Now that I am at home, I want to discuss why the Junk builds are worse when they are based on hand disruption. The thing is that hand disruption, such as Inquisition of Kozilek or Tidehollow Sculler, is primarily good against combo decks. They can sometimes be good against control, but the general idea is to use them to take combo pieces from your opponent. The problem with that plan, at least in Modern, is that the combo decks have a lot of redundancy and can grind games out without the need to combo.
The other big combo decks are running Birthing Pod and don't really care if you make them discard a combo piece, because they can Pod any of their creatures into other combo pieces.
Scapeshift just doesn't care either. IoK doesn't hit any of their important cards. Scapeshift, Cryptic Command and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle can't be targeted with IoK. They can Lightning Bolt or Firespout away Sculler. There is the option of playing Thoughtseize, but in a deck that fetches into shock lands you're really opening yourself up to being fodder for aggro decks, such as Burn, Zoo and Affinity.
This deck just works better laying down Hatebears and forcing your opponent to deal with them before they can move forward with their game plan. Like I said, I would really be interested in seeing a Junk build that was a real Hatebears deck, and not just splashing black for hand disruption. That waters down our general strategy, and weakens our deck across the field.
On Spirit of the Labyrinth, the main reason we don't want to run him is because he is just a worse Accorder Paladin against decks that don't draw cards. There are a lot of cards fighting for a slot at 2cmc, and he is pretty far down the list. I probably would never maindeck him, which means he is taking up precious space in my sideboard. I don't feel he hates across enough decks to warrant playing him. He would be effective against Storm, Twin and various Control decks that want to run Serum Visions, but I feel like there are better cards to hate those decks out that also cover other various matches.
Rule of Law is surely better against Storm, but Spirit of the Labyrinth seems applicable to quite a few decks. There's Storm of course, but also Living End with all its cycling. Tron draws a lot, as does Twin Exarch. Most control decks do. Fish draws a bit with Spreading Seas and Silvergill Adept. I don't like that 1-toughness, put she does pack a punch with that 3-power. My biggest problem with the card is that I just don't have anywhere to put it. I have no idea what I would replace.
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Hey guys, any advice for the soul sisters match up? I've been having a lot of trouble.
I maindeck 2 Sword of War and Peace. Postboard, I bring in 3 Worship and 2 Torpor Orb. I would think that's enough, but the matchup is still really hard for me. The pridemates are trouble and we only have so many paths, not to mention the turn 2 martyr of sand + serra ascendant hand. The anthemed squadron hawks + spectral processions really seal the deal though. I've only won a few times by locking them out with Worship and hoping to draw into a Sword of War and Peace. Is there another strategy with this matchup?
The only thing I miss in giving up black is thoughtseize/inquisition. The ability to massacre combos and pick them apart is sorely lacking in GW. We can slow them down, yes. But it sometimes can be hard to stop them altogether.
I miss black too, but not the discard. Is Abrupt Decay what I really want. Is good vs everything but WUR and Scapeshift (and maybe Tron)
Now that I am at home, I want to discuss why the Junk builds are worse when they are based on hand disruption. The thing is that hand disruption, such as Inquisition of Kozilek or Tidehollow Sculler, is primarily good against combo decks. They can sometimes be good against control, but the general idea is to use them to take combo pieces from your opponent. The problem with that plan, at least in Modern, is that the combo decks have a lot of redundancy and can grind games out without the need to combo.
The other big combo decks are running Birthing Pod and don't really care if you make them discard a combo piece, because they can Pod any of their creatures into other combo pieces.
Scapeshift just doesn't care either. IoK doesn't hit any of their important cards. Scapeshift, Cryptic Command and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle can't be targeted with IoK. They can Lightning Bolt or Firespout away Sculler. There is the option of playing Thoughtseize, but in a deck that fetches into shock lands you're really opening yourself up to being fodder for aggro decks, such as Burn, Zoo and Affinity.
This deck just works better laying down Hatebears and forcing your opponent to deal with them before they can move forward with their game plan. Like I said, I would really be interested in seeing a Junk build that was a real Hatebears deck, and not just splashing black for hand disruption. That waters down our general strategy, and weakens our deck across the field.
On Spirit of the Labyrinth, the main reason we don't want to run him is because he is just a worse Accorder Paladin against decks that don't draw cards. There are a lot of cards fighting for a slot at 2cmc, and he is pretty far down the list. I probably would never maindeck him, which means he is taking up precious space in my sideboard. I don't feel he hates across enough decks to warrant playing him. He would be effective against Storm, Twin and various Control decks that want to run Serum Visions, but I feel like there are better cards to hate those decks out that also cover other various matches.
Like I said, Decay is good vs most of the combo decks you listed, while being good vs aggro and a fine topdeck.
