Awesome thread! I've been playing a lot of UR Delver lately(both the all in aggro version and the aggo-control version), and for what it's worth, I think DTT is definitely the way to go if you aren't going all in aggro with swiftspear and probe. Treasure cruise is amazing when I just need a quantity of cards to burn through, but dig is great in a deck like a lot of the WUR lists I've seen in here, that want to be able to change directions. It's quality over quantity.
If you are playing Gitaxian Probe, I'd play Cruise. If you are not, it is too hard to cast it for 1 mana and Dig is much better.
arguing semantics of archetypes name is probably in the top 5 of least productive forms of conversation in a MTG forum. Especially when you both are talking about the same thing.
I'll concede that point. Right now I am arguing with his definition of what Tempo/Aggro-Control is and whether my deck is a pile of aggro and control cards mashed together, not about whether Tempo is Aggro-Control.
it sort of is, though. I think "mashed together pile" implies some sort of negative connotation, which is rather unfair. But Tempo decks usually are cheap control elements paired with hyper efficient aggro elements. Think Lorwyn Fairies with Cryptic Command.
You run plenty of cheap control cards: Bolt, Path, Helix, and your Counter suite.
And you run plenty of hyper-efficient aggro cards: Rider, Geist, Delver, Bolt, and Helix.
I think the fact that a lot of the cards are good at all points in the game is sort of a moot point. That just means the deck is well designed, imo. That's the whole reason I personally switched to WUR Delver from UR; the late game Oomph that having 4 extra Bolts brings you.
I also think it's important to note that deck archetypes exist on a gradient; where some lists lean more on the aggro part of aggro-control others can be more control leaning.
I completely agree. However, Loooooooooooooo was saying that I am running a bad WUR Midrange deck with no real identity and bad situational reactive cards.
Hello, I have been following this thread for a few weeks now as I plan on playing in an IQ this weekend and have always liked delver decks. After trying a few different iterations I chose to go with WUR mainly for Geist and Helix. So far I like the deck a lot. I haven't been able to play test much against tier 1 decks due to my work schedule, but I try to test it against decks i find online whenever I can. I'm a little worried about my mana base as I can't afford Scalding Tarns at the moment but I hoping I can still pull the deck off.
Any help would be awesome. Tips, Tricks, Hints, Anything! Especially with the SB as this will be one of my first big modern events.
If you are on the Young Pyromancer plan with 20 lands, I'd cut the Swiftspears for the 4th Gitaxian Probe and the 3rd Snapcaster Mage. I would also cut Vapor Snag for the 4th Lightning Helix. The manabase definitely needs some changing. I would cut the Wooded Foothills and Bloodstained Mire either for 2 Arid Mesas (if you have them) or 2 Polluted Deltas (if you don't). I would also cut an Island and a Plains for a Seachrome Coast and a Hallowed Fountain unless if you are expecting a lot of Blood Moons in your meta. For the sideboard, I would probably just refer to the list I am posting below.
On another note, I drew into top 8 and won the first match against UR Delver. Unfortunately, I got paired up against WUR Midrange in the semifinals. They are one of the few decks that I believe has a favorable matchup against us. I was able to win game 2, but I manaflooded horribly in game 3 and eventually died to Celestial Colonnade on around turn 15. Here was the list that I actually ran.
Mantis Rider consistently overperformed until I got to the WUR Midrange matchup. People just don't hold up mana for Bolt that often and UR Delver runs very few answers to it, especially since they have to Bolt your Delvers too. It was really amazing against Merfolk, which has to Vapor Snag it as their only way of even delaying it. However, the vigilance was basically useless.
Treasure Cruise was cast for 1 mana only once and that was unnecessary. I am cutting it for Dig Through Time, which would have won me semifinals because I wouldn't have drawn 2 lands off of a Cruise and then continued to draw cards that I didn't want.
Timely Reinforcements was by far the best card in the sideboard. It did everything that I wanted it to.
In the future, I will try to get Brimaz and replace some Mantis Riders with him. This will make me remove the maindeck Harm's Way because protecting my own creatures from Bolt won't matter as much anymore. I'll probably add the 4th Path and either a Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or Vapor Snag instead. Other than that and my lack of Scalding Tarns, I am perfectly happy with my deck.
Nice deck and grats on the finish.
@ the Mantis Riders. I see you are thinkin of changing to the Brimaz but are you scared of the lack of flyers? Wouldnt Lightning Angel or Resto be easier trade outs? I kno the CMC 4 is a pain but w Modern having so many large ground creatures isnt the flying worth the 1 mana?
It was hard enough cutting cards to go up to 21 lands (I had to cut the 4th Snapcaster Mage). I'd need more for 4-drops and that is a step that I am unwilling to take. Also, Brimaz can tangle with most ground creatures other than Batterskull, Primeval Titan, Goyf, and Obstinate Baloth anyways.
I personally don't agree with a few slots. Particularly the Harm's Way.
I don't think you're going to lose the game from them 1-for-1'ing your threats when you can just refill with Cruise + burn them out.
