Any other options? I'm looking for good ideas for 1-2 SB slots that can fight Zoo and these BG decks. The card cannot interact unfavorably with Chalice of the Void in the Zoo matches, so 2-drops and up.
not technically removal but ghostly prison? slows the bleeding if nothing else.
I originally had a pro blue sword to help against merfolk, but thassa/spreading sea makes for easy evasion. I used FaI, hoping to have it be removal as well, but lords put their creatures out of reach quick; also bad against zoo, great for mirror-ish builds and pod. The additional win con from BaM is interesting, but doesn't soul sisters just chump for days? It's a horrible matchup unless I get multiple explosives/torpor orb/ crusader with a sword.
Usually it's paired with a flyer, they only have 4 flying creatures (ish) for the mono-white (which is significantly better) or 0 in the r/w.
Mirran crusaders are great for pod too, I just cringe every time it gets bolted so you might want them out of the sb or as a 1/2 of. I have a SoLaS in the side for tokens/soul sisters, that isn't horrible for BGx where FaF should also be serviceable, although abrupt decay does put a frowny face on things. I'm down to a singleton baneslayer, but it wins these midrange stalls easy.
you just have to stagger how you play threats... count the bolts (and/or helixes), and then go from there. it's your turn 4-5-6 play, just so you clear their hand of good kill spells and then bring on the heat. i think playing 3 works well if you play around bolt more aggressively.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
I see, watch out for squadron hawks though, they're seeing a bit of a come back. So I'm guessing BaM is about a 4/5 turn clock, which is a lot more reasonable considering the other option is dropping more creatures/draw explosives.
I think most of my problem with crusaders happens against zoo. Here none of the 2 drops are any threat to block and likely won't be eating bolt/helix, and smiter being large doesn't see a bolt/helix until after it blocks, so unless the zoo player feels secure enough to burn me (which means crusader might not be enough), they've probably got something for it. Otherwise, UWr anything or twin is probably looking to remove my hatebears instead and crusader is a little safer.
First off, we are still well favored against Twin. This time I did a full 20 game set against RUG Twin. This is the deck from the Pro Tour that ran Tarmogoyf along with the UR Twin shell. The deck is solid, but still folds to our massive amounts of hate. Tarmogoyf helped Twin win a couple of games, but our win rate against this deck is still very high. This is one of our best match ups!
Pre board, GW went 5-3. In one of those losses, a Bolt > Snap > Bolt line was used to knock out my Linvala and combo off. In another loss both decks were in a top deck war. Twin needed a fifth land in order to cast Splinter Twin with Thalia out, and drew it just before GW would have won.
RUG Twin brought in its singleton Sword of Feast and Famine, Batterskull, a Combust, a Nature's Claim, and 2 copies of Anger of The Gods, cutting 2 Gitaxian Probes and all of the Remands.
After boarding GW continues to win. GW won 9 out of 12 games in this set! 75% is about where I have found Twin to be after boarding no matter whether it runs Tarmogoyf, Restoration Angel, or just more UR cards.
***
Next up was a half set against Naya Zoo. This is the "fast" Zoo variant. This time I just did post board games, and put this match in a "game 3" situation where Zoo knew I had brought in Worships for game 2 and decided to board in Qasali Pridemages to stop my hate.
The Qasali Pridemage plan from Zoo helped it win one of its games, but GW still took it home in most of the others. GW won 7 out of 10 games in this match.
If I run something other than Baloth, and it isn't a card I want for Zoo, then leave the Qasali in the deck.
***
Last but not least, I played a post board set against the Big Zoo variant. This is the deck Shahar Shenhar played at the Pro Tour, with Knight of The Reliquary, Domri Rade, and other big spells.
Unlike the faster version of Zoo, this deck goes over top of our hate and ends up being really rough for us! GW won only 2 out of 10 games vs. this deck after boarding.
In a lot of these games, the Zoo deck drew its singleton Elspeth and destroyed me with it. This Zoo list builds a board that I can't punch through, then jumps a massive Knight or Smiter over my ground team to hit me for major damage.
