Also - another comment on the use of white - cutting it would allow me to run Blood Moon, which is going to be incredible in some situations. If aggro is ever off my radar as something to be weary of (and I can afford cutting the helices), I will definitely experiment with that line as well.
Interesting - Pillar of Flame over Magma Spray? Flexibility to go upstairs is worth the speed difference? Wouldn't a Coco player just hold off to try to combo once they've seen it?
Our lists are extremely different, but I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Visions in mine. I'm considering it in the side for control matchups, but I think I actually prefer Fevered Visions there.
Congrats on your strong finishes. This is certainly an archetype that rewards expertise with the list.
Interesting - Pillar of Flame over Magma Spray? Flexibility to go upstairs is worth the speed difference? Wouldn't a Coco player just hold off to try to combo once they've seen it?
Our lists are extremely different, but I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Visions in mine. I'm considering it in the side for control matchups, but I think I actually prefer Fevered Visions there.
Congrats on your strong finishes. This is certainly an archetype that rewards expertise with the list.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I use SFGM as a two of and no cliques.Its huge late game and when top decking.The life gain gets big,helix and bolt is 9 life.Reliance on snappy isn't as high either since SFGM can fill the role.And when your opponent knows ur sitting on the same bolt turn after turn they become reluctant to play anything.
I use turn aside lately as well.
Hey guys, I've been playing all types of delver since moderns inception and after playing grixis delver for awhile I think it's boremandos's time to shine again. I have been testing a lot for the upcoming gp and I honestly think this list is strong enough to finish well. I'm a little surprised to see so many jeskai delver decks without Boros charms, I personally feel like the card is too underrated in these types of decks.
Hey all, I've been brewing a lot in modern recently. Trying to make Monastery Mentor work, and not having a ton of success. Was he ever tried in this Jeskai Delver shell? If so, why didn't he really work out?
Mentor is usually just a turn too slow and at 3 mana, he trades unfavorably with pretty much every removal spell in modern. Functionally, Young Pyromancer does the same thing that you need Mentor to do, but he comes out a whole turn earlier. At least if he eats a removal other than bolt, it's an equal mana trade.
I'm not sure if anyone took my version of the deck into testing, but I've updated it slightly (above) and have gone 9-1 in testing this week.
It should be seriously considered for those who like a counter-burn play style. It may look like a delver deck, but the play style is actually quite different. Nevertheless there is overlap.
I'm likely taking it to some major tournaments this year, as with tight play, it even handles poor match ups well.
As Nauseam and Kitchen Finks are the two scariest cards to see. Fevered Visions is a godsend to over perform in the control matches.
It is a bit terrifying to pilot as it's basically a control deck without a fatty finisher, and I wind up winning a lot of games tightly that look like losses two turns prior.
Feedback and questions welcome. I'm probably about 100 matches in on it, but have only recorded results of the last 10. Of the 9 wins, two were sub tier 3 decks. The one loss came 0-2 versus 8Rack.
Thanks for your feedback LeoTzu - Mentor might just not be a good fit for Modern.
taptwo, after considering this list I think I would really like a counter-burn kind of deck. Here's what I have initially thought of:
I made a number of changes. For starters, my meta is terribly warped around UWR Control, so having 4 Geist could really be a boon. I cut down to no Probes and only 2 Serums - which I could easily see as incorrect, but after playing a bit of UR Delver I haven't been too impressed with them in a more proactive deck. Instead, I added two Mana Leaks and went up to 21 lands. I figure I will want to hit 4-5 mana regularly for countermagic and Snapcaster. I also exchanged Vapor Snags for Paths. Has snag proved better than path in your testing?
The sideboard allows me to do something I've wanted to in awhile. 4 Boros Charm allow me to transform into almost a burn deck. On the other side, countermagic and removal could let me transform into a more control style deck. Keeping my opponent guessing could be a lot of fun. I also kept the two Fevered Visions - not really sure how they play, but they seem sweet.