I think YP is great in a deck where you're fighting to keep your threats alive (with your harm's way and such) so their absence confuses me. But, i mean you put up results with it, so i can't really argue.
I do think it's a little beyond the pale from what i'd consider a 'stock' UWR Delver. And i can't agree that your slots are optimal.
Mantis Rider is intriguing, though. But, playing the typical 12 creature package + 2 Snapcasters has never made me feel threat light; at no point in time have i felt i couldn't close out a game.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 drop dudes in general, but i play 19 lands so there's that.
I personally don't agree with a few slots. Particularly the Harm's Way.
I don't think you're going to lose the game from them 1-for-1'ing your threats when you can just refill with Cruise + burn them out.
The problem is against decks like WUR that are playing counterspells and lifegain. It is difficult to burn them out without creatures. However, Harm's Way was primarily there to fight Burn and Delver, not as a protection spell. It just has many uses.
I think YP is great in a deck where you're fighting to keep your threats alive (with your harm's way and such) so their absence confuses me. But, i mean you put up results with it, so i can't really argue.
Harm's Way doesn't save Young Pyromancer from Bolt and I have never been a fan of playing Pyromancer without playing Gitaxian Probe. I don't have spare slots for Probe, so I chose not to run Pyromancer. It also is much worse against Forked Bolt, which sees quite a bit of play.
I do think it's a little beyond the pale from what i'd consider a 'stock' UWR Delver. And i can't agree that your slots are optimal.
I agree that some of them aren't.
Mantis Rider is intriguing, though. But, playing the typical 12 creature package + 2 Snapcasters has never made me feel threat light; at no point in time have i felt i couldn't close out a game.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 drop dudes in general, but i play 19 lands so there's that.
I love the 3-drop guys. They are just so much more powerful than their cheaper counterparts.
I'm really not sure why you have been so negative with your most recent posts. I know you are trying to help with the deck, but positive/constructive critism is typically more well received. I have made a general rule that if anyone starts off with this is a "bad deck" or a "pile" especially when talking about a top 8 deck, I generally disregard anything that comes after that because it insinuates that the author believes they know all there is to know about all cards in all metas. I'm not saying you believe this, I just think constructive criticism and offering other card options are much better ways to help someone tweak their deck. Even Green Stompy won a modern daily (pre-cruise days in July 14) and I doubt many would consider this a great deck, just a good meta choice and in that case it was a good deck for the event/week. Whether you call it aggro-control or tempo it doesn't matter, everyone here is trying to come up with the best Jeskai Delver deck for them and for their meta and are looking for advice.
Also situational cards are not inherently bad. They are just situational, hence the name. While these type of cards are often utilized in the sideboard, having access to the correct situational card for an event/meta can often add a ton of power to your deck. Path to Exile is actually not the best in terms of pure tempo as it gives your opponent an additional land, thereby removing tempo, but because it is the best all around option we have as a removal card, it fits in very well with our plan. I do agree that having the wrong situational card in the mainboard in high numbers can cause loses in game one.
In my opinion, boxing one's self into a certain term such as tempo and considered cards only "good", "bad", "situational" can often lead a person to miss out on the creativity needed to actually have an advantage over the meta. Obviously the power of cards differ, but you can never know for sure until you test things. With reward there will always be risk. Having cards that the opponent does not know about or may not have even considered can often be an advantage in a matchup because many players play with a "net deck" in mind. Unknown information is extremely valuable because it can cause a player to play an incorrect line based on knowledge that they do not have or incorrect assumptions they have made. I don't want to come of as being condescending, as I am sure you already know all of this, I am just trying to make a point that by putting peoples choices down without offering another option or just plain saying something is bad can lead some to not take the risks necessary to succeed/grow with an archetype.
With all of that said, I do agree with you that Mantis Rider and Harms Way probably hurt the tempo a little too much. Not the cards themselves, but the number of them used. These cards may be good one of's in some meta's but Mantis is tough to cast and dies to bolt, and harm's way is situational (but not a bad choice at all). I also realize these were choices made due to availability. I also agree that we have to always maintain the fact that Delver is best as a tempo oriented deck. I tinker/test a ton and I can be accused (rightly so) of sometimes getting away from the archetype and need someone like your self to slap some sense into me.
As for the deck, I too play a more midrange version. With the power level of todays cards, a tempo deck does not have to have 60 cards all devoted to just keeping tempo. We now have the luxury of being able to have 2-3 cards in the deck that can allow us to turn a game around in which we have fallen behind. In my opinion, the best options to do so without harming our tempo too much are utility lands and planeswalkers. I play one celestial colonnade, one slayer's stronghold, and 1-2 chandra, pyromasters, depending on the meta. I can't say these cards never harm the tempo because drawing an opening hand with only slayers and colonnade can be a problem, but this is extremely rare. However, I can say that the addition of these cards have won me several games I would have lost otherwise and have helped much more than they have hurt. Where does everyone else fall on this topic?
I'm glad the Jeskai Delver deck is getting it's due now and I'm glad we have so many player's to help each other have the best deck they can.
i'll tone down
Sorry but i wrote that off impulse and failed to express in the right term.
