Torpor Orb though is pretty much the bees knees against most of the combo decks.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
Torpor Orb is good against so many decks. I recommend at least a 2 of, but I've been running 3 lately.
Rest in Peace should be in our boards if we aren't running any other grave hate. There are other cards to do this as well, but I found it's the most effective.
Glittering Wish is an interesting choice. I've seen decks run it before, but idk how good it will be here. It is nice to have a way to fetch silver bullets without being taxed by Arbiter though.
Sorry for the double post. Just finished updating the match up section in the OP (which is now the majority of the information in the Primer). There is also a new banner
Next up on my agenda is to update the card choices and meta grading guide.
Torpor Orb is good against a lot of the highly played decks, including a few matches that we really have a lot of problems against.
Twin - a deck we have real issues beating without many layers of hate for them to fight through
Melira Pod - shuts down a majority of their deck including their primary combo (Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder get around it unfortunately) and only really dies to Qasali Pridemage in this match
RUW Midrange - stops pretty much all of their creatures from doing anything other than flashing in during combat
RUW Control - same as RUW Midrange, but not as effective due to the fewer number of creatures in the deck
Kiki Pod - like Melira Pod, it stops the combo, and most of their deck as well
Faeries - stops a majority of their creatures (if not all) from having value
There may be others that I missed. I pretty much rely on it for Twin and both Pod match ups, but it has its uses outside of those particular games. Even with Linvala, Path, Pridemage, Spellskite, it doesn't hurt to have extra hate for those matches. Same thing with Scooze. It's better to have multiple angles to attack, and even though Scooze can eat spells in response to Snapcaster, you have to have Scooze on the table and mana open to activate it. Having both cards means you have more ways to interact with them, and having either is fine most of the time. I decided to up my Torpor Orb count to 3 right before the $5K event that I played in, and I was happy that I did because it came in for 4/8 match ups (American Midrange, Twin, Melira, Melira) and I was never unhappy to see multiples. It actually saved my butt twice where they could answer one, but not two.
Sajber. It's exactly as you notate: "I feel the sideboard in Hatebears is very tight and so far (after still limited playtesting)".
It's true, and that's exactly why Torpor Orb gets played over Grafdigger's. Grafdigger's is considerably more narrow than torpor orb, and we don't need necessarily the most effective SB cards, but the ones that will have the greatest overlap vs many other decks. Grafdigger's also runs along the same line of hate as a lot of the other hate cards that we have (Aven Mindcensor & Leonin Arbiter). Torpor Orb allows for hardcasted cards to not have as much value. You have to remember that against the Pod field, especially Kiki, there's a lot of redundnacy in the deck that sometimes they just "have" it. Grafdigger doesn't do much to stop them once they do have it in hand, whereas Torpor doesn't.
Edit: Re: Tron. GR? U? or UW? Most of the time GR can be hosed by the following: Burrington Forge-Tender. Ghost Quartering them even if you don't have a Arbiter out. Multiple Tec Edges. Just get beats in, save your removal for Wurmcoil (and don't take it all out). You don't have to be as aggressive, just know when you have to play around Firespout (aka, play your 3/4's and 4/4's, and be more judicious about what bears you throw out when). Mono U is just providing early beats and any taxing effects (like Arbiter & Thalia). UW is a bit tougher because they have a lot larger removal package, don't really care all that much about graveyard hate, and play more like a control deck than a tron deck.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
Melira or Kiki? And it's honestly not that poor in either situation, depending on which combo you're talking about.
Kiki-Pod is arguably our worse matchup (because Melira goes against our natural bias with GY hate), and it's very possible they have the combo more often because of the sheer amount of redundancy they have. It's close to a 25% chance they'll have drawn a kiki-jiki + combo piece by t5.
Melira's lower to about 10% by turn 5, but they do make up for it by generally being an even-par, but more explosive aggro version of our deck and usually can trade with us long enough to gain enough resources to combo.
Either way: I don't call 25% poor.
