DOL, thanks for the write ups on the match ups. I take it these will end up in the Primer soon? The primer is going to be a real tomb of knowledge for this deck with all of this analysis added!
Let's take a look at the Hatebears list that just made the finals of a ChannelFireball 5k (!)
First off, that sideboard and most of the main deck #s look VERY familiar. Give yourselves a pat on the back for coming to a consensus with this list. Many of these cards are proving their worth in real tournament situations and at high levels of play. This is a HUGE deal for us! This means we're on the right track with things like Chalice, Seal of Primordium, Choke, etc.
I'd like to know how the Brimaz worked out for this player. I wanted to test it out, but I can only test so much in the time that I have. It seems like a solid creature, and its one that we have discussed on here before. Its not technically a "hate" card, but I imagine it is a powerful creature that will slow down Zoo and our midrange opposition.
Did anyone watch the coverage of this finals match? I know Affinity won, and I'd like to know what happened. This list does NOT run Worship or Engineered Explosives, and I'm wondering if that was an issue or if it was something else. I do like how this runs Stony Silence since it does not have Explosives.
Hey, ok, sorry for the couple day absence since talking sooner gives you more time to prepare for Richmond. A few days before the 5k I pinched my Sciatic nerve and have been on pain meds/relaxants ever since. Anyways, I was supposed to have 1 worship main and 1 in the board and they talk about it on the coverage. I replaced the one in the board with the sovereign and the one in the main with the 3rd scavenging ooze. I also was supposed to have a damping matrix and couldn't find one for the event and that became the stony silence. Not sure how much that cost me or helped me overall. If I would have drawn a worship against affinity I would have won whatever game I drew it in. On Brimaz, I don't think he's worth it mainly because all he really does is be an aggressive 3 drop. He doesn't die to bolt (which was the real reason i ran him), but he doesn't do much for the board state in a format dominated by combo. I would still have worship in the main and probably make Brimaz my 3rd scavenging ooze if I was playing again. As far as what I faced at the event:
Round 1. 2-0 Random homebrew (curse?) deck. This guy didn't get to do much, he was land screwed in game 1 and relied on things like solemn to accelerate into high end spells.
Round 2, 2-0 U/W Control. Game 1 I just forced him into using removal and counters on a few early things, then dropped arbiter with double ghost quarter out and punished his mana base then dropped double smiter and finished him. Game 2 he cryptic commanded my turn 4 smiter (lol), then i dropped choke on turn 5 after he flashed in a resto angel to block and flicker his wall of omens.
Round 3, 2-1 Bogle. Game 1 He mulls to 6 on the play, I get the hierarch/arbiter/ghost quarter hand. However, he hits two mana on his 2nd turn drops spiritdancer, i strip mine him, he plays a one drop enchantment on his guy, draws, plays a land and another, swings, and eventually kills me since i can't draw a path. Game 2, I drop turn 2 chalice for 1, turn 3 chalice for 2. He draws 2 more cards and just scoops. Game 3, He mulls to 5 plays and plays 2 gladecover scouts and 1 bogle along with 1 spider umbra the whole game.
Round 4, 2-1 B/G Rock. Game 1. Was a feature match also, I don't 100% remember what happened here, I remember I get a quick start and punish his lands early and get him pretty low, but he draws finks and a bunch of removal and almost comes back before I finish him. Game 2. I got dominated, think I drew a bunch of land to his aggressive start and removal. Game 3. Close game, end up pulling through barely.
Round 5, 2-0 Melira Pod. Game 1. Deck does what it's supposed to, he never gets to search for much and doesn't draw out of it, however the game goes long probably about 30 minutes. Game 2. I barely win this game due to nicely timed top decks, but manage to pull out against his aggressive curve for pod.
Round 6, 2-1 Merfolk Game 1. Opponent mulligans to 4 and never really does much. Game 2. opponent drops vial turn 1, lord turn 2 double lord turn 3, double lord turn 4, i die. Game 3. I resolve choke, he doesn't have a vial. I do get beat down for a bit before stabilizing and winning.
Round 7 and 8 Both ID
Top 8. Seeded 2nd
Quarterfinals vs UWR Twin. 2-0 Game 1. Opponent mulligans to 5 and I am aggressive during most of it, I do make an error where I could win by declaring go to attackers instead of activating my stirring wildwood, I then start activating it not realizing what I did and my opponent looks at me weirdly and then looks at the judge and i'm like wait, I just said attackers didn't I. Judge says we are at beginning of attack step and I passed my priority so it's my opponents priority. They guy just scoops and says he's not going to win anyways althouhg he would have had another draw step because of me brain farting (I was on a lot of medication remember) Game 2. I again start out aggressive and push smiter/arbiter down, on turn 5 (he missed a land drop) I declare attackers and he flashes in resto and flickers wall of omens, I let that resolve and since I have an arbiter in play I path his angel so he can't block with it, then drop choke on his tapped manabase (all have type island). Two turns later I'm in the semis.
Semis and Finals are on the link posted earlier.
Great to see choke doing noticeable work. Won at least two games, from what I can tell!
I've got two questions for you:
1. Which cards were MVPs in matchups or the entire tournament?
2. Which cards felt lackluster?
3. How would you change the deck after this tournament you played?
Lastly, congratulations on the result! 2nd place is nothing to scoff at. Really well done! I think we are all at least a little bit proud of you.
I was/am testing Rancor. It's much better than Nylea imo. I say this because it only costs 1 mana. You can use it to effectively bait their removal/counter magic. If they decide to counter you only tapped 1, and can then follow up with dropping a finisher or whatever you really wanted to resolve. The +2/+0 is relevant too, increasing the clock of anything I have coming in. I wouldn't even mind casting this on a mana dork turn 2 and swinging.
Nylea costs 4, and there is already a large number of cards that cost 4 fighting for a spot in this deck. It also doesn't come with a body unless you have devotion going, which is a real drag to tap out 4 for.
I get the CMC issue, but before we forget it was replacing Baneslayer Angel at the 5CMC spot.
I do understand all the issues you mentioned though, but just thought it might be a consideration.
If only Karametra had a useful ability. Heliod might not be too bad if we like vigilance.
I would really like to find a consistent finisher that doesn't cost more than 4cmc. That is a big part of why I am testing out Rancor, among other things. Wilt-Leaf Liege and Thrun, the Last Troll really look like our best options without going to 5 mana. I'm really looking to find the best combination of finishers right now. Maybe Elspeth, Knight-Errant should be in there too.
Isn't the problem with non-creature finishers like elspeth that they're, well, non-creatures. The beauty of this deck is that almost all of the creatures are both hate and finishers. Just the two you mentioned, Thrun, the Last Troll and Wilt-Leaf Liege are great against certain decks. For the less informed reader: Thrun is amazing combined with Worship and vs anything that wants to counter our threats; WLL is great vs anything that makes us discard and any deck that runs pyroclasm (amazing vs jund).