The problem is that my criticism was in fact that the deck was a "pile" = goods cards that doesn't belong together mixed with debateble choice.
I failed too in expressing that narrow reactive card in MD in a "tempo" deck is bad, simply as that, i can't describe it better.
You admit that you play a midrange version, and thats fine, but WUR midrange was a deck before this and delver isn't the best choice (but thats my opinion) for a midrange deck like some other cards (see the UWR midrange thread for reference).
As for giving options to change the deck, i will post my deck.
I'm really not sure why you have been so negative with your most recent posts. I know you are trying to help with the deck, but positive/constructive critism is typically more well received. I have made a general rule that if anyone starts off with this is a "bad deck" or a "pile" especially when talking about a top 8 deck, I generally disregard anything that comes after that because it insinuates that the author believes they know all there is to know about all cards in all metas. I'm not saying you believe this, I just think constructive criticism and offering other card options are much better ways to help someone tweak their deck. Even Green Stompy won a modern daily (pre-cruise days in July 14) and I doubt many would consider this a great deck, just a good meta choice and in that case it was a good deck for the event/week. Whether you call it aggro-control or tempo it doesn't matter, everyone here is trying to come up with the best Jeskai Delver deck for them and for their meta and are looking for advice.
Also situational cards are not inherently bad. They are just situational, hence the name. While these type of cards are often utilized in the sideboard, having access to the correct situational card for an event/meta can often add a ton of power to your deck. Path to Exile is actually not the best in terms of pure tempo as it gives your opponent an additional land, thereby removing tempo, but because it is the best all around option we have as a removal card, it fits in very well with our plan. I do agree that having the wrong situational card in the mainboard in high numbers can cause loses in game one.
In my opinion, boxing one's self into a certain term such as tempo and considered cards only "good", "bad", "situational" can often lead a person to miss out on the creativity needed to actually have an advantage over the meta. Obviously the power of cards differ, but you can never know for sure until you test things. With reward there will always be risk. Having cards that the opponent does not know about or may not have even considered can often be an advantage in a matchup because many players play with a "net deck" in mind. Unknown information is extremely valuable because it can cause a player to play an incorrect line based on knowledge that they do not have or incorrect assumptions they have made. I don't want to come of as being condescending, as I am sure you already know all of this, I am just trying to make a point that by putting peoples choices down without offering another option or just plain saying something is bad can lead some to not take the risks necessary to succeed/grow with an archetype.
With all of that said, I do agree with you that Mantis Rider and Harms Way probably hurt the tempo a little too much. Not the cards themselves, but the number of them used. These cards may be good one of's in some meta's but Mantis is tough to cast and dies to bolt, and harm's way is situational (but not a bad choice at all). I also realize these were choices made due to availability. I also agree that we have to always maintain the fact that Delver is best as a tempo oriented deck. I tinker/test a ton and I can be accused (rightly so) of sometimes getting away from the archetype and need someone like your self to slap some sense into me.
As for the deck, I too play a more midrange version. With the power level of todays cards, a tempo deck does not have to have 60 cards all devoted to just keeping tempo. We now have the luxury of being able to have 2-3 cards in the deck that can allow us to turn a game around in which we have fallen behind. In my opinion, the best options to do so without harming our tempo too much are utility lands and planeswalkers. I play one celestial colonnade, one slayer's stronghold, and 1-2 chandra, pyromasters, depending on the meta. I can't say these cards never harm the tempo because drawing an opening hand with only slayers and colonnade can be a problem, but this is extremely rare. However, I can say that the addition of these cards have won me several games I would have lost otherwise and have helped much more than they have hurt. Where does everyone else fall on this topic?
I'm glad the Jeskai Delver deck is getting it's due now and I'm glad we have so many player's to help each other have the best deck they can.
i'll tone down
Sorry but i wrote that off impulse and failed to express in the right term.
The problem is that my criticism was in fact that the deck was a "pile" = goods cards that doesn't belong together mixed with debateble choice.
I failed too in expressing that narrow reactive card in MD in a "tempo" deck is bad, simply as that, i can't describe it better.
You admit that you play a midrange version, and thats fine, but WUR midrange was a deck before this and delver isn't the best choice (but thats my opinion) for a midrange deck like some other cards (see the UWR midrange thread for reference).
As for giving options to change the deck, i will post my deck.
I really don't think that splashing white just for Lightning Helix is good, especially since you often will be fetching for a shockland to cast it, which defeats the whole point. Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
SB cards are a thing and so is fetching EOT for a tapped shockland. Oh, and there is also the inclusion of the singleton basic plains.
I'm just not a fan. It seems like the Swiftspear version that is only running 4 white cards in the main would be better off with cheaper cards that work better with Swiftspear and Pyromancer and don't force you to splash a color. You do have a point about the sideboard. If he posts that and it has some good white cards, then I'll be less judgmental.
2cc is pretty cheap. And Helix is better reach than any other 2cc card you could play. And better reach than the 1cc cards you could play excluding Bolt which is auto-include. It's a 2-for-1 vs. Burn. It's some much needed life-padding vs. UR Delver.
And the full-art promo looks amazing.