***
So what goes into that flex sideboard slot? This is the SB right now:
Obstinate Baloth (tested tonight... It was great against Fast Zoo, didn't draw it often enough to tell with Big Zoo)
Baneslayer Angel (5 mana, but a game changer)
Sword of Feast and Famine (should force an answer from the BG Rock deck, breaks Pod stalemates, and also can go in against control decks)
2nd Rest In Peace (good against a number of combo decks, but also a big deal against BG Rock and Big Zoo, making their Goyfs, Knights, and Oozes weak)
3rd Engineered Explosives (good against Fast Zoo, Affinity, and Tokens, but only OK against Big Zoo and probably stopped by Stony Silence vs. Bogle)
Here's our rough matches from what I've found during testing: Merfolk, Tokens, RG Tron, BG Rock, & Big Zoo
In addition, these matches are rough in game 1s, but not necessarily after board: Bogle, Tin Fins, Affinity
What do you guys think?
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I think if BGx and big zoo are going to be popular you might want the 24 lands, 5+ dorks to get you to baneslayer and maybe a few crusaders and live with not drawing/having the appropriate hate against combo/twin etc in the form of qasali, thalia, voice. Otherwise, go without a strong plan against midrange/slower aggro and hope combo takes care of them?
I personally don't find RG tron too unreasonable. What happens is either we steamroll them or they steamroll us which depends a lot on who's winning the die toss.
What do you guys think about 1~2 Phyrexian Revoker at main deck, i mean atm in modern decks, it might stop POD and maybe slow down a little bit some fishes or something else.
What do you guys think about 1~2 Phyrexian Revoker at main deck, i mean atm in modern decks, it might stop POD and maybe slow down a little bit some fishes or something else.
Is it solid or a null slot?
Played it. They're not bad as an alternative to Linvala if you're subject to more non-twin hate. Against twin, they'll electrolyze it all day, but, against pod and the field, I feel that Revoker is a solid choice too.
Totally agree with VitaminJ's analysis of both BGx and Big Zoo. I've been saying it for a while that the deck needs to play more land sources to be more consistent with bolt being a bigger part of the format than it was 6 weeks ago.
I think most of my problem with crusaders happens against zoo. Here none of the 2 drops are any threat to block and likely won't be eating bolt/helix, and smiter being large doesn't see a bolt/helix until after it blocks, so unless the zoo player feels secure enough to burn me (which means crusader might not be enough), they've probably got something for it. Otherwise, UWr anything or twin is probably looking to remove my hatebears instead and crusader is a little safer.
if they use it on crusader, they can't use it on smiter. and if they use it on smiter, they can't use it on your face. and in the latter case, you're still going to trade with it. if they do bolt it.
basically, they bolt your crusader, they need to then have a second bolt, helix or path for your smiter. it's also generally better vs the smallest fastest ones that love to just throw out a billion burning tree emissaries.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
@HorseshoeCrab can you comment on chalice? I'm still not sold on it. On the play, zoo can drop 3 one-drops before we can even get chalice down on 1. Do you play it for 0 vs affinity? It seems to interact unfavourably with our own paths/mana dorks as well. I often times find a late-game hierarch to be an excellent draw against a lot of decks for the exalted trigger.
If zoo is a thing again, its not that big here, could we find a spot for some number of kitchen finks in the deck?
I run 2-3 in the board. They also help against Burn, and can sometimes push you out of Grapeshot and Scapeshift range.
Dol can attest to zoo's speed... Its not as easy as it sounds on paper. We played 6 games, (Dol is such a good player. I love testing with that guy.) and while all of them were pretty swingy, esspeically our last game, Zoo kept aggression on, even when top decking.
The two games I lost were due to Land deaths by Dol. I couldn't get out from under it. Then there were 2 games I just went faster than him. One with with later beaters (tarmos and knights) and I'm pretty sure Dol had the EExplosives that game, just couldnt clear my board effectivly, and my weenies already bit in enough for me. The other game he had a EE go boom on me turn 3... but since I was on the play and I had out three 3/3s that bit him already, it was a losing battle even with the board wipe.
There was a game I won due to color screw on Dols end, and me having removal on removal. Not worth going into, just one of them poopsack games.
The last game was by far the most enjoyable because it was long, and super interactive. I managaged to get my colors and keep them, not an easy task mind you, and it came down to top decks.