That's the thing. I haven't found one either, and I don't like WLL enough to actually play it anymore. Hero of Bladehold is... okay, but honestly worse than just playing Brimaz...
I suppose a good question to ask is: When do you need finishers? When is Loxodon Smiter not enough? Hypothetically you could skip playing a finisher, and instead go with like, brave the elements... but, as someone who's forsaken Baneslayer for a while. I've thought about this sometimes. There's not a ton of matchups that I can't finish out with Mirran Crusader or Smiter, or a fat Scooze, but most games it's just swinging with a plethora of 2/2's that make the difference, not 6/6 elephants.
I think the only time I really want finishers is against decks that can turn games around very quickly, and that primarily is: URx and Pod. Twin, and most of the other combo decks don't need as aggressive of a clock (a pair of 2/2's usually does the trick. 4 attack steps is pretty much everything needed). The rest of the decks I'm usually OK with grinding them out with a Worship.
So, what finishers are good vs UWR and Pod? Uh. That's a good question. I don't see them. Creatures with flying don't do it because of the sheer amount of flyers that both decks have... so, I think you have to look at protection or trample as the way to punish the decks. I think Rancor has to be one of the better options. There aren't any white creatures outside of Mirran Crusader with pro-green (it's not very common at all). Oversoul of Dusk has pro-red and pro-blue (and pro-black). But it is pretty much worse than Baneslayer in all regards. Trample is very good vs Pod, but not very good vs UWR. Cards with big backends are good vs UWR. Elspeth is very good vs UWR. Elspeth is not very good vs Pod. And that's the problem that we have, I think. Either you sell out to being good at closing out UWR games, or sell out at being good vs Pod games. I've chosen the latter, because I feel better about grinding out UWR post-board than I do pod most of the time.
Just a curious thought: If baneslayer's really good in the affinity matchup, but fracturing gust is too slow... how does that work? Another positive to fracturing gust over creeping corrosion is: fracturing gust is an instant, which gets blinkmoths, inkmoths, and mothmoths.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
Just a curious thought: If baneslayer's really good in the affinity matchup, but fracturing gust is too slow... how does that work? Another positive to fracturing gust over creeping corrosion is: fracturing gust is an instant, which gets blinkmoths, inkmoths, and mothmoths.
You also gain the life immediately vs. baneslayer, which is nice.
I've been rethinking Baneslayer in my deck lately (run 2 currently) and one of the main reasons I still have her is the lifegain - just hitting once typically swings it enough to keep me in the game. I'd like to replace them with something that doesn't cost as much and I keep looking at the Mirran Crusader. Comes out quicker, has protection, hits like a truck especialy with 7-8 exalted sources. Maybe with a few of them MD I wouldn't find myself in so many drawn-out matches where I need the lifegain. Could also take the 1-2 Sword of WP/LS for some lifegain on that route too.
Picking up the hatebears. Working on a deck for preliminary playtesting, going vial-less and larger with less bears.
Got some Q's for you guys though on cards I'm not sure of,
- Why do some players drop to 3 Voice?
- Seal of Primordium seems terribly underwhelming, what's the merit behind this card? Pridemage etc just seems stronger.
- Stony Silence seems to be be met with mild interest here, to me it feels like one of the best white hatecards vs tron and affinity?
- Birds of Paradise? At an immediate glance I feel it's a card I wouldn't have in the deck for similar reasons to vial. Is it really a card we need and why is 2 a popular number?
- Baneslayer seems steep at 5 mana. Flying lifelink + first strike is obviously great but that's IF you're under pressure, IF you're not already dead and IF you even have 5 mana, not to mention, not getting punished for tapping out for it.
I dropped to 3 Voice to be able to fit in other things. I've seen people play 4, but I've never had an issue with 3. He's great against some decks, mediocre against others imo.
Seal of primordium is more resilient than pridemages, being an enchantment. Its nice in that it can sit there from t2 onward and it can impact how the opponent plays as a result. Another option would be Aura of Silence for similar sacrifice effect and tax. Its just an extra piece of enchantment / artifact removal when needed.
Stony is good against affinty. I've had mixed results with tron. It slows them down but doesn't really stop their game plan as much as it would seem, in my experience.
Birds people run as a 1-2 of typically to get a greater probability of being able to play Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter on turn 2. That play can be devastating against many decks and can turn an opponents so-so hand in to garbage pretty quickly.
Baneslayer seems to mostly be in a quantity of 1-2 if people play them. I like having her around for breaking up parity on a board state. Lifegain/flying and large body all relevant. If you're going to include 5cmc in your curve (not everyone does) then Baneslayer or Batterskull are probably two of the better choices, each with their various pros and cons.
- Seal of Primordium seems terribly underwhelming, what's the merit behind this card? Pridemage etc just seems stronger.
I agree, but mostly it's unboltable.
- Stony Silence seems to be be met with mild interest here, to me it feels like one of the best white hatecards vs tron and affinity?
I can't disagree with its effectiveness vs Tron, but vs Affinity is where I think we draw the most criticism towards it. The problem with it is that Affinity needs more reactive control elements. What does Affinity fear? Reactive Board Wipes and Spot Removal. I can't really tell the amount of times vs Affinity that Stony Silence hasn't gotten there. Like, on the play, you expect it to be very good because you can lock them after 1 mana, but on the draw, they've often emptied their hand on T2. Your proactive hatebears (including Stony Silence) are just not nearly as effective vs Affinity.
- Birds of Paradise? At an immediate glance I feel it's a card I wouldn't have in the deck for similar reasons to vial. Is it really a card we need and why is 2 a popular number?
Look at the manabases, look at the quantity of 3 drops. I think they go hand in hand. You need #1) Explosiveness and #2) Consistency, and Birds help with both of those, IMO. I used to not run birds, when I was running 4 vials, but as I've reduced the # of Vials I've played, I've increased the number of Birds because you're allowed the *almost* maximum amount of opportunities to go, on the play, t1, birds, t2 arbiter ghost quarter/strip mine, go. I could probably dig up the percentages, but without birds, you get that opportunity, 6.5% of the time, 2 birds adds another 3.5% chance that you will have all 3 in your hand on the play. What's worse? Drawing a land, or drawing a bird? The deck, without dorks or vials, should probably play 26 lands with baneslayer if you want to reasonably cast it whatsoever at all. The other thing is: We're vulnerable to Blood Moon. Dorks help alleviate that.
- Baneslayer seems steep at 5 mana. Flying lifelink + first strike is obviously great but that's IF you're under pressure, IF you're not already dead and IF you even have 5 mana, not to mention, not getting punished for tapping out for it.