I don't see how anyone could exclude it in an UWR list.
You're going to have to dig a little deeper than "I'm not a fan"...
His SB cards likely include some number of Path, Stony Silence, Wear//Tear. Which is to say, he's likely utilizing the fact he has access to White mana in his deckbuilding. To assume otherwise is silly.
Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
I never said otherwise.
Was that deck midrange? was packing 6 3cc creatures like you do? Midrange emerged exactly to play the game plan you are trying to play, and without delver...
I'm just not a fan. It seems like the Swiftspear version that is only running 4 white cards in the main would be better off with cheaper cards that work better with Swiftspear and Pyromancer and don't force you to splash a color. You do have a point about the sideboard. If he posts that and it has some good white cards, then I'll be less judgmental.
(disclaimer, i play it on modo).
one... errr.. two words Kor Firewalker.
I'm really not sure why you have been so negative with your most recent posts. I know you are trying to help with the deck, but positive/constructive critism is typically more well received. I have made a general rule that if anyone starts off with this is a "bad deck" or a "pile" especially when talking about a top 8 deck, I generally disregard anything that comes after that because it insinuates that the author believes they know all there is to know about all cards in all metas. I'm not saying you believe this, I just think constructive criticism and offering other card options are much better ways to help someone tweak their deck. Even Green Stompy won a modern daily (pre-cruise days in July 14) and I doubt many would consider this a great deck, just a good meta choice and in that case it was a good deck for the event/week. Whether you call it aggro-control or tempo it doesn't matter, everyone here is trying to come up with the best Jeskai Delver deck for them and for their meta and are looking for advice.
Also situational cards are not inherently bad. They are just situational, hence the name. While these type of cards are often utilized in the sideboard, having access to the correct situational card for an event/meta can often add a ton of power to your deck. Path to Exile is actually not the best in terms of pure tempo as it gives your opponent an additional land, thereby removing tempo, but because it is the best all around option we have as a removal card, it fits in very well with our plan. I do agree that having the wrong situational card in the mainboard in high numbers can cause loses in game one.
In my opinion, boxing one's self into a certain term such as tempo and considered cards only "good", "bad", "situational" can often lead a person to miss out on the creativity needed to actually have an advantage over the meta. Obviously the power of cards differ, but you can never know for sure until you test things. With reward there will always be risk. Having cards that the opponent does not know about or may not have even considered can often be an advantage in a matchup because many players play with a "net deck" in mind. Unknown information is extremely valuable because it can cause a player to play an incorrect line based on knowledge that they do not have or incorrect assumptions they have made. I don't want to come of as being condescending, as I am sure you already know all of this, I am just trying to make a point that by putting peoples choices down without offering another option or just plain saying something is bad can lead some to not take the risks necessary to succeed/grow with an archetype.
With all of that said, I do agree with you that Mantis Rider and Harms Way probably hurt the tempo a little too much. Not the cards themselves, but the number of them used. These cards may be good one of's in some meta's but Mantis is tough to cast and dies to bolt, and harm's way is situational (but not a bad choice at all). I also realize these were choices made due to availability. I also agree that we have to always maintain the fact that Delver is best as a tempo oriented deck. I tinker/test a ton and I can be accused (rightly so) of sometimes getting away from the archetype and need someone like your self to slap some sense into me.
As for the deck, I too play a more midrange version. With the power level of todays cards, a tempo deck does not have to have 60 cards all devoted to just keeping tempo. We now have the luxury of being able to have 2-3 cards in the deck that can allow us to turn a game around in which we have fallen behind. In my opinion, the best options to do so without harming our tempo too much are utility lands and planeswalkers. I play one celestial colonnade, one slayer's stronghold, and 1-2 chandra, pyromasters, depending on the meta. I can't say these cards never harm the tempo because drawing an opening hand with only slayers and colonnade can be a problem, but this is extremely rare. However, I can say that the addition of these cards have won me several games I would have lost otherwise and have helped much more than they have hurt. Where does everyone else fall on this topic?
I'm glad the Jeskai Delver deck is getting it's due now and I'm glad we have so many player's to help each other have the best deck they can.
i'll tone down
Sorry but i wrote that off impulse and failed to express in the right term.
The problem is that my criticism was in fact that the deck was a "pile" = goods cards that doesn't belong together mixed with debateble choice.
I failed too in expressing that narrow reactive card in MD in a "tempo" deck is bad, simply as that, i can't describe it better.
You admit that you play a midrange version, and thats fine, but WUR midrange was a deck before this and delver isn't the best choice (but thats my opinion) for a midrange deck like some other cards (see the UWR midrange thread for reference).
As for giving options to change the deck, i will post my deck.
I really don't think that splashing white just for Lightning Helix is good, especially since you often will be fetching for a shockland to cast it, which defeats the whole point. Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
No problem at all. I figured you just had to post quickly and couldn't say everything you wanted to. I personally like your deck. If you are on the aggro/pure tempo end I think your deck is great. I love Geist of Saint Traft so I would have a hard time not adding him, but at 18-19 lands it gets tough. I might change the two Izzet Charms to Path to Exiles, but other than that, this looks like a solid list. I know most say I wouldn't splash white for just lightning helix, but I think it's worth the splash if you are also sideboarding white cards such as stony silence, leyline of sanctity, wear/tear, etc.