Regarding Spirit of the Labyrinth, I think it isn't good because of 2 reasons: first, just like Gaddock Tegg, it's easily answered nowdays (a few years ago, Tegg was better... now there is a lot of bolt, decay, etc); and second, there is not that much card draw in Modern. It's all cantrips, most of them in the opponents turn (Like Remand, Electrolyze, Cryptic Command) so SotL doesn't work. I remember splashing for 3 Gaddock Tegg in a BG Rock deck in extended, just to fight Storm (Mind's Desire and Tendrils of Agony) and Enduring Ideal, and maybe something else... But I don't even consider it for today's Hatebears! You drop it against WUR Control, Scapeshift or Tron just to watch him die
Also sorry if slightly offtopic: DOL, you seem to have a lot of experience with this deck. How expensive is it? I had an idea about an article/post to help people fight this ridiculous card prices. Some time ago, we had a Legacy thread with the price of each deck, and example decklist and basic strategy. Legacy was the expensive format, and people asked all the time for budget decks or what should they play. I think that we could group all the non-Fetch competitive decks into a pseudo-premier, with good and bad matchups for each of them. I'm thinking about GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Living End (could be Fetchless), and maybe some others... I really don't know that much about current prices since I own most of the Modern stuff, but saw in a few post that fetches were selling for $100 they were $10 in T2, and stayed in that price when rotated. Jumped to $20 (maybe just the blue ones) when modern was announced, and then scaled quickly Is this an awful idea? I just hate to see people struggling to enter this format.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Hey guys, any advice for the soul sisters match up? I've been having a lot of trouble.
I maindeck 2 Sword of War and Peace. Postboard, I bring in 3 Worship and 2 Torpor Orb. I would think that's enough, but the matchup is still really hard for me. The pridemates are trouble and we only have so many paths, not to mention the turn 2 martyr of sand + serra ascendant hand. The anthemed squadron hawks + spectral processions really seal the deal though. I've only won a few times by locking them out with Worship and hoping to draw into a Sword of War and Peace. Is there another strategy with this matchup?
It's a moderately crappy matchup. The Mono-W Version I think is actually easier to deal with than the RW version because of the value that RW tries to eke out with Wear & Tear...
The only thing you can bring in any better would be Engineered Explosives.
I think I bring in the full 3 worships, 2 Torpor Orbs, 3 Engineered Explosives and 1 Sword of Body and Mind.
Also sorry if slightly offtopic: DOL, you seem to have a lot of experience with this deck. How expensive is it? I had an idea about an article/post to help people fight this ridiculous card prices. Some time ago, we had a Legacy thread with the price of each deck, and example decklist and basic strategy. Legacy was the expensive format, and people asked all the time for budget decks or what should they play. I think that we could group all the non-Fetch competitive decks into a pseudo-premier, with good and bad matchups for each of them. I'm thinking about GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Living End (could be Fetchless), and maybe some others... I really don't know that much about current prices since I own most of the Modern stuff, but saw in a few post that fetches were selling for $100 they were $10 in T2, and stayed in that price when rotated. Jumped to $20 (maybe just the blue ones) when modern was announced, and then scaled quickly Is this an awful idea? I just hate to see people struggling to enter this format.
I can get it on Modo for around $450, on paper for about $600 now. ish.
The major cards that are money-breakers are Voice of Resurgence, Noble Hierarch, and Horizon Canopy. Everything else is actually relatively cheap (probably under $200). Linvalas & Swords are the only other cards that see moderate amount of play that routinely break the 15 dollar mark.
When Voices' return to a somewhat more normal price, the deck should probably be a little cheaper. Horizon Canopy isn't going to come down any ever, and Hierarch probably isn't as long as Zoo is 10% of the meta.
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This deck just works better laying down Hatebears and forcing your opponent to deal with them before they can move forward with their game plan. Like I said, I would really be interested in seeing a Junk build that was a real Hatebears deck, and not just splashing black for hand disruption. That waters down our general strategy, and weakens our deck across the field
Bingo. Hatebears don't 1-for-1 cards like discard does. It's a more nebulous amount, but they usually cause more damage than individual discard. Because essentially cards like Thalia require them to find the right card to go off, just the same as if you'd have discarded a key card, but with cards like Thalia, and Rule of Law, and Arbiter, you're forcing your opponent to take more draw steps than what you would have with just a piece of 1-for-1 discard on average. Have to wait 3-4-5 turns until they can find a card to deal with a monster Scavenging Ooze. And all the while you clock them.
The problem with Junk is that I think it dilutes the "hate-y-ness", but improves the general aggroness of the deck. You're not gaining that much relevant hate by playing black. Blue on the other hand I think gives you a few better hate cards than i think you get with black.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
The only thing I miss in giving up black is thoughtseize/inquisition. The ability to massacre combos and pick them apart is sorely lacking in GW. We can slow them down, yes. But it sometimes can be hard to stop them altogether.