That's pretty much what we've been discussing the past few days. I've not been on the baneslayer train since about a week after GP Brisbane where I took Richard Likht's list and gave it a run (I was baneslayer-less before and after). I feel similarly about Baneslayer, and that Worship effectively replaces Baneslayer because the lifegain aspect of Baneslayer isn't important when you're playing Worship. The body is though. I think you're underestimating/not evaluating the power of Worship though. I think a lot more of it makes sense when you just realize you can't really lose with it some times.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
One other note about Birds - they fly. While I certainly wouldn't ever count upon it, flying + 7-8 exalted creatures in the deck is certainly not the worst thing in the world. Its definitely won a game or three for me in the past.
I feel 3 Voice is a good number, since it's great against all the control/tempo decks, but it's not a fast clock/disruption against combo and not great against aggro decks either (gives you 2 chump blockers for the price of 1, I guess).
Seal of Primordium is good because you get to drop it and forget about it until you need it, it is also harder to remove. I don't run it in my 75, but it's very versatile.
Stony Silence is great, some people don't run it because it conflicts a bit with vials, swords, EE. Since we have access to creeping corrosion and fracturing gusts for affinity, it isn't a must have.
I've flipped between 0-2 bop, and it should differ from list to list. Bop, helps us drop T2 smiters, swords, mindcensors more consistently and gives a us a little more option with EE. Scooze can get pretty mana intensive, and sometimes you want to have extra mana up for qasali, removal, arbiter and gavony activations.
I like to have at least 1 baneslayer because without them we simply have no game against "real" midrange decks. Most of the lists are loaded with 2 drop bears that cannot finish games quick or provide much utility against creature-centric decks outside of land destruction. imo thats why we struggle against soul sister (lifegain is the big issue), merfolk, tokens, BG/junk with obliterators/kotr , and big zoo; I can see Wilt-leaf's anthem helping here, but evasion is often overlooked.
I think rancor is the best replacement for a finisher, it gives the trample damage, recursion, but no lifegain. Brimaz has been underwhelming for me and I haven't found much use for crusader outside of pod/BGx. Another issue with crusader is, you need to have a few exalted sources (which have no protection) or else you're easily losing the race.
@ToonBoon, I've been trying a 1-of Elspeth and I don't feel it's a win more. It helps on defense by providing chump blockers, can transition to provide large evasive beaters and leave you with a board after wraths.
Elspeth + Mirran Crusader = 10 damage skylancer of doom.
I'll give Elspeth a whirl. I think it'd probably be the best 1 for 1 swap with SoWaP...
Maybe it's just me though, but I think I have to be playing the deck differently, conceptually, from most. Against Midrange decks, we're the control deck. We're actually more often than not, the control deck. We're not putting pressure on until we're winning unless we're playing a real control deck, and then we have to be the aggro deck. It's like with Big Zoo. Basically you're looking to hurt their manabase to keep them off of playing Hellkite. KoTR isn't that scary most of the time with Scavenging Ooze & Arbiter, and then you're running them out of viable threats. When you establish control, our top decks are usually more relevant than most midrange top decks because you slowly establish a bigger board presence and just punch through slowly.
The deck really just transitions really well from aggro to control. More often than not, our aggro potential is completely dwarfed by real aggro decks (Merfolk, Boggles & Zoo), but against control and combo, there's some times we can just sneak under on the play and do chunks of 6 damage at a time. And the beautiful part is that those kind of games usually set up nicely if you can't finish them out to transition into a longer midrangey game.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
DOL, thanks for the write ups on the match ups. I take it these will end up in the Primer soon? The primer is going to be a real tomb of knowledge for this deck with all of this analysis added!
Let's take a look at the Hatebears list that just made the finals of a ChannelFireball 5k (!)
First off, that sideboard and most of the main deck #s look VERY familiar. Give yourselves a pat on the back for coming to a consensus with this list. Many of these cards are proving their worth in real tournament situations and at high levels of play. This is a HUGE deal for us! This means we're on the right track with things like Chalice, Seal of Primordium, Choke, etc.
I'd like to know how the Brimaz worked out for this player. I wanted to test it out, but I can only test so much in the time that I have. It seems like a solid creature, and its one that we have discussed on here before. Its not technically a "hate" card, but I imagine it is a powerful creature that will slow down Zoo and our midrange opposition.
Did anyone watch the coverage of this finals match? I know Affinity won, and I'd like to know what happened. This list does NOT run Worship or Engineered Explosives, and I'm wondering if that was an issue or if it was something else. I do like how this runs Stony Silence since it does not have Explosives.
Hey, ok, sorry for the couple day absence since talking sooner gives you more time to prepare for Richmond. A few days before the 5k I pinched my Sciatic nerve and have been on pain meds/relaxants ever since. Anyways, I was supposed to have 1 worship main and 1 in the board and they talk about it on the coverage. I replaced the one in the board with the sovereign and the one in the main with the 3rd scavenging ooze. I also was supposed to have a damping matrix and couldn't find one for the event and that became the stony silence. Not sure how much that cost me or helped me overall. If I would have drawn a worship against affinity I would have won whatever game I drew it in. On Brimaz, I don't think he's worth it mainly because all he really does is be an aggressive 3 drop. He doesn't die to bolt (which was the real reason i ran him), but he doesn't do much for the board state in a format dominated by combo. I would still have worship in the main and probably make Brimaz my 3rd scavenging ooze if I was playing again. As far as what I faced at the event:
Round 1. 2-0 Random homebrew (curse?) deck. This guy didn't get to do much, he was land screwed in game 1 and relied on things like solemn to accelerate into high end spells.
Round 2, 2-0 U/W Control. Game 1 I just forced him into using removal and counters on a few early things, then dropped arbiter with double ghost quarter out and punished his mana base then dropped double smiter and finished him. Game 2 he cryptic commanded my turn 4 smiter (lol), then i dropped choke on turn 5 after he flashed in a resto angel to block and flicker his wall of omens.
Round 3, 2-1 Bogle. Game 1 He mulls to 6 on the play, I get the hierarch/arbiter/ghost quarter hand. However, he hits two mana on his 2nd turn drops spiritdancer, i strip mine him, he plays a one drop enchantment on his guy, draws, plays a land and another, swings, and eventually kills me since i can't draw a path. Game 2, I drop turn 2 chalice for 1, turn 3 chalice for 2. He draws 2 more cards and just scoops. Game 3, He mulls to 5 plays and plays 2 gladecover scouts and 1 bogle along with 1 spider umbra the whole game.
Round 4, 2-1 B/G Rock. Game 1. Was a feature match also, I don't 100% remember what happened here, I remember I get a quick start and punish his lands early and get him pretty low, but he draws finks and a bunch of removal and almost comes back before I finish him. Game 2. I got dominated, think I drew a bunch of land to his aggressive start and removal. Game 3. Close game, end up pulling through barely.
Round 5, 2-0 Melira Pod. Game 1. Deck does what it's supposed to, he never gets to search for much and doesn't draw out of it, however the game goes long probably about 30 minutes. Game 2. I barely win this game due to nicely timed top decks, but manage to pull out against his aggressive curve for pod.
