What do people think about cutting Geist for Clique and Restoration Angel? There's a lot of BGx Rock running around so Geist is kinda bad. This is what I'm thinking.
Then why would you play this deck over WUR Midrange? Going big really isn't the answer. It just makes us a worse WUR Midrange, especially without even running Gitaxian Probe for the Young Pyromancers.
Meh, I think 20 is all right. Ideally, you want to get to at least 4 lands to be able to cast multiple spells or to flash in Snapcaster to cast a flashbacked Remand or Helix. Also, check out this guy's list. He is running Aether Vials in his list which allows him to flash in Snapcaster for 1 mana as well as Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor on the opponent's turn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb2q5R8i_20
Though his sideboard choices and manabase is questionable.
Interesting for certain to use vial, but i feel we don't have enough creatures to get the most utility out of it, don't get me wrong i love the idea of flashing in a mentor and bolting a dude to get a monk, but it seems counter intuitive with delver for flipping, also not a fan of his sideboard like you said. Vial may warrant some testing, but it is a dead top deck for later in the game.
Shouta Yasooka made the semifinals of the 2012 Player's Championship with this list, which ran 4 Aether Vial and only 13 creatures. If I'm not mistaken, that's less than this YouTube guy runs?
That Eternal Command deck was much more controlling than this deck and could afford to spend more time on setup. It also worked a lot better with Aether Vial (vialing in Eternal Witness and Goyf is much more relevant than vialing in Young Pyromancer, Geist of Saint Traft, or Delver of Secrets).
I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying that claiming 13 creatures is "too few" for Vial to function optimally in Modern is both false and misguided. My point has nothing to do with how controlling one deck is in relation to another.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Then why would you play this deck over WUR Midrange? Going big really isn't the answer. It just makes us a worse WUR Midrange, especially without even running Gitaxian Probe for the Young Pyromancers.
Young Pyromancer is 1 mana cheaper than Monastery Mentor, which also sees play in Modern. Esper Mentor recently won a decent size tournament in Japan. And that deck didn't run Gix Probes either. Young Pyromancer can work without Gix Probe. I'll add 2 Geists back in place of Restoration Angel. However, Young Pyromancer is playable in Modern with or without Gix Probe. http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9179&d=252730&f=MO
Going to a GPT this weekend so ill post results and matchups and stuff.
Affinity is scary been testing against my friend and etched champion is really hard to beat.
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Ive been thinking about vial the whole day and it could be strong, but I think you would maybe need like a spellstutter sprite and mutavaults maybe or something. would be better in UR delver imo
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To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
I'm not arguing against that, I'm just saying that claiming 13 creatures is "too few" for Vial to function optimally in Modern is both false and misguided. My point has nothing to do with how controlling one deck is in relation to another.
The fact is that while 13 creatures is not "too few", its not optimal either, you're investing 4 slots on a card that works only with other 13, its comparable with how Snapcaster Mage only works with instants/sorceries, the decks that use to run him play with at least 16 of those spells, twin I believe is the bottom, and in any case you can still cast snapcaster just as a body. The eternal command deck got away with playing only 13 creatures because of how much value it got out of vialing a Eternal Witness to recover Cryptic Command or vialing a Snapcaster to cast something from the graveyard expending 2 less mana. So to sum up, it can be done, but its not optimal.
Then why would you play this deck over WUR Midrange? Going big really isn't the answer. It just makes us a worse WUR Midrange, especially without even running Gitaxian Probe for the Young Pyromancers.
Young Pyromancer is 1 mana cheaper than Monastery Mentor, which also sees play in Modern. Esper Mentor recently won a decent size tournament in Japan. And that deck didn't run Gix Probes either. Young Pyromancer can work without Gix Probe. I'll add 2 Geists back in place of Restoration Angel. However, Young Pyromancer is playable in Modern with or without Gix Probe.
Young Pyromancer can work without Gitaxian Probe, but again it is about being optimal, unless you are to scared of burn, why not run probes? they give you information to better use your removal/counters, give you a token for free, thin your deck, etc.
Going to a GPT this weekend so ill post results and matchups and stuff.
Affinity is scary been testing against my friend and etched champion is really hard to beat.
Etched Champion is our main concern in that matchup since once it hits we can't do nothing to stop it. Maindeck hard (or quasi hard) counters (Deprive, Mana Leak) and mass removal sideboard (Engineered Explosives, Vandalblast) are necessary in order to beat it.
Honestly I'm not a fan of Probe. I'd rather run more counter/burn/bounce spells over it. Personal preference I guess. Btw has anyone tried out Blade Splicer? I'm thinking of a 2-2 split between Splicer and Geist, since there's a lot of BGx Rock at the local meta and in general.
Honestly I'm not a fan of Probe. I'd rather run more counter/burn/bounce spells over it. Personal preference I guess. Btw has anyone tried out Blade Splicer? I'm thinking of a 2-2 split between Splicer and Geist, since there's a lot of BGx Rock at the local meta and in general.