I miss black too, but not the discard. Is Abrupt Decay what I really want. Is good vs everything but WUR and Scapeshift (and maybe Tron)
Now that I am at home, I want to discuss why the Junk builds are worse when they are based on hand disruption. The thing is that hand disruption, such as Inquisition of Kozilek or Tidehollow Sculler, is primarily good against combo decks. They can sometimes be good against control, but the general idea is to use them to take combo pieces from your opponent. The problem with that plan, at least in Modern, is that the combo decks have a lot of redundancy and can grind games out without the need to combo.
The other big combo decks are running Birthing Pod and don't really care if you make them discard a combo piece, because they can Pod any of their creatures into other combo pieces.
Scapeshift just doesn't care either. IoK doesn't hit any of their important cards. Scapeshift, Cryptic Command and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle can't be targeted with IoK. They can Lightning Bolt or Firespout away Sculler. There is the option of playing Thoughtseize, but in a deck that fetches into shock lands you're really opening yourself up to being fodder for aggro decks, such as Burn, Zoo and Affinity.
This deck just works better laying down Hatebears and forcing your opponent to deal with them before they can move forward with their game plan. Like I said, I would really be interested in seeing a Junk build that was a real Hatebears deck, and not just splashing black for hand disruption. That waters down our general strategy, and weakens our deck across the field.
On Spirit of the Labyrinth, the main reason we don't want to run him is because he is just a worse Accorder Paladin against decks that don't draw cards. There are a lot of cards fighting for a slot at 2cmc, and he is pretty far down the list. I probably would never maindeck him, which means he is taking up precious space in my sideboard. I don't feel he hates across enough decks to warrant playing him. He would be effective against Storm, Twin and various Control decks that want to run Serum Visions, but I feel like there are better cards to hate those decks out that also cover other various matches.
Like I said, Decay is good vs most of the combo decks you listed, while being good vs aggro and a fine topdeck.
Regarding Spirit of the Labyrinth, I think it isn't good because of 2 reasons: first, just like Gaddock Tegg, it's easily answered nowdays (a few years ago, Tegg was better... now there is a lot of bolt, decay, etc); and second, there is not that much card draw in Modern. It's all cantrips, most of them in the opponents turn (Like Remand, Electrolyze, Cryptic Command) so SotL doesn't work. I remember splashing for 3 Gaddock Tegg in a BG Rock deck in extended, just to fight Storm (Mind's Desire and Tendrils of Agony) and Enduring Ideal, and maybe something else... But I don't even consider it for today's Hatebears! You drop it against WUR Control, Scapeshift or Tron just to watch him die
Also sorry if slightly offtopic: DOL, you seem to have a lot of experience with this deck. How expensive is it? I had an idea about an article/post to help people fight this ridiculous card prices. Some time ago, we had a Legacy thread with the price of each deck, and example decklist and basic strategy. Legacy was the expensive format, and people asked all the time for budget decks or what should they play. I think that we could group all the non-Fetch competitive decks into a pseudo-premier, with good and bad matchups for each of them. I'm thinking about GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Living End (could be Fetchless), and maybe some others... I really don't know that much about current prices since I own most of the Modern stuff, but saw in a few post that fetches were selling for $100 they were $10 in T2, and stayed in that price when rotated. Jumped to $20 (maybe just the blue ones) when modern was announced, and then scaled quickly Is this an awful idea? I just hate to see people struggling to enter this format.
Edit: you could also put burn in the budget list
Yeah, Decay is really good. So is Maelstrom Pulse. I would definitely run both of those. Adding black does basically two things: It allows us to run a better removal package, and it enables us to run Knight of the Reliquary package. The down side is that we have to give up Arbiter and Thalia for that to happen.
Sad thing is this is still cheap for a competitive deck in Modern. Basically anything that doesn't run the BGx staples and or fetchlands at this point is "affordable". You could save some cash on this deck and replace Noble Hierarch with Birds of Paradise, but the exalted triggers are so useful I don't think I could contemplate doing so.
Blue on the other hand I think gives you a few better hate cards than i think you get with black.
Mostly because I love Bant - what hate cards from blue would you consider as possibilities? Aforementioned Geist of Saint Traft seems like an autoinclude. I'm not sure I would play counters - maybe Remand or Spell Pierce or Unified Will could fit if going that route.
Soul Sisters is rough. I basically rely on Engineered Explosives for it, but the cards you mentioned are all good there too.
Soul sisters is another deck that gets wrecked by chalice of the void. You play it for one, and they either have to wear/tear it (if RW), or die. It blanks like, 25+ cards in their deck.
Soul Sisters is rough. I basically rely on Engineered Explosives for it, but the cards you mentioned are all good there too.
Soul sisters is another deck that gets wrecked by chalice of the void. You play it for one, and they either have to wear/tear it (if RW), or die. It blanks like, 25+ cards in their deck.