Worship is like an "oops I win." button (Or I should say oops I cant lose button) unless that version of zoo had the enchantment hate/pyro in hand. I should note that piece of tech isn't a secret, pretty well known to zoo players. You guys have swords sometimes, skite, and that, so of coure we side in our enchant/arti hate. You cant count on that to carry you. It can make the game go hard in your favor, but it can also be tap out death if we have the answer. Id say the reward out weights the risk though.
Just chiming in so you guys don't think the zoo is really heavily in your favor. With 4 paths, 4 ghorclan (its a staple in our deck at this point) and access to some good midrange hate in our side, the matchup stays around 50-50 pre and post side, unless you over hate us in the main and side (finks, thrun, swords of light, worship, EE, and maybe even a few more.)
If any of you want to head over to the zoo thread I have the videos posted up. Might be a good watch for you. Feel free to ask questions there as well.
Thanks for recording the games and letting me play test against you. I will also have the videos up soon. The match up is definitely pretty even against Small Zoo, and really comes down to who draws better than the other player. Big Zoo seems slightly more favorable.
And that triple Wild Nacatl draw is dangerous. I barely held on thanks to EE, but still couldn't keep up in that game.
Thanks for recording the games and letting me play test against you. I will also have the videos up soon. The match up is definitely pretty even against Small Zoo, and really comes down to who draws better than the other player. Big Zoo seems slightly more favorable.
And that triple Wild Nacatle draw is dangerous. I barely held on thanks to EE, but still couldn't keep up in that game.
My videos up now. just a small delay, sorry.
Yeah, but its a fairly consistent thing for us. maybe 1/2 points less damage. But even E1>ape>lion, on the play gives us 3+2+2+3=8 damage. With nacatls it can go up around 8-10 damage, e1 being more dangerous in that case because it regens into open mana for more evolving.
EE is a good card, no doubt, but can be played around/through
I cant wait to see your end. Kinda funny to get both our views on the match.
@HorseshoeCrab can you comment on chalice? I'm still not sold on it. On the play, zoo can drop 3 one-drops before we can even get chalice down on 1. Do you play it for 0 vs affinity? It seems to interact unfavourably with our own paths/mana dorks as well. I often times find a late-game hierarch to be an excellent draw against a lot of decks for the exalted trigger.
If you are on the play against Zoo, you Chalice for 1 on turn 2 and Zoo only has one 1-drop out at most. If you are on the draw they can have as many as 3 1-drops by their turn 2, so you hope to have EE instead in that situation.
Just keep in mind that Chalice is better on the play, and EE is better on the draw, and mulligan accordingly.
Against Affinity on the play, Chalice for 0 shuts off their fastest starts. On the draw, you still Chalice for 0 most of the time to shut off later 0-drop draws. If you draw Chalice late you try to drop it for 2 or 3 to shut off Affinity's most important cards.
But those two matches are not the only places where Chalice matters. I'll briefly recap where I use it.
UWR - Set for 1 to stop Bolt & Path
Delver - Set at 1 to shut off a large chunk of the deck, including cantrips, Bolt...
Blue Moon - Set at 1 and shut off Serum Visions, Bolt, Spell Snare, etc.
Bogle - Set at 1 and shut off most of the deck
Burn - Set at 1
Living End - Set at 0 and shut off the card Living End
Infect - Set at 1 and shut off most pump spells and cheap Infect creatures
Storm - Set at 2 and shut off the key half of the deck, or set at 1 and shut off the other half of the deck
8-Rack - Set at 1 and shut off most of the deck
Amulet - Set at 0 to stop Pacts from being cast, or set at 1 if they didn't play an Amulet on turn 1 to stop Amulet itself
Tin Fins - Set at 2 to stop Goryo's. Could also set at 1 when on the draw to stop Faithless and cantrips
Soul Sisters - Set at 1
Ad Nauseum Combo - Set at 0 to shut off Lotus, or at 1 to stop cantrips and Angel's Grace
Most of the format operates on 1 or 2 mana. Chalice punishes those decks that concentrate all of their spells at those costs. It is VERY powerful right now in Modern, but few decks can play it because of their 1-drops. We don't have as many 1-drops, and none of them are critical to our success, so we get to run this amazing hoser for half the format while the rest of the format has to play fair. This card is one of the main reasons why I'm choosing this deck for the Grand Prix.
***
Any ideas on the 1 or two floating SB slots? I really want something, but its also temping to just run 2 Rest In Peace and say "done."
