If we're already talking about Planeswalkers we can't cast without oath, why not play Liliana of the Veil? You know, the best 3mana planeswalker? Our hand empties out pretty quickly so that seems decent.
I dont like Lili mostly because I think that her +1 doesn't add much to the plan of resource denial - their hands will be full anyway. Without that, she ends up being a 3 mana edict that probably dies immediately. Her cmc is also right at our "sweet spot" in the 2-3 range.
Oath and planeswalkers make collected company significantly worse, so I'm wondering what matchup you guys feel we really need planeswalkers in as an aggro deck? CC refills the board against removal heavy decks like BGx or control variants, and let's us force them to tap on their own turn against counters. Planeswalkers improve which matchups for us?
Good question. First off I wouldn't be running Collected Company so thats a non-issue to me, personally.
I think my scope for this exercise is going to be along these lines:
Should be CMC > 3 so it doesn't compete with the early plays we have to make to enact the actual game plan. This also "ensures" that we will have an Oath of Nissa on board to be able to cast it on curve.
Must be resilient enough that one copy is "enough". This means it either has to protect itself well and / or have very high starting loyalty. By virtue of the above, it will be Abrupt Decay proof as well.
Should have two generally useful abilities, with at least one that can impact the board immediately. These abilities should lean to things that aren't really in the GW color identity and aren't targeted at any specific matchup.
They should be good cards to bring in when we hit random matchups that we're unprepared for or any of the bad-but-hard-to-hate-out matchups. In my mind I'm thinking of Merfolk here, as an example. I feel that Choke isn't very good against them for various reasons and it is way too limited right now with Twin gone. Jund and Zoo variants would also be in this category to me, to varying degrees.
Just got back from FNM, ran the list above but with the 4th Oath of Nissa and 2 Dawn Charm in the side instead of Crucibles. Ended up going 3-1. Definitely going to make changes to the side deck, but the additions of Oath and Wreckage are here to stay in my deck.
Round 1 (2-0)
VS Death's Shadow
First time I've seen this deck in action. Game 1 he didn't get any Shadow, game 2 topped a Path to Exile so I could swing for game.
Round 2 (0-2)
VS Mardu Tokens
I got wrecked. Lousy draws did me in.
Round 3 (2-0)
VS Kiki Resto
First game I had to mulligan down to 6, had a Smiter in hand, scryed a Smiter, and first turn Oathed a Smiter. He couldn't handle triple Smiter. Second game is where Oath of Nissa and Sea Gate Wreckage put in a ton of work, I probably drew 6 cards off SGW through the game and went through all 4 Oaths because it turned into a grind fest. Eventually I was able to draw and land a Sigarda and Gaddock Teeg thanks to Sea Gate Wreckage.
Round 4 (2-0)
Burn
Game 1 he keeps a 1 land hand and I stick a Thalia. Game 2 he needed to draw a burn spell to kill me, he didn't draw it.
Oath of Nissa is without a doubt in my mind an upgrade over Collected Company and Aether Vial, it adds so much consistency. I went down to 3 Temple Garden to make room for Sea Gate Wreckage and for the most part I didn't have a problem getting colourless mana to use it. I think for the future I'm going to cut the Kataki's and add Terminus and Dromoka's Command to better deal with creature spam and burn decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I don't own any Noble Hierarch's but I do own Birds. I only had 2 Vials to begin with, so I don't miss them at all. I was never unhappy to see Oath unless it was one of the 3 cards I looked at.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I'm running into issues against infect, which is most of my local game store. Does anyone have sideboard cards that specifically beat infect?
I've run Melira, Sylvok Outcast when I know I'll face it and it works like a charm. They typically don't have any creature removal to get her off the board and its much harder for them to kill you with damage (obviously).
Shriez - Dawn Charm I can see uses for all of its modes - what were your plans with it? How did it work out? Did you ever get to land Ajani Vengeant?
Just found this list from a recent mtgo league. Obviously its a bit different than what we typically talk about on this thread, but specifically in regard to Eight-and-a-Half-Tails...has anyone run this before? Interesting that it can save your permanents from Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger triggers in addition to the "normal" uses of giving protection to things. It is somewhat mana intensive but there are so few ways to stop the various on-cast triggers I felt it was worth consideration.