Unless you're on the draw. Right?
How does Chalice even work on the draw?
This is the part I basically don't get about chalcie without actual instant speed acceleration. By the time you play chalice for 1, they can drop 3 one drops. Sister, Norn and maybe another Sister. From that point, you're basically hosed without being able to play path? You can limit a lot of their draws, yes, but you can't actually deal with the board state from that point on. They play a Genesis Chamber and then it's game over, usually because you have so limited ways to interact with their board from that point forward.
Edit: I can see how it's good against small zoo or storm, but Soul Sisters just seems like not at all even good whatsoever.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
If you're on the draw then yes, they potentially have 3 1 drops. But a couple points.
A: I don't honestly see a ton of RW soul sisters. It seems like a worse version of the deck to me.
B: Our deck, while chock full of hate, is at heart an aggressive midrange deck. I honestly don't care if they start quick with like, 2 sisters and an ascendant. Their life gain is going to be hindered by the fact that they can't just poop out the rest of their hand. Chalice slows the game down by a fair bit.
C: My lategame is better than soul sisters. Between Elspeth, swords (both of which are pro white), Wilt leaf leige, and gavony township, inevitability is on my side. I realize not everyone runs all of these things.
D: Chalice doesn't murder their deck. They'll still be able to play magic. But it is a piece in a larger whole that with all our other hate cards, (torpor orb, qasali pridemage) can create a pretty hostile environment.
E: You aren't always on the draw
That said, EE is still really really good and I'm not disagreeing with anyone about that. But chalice is silly and wonderful and effective and I like it. Why not both?
Soul Sisters is rough. I basically rely on Engineered Explosives for it, but the cards you mentioned are all good there too.
Soul sisters is another deck that gets wrecked by chalice of the void. You play it for one, and they either have to wear/tear it (if RW), or die. It blanks like, 25+ cards in their deck.
It really depends on what variant you're playing against. Against the primarily creature build, Chalice is good (if on the play as mentioned). Against the Token and Norin versions, not so much. Actually, Engineered Explosives is one of the very few ways you can get rid of Norin the Wary. If you haven't seen Norin Soul Sisters yet, then you are really in for something different when you do. I've ran into it a couple times and it can get pretty ridiculous.
The truth is that I don't run Chalice of the Void because I don't like how terrible it is on the draw. At least Engineered Explosives is still effective either way.
I like chalice because you can catch a couple decks with their pants down especially on the play. However, chalice on 1 shuts down all of your removal (unless you have dismember and you're probably not running more than 2), and chalice on 2 is all/most of your hatebears. Besides being less effective on the draw, it's also a terrible topdeck where most of our other hate options would have been better.
With our sb slots being as tight as it is, I feel chalice doesn't quite make my list since I play enough cross hate to not need/want it. Usually some combination of thalia, spellskite, worship, EE are enough to do the trick and they are always good when I board/have them, whereas I've still lost to exalted/penelhaven/blighted agent/inkmoth or a large enough pridemate (deck runs a number of 2cmc +) or a 2/3 aura'd bogle/spiritdancer with chalice out.
Outside of these matchups, I do see chalice being universally better against delver, storm; I also don't find chalice great against affinity and I'd rather have worship, EE, spellskite + creeping corrosion which I run in my sb.
A: I thought RW was the iteration seeing most play lately... maybe I'm wrong, but even still. How do you deal with a resolved Ajani's Pridemage? If they're gaining any life, and you don't have paths. How do you deal with it with one, maybe 2 swords in your 75? (I have some really strong SS players in my meta who do rather well with it when they feel it's well positioned). Also the RW version pretty much means if you're not playing EE or any sweepers, you can't ever deal with Norin the Wary ever.
B: GW is not a midrange deck. I don't know where that idea comes from. But I don't see it whatsoever. Yes, it can do some midrangey things, but in no way is it a midrange deck. It's a control deck more than anything. We're not aggressive, if we were, we'd play more cards like watchwolf and creatures that get considerably more offensive value. We're the control deck vs 80% of decks (Pod, UWR and Tron are the major ones I don't think we're not the beatdown for a majority of the matchup).
C: Against the mono-white version, I think that's probably correct, vs the RW version, I'm not even sure that's the case because they essentially just "combo out" on you, and are drawing to some quantity of wear and tear (or if they're playing Immortal Servitude, that just kinda bones Chalice too).
D: Sorry, I mistook "wrecked" for "murder". It is, but, we generally don't run a lot of other cards that interact with their deck, outside of Path, and with Chalice, that's not an option. Torpor Orb is really good, but if you're playing chalices, don't see one, and board out some number of paths, you're pretty much hoping that your creatures are better than their creatures, and most of the time, that's never going to be the case. We play creatures based more on their effects more than their stats or efficiency (see point B).