About GB, here's what I think about the options:
Baneslayer Angel - It flies, has lifelink, and is large enough to answer most of GB's creatures. Dies to Maelstrom Pulse. Batterskull - It is a Baneslayer Angel of sorts that can be moved around to another creature or bounced back to hand if necessary. Very powerful card, but may be too slow for us. Gideon Jura - UWR control uses this to answer a horde of creatures, why not us? This can break a board stall immediately by forcing the opponent to attack and giving us an opportunity to strike back. Plus this seems like a sick play against smaller aggro decks in the late game. Obstinate Baloth - Discard clause, but body isn't enough to answer a creature, vulnerable to Pulse, and no protection. This tested well vs. Small Zoo. Auriok Champion - Pro black, but very tiny and will get run over by even an un-pumped Scavenging Ooze. Mirran Crusader - Pro black and green, so will block and be able to punch through a BG board. Can't die to BG's removal. One of our better options, but not maindeck as long as Lightning Bolt is widely played. Rest In Peace - Makes Goyfs 0/1s & Oozes unable to grow. Dies to Abrupt Decay. Has uses beyond BG decks. I'm current;y running this. Sword of Feast and Famine - Makes one of our creatures a Mirran Crusader. Dies to Abrupt Decay and Pulse. Has applications against control decks, Costs "5" for first equip. Sword of Light and Shadow - Makes one of our creatures immune from Abrupt and Pulse. Dies to Abrupt Decay and Pulse. Can be used against control decks and aggro decks due to life gain and raise dead ability.
What about Mystic Enforcer? It is a four drop that can't die to Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, can attack past Bitterblossom, and can have great stats once Threshold is reached? A 6/6 for 4 isn't a bad rate, and having Pro Black means this card can fly over BG without being touched by removal. The big thing is that this will not answer any of the Green creatures, and it dies to Bolt. Is it better than our other options? IDK. Its at least worth a mention.
I feel like each option has a match up where it will be great, and its up to us to find out which match up we need to use the slot for. I can run any of these, but at the expense of another match up becoming slightly worse. What's the call here?
While I'm thinking of cards and am still awake, Aura Of Silence may be worth considering. It would make Affinity's spells cost 2 more, severely slow down some parts of Blue Moon, and still act as a Seal Of Primordium. The trade off is that it costs 3, so it might be a turn behind when Blood Moon hits. Also being WW may make that card hard to cast in some situations.
Searching Gatherer for everything Green or White between 4 and 5 CMC...
Chameleon Colossus - Its a 4/4 with pro black that can get much bigger through pumps. Loxodon Hierarch - This is a Obstinate Baloth that can regenerate our team. No discard clause however. Mirrorweave - An interesting way to turn the tables on the Phyrexian Obliterator player by making our entire team Obliterators for a turn! Patrician's Scorn - Can be used as a "free" Back to Nature in many situations. Restoration Angel - Could be good in a list that also runs Kitchen Finks or Blade Slicer instead of Loxodon Smiter. Retaliate - Really expensive way to deal with creatures that attack us that we can't deal with. Reveilark - Could stall the board and then bring back some of our hate bears. Good value creature. Reverence - Stops Twin creatures from attacking, and prevents death via Tokens until they get two pumps. Sigarda, Host of Herons - Extremely hard to kill if it resolves. Springjack Shepherd - This can make a bunch of chump blockers if we are stuck in a grindy creature match. Thragtusk - For 5 mana we can gain 5 life immediately, and have two bodies. Pretty good value here. Timbermare - This would break a stalemate long enough for us to win? Wall of Reverence - We can gain a lot of life with this, and hold off large creatures at the same time.
Here is the full list of cards I was looking at. I may have to add a few more in here, but it's already taking so long to analyze the viability of every card in every match up.
Some of these aren't the greatest choices, and are things that I just wanted to look at as options. Some of them aren't going to make it onto the final list, as they are only good against 1-2 decks, or only fit well into certain builds. Fauna Shaman for example is really only good in a toolbox deck to fetch out silver bullet answers, and doesn't really play well with Arbiter.
If the discard clause is so important - why not Wilt-Leaf Liege - turn your team into finishers.
PS: could you perhaps spoiler your decklist at the bottom of each post - it just makes it easier to check what you have in already.