Round 6, 2-1 Merfolk Game 1. Opponent mulligans to 4 and never really does much. Game 2. opponent drops vial turn 1, lord turn 2 double lord turn 3, double lord turn 4, i die. Game 3. I resolve choke, he doesn't have a vial. I do get beat down for a bit before stabilizing and winning.
Round 7 and 8 Both ID
Top 8. Seeded 2nd
Quarterfinals vs UWR Twin. 2-0 Game 1. Opponent mulligans to 5 and I am aggressive during most of it, I do make an error where I could win by declaring go to attackers instead of activating my stirring wildwood, I then start activating it not realizing what I did and my opponent looks at me weirdly and then looks at the judge and i'm like wait, I just said attackers didn't I. Judge says we are at beginning of attack step and I passed my priority so it's my opponents priority. They guy just scoops and says he's not going to win anyways althouhg he would have had another draw step because of me brain farting (I was on a lot of medication remember) Game 2. I again start out aggressive and push smiter/arbiter down, on turn 5 (he missed a land drop) I declare attackers and he flashes in resto and flickers wall of omens, I let that resolve and since I have an arbiter in play I path his angel so he can't block with it, then drop choke on his tapped manabase (all have type island). Two turns later I'm in the semis.
Semis and Finals are on the link posted earlier.
Great to see choke doing noticeable work. Won at least two games, from what I can tell!
I've got two questions for you:
1. Which cards were MVPs in matchups or the entire tournament?
2. Which cards felt lackluster?
3. How would you change the deck after this tournament you played?
Lastly, congratulations on the result! 2nd place is nothing to scoff at. Really well done! I think we are all at least a little bit proud of you.
EDIT: Of course, three questions.
Answers:
1. Smiter was great throughout the day, played against decks with blue and bolt all throughout the day and it was excellent. Arbiter while not great as a beater and not good against some of the matchups was almost always valid due to ghost quarter/path and people tapping out quite a lot in modern. Especially against blue after choke is boarded in, you blow up their non island blue sources even without an arbiter, there is just so much synergy with the deck that it makes it pretty amazing. I also was never sorry to draw scavenging ooze because a lot of match ups are races and the ooze tilts the race quite a bit. To be honest I liked every card in my list with the exception of probably Brimaz and not having worships. You just have catch alls throughout your deck for a format that is largely combo driven which is an amazing feeling.
2. Brimaz, just doesn't do enough. Will replace with the worship I wanted in the main. Stony Silence is supposed to be a worship also, one main, one board.
3. The same list you have seen, take out Brimaz, replace with worship, sideboard take out stony silence, replace with worship, take out sovereign and replace with damping matrix. I didn't play against blue moon, but I still like seal for decks packing blood moon to go with the pridemages. Against affinity I got pretty wrecked, but the guy did draw pretty well especially given the fact that he mulligan'd both games. Either of those if I had a worship or in game 1 an earlier removal spell I would have been fine, or in game 2 a chalice in my opening hand.
I understand what you're saying about transitioning to the later portion of the game with a lead, but I find these midrange battles quite difficult to win without a big lead. In most cases, the only thing stopping us getting beatdown is smiter, and occasionally crusader. Most of these stalls end up being unfavourable when pod elects to combo off/get bigger with their gavony, merfolk gets evasion/more lords, big zoo drops hellkite, soul sisters gets huge pridemages/ascendants, and tokens get enough anthem/CA (nothing much we about this one). Since these problem come from creature stalls on board and not against control/combo, I feel that's why we need an Elspeth, gavony, sword, worship, baneslayer, or some combination to eventually win.
Against Big zoo, if you're keeping them off 5 mana with LD, those Kotr are going to be an issue, yes scooze helps, but if you're going after their lands in the gy, your scooze won't be punching through much, notably 3/3 nacatls, goyfs, other smiters and scoozes. Big zoo is also running their own mana dorks, a couple basics, and around 12 pieces of removal for arbiter which is definitely trouble for lists without tect edges. In any case, the real hero in these kinds of games are the worships, which is the strongest reason why Baneslayer isn't "necessary" and we eventually get there with flyers or a big exalted creature.
I've given a lot of thought about it today and my thoughts on finishers are along these lines: I want something with evasion that survives bolt and can increase our clock. Flying, Trample and color protection are the three types of evasion I have been looking at. I like flying the most because some decks can't stop them. Jund, Zoo, and a few others have no flyers at all. My options for solid flying finishers are really Baneslayer Angel and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I like Elspeth because she is a bit cheaper, can effectively swing the turn she is played (make your Smiter a 7/7 flying seems solid). She can also pump out tokens, so I am getting really behind her as an option. There was also the fact that she survives Wrath mentioned earlier. I like all of that, so she is next on my testing agenda. BTW: Hierach -> Crusader -> Elspeth is insane.
Baneslayer is really good too. The problem I have though is that some decks really don't care about her. She is great against anything not combo, but as soon as I am up against a combo deck she becomes almost as bad as a dead card. Melira Pod is the only combo that I feel comfortable casting her against, and even then it's only when the board state is at a point where it's unlikely they can combo out. But against the decks where she is good, she is really really good.
We don't have a lot of options for Trample outside of Rancor and maybe something like Overwhelming Stampede or Garruk Wildspeaker. I'm inclined to not play Stampede or Garruk, so let's look at Rancor. Rancor has been good when I've played it. I've won games with it. I've also lost games with it. In both situations Rancor did a lot of work. It's never been OMG amazing, but it has always been good and never been bad. I'm still not sure if it makes a big enough impact though, and if it doesn't then I don't think it's worth the slot.
Color protection leads me to two options. Mirran Crusader is one, although I've found it to be underwhelming in the current meta. It's not bad, but it's definitely not as good as it was when BGx was 25% of the field. Swords are the other option. Sword of War and Peace and Sword of Feast and Famine both could see play here. I like F&F a little more because of the untap trigger. I won't mind tapping out to play and equip if I can untap my lands. The discard is nice too since it can restrict their options. W&P is more for the color protection, and to get past those pesky Tokens. I've also been considering Spirit Mantle lately.
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I've also come to a general decision on how to play Thrun and Linvala in the deck. I'm going with a 2 of each, with a 2/1 split maindeck and a singleton in the board. Both are good against various match ups. If I expect to see more control, I will go for 2 Thrun maindeck. If I expect to see more combo, I will go with 2 Linvala maindeck. I like having 2 of each in my 75, but I don't want to load them all up in the main deck. This seems like the right way to go about it.
I still haven't come to a conclusion on maindeck Worship yet. At this point I feel like I am getting tight on slots, but I still have some flexibility in my sideboard, so that is probably where it's going to stay for the time being.
(I've mostly played WW D&T and am busy building the GW deck - most pieces arriving next week)
In D&T they run 4 Aether Vial plus 3 1-drop (I ran 4 Dryad Militant because it has actual hate for Control and I wanted a faster start).