E: It's true, but if you're on the draw in G3, what are you doing?
F:
¿por qué no los dos?
Because modern sideboards are tighter than the 4 train during rush hour in NYC. I think that you end up reducing your total threats by playing too many non-creature cards, like Chalice replaces Thalia in my mind as being more effective vs Storm and little Zoo... but playing them in combination seems really weird too. Hatebears is a deck of 2/3 drops (as I pointed out, DOL's list runs like 15, mine runs 13). Chalice for 2 seems like the literal worst idea, Chalice for 1 turns off 6 draws (which ends up being a positive CA vs most decks, but you lose explosiveness, end up taking more hate from Blood Moon in the long run, and limit your ability to attack manabases). Chalice for 0 does work against exactly 3 decks. But when you side in both Chalice AND EE? It seems that you're playing to an angle that isn't working as well, and overloading a strategy with cards in hopes to lock them out, even though it puts a damper in your strategy as well.
I'm just saying: I don't like it. I think Chalice is a trashy card in this deck (but dear lord I love it in decks that play Simian Spirit Guide), and reducing your interactivity with other decks is nonsensical. Because really, outside of Path, we have minimal interaction with our opponents board.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
I can't figure out why the lists being discussed in this thread are so different from the ones that have been doing well recently online (here's a PE from last weekend with three similar decks in the top 8). Those decks are running more ETB effects than anything mentioned here, but there are plenty of hatebears stables (Birds, Smiters, Oozes, Township). As far as I can tell from what is published about online results, Vial is an automatic 4x and Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel, and Flickerwisp also appear regularly, if in slightly different numbers depending on build.
[quote from="DOLZero" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/220191-gw-hatebears?comment=1564"]
$772.56 total for my build from scratch.m
Sad thing is this is still cheap for a competitive deck in Modern. Basically anything that doesn't run the BGx staples and or fetchlands at this point is "affordable". You could save some cash on this deck and replace Noble Hierarch with Birds of Paradise, but the exalted triggers are so useful I don't think I could contemplate doing so.
Yeah, but the bulk of the costs is in a few cards that you can build around not having. Canopy can be replaced with basics, Hearch--> birds( esp if you run vials) and voice can be replaced with some other two drop, upping the number of oozes is the first thing that comes to mind.
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Merfolk
I can't figure out why the lists being discussed in this thread are so different from the ones that have been doing well recently online (here's a PE from last weekend with three similar decks in the top 8). Those decks are running more ETB effects than anything mentioned here, but there are plenty of hatebears stables (Birds, Smiters, Oozes, Township). As far as I can tell from what is published about online results, Vial is an automatic 4x and Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel, and Flickerwisp also appear regularly, if in slightly different numbers depending on build.
I can't figure out why the lists being discussed in this thread are so different from the ones that have been doing well recently online (here's a PE from last weekend with three similar decks in the top 8). Those decks are running more ETB effects than anything mentioned here, but there are plenty of hatebears stables (Birds, Smiters, Oozes, Township). As far as I can tell from what is published about online results, Vial is an automatic 4x and Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel, and Flickerwisp also appear regularly, if in slightly different numbers depending on build.
Basically one guy (Dr. Nutzlos) regularly tops DE's with it, and Jillypuff,_sickDraw, charlesthebananaking play essentially the same 75.
I've played the list, and it's a "similar", but no where close to the same deck. They're considerably more aggressive and less disruptive than the paper lists. Basically there's the MTGO version, and then there's the paper version (which I think the majority of players play on here). It's literally only as good as there's not torpor orbs in the format, the deck basically goes whoops vs it. I also don't know how it beats birthing pod all that often because even if it has Mindcensors and Arbiters, it usually doesn't have enough gas to get through their creatures in time vs Melira. I like to think that the paper lists generally do better vs pod than the MTGO lists.
Honestly, if I had a bit more free time, I'd start jamming MTGO more.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
Blue on the other hand I think gives you a few better hate cards than i think you get with black.
Mostly because I love Bant - what hate cards from blue would you consider as possibilities? Aforementioned Geist of Saint Traft seems like an autoinclude. I'm not sure I would play counters - maybe Remand or Spell Pierce or Unified Will could fit if going that route.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
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Twin typically runs 4x Splinter Twin and 1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, plus 4x Deceiver Exarch and 2x Pestermite. Not only do they have a plethora of combo pieces, but they also run a lot of cantrips and other spells such as Remand and Cryptic Command which help them dig while disrupting their opponent's game plan.
The other big combo decks are running Birthing Pod and don't really care if you make them discard a combo piece, because they can Pod any of their creatures into other combo pieces.
Storm doesn't care about discard, because they can get more counters on their Pyromancer's Ascension, or just cast Past in Flames.