This deck reminds me a lot of Joel Larsson's standard deck from Pro Tour Gatecrash. Kind of scrappy, with a little bit of enough things to get there. I might build it in MTGO and do some testing.
Here’s why Mentor fails in Modern: It doesn’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution, and dies to both Bolt and Decay.
There are SOME three-drops that don’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution and still see play in Modern, but they pass the Bolt test (and usually, also the Decay test). Still, these creatures are fringe at best (Courser of Kruphix is one).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This is a bad curve. You have a 4-of one drop, no two drops (snaps is a three drop minimum), you're crowded on the three drop slot, and you go as high as a 3-of four drop. How many lands are you going to run to support casting 3 resto angels and a bunch of 3 drops on curve? Keep in mind that the more lands you run, the less chance you have of flipping delver, since you're already running 18 creatures (which is way too high). The max I'd go is 15 creatures, since even with 18 lands, you still only have 27 spells to flip delver with (I wouldn't go lower than 26 instants and sorceries in a delver deck). If you're running both geist and snaps, you probably can't support more than 2 snapcasters and 3 geists and still have a low enough land count to get the number of spells that you need to reliably flip delver.
I don't think Reflector Mage really belongs in this type of deck. Or rather, he's a tempo card, but his power level isn't high enough. When you cast him, your opponent doesn't whisper a barely audible "****" under their breath. I would take him and resto out, cut snappy down to a 2-of, and run something like 4 delver, 4 myth realized, 3 geist, and 2 snapcaster. And I still think that's not as good as a more aggressive 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 4 stormchaser, 3 snapcaster with a super-lean burn burn package of 4 bolts, 3-4 boros charm, some vapor snags, disrupting shoal, and some combination of dispels/spell pierce/spell snare (maybe a 1-of deprive).
Was really wondering whether Magma Jet would be good in it. Besides that I really need some help overall, what do you guys think?
Hi Xweto. I'm glad you ran into my list. I think Emerge Unscathed is a highly underplayed card in modern. It' only fits in very specigic deck types, but in those decks it's extremely beneficial and can account for game changing two for ones.
I have often wondered about Magma Jet also in a deck with delver and abbot. I have never run 4 abbots (I typically only have one or two) so I always felt that the scry 2 was not worth the additional mana over something like forked bolt. To be honest, with 4 of each delver and abbot, it's worth testing at minimum.
I assume this list is based on a budget. Overall this list looks very good. Without playing the deck I would probably cut one probe or emerge unscathed and add an izzet charm, that way you get additional counter magic in the deck without hitting a blank on an abbot flip. I would probably cut one abbot for another Geist since he is your best threat and they are both basically three drops. Other than that, the list looks great.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
This won't be enough to make the deck good again, but Unsubstantiate is probably the best 2-mana counter that we could possibly have.
1 mana is not worth the added flexibility of half a Remand on Unsummon. This card seems really terrible to me.
How so? Sure, it doesn't draw a card, but being able to bounce creatures or spells is really flexible. Besides, it also can "counter" Abrupt Decay, so that is useful.
This won't be enough to make the deck good again, but Unsubstantiate is probably the best 2-mana counter that we could possibly have.
1 mana is not worth the added flexibility of half a Remand on Unsummon. This card seems really terrible to me.
How so? Sure, it doesn't draw a card, but being able to bounce creatures or spells is really flexible. Besides, it also can "counter" Abrupt Decay, so that is useful.
Not flexible enough to cost twice as much mana. Simic Charm is a good example of an Unsummon with enough extra flexibility to merit the extra mana. It too counters Decay, but it also: doubles as reach when you're attacking, grows creatures like Geist or Nacatl past blockers like Tasigur and Goyf, and saves your creatures from Vedalken Shackles activations, as well as protect your creatures from anything you would want to "counter" with Unsubstantiate (opponents can just cast this card again, even if they have to wait a turn to do it). Unsubstantiate really doesn't measure up.