My original plan was I thought it would be able to counter Oblivion Sower but I was wrong. Kept it in anyway as sort of a catch-all against whatever new decks people decided to run now that Twin is gone. Didn't see it in any of the games I sided it in (Deaths Shadow, Tokens, and Burn). In the past it's been best against Tokens and Infect when I didn't have a Melira. The modes I've used most are the damage prevention and the counter.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I've run eight-and-a-half-tails. It pushes mirran crusader through one or two blockers and especially lingering souls tokens. The WW casting cost is not the best in GW hatebears but you would rarely want to play it turn 2 anyway. It also protects smiter from path, which is one of the main things that can kill it. It didn't especially over-perform for me and is relegated to the sideboard for grindier matches.
I'm running into issues against infect, which is most of my local game store. Does anyone have sideboard cards that specifically beat infect?
Holy Day is fun against Infect. Just make sure you make him waste multiple pumps. Fog obviously works just as well but isn't as cool. This is okay for FNM.
Sunlance can do some work. There's plenty of W removal but it can get blanked by Apostle's Blessing or Vines of Vastwood. Use your removal on your turn to make him waste his spells. This is more helpful with damage-based removal which is in short supply here, but making him waste Vines is well worthwhile.
Obviously, as has been mentioned, Melira, Sylvok Outcast can be huge, but if they don't already, they will start boarding Dismember for her. It is still possible for Infect to win with damage. I actually saw a kid win through Melira AND Spellskite. It was quite amazing.
I'm running into issues against infect, which is most of my local game store. Does anyone have sideboard cards that specifically beat infect?
The 'Shatterstorm' of Infect is Night of Souls' Betrayal. GW can't run any cards that beat them 100%, but there's a lot of cards that give them troubles: Melira, Spellskite, Sunlance, Chalice of the Void at 1 (as mentioned before), Engineered Explosives, Ulvenwald Tracker, but they can somehow play around them with Dismember, Spellskite or regular damage (they can count to 20 too). I'm going to analyze this as a whole, not just as SB cards. First, you need to not die to the early assault. Then, you have to turn the tables and put them against the ropes after you stabilize. The former can be achieved with Path, Dromoka's Command, Thalia, among others. They aren't that good on defense, so applying presure is not that hard. They have only 3 treats: Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus, so the Hatebears player needs to identify whats better against each of them. Since all of they creatures are 1/1 (without pump), simply blocking with a 2/2 means that they have to waste a pump spell or let it die. So, most of the creatures in the deck act like pseudo-removal. Use your actual removals (Path to Exile, Sunlance, or whatever you have) to fight Blighted Agent. Stirring Wildwoods, Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff and Ghost Quarter deals with the Nexi, and try to block all day the elves. Keep in mind that their manabase is quite sensitive to hate (Blood Moon is good against them, for example). I would bring Mirran Crusader and even some artifact hate (to fight Spellskite and Inkmoth Nexus) if I need to take out cards, and Kitchen Finks, expensive non-flying creatures you chose to run (Thrun, to name something) and even Scooze are cards you can cut for game 2. And as pzbw7z said, use the removal on your turn and is fine to take 1 poison and Path their dude at the end of the turn.
You probably are familiar with most of this 'advises', but it can be useful to other players too
And a general comentary: As somebody I can't recall right now (maybe Pat Chapin?) wrote in his article, don't deal with matchups as Card A vs Card B. This is an aproach that even a lot of Pros have about Modern (PV, a popular example because of his article) that may be true regarding certain archetypes like Amulet, but it's not against most of the field. It's not draw Stony Silence or lose against Affinity, that's an oversimplification that leads to disaster.
Regarding Dawn Charm, I can't really think of a good use for the third mode other than countering Gifts Ungiven or being a Sacred Nectar against Burn. What am I missing?
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
Quote from "Kakaroto" »
Quote from "Disco Stu" »
Podríamos hacer un topic donde marquemos los peores horrores de ortografía.