Scapeshift just doesn't care either. IoK doesn't hit any of their important cards. Scapeshift, Cryptic Command and Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle can't be targeted with IoK. They can Lightning Bolt or Firespout away Sculler. There is the option of playing Thoughtseize, but in a deck that fetches into shock lands you're really opening yourself up to being fodder for aggro decks, such as Burn, Zoo and Affinity.
This deck just works better laying down Hatebears and forcing your opponent to deal with them before they can move forward with their game plan. Like I said, I would really be interested in seeing a Junk build that was a real Hatebears deck, and not just splashing black for hand disruption. That waters down our general strategy, and weakens our deck across the field.
On Spirit of the Labyrinth, the main reason we don't want to run him is because he is just a worse Accorder Paladin against decks that don't draw cards. There are a lot of cards fighting for a slot at 2cmc, and he is pretty far down the list. I probably would never maindeck him, which means he is taking up precious space in my sideboard. I don't feel he hates across enough decks to warrant playing him. He would be effective against Storm, Twin and various Control decks that want to run Serum Visions, but I feel like there are better cards to hate those decks out that also cover other various matches.
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BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I maindeck 2 Sword of War and Peace. Postboard, I bring in 3 Worship and 2 Torpor Orb. I would think that's enough, but the matchup is still really hard for me. The pridemates are trouble and we only have so many paths, not to mention the turn 2 martyr of sand + serra ascendant hand. The anthemed squadron hawks + spectral processions really seal the deal though. I've only won a few times by locking them out with Worship and hoping to draw into a Sword of War and Peace. Is there another strategy with this matchup?
Modern:RGWNaya BurnRGW|WBGAbzan Angel ChordWBG|WUUW ControlWU|UBUB FaeriesUB
Standard:GWGW HumansGW
Legacy:WBGAbzan MaverickWBG
Commander:WUBRBreya, Etherium ShaperWUBR|GWSelvala, Explorer ReturnedGW
360 Cube:http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/7000
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I miss black too, but not the discard. Is Abrupt Decay what I really want. Is good vs everything but WUR and Scapeshift (and maybe Tron)
Like I said, Decay is good vs most of the combo decks you listed, while being good vs aggro and a fine topdeck.
Regarding Spirit of the Labyrinth, I think it isn't good because of 2 reasons: first, just like Gaddock Tegg, it's easily answered nowdays (a few years ago, Tegg was better... now there is a lot of bolt, decay, etc); and second, there is not that much card draw in Modern. It's all cantrips, most of them in the opponents turn (Like Remand, Electrolyze, Cryptic Command) so SotL doesn't work. I remember splashing for 3 Gaddock Tegg in a BG Rock deck in extended, just to fight Storm (Mind's Desire and Tendrils of Agony) and Enduring Ideal, and maybe something else... But I don't even consider it for today's Hatebears! You drop it against WUR Control, Scapeshift or Tron just to watch him die
Also sorry if slightly offtopic: DOL, you seem to have a lot of experience with this deck. How expensive is it? I had an idea about an article/post to help people fight this ridiculous card prices. Some time ago, we had a Legacy thread with the price of each deck, and example decklist and basic strategy. Legacy was the expensive format, and people asked all the time for budget decks or what should they play. I think that we could group all the non-Fetch competitive decks into a pseudo-premier, with good and bad matchups for each of them. I'm thinking about GW Hatebears, Merfolk, Living End (could be Fetchless), and maybe some others... I really don't know that much about current prices since I own most of the Modern stuff, but saw in a few post that fetches were selling for $100 they were $10 in T2, and stayed in that price when rotated. Jumped to $20 (maybe just the blue ones) when modern was announced, and then scaled quickly Is this an awful idea? I just hate to see people struggling to enter this format.
Edit: you could also put burn in the budget list
It's a moderately crappy matchup. The Mono-W Version I think is actually easier to deal with than the RW version because of the value that RW tries to eke out with Wear & Tear...
The only thing you can bring in any better would be Engineered Explosives.
I think I bring in the full 3 worships, 2 Torpor Orbs, 3 Engineered Explosives and 1 Sword of Body and Mind.
I can get it on Modo for around $450, on paper for about $600 now. ish.
The major cards that are money-breakers are Voice of Resurgence, Noble Hierarch, and Horizon Canopy. Everything else is actually relatively cheap (probably under $200). Linvalas & Swords are the only other cards that see moderate amount of play that routinely break the 15 dollar mark.
When Voices' return to a somewhat more normal price, the deck should probably be a little cheaper. Horizon Canopy isn't going to come down any ever, and Hierarch probably isn't as long as Zoo is 10% of the meta.
Bingo. Hatebears don't 1-for-1 cards like discard does. It's a more nebulous amount, but they usually cause more damage than individual discard. Because essentially cards like Thalia require them to find the right card to go off, just the same as if you'd have discarded a key card, but with cards like Thalia, and Rule of Law, and Arbiter, you're forcing your opponent to take more draw steps than what you would have with just a piece of 1-for-1 discard on average. Have to wait 3-4-5 turns until they can find a card to deal with a monster Scavenging Ooze. And all the while you clock them.