Personally I don't find the discard clause important, but I know others value having that extra protection against Liliana OTV.
My list isn't changing much at this point. I'm really down to hemming and hawwing over one or two cards in the sideboard, and I have a feeling when its all said and done that I'll just have to go with my gut on that choice:
I find Wilt-Leaf Liege, like Mirran Crusader, got much worse after the changes in the banned list. Before the change, BGx was literally 25% of the field, making both cards great in a large portion of match ups. Post ban, those decks only make up about 7% of the meta. I've completely removed Crusader from my list, and while Liege's function as a hatebear has become much less relevant, I still find the anthem effect good enough for him to still be a solid finisher. Despite that, I am looking at replacing him with Thrun since Control decks seem to be making big moves in the meta. 4x Loxodon Smiter and 2x Thrun, the Last Troll seem really good with their can't be countered clause. Thrun also makes Worship coming out of the board a lot better, and we still have Smiter to hate on Liliana.
I've also been considering more flash creatures, which are not only good vs Control, but also get much better vs Combo. Yeva, Nature's Herold and Restoration Angel are at the top of my list of cards to play test for this reason. The real challenge is finding the right mix of finishers that are effective in the meta, while still having the ability to close out games quickly. While I like Restoration Angel, it's 3 power doesn't exactly put on the fastest clock.
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not technically removal but ghostly prison? slows the bleeding if nothing else.
Usually it's paired with a flyer, they only have 4 flying creatures (ish) for the mono-white (which is significantly better) or 0 in the r/w.
you just have to stagger how you play threats... count the bolts (and/or helixes), and then go from there. it's your turn 4-5-6 play, just so you clear their hand of good kill spells and then bring on the heat. i think playing 3 works well if you play around bolt more aggressively.
I think most of my problem with crusaders happens against zoo. Here none of the 2 drops are any threat to block and likely won't be eating bolt/helix, and smiter being large doesn't see a bolt/helix until after it blocks, so unless the zoo player feels secure enough to burn me (which means crusader might not be enough), they've probably got something for it. Otherwise, UWr anything or twin is probably looking to remove my hatebears instead and crusader is a little safer.
First off, we are still well favored against Twin. This time I did a full 20 game set against RUG Twin. This is the deck from the Pro Tour that ran Tarmogoyf along with the UR Twin shell. The deck is solid, but still folds to our massive amounts of hate. Tarmogoyf helped Twin win a couple of games, but our win rate against this deck is still very high. This is one of our best match ups!
Pre board, GW went 5-3. In one of those losses, a Bolt > Snap > Bolt line was used to knock out my Linvala and combo off. In another loss both decks were in a top deck war. Twin needed a fifth land in order to cast Splinter Twin with Thalia out, and drew it just before GW would have won.
Boarding went as follows:
IN: 2 Choke, 2 Seal of Primordium, 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Worship
OUT: 2 Thalia, 2 Aven Mindcensor, 2 Thrun, 1 Smiter
RUG Twin brought in its singleton Sword of Feast and Famine, Batterskull, a Combust, a Nature's Claim, and 2 copies of Anger of The Gods, cutting 2 Gitaxian Probes and all of the Remands.
After boarding GW continues to win. GW won 9 out of 12 games in this set! 75% is about where I have found Twin to be after boarding no matter whether it runs Tarmogoyf, Restoration Angel, or just more UR cards.
***
Next up was a half set against Naya Zoo. This is the "fast" Zoo variant. This time I just did post board games, and put this match in a "game 3" situation where Zoo knew I had brought in Worships for game 2 and decided to board in Qasali Pridemages to stop my hate.
The Qasali Pridemage plan from Zoo helped it win one of its games, but GW still took it home in most of the others. GW won 7 out of 10 games in this match.
Boarding against Fast Zoo with my current list:
IN: 2 Worship, 2 Engineered Explosives, 3 Chalice of The Void, 1 Obstinate Baloth
OUT: 1 Qasali, 2 Aven, 2 Thalia, 2 Linvala, 1 Dismember
If I run something other than Baloth, and it isn't a card I want for Zoo, then leave the Qasali in the deck.
***
Last but not least, I played a post board set against the Big Zoo variant. This is the deck Shahar Shenhar played at the Pro Tour, with Knight of The Reliquary, Domri Rade, and other big spells.