Also thinking of trying out Eldrazi Displacer in place of Aven Mindcensor to see how it performs. Has anyone else been able to give it a try and if so how did it perform?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
I hope you don't plan to use those Quarters or that Edge as land destruction if you play cards with colorless requirements. You can't do both, you know.
While I basically believe it's unwise to play those cards, you could switch to Brushland instead of Temple Garden or whatever you are playing as GW sources. I suppose a Wooded Bastion could be considered but you have to have enough other GW sources to use it.
I hope you don't plan to use those Quarters or that Edge as land destruction if you play cards with colorless requirements. You can't do both, you know.
While I basically believe it's unwise to play those cards, you could switch to Brushland instead of Temple Garden or whatever you are playing as GW sources. I suppose a Wooded Bastion could be considered but you have to have enough other GW sources to use it.
True I can't do both but I won't always have Leonin Arbiter to take advantage of Ghost Quarter so I might as well give them a secondary use beyond sniping Urza lands or manlands. Plus 4 Oath of Nissa makes it easier to find the land needed for Wreckage/Displacer or those cards themselves.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
Is it really such a good card though? What are you blinking that makes you want to pay 3 mana for the effect? Maybe I'm not used to the D&T blinking style so I don't see the immediate benefits. Granted Eldrazi Displacer does block etched champion which is a pro.
We don't play that many EtB effects but it can protect a creature from a removal spell or reset an arbiter to make an opponent pay 2 more mana to search.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This exactly.
I dont like Lili mostly because I think that her +1 doesn't add much to the plan of resource denial - their hands will be full anyway. Without that, she ends up being a 3 mana edict that probably dies immediately. Her cmc is also right at our "sweet spot" in the 2-3 range.
Good question. First off I wouldn't be running Collected Company so thats a non-issue to me, personally.
I think my scope for this exercise is going to be along these lines:
Its for (mostly) those reasons I initially was thinking of some locus of Ob Nixilis Reignited, Sorin, Solemn Visitor , Ajani Vengeant, and Chandra, Pyromaster from the board as "catchalls". Again, I don't like targeting my sideboard cards to anything in particular if I can get away with it.
Round 1 (2-0)
VS Death's Shadow
First time I've seen this deck in action. Game 1 he didn't get any Shadow, game 2 topped a Path to Exile so I could swing for game.
Round 2 (0-2)
VS Mardu Tokens
I got wrecked. Lousy draws did me in.
Round 3 (2-0)
VS Kiki Resto
First game I had to mulligan down to 6, had a Smiter in hand, scryed a Smiter, and first turn Oathed a Smiter. He couldn't handle triple Smiter. Second game is where Oath of Nissa and Sea Gate Wreckage put in a ton of work, I probably drew 6 cards off SGW through the game and went through all 4 Oaths because it turned into a grind fest. Eventually I was able to draw and land a Sigarda and Gaddock Teeg thanks to Sea Gate Wreckage.
Round 4 (2-0)
Burn
Game 1 he keeps a 1 land hand and I stick a Thalia. Game 2 he needed to draw a burn spell to kill me, he didn't draw it.
Oath of Nissa is without a doubt in my mind an upgrade over Collected Company and Aether Vial, it adds so much consistency. I went down to 3 Temple Garden to make room for Sea Gate Wreckage and for the most part I didn't have a problem getting colourless mana to use it. I think for the future I'm going to cut the Kataki's and add Terminus and Dromoka's Command to better deal with creature spam and burn decks.
EDH - GU Kruphix, God of Horizons, WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, GUR Surrak Dragonclaw, WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores, R Purphoros, God of the Forge, RW Archangel Avacyn
I've run Melira, Sylvok Outcast when I know I'll face it and it works like a charm. They typically don't have any creature removal to get her off the board and its much harder for them to kill you with damage (obviously).
Shriez - Dawn Charm I can see uses for all of its modes - what were your plans with it? How did it work out? Did you ever get to land Ajani Vengeant?