Like I said before, I get in a little trouble with always trying to tinker with new cards, so I do like to see lists that stick to a plan and do it well. I think, especially for MTGO you have a great start. The white also lets you have room at add/remove other threats if you feel like the meta calls for it and you can just remove an izzet charm or a cruise. I would like to see what your sideboard is like as well.
As for the WUR midrange vs WUR Delver debate, they both play very similar cards and were probabaly played similar to the same time. I know Shahar played WUR Delver back in 2012, but I'm sure someone was playing a midrange version then too with Geist. If they were or weren't it doesn't really matter. If the deck has Delver and can play a tempo/aggro game, I consider it a Delver deck. Semantics don't really matter, just results. One of the main reasons I love this type of deck is because someone can play a great aggro/tempo version with success like yourself and others and someone can play a more aggro/control version with success like Valanarch and others. I love to see all the discussion about the best way to go about it.
Another question for everyone that wasn't here before the cruise days- Were you playing WUR Delver before Cruise/Dig? If not, what were you playing?
Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
I never said otherwise.
Was that deck midrange? was packing 6 3cc creatures like you do? Midrange emerged exactly to play the game plan you are trying to play, and without delver...
Actually, that deck was playing Gifts Ungiven and Unburial Rites in the sideboard. And I told you, I am not trying to play Midrange. I am trying to play Aggro Control in the same way that Standard Delver could play Aggro Control.
I'm just not a fan. It seems like the Swiftspear version that is only running 4 white cards in the main would be better off with cheaper cards that work better with Swiftspear and Pyromancer and don't force you to splash a color. You do have a point about the sideboard. If he posts that and it has some good white cards, then I'll be less judgmental.
(disclaimer, i play it on modo).
one... errr.. two words Kor Firewalker.
- L
I am fine with that, I just couldn't judge without actually knowing what is in your sideboard.
I'm really not sure why you have been so negative with your most recent posts. I know you are trying to help with the deck, but positive/constructive critism is typically more well received. I have made a general rule that if anyone starts off with this is a "bad deck" or a "pile" especially when talking about a top 8 deck, I generally disregard anything that comes after that because it insinuates that the author believes they know all there is to know about all cards in all metas. I'm not saying you believe this, I just think constructive criticism and offering other card options are much better ways to help someone tweak their deck. Even Green Stompy won a modern daily (pre-cruise days in July 14) and I doubt many would consider this a great deck, just a good meta choice and in that case it was a good deck for the event/week. Whether you call it aggro-control or tempo it doesn't matter, everyone here is trying to come up with the best Jeskai Delver deck for them and for their meta and are looking for advice.
Also situational cards are not inherently bad. They are just situational, hence the name. While these type of cards are often utilized in the sideboard, having access to the correct situational card for an event/meta can often add a ton of power to your deck. Path to Exile is actually not the best in terms of pure tempo as it gives your opponent an additional land, thereby removing tempo, but because it is the best all around option we have as a removal card, it fits in very well with our plan. I do agree that having the wrong situational card in the mainboard in high numbers can cause loses in game one.
In my opinion, boxing one's self into a certain term such as tempo and considered cards only "good", "bad", "situational" can often lead a person to miss out on the creativity needed to actually have an advantage over the meta. Obviously the power of cards differ, but you can never know for sure until you test things. With reward there will always be risk. Having cards that the opponent does not know about or may not have even considered can often be an advantage in a matchup because many players play with a "net deck" in mind. Unknown information is extremely valuable because it can cause a player to play an incorrect line based on knowledge that they do not have or incorrect assumptions they have made. I don't want to come of as being condescending, as I am sure you already know all of this, I am just trying to make a point that by putting peoples choices down without offering another option or just plain saying something is bad can lead some to not take the risks necessary to succeed/grow with an archetype.
With all of that said, I do agree with you that Mantis Rider and Harms Way probably hurt the tempo a little too much. Not the cards themselves, but the number of them used. These cards may be good one of's in some meta's but Mantis is tough to cast and dies to bolt, and harm's way is situational (but not a bad choice at all). I also realize these were choices made due to availability. I also agree that we have to always maintain the fact that Delver is best as a tempo oriented deck. I tinker/test a ton and I can be accused (rightly so) of sometimes getting away from the archetype and need someone like your self to slap some sense into me.
As for the deck, I too play a more midrange version. With the power level of todays cards, a tempo deck does not have to have 60 cards all devoted to just keeping tempo. We now have the luxury of being able to have 2-3 cards in the deck that can allow us to turn a game around in which we have fallen behind. In my opinion, the best options to do so without harming our tempo too much are utility lands and planeswalkers. I play one celestial colonnade, one slayer's stronghold, and 1-2 chandra, pyromasters, depending on the meta. I can't say these cards never harm the tempo because drawing an opening hand with only slayers and colonnade can be a problem, but this is extremely rare. However, I can say that the addition of these cards have won me several games I would have lost otherwise and have helped much more than they have hurt. Where does everyone else fall on this topic?