GW runs 4 Noble Hierarch and 1 to 2 Birds of Paradise in the one-drop position - so 1 to 2 less.
Now my thinking is that perhaps GW could look to including Dryad Militant in some form. With Wilt-Leaf Liege it becomes a 4/3 for 1.
I get that the question becomes - "what's the cut?", and I'm beginning to think it's from the top end of the curve. Thrun's, Baneslayers etc are nice - but are only finishers. Liege turns most of the creatures into finishers (6/6 Smiters, 4/4 Voices, 4/3 Dryad's, 4/4 Pridemages etc).
If I had to look at Caerthose529's decklist - I would think perhaps something like:
-1 Birds, -1 Brimaz, -2 Thrun, -1 Baneslayer
+3 Militant, +2 Liege
Perhaps a question to Caerthose529 - how did you find the extra Bird? Most lists seem to be on the 4+1 design, you went 4+2.
I'll be beginning to play-test all my own ideas soon (Legacy tournaments taking priority at the moment) - but I want to know if anyone has any thoughts on this?
****
PS DOL - ran Worship sideboard in D&T, also on the fence over mainboarding it. I brought it in in so many matches it seemed very worth it. It does again become a question of what to cut, but I never find it irrelevant.
Someone at one point asked why is Fracturing Gust bad where Baneslayer Angel was good. I can't find the post now, but I thought I would respond to that. No one is saying Gust is bad against Affinity. It certainly is good in that match up. The main statement was that if I wanted a card that was coming in against affinity, it wouldn't be a 5 drop. It's great to have cars that are good across multiple match ups, but if you're sideboarding a card for a specific match up, then it should be the most effective card for that match up. While Gust is certainly good against Affinity, there are other cards that are equally effective at a significantly lower converted mana cost.
Picking up the hatebears. Working on a deck for preliminary playtesting, going vial-less and larger with less bears.
Got some Q's for you guys though on cards I'm not sure of,
- Why do some players drop to 3 Voice?
- Seal of Primordium seems terribly underwhelming, what's the merit behind this card? Pridemage etc just seems stronger.
- Stony Silence seems to be be met with mild interest here, to me it feels like one of the best white hatecards vs tron and affinity?
- Birds of Paradise? At an immediate glance I feel it's a card I wouldn't have in the deck for similar reasons to vial. Is it really a card we need and why is 2 a popular number?
- Baneslayer seems steep at 5 mana. Flying lifelink + first strike is obviously great but that's IF you're under pressure, IF you're not already dead and IF you even have 5 mana, not to mention, not getting punished for tapping out for it.
Voice of Resurgence is a good card, but you rarely need more than one on the field. 3 is a good number to have it regularly, while still providing an extra (precious) card slot for something else.
Seal is played by some mostly for an extra out to Blue Moon decks. It's not for everybody though. I don't play it.
Stony Silence is a good card for both Affinity and Tron. I run it as a 2 of in my sideboard.
Birds are there as Noble Hierarch 5-7. It's not necessary, but this deck wants a mana dork on turn 1. Having 5+ helps increase the chances of that happening.
Baneslayer is solid against a lot of match ups, with only really being dead against combo. There has been talk of what to do with this slot lately. We've got options, but finding the best combination of them is proving to be a challenge.
I was/am testing Rancor. It's much better than Nylea imo. I say this because it only costs 1 mana. You can use it to effectively bait their removal/counter magic. If they decide to counter you only tapped 1, and can then follow up with dropping a finisher or whatever you really wanted to resolve. The +2/+0 is relevant too, increasing the clock of anything I have coming in. I wouldn't even mind casting this on a mana dork turn 2 and swinging.
Nylea costs 4, and there is already a large number of cards that cost 4 fighting for a spot in this deck. It also doesn't come with a body unless you have devotion going, which is a real drag to tap out 4 for.
DOLZero, do you still testing it!? How many copies and what did you move out from the deck?!
We're actually more often than not, the control deck. We're not putting pressure on until we're winning unless we're playing a real control deck, and then we have to be the aggro deck.
I've always viewed and played this deck as a G/W prison deck where the prison components turn sideways. The only time I ever actually try to race is - like you said - against a "real" control deck. Aside from those matches its all about locking the opponent down first and then worrying about killing them and this deck does that in spades. The creatures chosen for this archetype just can't keep up in pure p/t value to decks like zoo, merfolk, etc because we trade that raw power for forcing subtle (Voice) and not so subtle (thalia) changes to the other side of the board instead of just clearing a path for the most efficient 1-3 drops in the game.
Due to this, I look at a "finisher" as a handful of cards chosen more for their overall efficiency than adding disruption. Crusader, Baneslayer, Batterskull, WLL all certainly qualify as such. I'm in the middle of going through all the potential 4-drops and so far the only other thing I've seen is Hero of Bladehold but I dont think I would choose that over one of the previous options for this build. I like their built in evasion / disruption / protections more than pumping out dudes.
I was/am testing Rancor. It's much better than Nylea imo. I say this because it only costs 1 mana. You can use it to effectively bait their removal/counter magic. If they decide to counter you only tapped 1, and can then follow up with dropping a finisher or whatever you really wanted to resolve. The +2/+0 is relevant too, increasing the clock of anything I have coming in. I wouldn't even mind casting this on a mana dork turn 2 and swinging.
Nylea costs 4, and there is already a large number of cards that cost 4 fighting for a spot in this deck. It also doesn't come with a body unless you have devotion going, which is a real drag to tap out 4 for.
DOLZero, do you still testing it!? How many copies and what did you move out from the deck?!
I've been running it as a 1 of, but I want to do some more thorough testing so it will likely be a 2 of. Since I am testing out different win conditions, I have been running them in place of Baneslayer Angel. Over the next few weeks I plan on testing Rancor, Elspeth, Knight Errant and Yeva, Nature's Herald in that slot. I'll likely give a full week of testing each so I can get a thorough opinion on them. I've just been doing a 1 of Rancor and Yeva lately, but I'm going to switch to Elspeth starting today and then I will give the others a try at 2 of.
I'm also tempted to remove 1x Mindcensor just to stick a 1 of Rancor in anyway. It's been good enough that I like having it around.
(I've mostly played WW D&T and am busy building the GW deck - most pieces arriving next week)
In D&T they run 4 Aether Vial plus 3 1-drop (I ran 4 Dryad Militant because it has actual hate for Control and I wanted a faster start).
GW runs 4 Noble Hierarch and 1 to 2 Birds of Paradise in the one-drop position - so 1 to 2 less.
Now my thinking is that perhaps GW could look to including Dryad Militant in some form. With Wilt-Leaf Liege it becomes a 4/3 for 1.
I get that the question becomes - "what's the cut?", and I'm beginning to think it's from the top end of the curve. Thrun's, Baneslayers etc are nice - but are only finishers. Liege turns most of the creatures into finishers (6/6 Smiters, 4/4 Voices, 4/3 Dryad's, 4/4 Pridemages etc).