Unlike the faster version of Zoo, this deck goes over top of our hate and ends up being really rough for us! GW won only 2 out of 10 games vs. this deck after boarding.
IN: 2 Worship, 2 EE, 1 Rest In Peace, 1 Baloth
OUT: 1 Qasali, 2 Aven, 2 Linvala, 1 Dismember
In a lot of these games, the Zoo deck drew its singleton Elspeth and destroyed me with it. This Zoo list builds a board that I can't punch through, then jumps a massive Knight or Smiter over my ground team to hit me for major damage.
***
So what goes into that flex sideboard slot? This is the SB right now:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Torpor Orb
1 unknown
2 Choke
1 Rest In Peace
2 Seal Of Primordium
2 Worship
I have a few ideas for that slot:
Obstinate Baloth (tested tonight... It was great against Fast Zoo, didn't draw it often enough to tell with Big Zoo)
Baneslayer Angel (5 mana, but a game changer)
Sword of Feast and Famine (should force an answer from the BG Rock deck, breaks Pod stalemates, and also can go in against control decks)
2nd Rest In Peace (good against a number of combo decks, but also a big deal against BG Rock and Big Zoo, making their Goyfs, Knights, and Oozes weak)
3rd Engineered Explosives (good against Fast Zoo, Affinity, and Tokens, but only OK against Big Zoo and probably stopped by Stony Silence vs. Bogle)
Here's our rough matches from what I've found during testing: Merfolk, Tokens, RG Tron, BG Rock, & Big Zoo
In addition, these matches are rough in game 1s, but not necessarily after board: Bogle, Tin Fins, Affinity
What do you guys think?
~ Brian DeMars
I personally don't find RG tron too unreasonable. What happens is either we steamroll them or they steamroll us which depends a lot on who's winning the die toss.
Is it solid or a null slot?
Played it. They're not bad as an alternative to Linvala if you're subject to more non-twin hate. Against twin, they'll electrolyze it all day, but, against pod and the field, I feel that Revoker is a solid choice too.
Totally agree with VitaminJ's analysis of both BGx and Big Zoo. I've been saying it for a while that the deck needs to play more land sources to be more consistent with bolt being a bigger part of the format than it was 6 weeks ago.
Look here.
Lightning Bolt
46.7 % 3.8
Snapcaster Mage
32.5 % 3.4
Electrolyze
19.1 % 2.5
http://mtgtop8.com/topcards?format=MO&meta=51
45% of the decks play pretty much 4 bolts.
About 6 weeks ago that number was around 38%.
if they use it on crusader, they can't use it on smiter. and if they use it on smiter, they can't use it on your face. and in the latter case, you're still going to trade with it. if they do bolt it.
basically, they bolt your crusader, they need to then have a second bolt, helix or path for your smiter. it's also generally better vs the smallest fastest ones that love to just throw out a billion burning tree emissaries.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I run 2-3 in the board. They also help against Burn, and can sometimes push you out of Grapeshot and Scapeshift range.
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Dol can attest to zoo's speed... Its not as easy as it sounds on paper. We played 6 games, (Dol is such a good player. I love testing with that guy.) and while all of them were pretty swingy, esspeically our last game, Zoo kept aggression on, even when top decking.
The two games I lost were due to Land deaths by Dol. I couldn't get out from under it. Then there were 2 games I just went faster than him. One with with later beaters (tarmos and knights) and I'm pretty sure Dol had the EExplosives that game, just couldnt clear my board effectivly, and my weenies already bit in enough for me. The other game he had a EE go boom on me turn 3... but since I was on the play and I had out three 3/3s that bit him already, it was a losing battle even with the board wipe.
There was a game I won due to color screw on Dols end, and me having removal on removal. Not worth going into, just one of them poopsack games.
The last game was by far the most enjoyable because it was long, and super interactive. I managaged to get my colors and keep them, not an easy task mind you, and it came down to top decks.
Worship is like an "oops I win." button (Or I should say oops I cant lose button) unless that version of zoo had the enchantment hate/pyro in hand. I should note that piece of tech isn't a secret, pretty well known to zoo players. You guys have swords sometimes, skite, and that, so of coure we side in our enchant/arti hate. You cant count on that to carry you. It can make the game go hard in your favor, but it can also be tap out death if we have the answer. Id say the reward out weights the risk though.