I'm glad the Jeskai Delver deck is getting it's due now and I'm glad we have so many player's to help each other have the best deck they can.
i'll tone down
Sorry but i wrote that off impulse and failed to express in the right term.
The problem is that my criticism was in fact that the deck was a "pile" = goods cards that doesn't belong together mixed with debateble choice.
I failed too in expressing that narrow reactive card in MD in a "tempo" deck is bad, simply as that, i can't describe it better.
You admit that you play a midrange version, and thats fine, but WUR midrange was a deck before this and delver isn't the best choice (but thats my opinion) for a midrange deck like some other cards (see the UWR midrange thread for reference).
As for giving options to change the deck, i will post my deck.
I really don't think that splashing white just for Lightning Helix is good, especially since you often will be fetching for a shockland to cast it, which defeats the whole point. Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
No problem at all. I figured you just had to post quickly and couldn't say everything you wanted to. I personally like your deck. If you are on the aggro/pure tempo end I think your deck is great. I love Geist of Saint Traft so I would have a hard time not adding him, but at 18-19 lands it gets tough. I might change the two Izzet Charms to Path to Exiles, but other than that, this looks like a solid list. I know most say I wouldn't splash white for just lightning helix, but I think it's worth the splash if you are also sideboarding white cards such as stony silence, leyline of sanctity, wear/tear, etc.
Like I said before, I get in a little trouble with always trying to tinker with new cards, so I do like to see lists that stick to a plan and do it well. I think, especially for MTGO you have a great start. The white also lets you have room at add/remove other threats if you feel like the meta calls for it and you can just remove an izzet charm or a cruise. I would like to see what your sideboard is like as well.
As for the WUR midrange vs WUR Delver debate, they both play very similar cards and were probabaly played similar to the same time. I know Shahar played WUR Delver back in 2012, but I'm sure someone was playing a midrange version then too with Geist. If they were or weren't it doesn't really matter. If the deck has Delver and can play a tempo/aggro game, I consider it a Delver deck. Semantics don't really matter, just results. One of the main reasons I love this type of deck is because someone can play a great aggro/tempo version with success like yourself and others and someone can play a more aggro/control version with success like Valanarch and others. I love to see all the discussion about the best way to go about it.
Another question for everyone that wasn't here before the cruise days- Were you playing WUR Delver before Cruise/Dig? If not, what were you playing?
As you know, I was kind of here before the Cruise days. I came across this thread with my thousandth post after I saw a cool Isochron Scepter build. I tried to buy it, but then the fetchlands spiked. Instead I continued playing my Midrange Mill deck with Jace's Phantasm and Nihilith before moving onto a budget Blue Moon deck without Cryptics or fetchlands. However, I kept testing the deck and getting more people to post here until last Friday when I bought the deck.
Another question for everyone that wasn't here before the cruise days- Were you playing WUR Delver before Cruise/Dig? If not, what were you playing?
I was considering switching from UR to UWR before Khans. When the fetch reprint was announced, I went for it. That was only a couple weeks before treasure cruise and dig through time were spoiled, so I ended up pretty happy with my decision.
Valanarch- I know you have been here for awhile. Well before the Cruise days.
Evil_Overlord- You definitely made the right choice and you were ahead of most peeps. It sounds like you were already on one of the best decks UR Delver before the spoilers. I think the players that played the deck before are the ones that benefited the most because they already had knowledge and skill playing the deck so they could easily transition into the brave new cruise world.
I always find it interesting to see what others are playing.
As for me, I have always played UWR Delver in some form or another after I picked the game back up in the Innistrad block. I built the Legacy UWR delver after Delver was printed. I found out quickly that I preferred modern over legacy because I love Geist of Saint Traft and I prefer the meta/game play or modern a lot more. I like a little more action on the battlefield. Legacy if fine and I still play sometimes, but it just seemed to be a little to counter/draw oriented. I do miss Jace and Stoneforge Mystic, but I'm glad I got out before True-named Nemisis (I never liked this card from a design standpoint). I even played Modern UWR Delver even during the dreaded Jund with, Deathrite, Bloodbraid Elf, and Lingering Souls days (although it was definitely not the best choice at that point). I tinkered with going to just UR Delver and to Grixis Delver in the past, but always came back to my lightning helix, path to exiles, and geist of saint trafts. I also tinkered with full out UWR midrange without Delver for about month during the Jund days and just missed the inconsistent bugger too much. I'm glad I found this site because everyone has been so helpful in making my deck leaps and bounds better.
What do you guys think of Delay? I think it could work in the more aggro oriented builds. I know you don't get the card from Remand, but it seems like a cool counter. This card seems to be better than Mana Leak in some aggro/tempo builds. I will have to give it a try. Let me know what you guys think?
What do you guys think of Delay? I think it could work in the more aggro oriented builds. I know you don't get the card from Remand, but it seems like a cool counter. This card seems to be better than Mana Leak in some aggro/tempo builds. I will have to give it a try. Let me know what you guys think?