If I had to look at Caerthose529's decklist - I would think perhaps something like:
-1 Birds, -1 Brimaz, -2 Thrun, -1 Baneslayer
+3 Militant, +2 Liege
Perhaps a question to Caerthose529 - how did you find the extra Bird? Most lists seem to be on the 4+1 design, you went 4+2.
I'll be beginning to play-test all my own ideas soon (Legacy tournaments taking priority at the moment) - but I want to know if anyone has any thoughts on this?
****
PS DOL - ran Worship sideboard in D&T, also on the fence over mainboarding it. I brought it in in so many matches it seemed very worth it. It does again become a question of what to cut, but I never find it irrelevant.
I like dryad in D&T because you're not running any dorks to enable T2 plays like GQ, or options for scooze, qasali, spellskite, smiter. It's not much better than scooze early and definitely worse late against gys, and it isn't exactly anti-aggro against zoo, affinity, merfolk, bogle to name a few.
Wouldn't we like it if liege gave +1/+1 and/or trample. Liege was great when we consistently got to cheat it in with jund running around, otherwise I cannot think of many matchups where I'd like to tap out T3/T4 for it in this meta. I feel it's quite consistently good against zoo and BGx, decent in midrange stalls and against scapeshift, but not great against the other combos, control, or the remaining aggro decks that just don't care.
My current debate is of the following:
I've been considering whether or not I want to run the full 4x Temple Garden, or swapping one out for a second Stirring Wildwood. Currently I feel like my Temple Garden come into play tapped 1/3 of the time anyway, so switching one out for another Wildwood doesn't seem like it will effect my game plan very often.
I also wouldn't mind swapping out either an Aven Mindcensor, or a Scavenging Ooze for a Rancor. I've liked Rancor in the little testing I've done. I never want to see more than one, so running it as a 1 of seems like a fine option. It's just a matter of where to make the room. I haven't switched from the 4x Arbiter 3x Mindcensor plan for a long time. It's always seemed like the right numbers to run. I've recently moved Scooze up to 3 of from 2. It's a great card and very good in the current meta.
The other part has to do with finishers. I've already talked about this somewhat. Baneslayer is a great card against a number of match ups, but I keep wondering if there is something else that could fill that role more efficiently. I'm going to be testing a few cards over the next month in that slot and see if they play any better than Baneslayer.
I've also given some thought to including Gavony Township in my list again. It still seems like a win more kind of card, but it might be worth making room for. I like it, but I don't want to push my colorless lands past 6. I almost always feel like the extra Tectonic Edge gets more value.
Great to see choke doing noticeable work. Won at least two games, from what I can tell!
I've got two questions for you:
1. Which cards were MVPs in matchups or the entire tournament?
2. Which cards felt lackluster?
3. How would you change the deck after this tournament you played?
Lastly, congratulations on the result! 2nd place is nothing to scoff at. Really well done! I think we are all at least a little bit proud of you.
EDIT: Of course, three questions.
I would really like to find a consistent finisher that doesn't cost more than 4cmc. That is a big part of why I am testing out Rancor, among other things. Wilt-Leaf Liege and Thrun, the Last Troll really look like our best options without going to 5 mana. I'm really looking to find the best combination of finishers right now. Maybe Elspeth, Knight-Errant should be in there too.
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Elspeth feels very win-more to me.
I suppose a good question to ask is: When do you need finishers? When is Loxodon Smiter not enough? Hypothetically you could skip playing a finisher, and instead go with like, brave the elements... but, as someone who's forsaken Baneslayer for a while. I've thought about this sometimes. There's not a ton of matchups that I can't finish out with Mirran Crusader or Smiter, or a fat Scooze, but most games it's just swinging with a plethora of 2/2's that make the difference, not 6/6 elephants.
I think the only time I really want finishers is against decks that can turn games around very quickly, and that primarily is: URx and Pod. Twin, and most of the other combo decks don't need as aggressive of a clock (a pair of 2/2's usually does the trick. 4 attack steps is pretty much everything needed). The rest of the decks I'm usually OK with grinding them out with a Worship.
So, what finishers are good vs UWR and Pod? Uh. That's a good question. I don't see them. Creatures with flying don't do it because of the sheer amount of flyers that both decks have... so, I think you have to look at protection or trample as the way to punish the decks. I think Rancor has to be one of the better options. There aren't any white creatures outside of Mirran Crusader with pro-green (it's not very common at all). Oversoul of Dusk has pro-red and pro-blue (and pro-black). But it is pretty much worse than Baneslayer in all regards. Trample is very good vs Pod, but not very good vs UWR. Cards with big backends are good vs UWR. Elspeth is very good vs UWR. Elspeth is not very good vs Pod. And that's the problem that we have, I think. Either you sell out to being good at closing out UWR games, or sell out at being good vs Pod games. I've chosen the latter, because I feel better about grinding out UWR post-board than I do pod most of the time.
Just a curious thought: If baneslayer's really good in the affinity matchup, but fracturing gust is too slow... how does that work? Another positive to fracturing gust over creeping corrosion is: fracturing gust is an instant, which gets blinkmoths, inkmoths, and mothmoths.
Edit: Stirring Wildwood is very good vs UWR.
You also gain the life immediately vs. baneslayer, which is nice.
I've been rethinking Baneslayer in my deck lately (run 2 currently) and one of the main reasons I still have her is the lifegain - just hitting once typically swings it enough to keep me in the game. I'd like to replace them with something that doesn't cost as much and I keep looking at the Mirran Crusader. Comes out quicker, has protection, hits like a truck especialy with 7-8 exalted sources. Maybe with a few of them MD I wouldn't find myself in so many drawn-out matches where I need the lifegain. Could also take the 1-2 Sword of WP/LS for some lifegain on that route too.
I dropped to 3 Voice to be able to fit in other things. I've seen people play 4, but I've never had an issue with 3. He's great against some decks, mediocre against others imo.
Seal of primordium is more resilient than pridemages, being an enchantment. Its nice in that it can sit there from t2 onward and it can impact how the opponent plays as a result. Another option would be Aura of Silence for similar sacrifice effect and tax. Its just an extra piece of enchantment / artifact removal when needed.
Stony is good against affinty. I've had mixed results with tron. It slows them down but doesn't really stop their game plan as much as it would seem, in my experience.
Birds people run as a 1-2 of typically to get a greater probability of being able to play Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter on turn 2. That play can be devastating against many decks and can turn an opponents so-so hand in to garbage pretty quickly.
Baneslayer seems to mostly be in a quantity of 1-2 if people play them. I like having her around for breaking up parity on a board state. Lifegain/flying and large body all relevant. If you're going to include 5cmc in your curve (not everyone does) then Baneslayer or Batterskull are probably two of the better choices, each with their various pros and cons.
If you care, here's what I'm currently testing out.
Combo Decks. Increase of Path usage.
I agree, but mostly it's unboltable.