Just found this list from a recent mtgo league. Obviously its a bit different than what we typically talk about on this thread, but specifically in regard to Eight-and-a-Half-Tails...has anyone run this before? Interesting that it can save your permanents from Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger triggers in addition to the "normal" uses of giving protection to things. It is somewhat mana intensive but there are so few ways to stop the various on-cast triggers I felt it was worth consideration.
Holy Day is fun against Infect. Just make sure you make him waste multiple pumps. Fog obviously works just as well but isn't as cool. This is okay for FNM.
Celestial Flare is good against Infect or Bogles.
Sunlance can do some work. There's plenty of W removal but it can get blanked by Apostle's Blessing or Vines of Vastwood. Use your removal on your turn to make him waste his spells. This is more helpful with damage-based removal which is in short supply here, but making him waste Vines is well worthwhile.
Obviously, as has been mentioned, Melira, Sylvok Outcast can be huge, but if they don't already, they will start boarding Dismember for her. It is still possible for Infect to win with damage. I actually saw a kid win through Melira AND Spellskite. It was quite amazing.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
The 'Shatterstorm' of Infect is Night of Souls' Betrayal. GW can't run any cards that beat them 100%, but there's a lot of cards that give them troubles: Melira, Spellskite, Sunlance, Chalice of the Void at 1 (as mentioned before), Engineered Explosives, Ulvenwald Tracker, but they can somehow play around them with Dismember, Spellskite or regular damage (they can count to 20 too). I'm going to analyze this as a whole, not just as SB cards. First, you need to not die to the early assault. Then, you have to turn the tables and put them against the ropes after you stabilize. The former can be achieved with Path, Dromoka's Command, Thalia, among others. They aren't that good on defense, so applying presure is not that hard. They have only 3 treats: Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus, so the Hatebears player needs to identify whats better against each of them. Since all of they creatures are 1/1 (without pump), simply blocking with a 2/2 means that they have to waste a pump spell or let it die. So, most of the creatures in the deck act like pseudo-removal. Use your actual removals (Path to Exile, Sunlance, or whatever you have) to fight Blighted Agent. Stirring Wildwoods, Aven Mindcensor, Hushwing Gryff and Ghost Quarter deals with the Nexi, and try to block all day the elves. Keep in mind that their manabase is quite sensitive to hate (Blood Moon is good against them, for example). I would bring Mirran Crusader and even some artifact hate (to fight Spellskite and Inkmoth Nexus) if I need to take out cards, and Kitchen Finks, expensive non-flying creatures you chose to run (Thrun, to name something) and even Scooze are cards you can cut for game 2. And as pzbw7z said, use the removal on your turn and is fine to take 1 poison and Path their dude at the end of the turn.
You probably are familiar with most of this 'advises', but it can be useful to other players too
And a general comentary: As somebody I can't recall right now (maybe Pat Chapin?) wrote in his article, don't deal with matchups as Card A vs Card B. This is an aproach that even a lot of Pros have about Modern (PV, a popular example because of his article) that may be true regarding certain archetypes like Amulet, but it's not against most of the field. It's not draw Stony Silence or lose against Affinity, that's an oversimplification that leads to disaster.
Regarding Dawn Charm, I can't really think of a good use for the third mode other than countering Gifts Ungiven or being a Sacred Nectar against Burn. What am I missing?
Also thinking of trying out Eldrazi Displacer in place of Aven Mindcensor to see how it performs. Has anyone else been able to give it a try and if so how did it perform?
I hope you don't plan to use those Quarters or that Edge as land destruction if you play cards with colorless requirements. You can't do both, you know.
While I basically believe it's unwise to play those cards, you could switch to Brushland instead of Temple Garden or whatever you are playing as GW sources. I suppose a Wooded Bastion could be considered but you have to have enough other GW sources to use it.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I have 1x a Sea Gate Wreckage and have 3x Brushland, 2x Tectonic Edge, and 4x Ghost Quarter to support it. I haven't seen any troubles finding the colorless necessary.
EDH - GU Kruphix, God of Horizons, WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts, GUR Surrak Dragonclaw, WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores, R Purphoros, God of the Forge, RW Archangel Avacyn