Another good indicator of how bad this card is: Venser, Shaper Savant. This creature costs two more mana and gives us Unsubstantiate on a body. Two mana is usually worth an added-on body; see Snapcaster Mage, Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, and Eternal Witness, all of which see Modern play. Venser, however, sees no play. It's obviously not exactly the same scenario as the other examples, but considering all the synergies creatures have in Modern with cards like Restoration Angel, Chord of Calling, etc., it kind of speaks to how weak Unsubstantiate's effect actually is in this format, even at one mana. Vapor Snag, an upgradedUnsummon, sees fringe play already.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Just my tri-monthly update on my delverless version of the deck. I think I need to think long and hard about the four spots devoted to spell pierce and spell snare, as they were thrown in there kind of blind. I could also be convinced to eliminate a single Grim Lavamancer, but probably would want it put in the side.
The biggest change is I added Hallowed Moonlight to my sideboard, and oh my god this card is beyond sweet. It plays beautifully with Young Pyro because with the order the effects resolve in, you still get your token, but they don't get whatever it is you're screwing up for them. Abzan Coco is helpless, and not just because it hoses their combo - it also messes with Voice of Resurgence, which is otherwise a nightmare card for counter-burn decks. It's also been great against Kiki-Chord decks, and has even been used once to nerf a Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimate.
I also have found Disdainful Stroke to be an acceptable sideboard card to improve Tron and Control matchups, and Twisted Image to be an acceptable way to deal with Spellskites, Birds, and Hierarchs with the ever-so-valuable cantrip.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Our lists are extremely different, but I'm hesitant to run Ancestral Visions in mine. I'm considering it in the side for control matchups, but I think I actually prefer Fevered Visions there.
Congrats on your strong finishes. This is certainly an archetype that rewards expertise with the list.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
I use turn aside lately as well.
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Serum Visions
4 Remand
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Boros Charm
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Dispel
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
Hey guys, I've been playing all types of delver since moderns inception and after playing grixis delver for awhile I think it's boremandos's time to shine again. I have been testing a lot for the upcoming gp and I honestly think this list is strong enough to finish well. I'm a little surprised to see so many jeskai delver decks without Boros charms, I personally feel like the card is too underrated in these types of decks.
Thanks for your feedback LeoTzu - Mentor might just not be a good fit for Modern.
taptwo, after considering this list I think I would really like a counter-burn kind of deck. Here's what I have initially thought of:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
PERMISSION
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
4 Remand
BURN
2 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Path to Exile
2 Serum Visions
LAND
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Dispel
1 Path to Exile
2 Wear // Tear
4 Boros Charm
2 Negate
2 Stony Silence
2 Fevered Visions
I made a number of changes. For starters, my meta is terribly warped around UWR Control, so having 4 Geist could really be a boon. I cut down to no Probes and only 2 Serums - which I could easily see as incorrect, but after playing a bit of UR Delver I haven't been too impressed with them in a more proactive deck. Instead, I added two Mana Leaks and went up to 21 lands. I figure I will want to hit 4-5 mana regularly for countermagic and Snapcaster. I also exchanged Vapor Snags for Paths. Has snag proved better than path in your testing?
The sideboard allows me to do something I've wanted to in awhile. 4 Boros Charm allow me to transform into almost a burn deck. On the other side, countermagic and removal could let me transform into a more control style deck. Keeping my opponent guessing could be a lot of fun. I also kept the two Fevered Visions - not really sure how they play, but they seem sweet.
This deck reminds me a lot of Joel Larsson's standard deck from Pro Tour Gatecrash. Kind of scrappy, with a little bit of enough things to get there. I might build it in MTGO and do some testing.
There are SOME three-drops that don’t unconditionally provide value upon resolution and still see play in Modern, but they pass the Bolt test (and usually, also the Decay test). Still, these creatures are fringe at best (Courser of Kruphix is one).