Remand is a lot better. There is nothing better in Magic than drawing cards.
So lately I've been thinking about boros charm lately and like it's ability to go to the face, protect a geist in combat, and protect a team against board wipes. This made me want to try what I thought was a more aggressive build and I came up with this
I swapped Pyromancer for swiftspear and probe for burn. Some of the other spots may be wrong now too. Maybe vapor snag for path to exile and mana leak for remand to make sure I can protect my creatures from a kill spell not just stall it. jeskai charm was added for the same reason as boros charm. It can protect geist early then I can snap it back late game to close out.
Does this look like it makes any sense? Anyone have any suggestions?
So lately I've been thinking about boros charm lately and like it's ability to go to the face, protect a geist in combat, and protect a team against board wipes. This made me want to try what I thought was a more aggressive build and I came up with this
I swapped Pyromancer for swiftspear and probe for burn. Some of the other spots may be wrong now too. Maybe vapor snag for path to exile and mana leak for remand to make sure I can protect my creatures from a kill spell not just stall it. jeskai charm was added for the same reason as boros charm. It can protect geist early then I can snap it back late game to close out.
Does this look like it makes any sense? Anyone have any suggestions?
I like some of the cards, but as a whole it could use some work. Jeskai Charm is at its best with Young Pyromancer, not Swiftspear. Gitaxian Probe is great with Swiftspear. I'd probably bring back the Pyromancers and Probes if you are going to run Boros Charm and Jeskai Charm, both of which work much better with many creatures.
Yea I totally agree with you on that.
I completely agree. However, Loooooooooooooo was saying that I am running a bad WUR Midrange deck with no real identity and bad situational reactive cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It was hard enough cutting cards to go up to 21 lands (I had to cut the 4th Snapcaster Mage). I'd need more for 4-drops and that is a step that I am unwilling to take. Also, Brimaz can tangle with most ground creatures other than Batterskull, Primeval Titan, Goyf, and Obstinate Baloth anyways.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't think you're going to lose the game from them 1-for-1'ing your threats when you can just refill with Cruise + burn them out.
I think YP is great in a deck where you're fighting to keep your threats alive (with your harm's way and such) so their absence confuses me. But, i mean you put up results with it, so i can't really argue.
I do think it's a little beyond the pale from what i'd consider a 'stock' UWR Delver. And i can't agree that your slots are optimal.
Mantis Rider is intriguing, though. But, playing the typical 12 creature package + 2 Snapcasters has never made me feel threat light; at no point in time have i felt i couldn't close out a game.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 drop dudes in general, but i play 19 lands so there's that.
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The problem is against decks like WUR that are playing counterspells and lifegain. It is difficult to burn them out without creatures. However, Harm's Way was primarily there to fight Burn and Delver, not as a protection spell. It just has many uses.
Harm's Way doesn't save Young Pyromancer from Bolt and I have never been a fan of playing Pyromancer without playing Gitaxian Probe. I don't have spare slots for Probe, so I chose not to run Pyromancer. It also is much worse against Forked Bolt, which sees quite a bit of play.
I agree that some of them aren't.
I love the 3-drop guys. They are just so much more powerful than their cheaper counterparts.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
i'll tone down
Sorry but i wrote that off impulse and failed to express in the right term.
The problem is that my criticism was in fact that the deck was a "pile" = goods cards that doesn't belong together mixed with debateble choice.
I failed too in expressing that narrow reactive card in MD in a "tempo" deck is bad, simply as that, i can't describe it better.
You admit that you play a midrange version, and thats fine, but WUR midrange was a deck before this and delver isn't the best choice (but thats my opinion) for a midrange deck like some other cards (see the UWR midrange thread for reference).
As for giving options to change the deck, i will post my deck.
4 Delver of secrets
4 monastery swiftspear
4 young pyromancer
2 snapcaster mage
Spells
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 serum visions
4 treasure cruise
4 gitaxian probe
1 electrolyze
3 Remand
2 Izzet charm
1 spell snare
1 spell pierce
3 Arid mesa
4 Scalding tarn
3 flooded strand
3 steam vents
1 sacred foundry
2 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 plain
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I really don't think that splashing white just for Lightning Helix is good, especially since you often will be fetching for a shockland to cast it, which defeats the whole point. Also, WUR Delver was a deck before WUR Midrange. WUR Midrange emerged in early 2013 if I remember correctly while WUR Delver got good in mid-2012.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
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I'm just not a fan. It seems like the Swiftspear version that is only running 4 white cards in the main would be better off with cheaper cards that work better with Swiftspear and Pyromancer and don't force you to splash a color. You do have a point about the sideboard. If he posts that and it has some good white cards, then I'll be less judgmental.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And the full-art promo looks amazing.
I don't see how anyone could exclude it in an UWR list.
You're going to have to dig a little deeper than "I'm not a fan"...
His SB cards likely include some number of Path, Stony Silence, Wear//Tear. Which is to say, he's likely utilizing the fact he has access to White mana in his deckbuilding. To assume otherwise is silly.
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I never said otherwise.
Was that deck midrange? was packing 6 3cc creatures like you do? Midrange emerged exactly to play the game plan you are trying to play, and without delver...
Haters gonna hate man.
(disclaimer, i play it on modo).
one... errr.. two words Kor Firewalker.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
No problem at all. I figured you just had to post quickly and couldn't say everything you wanted to. I personally like your deck. If you are on the aggro/pure tempo end I think your deck is great. I love Geist of Saint Traft so I would have a hard time not adding him, but at 18-19 lands it gets tough. I might change the two Izzet Charms to Path to Exiles, but other than that, this looks like a solid list. I know most say I wouldn't splash white for just lightning helix, but I think it's worth the splash if you are also sideboarding white cards such as stony silence, leyline of sanctity, wear/tear, etc.
Like I said before, I get in a little trouble with always trying to tinker with new cards, so I do like to see lists that stick to a plan and do it well. I think, especially for MTGO you have a great start. The white also lets you have room at add/remove other threats if you feel like the meta calls for it and you can just remove an izzet charm or a cruise. I would like to see what your sideboard is like as well.
As for the WUR midrange vs WUR Delver debate, they both play very similar cards and were probabaly played similar to the same time. I know Shahar played WUR Delver back in 2012, but I'm sure someone was playing a midrange version then too with Geist. If they were or weren't it doesn't really matter. If the deck has Delver and can play a tempo/aggro game, I consider it a Delver deck. Semantics don't really matter, just results. One of the main reasons I love this type of deck is because someone can play a great aggro/tempo version with success like yourself and others and someone can play a more aggro/control version with success like Valanarch and others. I love to see all the discussion about the best way to go about it.
Another question for everyone that wasn't here before the cruise days- Were you playing WUR Delver before Cruise/Dig? If not, what were you playing?
Actually, that deck was playing Gifts Ungiven and Unburial Rites in the sideboard. And I told you, I am not trying to play Midrange. I am trying to play Aggro Control in the same way that Standard Delver could play Aggro Control.
I am fine with that, I just couldn't judge without actually knowing what is in your sideboard.
As you know, I was kind of here before the Cruise days. I came across this thread with my thousandth post after I saw a cool Isochron Scepter build. I tried to buy it, but then the fetchlands spiked. Instead I continued playing my Midrange Mill deck with Jace's Phantasm and Nihilith before moving onto a budget Blue Moon deck without Cryptics or fetchlands. However, I kept testing the deck and getting more people to post here until last Friday when I bought the deck.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I was considering switching from UR to UWR before Khans. When the fetch reprint was announced, I went for it. That was only a couple weeks before treasure cruise and dig through time were spoiled, so I ended up pretty happy with my decision.
Evil_Overlord- You definitely made the right choice and you were ahead of most peeps. It sounds like you were already on one of the best decks UR Delver before the spoilers. I think the players that played the deck before are the ones that benefited the most because they already had knowledge and skill playing the deck so they could easily transition into the brave new cruise world.
I always find it interesting to see what others are playing.
As for me, I have always played UWR Delver in some form or another after I picked the game back up in the Innistrad block. I built the Legacy UWR delver after Delver was printed. I found out quickly that I preferred modern over legacy because I love Geist of Saint Traft and I prefer the meta/game play or modern a lot more. I like a little more action on the battlefield. Legacy if fine and I still play sometimes, but it just seemed to be a little to counter/draw oriented. I do miss Jace and Stoneforge Mystic, but I'm glad I got out before True-named Nemisis (I never liked this card from a design standpoint). I even played Modern UWR Delver even during the dreaded Jund with, Deathrite, Bloodbraid Elf, and Lingering Souls days (although it was definitely not the best choice at that point). I tinkered with going to just UR Delver and to Grixis Delver in the past, but always came back to my lightning helix, path to exiles, and geist of saint trafts. I also tinkered with full out UWR midrange without Delver for about month during the Jund days and just missed the inconsistent bugger too much. I'm glad I found this site because everyone has been so helpful in making my deck leaps and bounds better.
Remand is a lot better. There is nothing better in Magic than drawing cards.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
4x boros charm
4x delver of secrets
2x Dig through time
4x flooded strand
2x forked bolt
3x geist of saint traft
2x hallowed fountain
2x island
2x jeskai charm
4x lightning bolt
4x lightning helix
4x monastery swiftspear
2x mountain
1x plains
4x remand
1x sacred foundry
1x seachrome coast
4x serum visions
4x snapcaster mage
2x steam vents
I swapped Pyromancer for swiftspear and probe for burn. Some of the other spots may be wrong now too. Maybe vapor snag for path to exile and mana leak for remand to make sure I can protect my creatures from a kill spell not just stall it. jeskai charm was added for the same reason as boros charm. It can protect geist early then I can snap it back late game to close out.
Does this look like it makes any sense? Anyone have any suggestions?
I like some of the cards, but as a whole it could use some work. Jeskai Charm is at its best with Young Pyromancer, not Swiftspear. Gitaxian Probe is great with Swiftspear. I'd probably bring back the Pyromancers and Probes if you are going to run Boros Charm and Jeskai Charm, both of which work much better with many creatures.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.