The problem with Junk is that I think it dilutes the "hate-y-ness", but improves the general aggroness of the deck. You're not gaining that much relevant hate by playing black. Blue on the other hand I think gives you a few better hate cards than i think you get with black.
Yeah, Decay is really good. So is Maelstrom Pulse. I would definitely run both of those. Adding black does basically two things: It allows us to run a better removal package, and it enables us to run Knight of the Reliquary package. The down side is that we have to give up Arbiter and Thalia for that to happen.
The deck is pretty pricy these days.
Critters: 33
4 Noble Hierarch @ $59.50 = $198.00
1 Birds of Paradise @ $3.25 = $3.25
4 Leonin Arbiter @ $.70 = $2.80
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben @ $7.84 = $23.52
3 Scavenging Ooze @ $8.27 = $24.81
3 Voice of Resurgence @ $29.45 = $88.35
2 Qasali Pridemage @ $1.18 = $2.36
1 Spellskite @ $15.66 = $15.66
4 Loxodon Smiter @ $2.14 = $4.64
3 Aven Mindcensor @ $11.53 = $34.59
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence @ $34.99 = $34.99
2 Thrun, the Last Troll @ $11.05 = $22.10
2 Baneslayer Angel @ $13.19 = $26.38
Other Spells: 4
4 Path to Exile @ $6.32 = $25.28
Land: 23
4 Temple Garden @ $9.50 = $38.00
4 Razorverge Thicket @ $6.00 = $24.00
4 Ghost Quarter @ $.31 = $1.24
2 Tectonic Edge @ $4.97 = $9.94
3 Horizon Canopy @ $32.55 = $97.65
1 Stirring Wildwood @ $3.60 = $3.60
2 Plains
3 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben @ $7.84 = $7.84
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence @ $34.99 = $34.99
1 Spellskite @ $15.66 = $15.66
3 Torpor Orb @ $2.23 = $6.69
2 Stony Silence @ $.99 = $1.98
1 Worship @ $2.00 = $2.00
2 Engineered Explosives @ $5.99 = $11.98
2 Rest in Peace @ $1.13 = $2.26
2 Kitchen Finks @ $4.00 = $8.00
$772.56 total for my build from scratch.* On top of that, I have ~50 cards on hand for my deck to board in if the meta shifts.
(still need to pick up a singleton Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers)
*Prices are lowest average from tcgplayer.com
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Sad thing is this is still cheap for a competitive deck in Modern. Basically anything that doesn't run the BGx staples and or fetchlands at this point is "affordable". You could save some cash on this deck and replace Noble Hierarch with Birds of Paradise, but the exalted triggers are so useful I don't think I could contemplate doing so.
Mostly because I love Bant - what hate cards from blue would you consider as possibilities? Aforementioned Geist of Saint Traft seems like an autoinclude. I'm not sure I would play counters - maybe Remand or Spell Pierce or Unified Will could fit if going that route.
Soul sisters is another deck that gets wrecked by chalice of the void. You play it for one, and they either have to wear/tear it (if RW), or die. It blanks like, 25+ cards in their deck.
Unless you're on the draw. Right?
How does Chalice even work on the draw?
This is the part I basically don't get about chalcie without actual instant speed acceleration. By the time you play chalice for 1, they can drop 3 one drops. Sister, Norn and maybe another Sister. From that point, you're basically hosed without being able to play path? You can limit a lot of their draws, yes, but you can't actually deal with the board state from that point on. They play a Genesis Chamber and then it's game over, usually because you have so limited ways to interact with their board from that point forward.
Edit: I can see how it's good against small zoo or storm, but Soul Sisters just seems like not at all even good whatsoever.
A: I don't honestly see a ton of RW soul sisters. It seems like a worse version of the deck to me.
B: Our deck, while chock full of hate, is at heart an aggressive midrange deck. I honestly don't care if they start quick with like, 2 sisters and an ascendant. Their life gain is going to be hindered by the fact that they can't just poop out the rest of their hand. Chalice slows the game down by a fair bit.
C: My lategame is better than soul sisters. Between Elspeth, swords (both of which are pro white), Wilt leaf leige, and gavony township, inevitability is on my side. I realize not everyone runs all of these things.
D: Chalice doesn't murder their deck. They'll still be able to play magic. But it is a piece in a larger whole that with all our other hate cards, (torpor orb, qasali pridemage) can create a pretty hostile environment.
E: You aren't always on the draw
That said, EE is still really really good and I'm not disagreeing with anyone about that. But chalice is silly and wonderful and effective and I like it. Why not both?
It really depends on what variant you're playing against. Against the primarily creature build, Chalice is good (if on the play as mentioned). Against the Token and Norin versions, not so much. Actually, Engineered Explosives is one of the very few ways you can get rid of Norin the Wary. If you haven't seen Norin Soul Sisters yet, then you are really in for something different when you do. I've ran into it a couple times and it can get pretty ridiculous.
The truth is that I don't run Chalice of the Void because I don't like how terrible it is on the draw. At least Engineered Explosives is still effective either way.
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With our sb slots being as tight as it is, I feel chalice doesn't quite make my list since I play enough cross hate to not need/want it. Usually some combination of thalia, spellskite, worship, EE are enough to do the trick and they are always good when I board/have them, whereas I've still lost to exalted/penelhaven/blighted agent/inkmoth or a large enough pridemate (deck runs a number of 2cmc +) or a 2/3 aura'd bogle/spiritdancer with chalice out.
Outside of these matchups, I do see chalice being universally better against delver, storm; I also don't find chalice great against affinity and I'd rather have worship, EE, spellskite + creeping corrosion which I run in my sb.
B: GW is not a midrange deck. I don't know where that idea comes from. But I don't see it whatsoever. Yes, it can do some midrangey things, but in no way is it a midrange deck. It's a control deck more than anything. We're not aggressive, if we were, we'd play more cards like watchwolf and creatures that get considerably more offensive value. We're the control deck vs 80% of decks (Pod, UWR and Tron are the major ones I don't think we're not the beatdown for a majority of the matchup).
C: Against the mono-white version, I think that's probably correct, vs the RW version, I'm not even sure that's the case because they essentially just "combo out" on you, and are drawing to some quantity of wear and tear (or if they're playing Immortal Servitude, that just kinda bones Chalice too).
D: Sorry, I mistook "wrecked" for "murder". It is, but, we generally don't run a lot of other cards that interact with their deck, outside of Path, and with Chalice, that's not an option. Torpor Orb is really good, but if you're playing chalices, don't see one, and board out some number of paths, you're pretty much hoping that your creatures are better than their creatures, and most of the time, that's never going to be the case. We play creatures based more on their effects more than their stats or efficiency (see point B).
E: It's true, but if you're on the draw in G3, what are you doing?
F:
¿por qué no los dos?
Because modern sideboards are tighter than the 4 train during rush hour in NYC. I think that you end up reducing your total threats by playing too many non-creature cards, like Chalice replaces Thalia in my mind as being more effective vs Storm and little Zoo... but playing them in combination seems really weird too. Hatebears is a deck of 2/3 drops (as I pointed out, DOL's list runs like 15, mine runs 13). Chalice for 2 seems like the literal worst idea, Chalice for 1 turns off 6 draws (which ends up being a positive CA vs most decks, but you lose explosiveness, end up taking more hate from Blood Moon in the long run, and limit your ability to attack manabases). Chalice for 0 does work against exactly 3 decks. But when you side in both Chalice AND EE? It seems that you're playing to an angle that isn't working as well, and overloading a strategy with cards in hopes to lock them out, even though it puts a damper in your strategy as well.
I'm just saying: I don't like it. I think Chalice is a trashy card in this deck (but dear lord I love it in decks that play Simian Spirit Guide), and reducing your interactivity with other decks is nonsensical. Because really, outside of Path, we have minimal interaction with our opponents board.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Sad thing is this is still cheap for a competitive deck in Modern. Basically anything that doesn't run the BGx staples and or fetchlands at this point is "affordable". You could save some cash on this deck and replace Noble Hierarch with Birds of Paradise, but the exalted triggers are so useful I don't think I could contemplate doing so.
Yeah, but the bulk of the costs is in a few cards that you can build around not having. Canopy can be replaced with basics, Hearch--> birds( esp if you run vials) and voice can be replaced with some other two drop, upping the number of oozes is the first thing that comes to mind.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Basically one guy (Dr. Nutzlos) regularly tops DE's with it, and Jillypuff,_sickDraw, charlesthebananaking play essentially the same 75.
I've played the list, and it's a "similar", but no where close to the same deck. They're considerably more aggressive and less disruptive than the paper lists. Basically there's the MTGO version, and then there's the paper version (which I think the majority of players play on here). It's literally only as good as there's not torpor orbs in the format, the deck basically goes whoops vs it. I also don't know how it beats birthing pod all that often because even if it has Mindcensors and Arbiters, it usually doesn't have enough gas to get through their creatures in time vs Melira. I like to think that the paper lists generally do better vs pod than the MTGO lists.
Time4tea and Jonnny play a list closer to the paper lists here.
Honestly, if I had a bit more free time, I'd start jamming MTGO more.
Probably Vapor Snag as Path 4-6, Novijen, Heart of Progress, Coiling Oracle, Azorius Guildmage... try some things like that.