This article should help you evaluate creatures for Modern:
http://modernnexus.com/whats-goyf-benchmark-creature-playability-modern/
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
This is a bad curve. You have a 4-of one drop, no two drops (snaps is a three drop minimum), you're crowded on the three drop slot, and you go as high as a 3-of four drop. How many lands are you going to run to support casting 3 resto angels and a bunch of 3 drops on curve? Keep in mind that the more lands you run, the less chance you have of flipping delver, since you're already running 18 creatures (which is way too high). The max I'd go is 15 creatures, since even with 18 lands, you still only have 27 spells to flip delver with (I wouldn't go lower than 26 instants and sorceries in a delver deck). If you're running both geist and snaps, you probably can't support more than 2 snapcasters and 3 geists and still have a low enough land count to get the number of spells that you need to reliably flip delver.
I don't think Reflector Mage really belongs in this type of deck. Or rather, he's a tempo card, but his power level isn't high enough. When you cast him, your opponent doesn't whisper a barely audible "****" under their breath. I would take him and resto out, cut snappy down to a 2-of, and run something like 4 delver, 4 myth realized, 3 geist, and 2 snapcaster. And I still think that's not as good as a more aggressive 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 4 stormchaser, 3 snapcaster with a super-lean burn burn package of 4 bolts, 3-4 boros charm, some vapor snags, disrupting shoal, and some combination of dispels/spell pierce/spell snare (maybe a 1-of deprive).
Hi Xweto. I'm glad you ran into my list. I think Emerge Unscathed is a highly underplayed card in modern. It' only fits in very specigic deck types, but in those decks it's extremely beneficial and can account for game changing two for ones.
I have often wondered about Magma Jet also in a deck with delver and abbot. I have never run 4 abbots (I typically only have one or two) so I always felt that the scry 2 was not worth the additional mana over something like forked bolt. To be honest, with 4 of each delver and abbot, it's worth testing at minimum.
I assume this list is based on a budget. Overall this list looks very good. Without playing the deck I would probably cut one probe or emerge unscathed and add an izzet charm, that way you get additional counter magic in the deck without hitting a blank on an abbot flip. I would probably cut one abbot for another Geist since he is your best threat and they are both basically three drops. Other than that, the list looks great.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
How so? Sure, it doesn't draw a card, but being able to bounce creatures or spells is really flexible. Besides, it also can "counter" Abrupt Decay, so that is useful.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Another good indicator of how bad this card is: Venser, Shaper Savant. This creature costs two more mana and gives us Unsubstantiate on a body. Two mana is usually worth an added-on body; see Snapcaster Mage, Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw, and Eternal Witness, all of which see Modern play. Venser, however, sees no play. It's obviously not exactly the same scenario as the other examples, but considering all the synergies creatures have in Modern with cards like Restoration Angel, Chord of Calling, etc., it kind of speaks to how weak Unsubstantiate's effect actually is in this format, even at one mana. Vapor Snag, an upgraded Unsummon, sees fringe play already.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The biggest change is I added Hallowed Moonlight to my sideboard, and oh my god this card is beyond sweet. It plays beautifully with Young Pyro because with the order the effects resolve in, you still get your token, but they don't get whatever it is you're screwing up for them. Abzan Coco is helpless, and not just because it hoses their combo - it also messes with Voice of Resurgence, which is otherwise a nightmare card for counter-burn decks. It's also been great against Kiki-Chord decks, and has even been used once to nerf a Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimate.
I also have found Disdainful Stroke to be an acceptable sideboard card to improve Tron and Control matchups, and Twisted Image to be an acceptable way to deal with Spellskites, Birds, and Hierarchs with the ever-so-valuable cantrip.
Changed quantities or cards in bold.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
CREATURES
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
REMOVAL/BURN
1 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vapor Snag
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
DIGGING
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
2 Echoing Truth
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Gut Shot
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Celestial Purge
1 Negate
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Twisted Image
1 Wear//Tear
I'm continuing to post an excellent overall testing record with this deck, and will most likely be playing it at SCG Syracuse.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine