster of Trest - Elfball
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic- Doomsday!
RWUEphara, God of the Polis - Blink + Control
GBGGlissa, the Traitor - Stax & Lands
URGMaelstrom Wanderer - Goodstuff RUG
RGWMayael the Anima - Timmy
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher - The One Hit Wonder
RGWMarath, Will of the Wild - Old-school Enchantress Hate
RWRAurelia, the Warleader - Equipment Aggro
GGGReki, the History of Kamigawa - Legends + Banding
UBRSedris, the Traitor King - Creatures with : Ability
BUBPhenax, God of Deception - Mill
*Sidenote, I specifically excluded infinite combos from all these decks with the exception of Marath and the squirrel nest + Earthcraft combo.
Looking for something Aggressive in modern? Try - BR Aggro
Playing a turn 1 hierarch into turn 2 untapped temple garden can really warp how your opponents play too, even if you don't have mindcensor in hand just to bluff it.
Edit: on a separate note: what does everyone think of running a singleton dryad arbor in place of a nonbasic? I like the idea of vialing it into play at the bottom of turn one.