Blade splicer is only really good once you have bounce effects like with restoration angel and that 3 mana 3/1 flyer in hate bears, can't think of the name. But all we get is a 1/1 and a 3/3 first strike, neither one of those is strong vs BGx decks sadly. If you need hate for them, might i recommend main decking mirran crusader or mantis rider? or if you feel frisky, try out Lightning Angel
Yeah i feel that is getting a little bit greedy, the collar would be much better on a creature that does sweeping effects like the new gruul dragon from DTK, but here you really just want to use grim as an answer to lots of little creatures or for adding damage for a bolt or electrolyze spell. Since you have BGx decks in the meta as well, scavanging ooze may also tax your graveyard as well, but grim does weaken tarmogoyfs too. Grim should be maybe a 1-2 of, but the collar is getting really greedy since it is a dead draw and only really works well with the lavaman
I was also an avid fan of Boros Charm, always talking about its benefits whenever I could, but the meta started to shift (Lingering Souls and Siege Rhino becoming more popular) and I found myself needing more continuous aggression and a heavy burn plan wasn't cutting it any more, so I went the Young Pyromancer way and couldn't fit Boros Charm any more. My current list is very similar to the regular build of a Grixis Delver list which are doing really well right now. I'm not saying that the lists are the same but the approach is and it has worked for me so far. For reference I'll post my current list and what a regular Grixis Delver list looks like
The differences between the decks being:
-2 Geist of Saint Traft, -1 Young Pyromancer, -1 Snapcaster Mage, +2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, +2 Gurmag Angler
-4 Lightning Helix, +3 Thought Scour, +1 Kolaghan's Command
-3 Path to Exile, +2 Murderous Cut, +1 Terminate
While Grixis needs the scours to power up its delve spells, Jeskai can use Helix to have a better matchup against burn and other aggro decks which are a problem for the Grixis deck... the downside the Jeskai deck has is the lack of power provided by the delve creatures, but between Young Pyromancer and Geist I have been doing just fine. I would like to know what do you guys think of this comparative analysis
Ah, I didn't up playing delver at the GPT, I brought my burn deck also, I saw like 1 twin player and 1 affinity player, and a buttload of grixis delver and other good burn matchups.
I don't like boros charm, but to be fair ive never tested it. Ill try your list out Philip.
I think this deck is pretty different from Grixis, so I don't really like comparing the two decks, they both usually pretty differently unless you land a turn 1 delver.
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It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
this deck is everywhere now, Ive played it a few times and beaten each time, I feel like we may be favored but not really sure.
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To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
The Jeskai Delver deck would has a better shot at winning vs grixis i believe in a 1 v 1. Jeskai has way more burn and can punish grixis. However grixis does have the bigger creatures which geist can be blocked by, but its still 4 damage coming through from the angel. If i were to face them, guaranteed i would bring in an izzet staticaster and relic of progenitus as a way to handle young peezy and delve. the deck is already naturally suited to fight grixis due to the larger burn suit Jeskai has over it
how would you sideboard for grixis with this list?
thinking about cutting a flashfreeze for another wear/tear, izzet statiscaster, or grim lavamncer. or maybe 2nd explosives? a burst lightning
or maybe counterflux? but I hate 3 mana counters.
I kind of want a 2nd clique, maybe cut a electrolyze.
EDIT :
also thoughts on adding 1 black source for some lingering souls, makes affinity, infect twin, and junk easier. but it could be pretty out there, ill test it.
To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
this deck is everywhere now, Ive played it a few times and beaten each time, I feel like we may be favored but not really sure.
Lol. This matchup is pretty much unloseable, especially if you run Valorous Stance. Grinded against a friend of mine on the deck a few nights ago and it's as good as it looks on paper.
During testing, we had -2 Isochron Scepter (they were in the side), -1 Island, +2 Spell Snare, and +1 Dispel. Grixis Delver should be even easier to beat with the Scepters main, since they were such a bomb from the SB in games 2 and 3 (thanks for the tech Phillip!). Friend was @Radouf on the "good" version (no Pyromancer).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Testing a version that splashes black for lingering souls, great since you can cast souls without black.
hasn't been bad or good yet.
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To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. - William Blake
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
Young Pyromance dies to removal very easily and makes me run Gitaxian Probe, it is a 2 drop though, which this deck needs.''
lingering souls just makes junk/jund so much better a matchup, I would say almost favorable now/
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Then why would you play this deck over WUR Midrange? Going big really isn't the answer. It just makes us a worse WUR Midrange, especially without even running Gitaxian Probe for the Young Pyromancers.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That Eternal Command deck was much more controlling than this deck and could afford to spend more time on setup. It also worked a lot better with Aether Vial (vialing in Eternal Witness and Goyf is much more relevant than vialing in Young Pyromancer, Geist of Saint Traft, or Delver of Secrets).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9179&d=252730&f=MO
Affinity is scary been testing against my friend and etched champion is really hard to beat.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
Young Pyromancer can work without Gitaxian Probe, but again it is about being optimal, unless you are to scared of burn, why not run probes? they give you information to better use your removal/counters, give you a token for free, thin your deck, etc.