Just chiming in so you guys don't think the zoo is really heavily in your favor. With 4 paths, 4 ghorclan (its a staple in our deck at this point) and access to some good midrange hate in our side, the matchup stays around 50-50 pre and post side, unless you over hate us in the main and side (finks, thrun, swords of light, worship, EE, and maybe even a few more.)
If any of you want to head over to the zoo thread I have the videos posted up. Might be a good watch for you. Feel free to ask questions there as well.
And thanks dol for letting me record it.
And that triple Wild Nacatl draw is dangerous. I barely held on thanks to EE, but still couldn't keep up in that game.
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My videos up now. just a small delay, sorry.
Yeah, but its a fairly consistent thing for us. maybe 1/2 points less damage. But even E1>ape>lion, on the play gives us 3+2+2+3=8 damage. With nacatls it can go up around 8-10 damage, e1 being more dangerous in that case because it regens into open mana for more evolving.
EE is a good card, no doubt, but can be played around/through
I cant wait to see your end. Kinda funny to get both our views on the match.
If you are on the play against Zoo, you Chalice for 1 on turn 2 and Zoo only has one 1-drop out at most. If you are on the draw they can have as many as 3 1-drops by their turn 2, so you hope to have EE instead in that situation.
Just keep in mind that Chalice is better on the play, and EE is better on the draw, and mulligan accordingly.
Against Affinity on the play, Chalice for 0 shuts off their fastest starts. On the draw, you still Chalice for 0 most of the time to shut off later 0-drop draws. If you draw Chalice late you try to drop it for 2 or 3 to shut off Affinity's most important cards.
But those two matches are not the only places where Chalice matters. I'll briefly recap where I use it.
UWR - Set for 1 to stop Bolt & Path
Delver - Set at 1 to shut off a large chunk of the deck, including cantrips, Bolt...
Blue Moon - Set at 1 and shut off Serum Visions, Bolt, Spell Snare, etc.
Bogle - Set at 1 and shut off most of the deck
Burn - Set at 1
Living End - Set at 0 and shut off the card Living End
Infect - Set at 1 and shut off most pump spells and cheap Infect creatures
Storm - Set at 2 and shut off the key half of the deck, or set at 1 and shut off the other half of the deck
8-Rack - Set at 1 and shut off most of the deck
Amulet - Set at 0 to stop Pacts from being cast, or set at 1 if they didn't play an Amulet on turn 1 to stop Amulet itself
Tin Fins - Set at 2 to stop Goryo's. Could also set at 1 when on the draw to stop Faithless and cantrips
Soul Sisters - Set at 1
Ad Nauseum Combo - Set at 0 to shut off Lotus, or at 1 to stop cantrips and Angel's Grace
Most of the format operates on 1 or 2 mana. Chalice punishes those decks that concentrate all of their spells at those costs. It is VERY powerful right now in Modern, but few decks can play it because of their 1-drops. We don't have as many 1-drops, and none of them are critical to our success, so we get to run this amazing hoser for half the format while the rest of the format has to play fair. This card is one of the main reasons why I'm choosing this deck for the Grand Prix.
***
Any ideas on the 1 or two floating SB slots? I really want something, but its also temping to just run 2 Rest In Peace and say "done."
About GB, here's what I think about the options:
Baneslayer Angel - It flies, has lifelink, and is large enough to answer most of GB's creatures. Dies to Maelstrom Pulse.
Batterskull - It is a Baneslayer Angel of sorts that can be moved around to another creature or bounced back to hand if necessary. Very powerful card, but may be too slow for us.
Gideon Jura - UWR control uses this to answer a horde of creatures, why not us? This can break a board stall immediately by forcing the opponent to attack and giving us an opportunity to strike back. Plus this seems like a sick play against smaller aggro decks in the late game.
Obstinate Baloth - Discard clause, but body isn't enough to answer a creature, vulnerable to Pulse, and no protection. This tested well vs. Small Zoo.
Auriok Champion - Pro black, but very tiny and will get run over by even an un-pumped Scavenging Ooze.
Mirran Crusader - Pro black and green, so will block and be able to punch through a BG board. Can't die to BG's removal. One of our better options, but not maindeck as long as Lightning Bolt is widely played.
Rest In Peace - Makes Goyfs 0/1s & Oozes unable to grow. Dies to Abrupt Decay. Has uses beyond BG decks. I'm current;y running this.
Sword of Feast and Famine - Makes one of our creatures a Mirran Crusader. Dies to Abrupt Decay and Pulse. Has applications against control decks, Costs "5" for first equip.
Sword of Light and Shadow - Makes one of our creatures immune from Abrupt and Pulse. Dies to Abrupt Decay and Pulse. Can be used against control decks and aggro decks due to life gain and raise dead ability.
What about Mystic Enforcer? It is a four drop that can't die to Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, can attack past Bitterblossom, and can have great stats once Threshold is reached? A 6/6 for 4 isn't a bad rate, and having Pro Black means this card can fly over BG without being touched by removal. The big thing is that this will not answer any of the Green creatures, and it dies to Bolt. Is it better than our other options? IDK. Its at least worth a mention.
I feel like each option has a match up where it will be great, and its up to us to find out which match up we need to use the slot for. I can run any of these, but at the expense of another match up becoming slightly worse. What's the call here?
~ Brian DeMars
Here are the videos against Zoo.
Zoo Match 1
Zoo Match 2
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Spellskite
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Path to Exile
2 Rancor
Land: 23
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Spellskite
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Worship
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Torpor Orb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
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While I'm thinking of cards and am still awake, Aura Of Silence may be worth considering. It would make Affinity's spells cost 2 more, severely slow down some parts of Blue Moon, and still act as a Seal Of Primordium. The trade off is that it costs 3, so it might be a turn behind when Blood Moon hits. Also being WW may make that card hard to cast in some situations.
Searching Gatherer for everything Green or White between 4 and 5 CMC...
Chameleon Colossus - Its a 4/4 with pro black that can get much bigger through pumps.
Loxodon Hierarch - This is a Obstinate Baloth that can regenerate our team. No discard clause however.
Mirrorweave - An interesting way to turn the tables on the Phyrexian Obliterator player by making our entire team Obliterators for a turn!
Patrician's Scorn - Can be used as a "free" Back to Nature in many situations.
Restoration Angel - Could be good in a list that also runs Kitchen Finks or Blade Slicer instead of Loxodon Smiter.
Retaliate - Really expensive way to deal with creatures that attack us that we can't deal with.
Reveilark - Could stall the board and then bring back some of our hate bears. Good value creature.
Reverence - Stops Twin creatures from attacking, and prevents death via Tokens until they get two pumps.
Sigarda, Host of Herons - Extremely hard to kill if it resolves.
Springjack Shepherd - This can make a bunch of chump blockers if we are stuck in a grindy creature match.
Thragtusk - For 5 mana we can gain 5 life immediately, and have two bodies. Pretty good value here.
Timbermare - This would break a stalemate long enough for us to win?
Wall of Reverence - We can gain a lot of life with this, and hold off large creatures at the same time.
~ Brian DeMars
If the discard clause is so important - why not Wilt-Leaf Liege - turn your team into finishers.
PS: could you perhaps spoiler your decklist at the bottom of each post - it just makes it easier to check what you have in already.
1 Drops
2 Drops
3 Drops
4 Drops:
5 Drops
Spells:
Some of these aren't the greatest choices, and are things that I just wanted to look at as options. Some of them aren't going to make it onto the final list, as they are only good against 1-2 decks, or only fit well into certain builds. Fauna Shaman for example is really only good in a toolbox deck to fetch out silver bullet answers, and doesn't really play well with Arbiter.
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Personally I don't find the discard clause important, but I know others value having that extra protection against Liliana OTV.
My list isn't changing much at this point. I'm really down to hemming and hawwing over one or two cards in the sideboard, and I have a feeling when its all said and done that I'll just have to go with my gut on that choice:
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Temple Garden
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Path to Exile
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke
2 Torpor Orb
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Rest in Peace
~ Brian DeMars
I've also been considering more flash creatures, which are not only good vs Control, but also get much better vs Combo. Yeva, Nature's Herold and Restoration Angel are at the top of my list of cards to play test for this reason. The real challenge is finding the right mix of finishers that are effective in the meta, while still having the ability to close out games quickly. While I like Restoration Angel, it's 3 power doesn't exactly put on the fastest clock.
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