The other thing is is that pretty much every advanced level pod player pulls out their library searching cards if you show enough arbiters & mindcensors game 1. If you're bringing in additional hate towards the anti-searching if they're not going to search as much. They bring in cards like Thragtusk, Thrun and up their creature count, and usually cut some number of birthing pods & chords, the rest of the deck functions fine without those cards, and the cards they bring in are generally more useful than those cards they cut. You're trying to overload a strategy that they know they can't necessarily win.
Experience here tells me: Don't play Grafdigger's cage, especially because of Pod, because they usually do the opposite of what works pre-board. Don't take out your Arbiters & Mindcensors, but additional search hate isn't much better. And if they kill your Torpor Orb instead of a Worship or Arbiter, whatever, hopefully your creatures are getting in there and they're wasting resources on your ancillary cards.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
I'm not saying Grafdigger's Cage is a bad card to run. Maybe you run it in place of Rest in Peace (that is probably where I would make room in my sideboard if I wanted to run it), but I would still probably run Torpor Orb and then bring both in for Pod matches. The issue with using Cage over something like RiP is that it doesn't stop Living End from going off. The big thing for me about Cage vs Orb is that Cage doesn't do anything to Twin, which is one of the toughest matches without a lot of hate for them to fight through. While it's true that Pod decks can fetch up Qasali Pridemage, we have a lot of ways to make that harder than it sounds (via search hate). I can tell you from experience that Torpor Orb is really good in this format. Just look at all the top deck lists from PT Valencia and GP Richmond and count how many decks have Orb. It's in the sideboard of pretty much every deck that doesn't lose to it.
I don't run Chalice of the Void. You can feel free to run whatever you want, but to say that Torpor Orb is not worth running is only specific to your build. I find it to be the most valuable card in my sideboard. I won't drop it anytime soon.
I put a link to that post in the Primer under Chalice of the Void. I'll probably do more of an update on it when I get around to updating the individual card choices. It's good to know that even with Chalice set to 0, Amulet players can still force the Hive Mind trigger with a Pact (so it won't save you there).
Torpor Orb is also good against the soul sister variants, which is a pretty awful matchup without them and EE.
As for mana tithe, I think its great only because it get disrespected so much. I only have a experience with it in bogles, but some decks still run volcanic fallout/supreme verdict so it isn't 100% safe against sweepers, and you'd rather have dismember against the creature combos. Thalia is much better against the other combos, and tithe isn't great with her. On the plus, you do occasionally catch a wrath, t3 karn, cryptic command, or whatever, and net a big smile.
I've been giving fauna shaman a try again, and it just doesn't do anything currently. Doesn't block, beat, or survive any removal, so it's a bit of a trap for people looking to tinker with the general list.
Unfortunately I cannot find a Bant thread to lurk in (nvm found it; thought it was the troll worship one), and since GWB gets a mention here, I'll ask if anyone has any experience with it. Counters are decent against combo, so thalia can be removed/in the sb and rhox war monks are great anti-aggro. You still get the mindcensors (and arbiters if you want), and run fetches for basics/kotr. Mana denial becomes less of a thing though.
Unfortunately I cannot find a Bant thread to lurk in (nvm found it; thought it was the troll worship one), and since GWB gets a mention here, I'll ask if anyone has any experience with it. Counters are decent against combo, so thalia can be removed/in the sb and rhox war monks are great anti-aggro. You still get the mindcensors (and arbiters if you want), and run fetches for basics/kotr. Mana denial becomes less of a thing though.
Not trying to turn the focus to Bant - but considering the recent "what finisher should you use" discussion, Geist of St Traft would be the finisher of choice for me.
Now that I think of it, with just 5 dorks I could contemplate running one of him as the only blue card. Maybe even easier to do if you also play with Vials.
I really wish I had more experience playing Junk (WGB) builds but I've only played that version a handful of times. KotR is very good. Lack of Deathrite Shaman does hurt that build's versatility. Having access to both Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse gives us a better removal package, although running these cards means we have to give up Thalia and Arbiter (at least we should). I also really like Orzhov Pontiff. It's on my list of things to test, but I don't have as much time as I would like to play.
The only thing I miss in giving up black is thoughtseize/inquisition. The ability to massacre combos and pick them apart is sorely lacking in GW. We can slow them down, yes. But it sometimes can be hard to stop them altogether.
I did play a heavy disruption Junk build with IoK, Tidehollow Sculler, etc.. it was more of a taxes build with flicker effects and Aether Vial. It was not nearly as effective as straight WG. I gave up on that but it might be worth testing a more Hatebears plan.
A one-of Geist of Saint Traft is an interesting idea. I play 6 mana dorks so it shouldn't be hard to come by the blue mana, and the Time of Need in my sideboard can make two of him (in a sense) if I need to. Man, I've been running 3x Dryad Militant, and I couldn't be happier! I also upped my Thalia, Guardian of Thraben count to 3. She's a star! I've been playing against a lot of Storm and UWR Control, and DM and Thalia have just been shutting them down. Especially when I've dropped both on turn 2, oh man. I also added Elspeth, Knight-Errant after seeing y'all talk about her (I never need much of an excuse to throw her in a deck, I love that card), and she's been fantastic! Adds another dimension to the deck. Although it does suck to draw her after I've played Thalia. That singleton Rancor has been doing work as well. Worship has also won me a couple of games on its own.
A one-of Geist of Saint Traft is an interesting idea. I play 6 mana dorks so it shouldn't be hard to come by the blue mana, and the Time of Need in my sideboard can make two of him (in a sense) if I need to.
Yea, since i mentioned it earlier its been in the back of my mind. I love GoST so much, I'll probably have to try it this week to at least know if its a good or bad idea.
Haven't tried Spirit of the Labyrinth - but it isn't the number of cards they draw but the spells they play that I'm more concerned with. All else equal if I'm playing a card draw/spell count hatebear I'd probably go Ethersworn Canonist / Rule of Law instead.
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Torpor Orb though is pretty much the bees knees against most of the combo decks.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Rest in Peace should be in our boards if we aren't running any other grave hate. There are other cards to do this as well, but I found it's the most effective.
Glittering Wish is an interesting choice. I've seen decks run it before, but idk how good it will be here. It is nice to have a way to fetch silver bullets without being taxed by Arbiter though.
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Next up on my agenda is to update the card choices and meta grading guide.
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Twin - a deck we have real issues beating without many layers of hate for them to fight through
Melira Pod - shuts down a majority of their deck including their primary combo (Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder get around it unfortunately) and only really dies to Qasali Pridemage in this match
RUW Midrange - stops pretty much all of their creatures from doing anything other than flashing in during combat
RUW Control - same as RUW Midrange, but not as effective due to the fewer number of creatures in the deck
Kiki Pod - like Melira Pod, it stops the combo, and most of their deck as well
Faeries - stops a majority of their creatures (if not all) from having value
There may be others that I missed. I pretty much rely on it for Twin and both Pod match ups, but it has its uses outside of those particular games. Even with Linvala, Path, Pridemage, Spellskite, it doesn't hurt to have extra hate for those matches. Same thing with Scooze. It's better to have multiple angles to attack, and even though Scooze can eat spells in response to Snapcaster, you have to have Scooze on the table and mana open to activate it. Having both cards means you have more ways to interact with them, and having either is fine most of the time. I decided to up my Torpor Orb count to 3 right before the $5K event that I played in, and I was happy that I did because it came in for 4/8 match ups (American Midrange, Twin, Melira, Melira) and I was never unhappy to see multiples. It actually saved my butt twice where they could answer one, but not two.
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I tend to struggle vs tron more than anything else, advice for the matchup?
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
It's true, and that's exactly why Torpor Orb gets played over Grafdigger's. Grafdigger's is considerably more narrow than torpor orb, and we don't need necessarily the most effective SB cards, but the ones that will have the greatest overlap vs many other decks. Grafdigger's also runs along the same line of hate as a lot of the other hate cards that we have (Aven Mindcensor & Leonin Arbiter). Torpor Orb allows for hardcasted cards to not have as much value. You have to remember that against the Pod field, especially Kiki, there's a lot of redundnacy in the deck that sometimes they just "have" it. Grafdigger doesn't do much to stop them once they do have it in hand, whereas Torpor doesn't.
Edit: Re: Tron. GR? U? or UW? Most of the time GR can be hosed by the following: Burrington Forge-Tender. Ghost Quartering them even if you don't have a Arbiter out. Multiple Tec Edges. Just get beats in, save your removal for Wurmcoil (and don't take it all out). You don't have to be as aggressive, just know when you have to play around Firespout (aka, play your 3/4's and 4/4's, and be more judicious about what bears you throw out when). Mono U is just providing early beats and any taxing effects (like Arbiter & Thalia). UW is a bit tougher because they have a lot larger removal package, don't really care all that much about graveyard hate, and play more like a control deck than a tron deck.
Kiki-Pod is arguably our worse matchup (because Melira goes against our natural bias with GY hate), and it's very possible they have the combo more often because of the sheer amount of redundancy they have. It's close to a 25% chance they'll have drawn a kiki-jiki + combo piece by t5.
Melira's lower to about 10% by turn 5, but they do make up for it by generally being an even-par, but more explosive aggro version of our deck and usually can trade with us long enough to gain enough resources to combo.
Either way: I don't call 25% poor.
The other thing is is that pretty much every advanced level pod player pulls out their library searching cards if you show enough arbiters & mindcensors game 1. If you're bringing in additional hate towards the anti-searching if they're not going to search as much. They bring in cards like Thragtusk, Thrun and up their creature count, and usually cut some number of birthing pods & chords, the rest of the deck functions fine without those cards, and the cards they bring in are generally more useful than those cards they cut. You're trying to overload a strategy that they know they can't necessarily win.
Experience here tells me: Don't play Grafdigger's cage, especially because of Pod, because they usually do the opposite of what works pre-board. Don't take out your Arbiters & Mindcensors, but additional search hate isn't much better. And if they kill your Torpor Orb instead of a Worship or Arbiter, whatever, hopefully your creatures are getting in there and they're wasting resources on your ancillary cards.
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As for mana tithe, I think its great only because it get disrespected so much. I only have a experience with it in bogles, but some decks still run volcanic fallout/supreme verdict so it isn't 100% safe against sweepers, and you'd rather have dismember against the creature combos. Thalia is much better against the other combos, and tithe isn't great with her. On the plus, you do occasionally catch a wrath, t3 karn, cryptic command, or whatever, and net a big smile.
I've been giving fauna shaman a try again, and it just doesn't do anything currently. Doesn't block, beat, or survive any removal, so it's a bit of a trap for people looking to tinker with the general list.
Unfortunately I cannot find a Bant thread to lurk in (nvm found it; thought it was the troll worship one), and since GWB gets a mention here, I'll ask if anyone has any experience with it. Counters are decent against combo, so thalia can be removed/in the sb and rhox war monks are great anti-aggro. You still get the mindcensors (and arbiters if you want), and run fetches for basics/kotr. Mana denial becomes less of a thing though.
Not trying to turn the focus to Bant - but considering the recent "what finisher should you use" discussion, Geist of St Traft would be the finisher of choice for me.
Now that I think of it, with just 5 dorks I could contemplate running one of him as the only blue card. Maybe even easier to do if you also play with Vials.
I really wish I had more experience playing Junk (WGB) builds but I've only played that version a handful of times. KotR is very good. Lack of Deathrite Shaman does hurt that build's versatility. Having access to both Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse gives us a better removal package, although running these cards means we have to give up Thalia and Arbiter (at least we should). I also really like Orzhov Pontiff. It's on my list of things to test, but I don't have as much time as I would like to play.
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What do y'all think about Spirit of the Labyrinth?
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Yea, since i mentioned it earlier its been in the back of my mind. I love GoST so much, I'll probably have to try it this week to at least know if its a good or bad idea.
Haven't tried Spirit of the Labyrinth - but it isn't the number of cards they draw but the spells they play that I'm more concerned with. All else equal if I'm playing a card draw/spell count hatebear I'd probably go Ethersworn Canonist / Rule of Law instead.