Etched Champion is our main concern in that matchup since once it hits we can't do nothing to stop it. Maindeck hard (or quasi hard) counters (Deprive, Mana Leak) and mass removal sideboard (Engineered Explosives, Vandalblast) are necessary in order to beat it.
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Young Pyromancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Blade Splicer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
Blade splicer is only really good once you have bounce effects like with restoration angel and that 3 mana 3/1 flyer in hate bears, can't think of the name. But all we get is a 1/1 and a 3/3 first strike, neither one of those is strong vs BGx decks sadly. If you need hate for them, might i recommend main decking mirran crusader or mantis rider? or if you feel frisky, try out Lightning Angel
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
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Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Yeah i feel that is getting a little bit greedy, the collar would be much better on a creature that does sweeping effects like the new gruul dragon from DTK, but here you really just want to use grim as an answer to lots of little creatures or for adding damage for a bolt or electrolyze spell. Since you have BGx decks in the meta as well, scavanging ooze may also tax your graveyard as well, but grim does weaken tarmogoyfs too. Grim should be maybe a 1-2 of, but the collar is getting really greedy since it is a dead draw and only really works well with the lavaman
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
Jeskai Delver
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
3 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Deprive
2 Spell Snare
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Flashfreeze
2 Wear // Tear
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Combust
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Valorous Stance
1 Path to Exile
Grixis Delver
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Electrolyze
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
1 Terminate
2 Deprive
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thought Scour
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
The differences between the decks being:
-2 Geist of Saint Traft, -1 Young Pyromancer, -1 Snapcaster Mage, +2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, +2 Gurmag Angler
-4 Lightning Helix, +3 Thought Scour, +1 Kolaghan's Command
-3 Path to Exile, +2 Murderous Cut, +1 Terminate
While Grixis needs the scours to power up its delve spells, Jeskai can use Helix to have a better matchup against burn and other aggro decks which are a problem for the Grixis deck... the downside the Jeskai deck has is the lack of power provided by the delve creatures, but between Young Pyromancer and Geist I have been doing just fine. I would like to know what do you guys think of this comparative analysis
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
I don't like boros charm, but to be fair ive never tested it. Ill try your list out Philip.
I think this deck is pretty different from Grixis, so I don't really like comparing the two decks, they both usually pretty differently unless you land a turn 1 delver.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
this deck is everywhere now, Ive played it a few times and beaten each time, I feel like we may be favored but not really sure.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
On my tombstone, please write "Now his body fuels the Treasure Cruise"
Or you could Kommand him back...
Check out my Youtube Page for online Magic Content!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcq-a5rTSNclFCS2o4_lVFw
Modern:
BURGrixis DelverRUB
URUR DelverRU
URBlue MoonRU
RIPURUR TwinRURIP
Legacy:
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RUBGrixis PyromancerRUB
Commander:
URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
URBJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeRUB
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Vendilion Clique
Lands
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Deprive
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
Removal
4 Path to Exile
3 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Helix
2 Valorous Stance
4 Lightning Bolt
Cantrips
4 Serum Visions
2 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
1 Dispel
3 Kor Firewalker
1 Wear // Tear
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Spellskite
2 Sower of Temptation
how would you sideboard for grixis with this list?
thinking about cutting a flashfreeze for another wear/tear, izzet statiscaster, or grim lavamncer. or maybe 2nd explosives? a burst lightning
or maybe counterflux? but I hate 3 mana counters.
I kind of want a 2nd clique, maybe cut a electrolyze.
EDIT :
also thoughts on adding 1 black source for some lingering souls, makes affinity, infect twin, and junk easier. but it could be pretty out there, ill test it.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
Current list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
Other permanents (2)
2 Isochron Scepter
Instants (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Valorous Stance
1 Boros Charm
3 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
2 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
2 Wear / Tear
1 Lightning Helix
1 Valorous Stance
2 (flex)
During testing, we had -2 Isochron Scepter (they were in the side), -1 Island, +2 Spell Snare, and +1 Dispel. Grixis Delver should be even easier to beat with the Scepters main, since they were such a bomb from the SB in games 2 and 3 (thanks for the tech Phillip!). Friend was @Radouf on the "good" version (no Pyromancer).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
hasn't been bad or good yet.
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.
Flipping Delvers since 2011
MY DECKS
Modern: UR Izzet Delver
Pauper: U Delver Faeries | R Red Burn | GInfect
Commander: WB Athreos, God of Passage | UR Keranos Spellslinger | GWU Derevi, Tempo Tactician | BGU Tasigur, the Golden Fang | RW Feather, the Redeemed
lingering souls just makes junk/jund so much better a matchup, I would say almost favorable now/
It was not delight, not wonder that arose among us, it was the peace of heaven. He who has thought most deeply loves what is most alive. - Friedrich Holderlin
1907 Constructed Rating on Magic Online.