I can't disagree with its effectiveness vs Tron, but vs Affinity is where I think we draw the most criticism towards it. The problem with it is that Affinity needs more reactive control elements. What does Affinity fear? Reactive Board Wipes and Spot Removal. I can't really tell the amount of times vs Affinity that Stony Silence hasn't gotten there. Like, on the play, you expect it to be very good because you can lock them after 1 mana, but on the draw, they've often emptied their hand on T2. Your proactive hatebears (including Stony Silence) are just not nearly as effective vs Affinity.
Look at the manabases, look at the quantity of 3 drops. I think they go hand in hand. You need #1) Explosiveness and #2) Consistency, and Birds help with both of those, IMO. I used to not run birds, when I was running 4 vials, but as I've reduced the # of Vials I've played, I've increased the number of Birds because you're allowed the *almost* maximum amount of opportunities to go, on the play, t1, birds, t2 arbiter ghost quarter/strip mine, go. I could probably dig up the percentages, but without birds, you get that opportunity, 6.5% of the time, 2 birds adds another 3.5% chance that you will have all 3 in your hand on the play. What's worse? Drawing a land, or drawing a bird? The deck, without dorks or vials, should probably play 26 lands with baneslayer if you want to reasonably cast it whatsoever at all. The other thing is: We're vulnerable to Blood Moon. Dorks help alleviate that.
That's pretty much what we've been discussing the past few days. I've not been on the baneslayer train since about a week after GP Brisbane where I took Richard Likht's list and gave it a run (I was baneslayer-less before and after). I feel similarly about Baneslayer, and that Worship effectively replaces Baneslayer because the lifegain aspect of Baneslayer isn't important when you're playing Worship. The body is though. I think you're underestimating/not evaluating the power of Worship though. I think a lot more of it makes sense when you just realize you can't really lose with it some times.
Seal of Primordium is good because you get to drop it and forget about it until you need it, it is also harder to remove. I don't run it in my 75, but it's very versatile.
Stony Silence is great, some people don't run it because it conflicts a bit with vials, swords, EE. Since we have access to creeping corrosion and fracturing gusts for affinity, it isn't a must have.
I've flipped between 0-2 bop, and it should differ from list to list. Bop, helps us drop T2 smiters, swords, mindcensors more consistently and gives a us a little more option with EE. Scooze can get pretty mana intensive, and sometimes you want to have extra mana up for qasali, removal, arbiter and gavony activations.
I like to have at least 1 baneslayer because without them we simply have no game against "real" midrange decks. Most of the lists are loaded with 2 drop bears that cannot finish games quick or provide much utility against creature-centric decks outside of land destruction. imo thats why we struggle against soul sister (lifegain is the big issue), merfolk, tokens, BG/junk with obliterators/kotr , and big zoo; I can see Wilt-leaf's anthem helping here, but evasion is often overlooked.
I think rancor is the best replacement for a finisher, it gives the trample damage, recursion, but no lifegain. Brimaz has been underwhelming for me and I haven't found much use for crusader outside of pod/BGx. Another issue with crusader is, you need to have a few exalted sources (which have no protection) or else you're easily losing the race.
@ToonBoon, I've been trying a 1-of Elspeth and I don't feel it's a win more. It helps on defense by providing chump blockers, can transition to provide large evasive beaters and leave you with a board after wraths.
I'll give Elspeth a whirl. I think it'd probably be the best 1 for 1 swap with SoWaP...
Maybe it's just me though, but I think I have to be playing the deck differently, conceptually, from most. Against Midrange decks, we're the control deck. We're actually more often than not, the control deck. We're not putting pressure on until we're winning unless we're playing a real control deck, and then we have to be the aggro deck. It's like with Big Zoo. Basically you're looking to hurt their manabase to keep them off of playing Hellkite. KoTR isn't that scary most of the time with Scavenging Ooze & Arbiter, and then you're running them out of viable threats. When you establish control, our top decks are usually more relevant than most midrange top decks because you slowly establish a bigger board presence and just punch through slowly.
The deck really just transitions really well from aggro to control. More often than not, our aggro potential is completely dwarfed by real aggro decks (Merfolk, Boggles & Zoo), but against control and combo, there's some times we can just sneak under on the play and do chunks of 6 damage at a time. And the beautiful part is that those kind of games usually set up nicely if you can't finish them out to transition into a longer midrangey game.
Answers:
1. Smiter was great throughout the day, played against decks with blue and bolt all throughout the day and it was excellent. Arbiter while not great as a beater and not good against some of the matchups was almost always valid due to ghost quarter/path and people tapping out quite a lot in modern. Especially against blue after choke is boarded in, you blow up their non island blue sources even without an arbiter, there is just so much synergy with the deck that it makes it pretty amazing. I also was never sorry to draw scavenging ooze because a lot of match ups are races and the ooze tilts the race quite a bit. To be honest I liked every card in my list with the exception of probably Brimaz and not having worships. You just have catch alls throughout your deck for a format that is largely combo driven which is an amazing feeling.
2. Brimaz, just doesn't do enough. Will replace with the worship I wanted in the main. Stony Silence is supposed to be a worship also, one main, one board.
3. The same list you have seen, take out Brimaz, replace with worship, sideboard take out stony silence, replace with worship, take out sovereign and replace with damping matrix. I didn't play against blue moon, but I still like seal for decks packing blood moon to go with the pridemages. Against affinity I got pretty wrecked, but the guy did draw pretty well especially given the fact that he mulligan'd both games. Either of those if I had a worship or in game 1 an earlier removal spell I would have been fine, or in game 2 a chalice in my opening hand.
Against Big zoo, if you're keeping them off 5 mana with LD, those Kotr are going to be an issue, yes scooze helps, but if you're going after their lands in the gy, your scooze won't be punching through much, notably 3/3 nacatls, goyfs, other smiters and scoozes. Big zoo is also running their own mana dorks, a couple basics, and around 12 pieces of removal for arbiter which is definitely trouble for lists without tect edges. In any case, the real hero in these kinds of games are the worships, which is the strongest reason why Baneslayer isn't "necessary" and we eventually get there with flyers or a big exalted creature.
Baneslayer is really good too. The problem I have though is that some decks really don't care about her. She is great against anything not combo, but as soon as I am up against a combo deck she becomes almost as bad as a dead card. Melira Pod is the only combo that I feel comfortable casting her against, and even then it's only when the board state is at a point where it's unlikely they can combo out. But against the decks where she is good, she is really really good.
We don't have a lot of options for Trample outside of Rancor and maybe something like Overwhelming Stampede or Garruk Wildspeaker. I'm inclined to not play Stampede or Garruk, so let's look at Rancor. Rancor has been good when I've played it. I've won games with it. I've also lost games with it. In both situations Rancor did a lot of work. It's never been OMG amazing, but it has always been good and never been bad. I'm still not sure if it makes a big enough impact though, and if it doesn't then I don't think it's worth the slot.
Color protection leads me to two options. Mirran Crusader is one, although I've found it to be underwhelming in the current meta. It's not bad, but it's definitely not as good as it was when BGx was 25% of the field. Swords are the other option. Sword of War and Peace and Sword of Feast and Famine both could see play here. I like F&F a little more because of the untap trigger. I won't mind tapping out to play and equip if I can untap my lands. The discard is nice too since it can restrict their options. W&P is more for the color protection, and to get past those pesky Tokens. I've also been considering Spirit Mantle lately.
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I've also come to a general decision on how to play Thrun and Linvala in the deck. I'm going with a 2 of each, with a 2/1 split maindeck and a singleton in the board. Both are good against various match ups. If I expect to see more control, I will go for 2 Thrun maindeck. If I expect to see more combo, I will go with 2 Linvala maindeck. I like having 2 of each in my 75, but I don't want to load them all up in the main deck. This seems like the right way to go about it.
I still haven't come to a conclusion on maindeck Worship yet. At this point I feel like I am getting tight on slots, but I still have some flexibility in my sideboard, so that is probably where it's going to stay for the time being.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
(I've mostly played WW D&T and am busy building the GW deck - most pieces arriving next week)
In D&T they run 4 Aether Vial plus 3 1-drop (I ran 4 Dryad Militant because it has actual hate for Control and I wanted a faster start).
GW runs 4 Noble Hierarch and 1 to 2 Birds of Paradise in the one-drop position - so 1 to 2 less.
Now my thinking is that perhaps GW could look to including Dryad Militant in some form. With Wilt-Leaf Liege it becomes a 4/3 for 1.
I get that the question becomes - "what's the cut?", and I'm beginning to think it's from the top end of the curve. Thrun's, Baneslayers etc are nice - but are only finishers. Liege turns most of the creatures into finishers (6/6 Smiters, 4/4 Voices, 4/3 Dryad's, 4/4 Pridemages etc).
If I had to look at Caerthose529's decklist - I would think perhaps something like:
-1 Birds, -1 Brimaz, -2 Thrun, -1 Baneslayer
+3 Militant, +2 Liege
Perhaps a question to Caerthose529 - how did you find the extra Bird? Most lists seem to be on the 4+1 design, you went 4+2.
I'll be beginning to play-test all my own ideas soon (Legacy tournaments taking priority at the moment) - but I want to know if anyone has any thoughts on this?
****
PS DOL - ran Worship sideboard in D&T, also on the fence over mainboarding it. I brought it in in so many matches it seemed very worth it. It does again become a question of what to cut, but I never find it irrelevant.
Voice of Resurgence is a good card, but you rarely need more than one on the field. 3 is a good number to have it regularly, while still providing an extra (precious) card slot for something else.
Seal is played by some mostly for an extra out to Blue Moon decks. It's not for everybody though. I don't play it.
Stony Silence is a good card for both Affinity and Tron. I run it as a 2 of in my sideboard.
Birds are there as Noble Hierarch 5-7. It's not necessary, but this deck wants a mana dork on turn 1. Having 5+ helps increase the chances of that happening.
Baneslayer is solid against a lot of match ups, with only really being dead against combo. There has been talk of what to do with this slot lately. We've got options, but finding the best combination of them is proving to be a challenge.
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DOLZero, do you still testing it!? How many copies and what did you move out from the deck?!
Btw, results with Rancor in the deck?!
Cheers
I've always viewed and played this deck as a G/W prison deck where the prison components turn sideways. The only time I ever actually try to race is - like you said - against a "real" control deck. Aside from those matches its all about locking the opponent down first and then worrying about killing them and this deck does that in spades. The creatures chosen for this archetype just can't keep up in pure p/t value to decks like zoo, merfolk, etc because we trade that raw power for forcing subtle (Voice) and not so subtle (thalia) changes to the other side of the board instead of just clearing a path for the most efficient 1-3 drops in the game.
Due to this, I look at a "finisher" as a handful of cards chosen more for their overall efficiency than adding disruption. Crusader, Baneslayer, Batterskull, WLL all certainly qualify as such. I'm in the middle of going through all the potential 4-drops and so far the only other thing I've seen is Hero of Bladehold but I dont think I would choose that over one of the previous options for this build. I like their built in evasion / disruption / protections more than pumping out dudes.
I've been running it as a 1 of, but I want to do some more thorough testing so it will likely be a 2 of. Since I am testing out different win conditions, I have been running them in place of Baneslayer Angel. Over the next few weeks I plan on testing Rancor, Elspeth, Knight Errant and Yeva, Nature's Herald in that slot. I'll likely give a full week of testing each so I can get a thorough opinion on them. I've just been doing a 1 of Rancor and Yeva lately, but I'm going to switch to Elspeth starting today and then I will give the others a try at 2 of.
I'm also tempted to remove 1x Mindcensor just to stick a 1 of Rancor in anyway. It's been good enough that I like having it around.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I like dryad in D&T because you're not running any dorks to enable T2 plays like GQ, or options for scooze, qasali, spellskite, smiter. It's not much better than scooze early and definitely worse late against gys, and it isn't exactly anti-aggro against zoo, affinity, merfolk, bogle to name a few.
Wouldn't we like it if liege gave +1/+1 and/or trample. Liege was great when we consistently got to cheat it in with jund running around, otherwise I cannot think of many matchups where I'd like to tap out T3/T4 for it in this meta. I feel it's quite consistently good against zoo and BGx, decent in midrange stalls and against scapeshift, but not great against the other combos, control, or the remaining aggro decks that just don't care.
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Path to Exile
Land: 23
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Plains
3 Forest
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Spellskite
3 Torpor Orb
2 Stony Silence
1 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kitchen Finks
My current debate is of the following:
I've been considering whether or not I want to run the full 4x Temple Garden, or swapping one out for a second Stirring Wildwood. Currently I feel like my Temple Garden come into play tapped 1/3 of the time anyway, so switching one out for another Wildwood doesn't seem like it will effect my game plan very often.
I also wouldn't mind swapping out either an Aven Mindcensor, or a Scavenging Ooze for a Rancor. I've liked Rancor in the little testing I've done. I never want to see more than one, so running it as a 1 of seems like a fine option. It's just a matter of where to make the room. I haven't switched from the 4x Arbiter 3x Mindcensor plan for a long time. It's always seemed like the right numbers to run. I've recently moved Scooze up to 3 of from 2. It's a great card and very good in the current meta.
The other part has to do with finishers. I've already talked about this somewhat. Baneslayer is a great card against a number of match ups, but I keep wondering if there is something else that could fill that role more efficiently. I'm going to be testing a few cards over the next month in that slot and see if they play any better than Baneslayer.
I've also given some thought to including Gavony Township in my list again. It still seems like a win more kind of card, but it might be worth making room for. I like it, but I don't want to push my colorless lands past 6. I almost always feel like the extra Tectonic Edge gets more value.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF