I agree with you 99% other than the fact that an infinite number of 0/3 Deceiver Exarch wont win a game. But yeah, that's just splitting a real fine hair. Also, a point in addition to what you said Cryptic Command is a very real card.
You know what, outerspace, you are absolutely right. I forgot that it takes away from the power of the creature, too (so relevant). But just to make my point even better... since the Twin copies are tokens, Illness does the same thing For 4 times less mana.
I think I'm done here. Clearly a few folks know everything, build perfect decks, play perfect games, and need no other input or feedback. Be sure to post your picture holding the trophy you win with your deck. It must be a heavy burden to be so awesome.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
I wasn't saying there was any perfect build, and I wasnt shutting down any input or feedback. It was just a little tongue-in-cheek humor which was actually referencing Illness not NoSB.
Necroplasm seems hilarious as an option. Not sure if it will do any better than other options but why not try it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I think I'm done here. Clearly a few folks know everything, build perfect decks, play perfect games, and need no other input or feedback. Be sure to post your picture holding the trophy you win with your deck. It must be a heavy burden to be so awesome.
As I just showed on the previous few pages, it's easy to give input and feedback, so long as it's done in a way that is supported by testing and not theory. I think there is a lot of resistance to theory in this thread because most theories have been said and resaid a hundred times. Testing gets us into new territory, at least.
I'm itching to try out this deck for quite some time now, and will most likely be bringing it to my next Modern paper event. For your consideration, this is the maindeck I plan on building:
the matagame at my store is still quite diverse at this point, but one drops are a thing for most people (Boggles, Zoo, Soul Sisters, maybe a Delver deck here and there), so I was thinking to try playing Smallpox against that field. It doesn't exactly provide card advantage (at it's best it isn't card disadvantage since both players are down the same number of cards) but I want to give it a try to see how good this deck can be at resource denial.
from what I've seen in this thread Disfigure seems to be the go-to removal over Dismember thanks to the popularity of aggro strategies. Even so, I felt I needed something to deal with resolved larger threats like Thundermaw Hellkite or something along those lines. Having Liliana does help somewhat in those situations, but having some kind of backup plan seems sound.
Tombstalker is something that got me renewed interest in this deck after the raise of popularity of TC decks. On paper it seems much better then Pack Rat on the basis that it is a much less resource intensive threat. My initial consideration for that slot was Gravecrawler but I will give the demon a shot based on this threads positive feedback about Tombstalker.
the sideboard is a work in progress, but my last draft looked something like this:
3 Ghost Quarter - Tron, manlands, possibly Scapeshift (not sure if it would work though)
3 Darkblast - various incarnations of fast aggro, most notably Affinity
2 Shadow of Doubt - Tron, Scapeshift, Pod
4 Leyline of the Void - graveyard based combo (probably wouldn't bring it in vs. delver but need to test that)
3 Pithing Needle - kind of a misc. (again, an anti-Tron card mostly) choice but it might be replaced by more effective cards (probably Damnation to help vs. token decks and aggro decks that don't just fold to Darkblast)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
It looks like a solid list, but I would recommend a couple of changes:
- You can't support enough delve for both Tombstalker (x3) and Murderous Cut (x2). Especially since you've cut some of the one-drops (which also happen to be the cards that make 8Rack possible). Whether or not doing that was a good idea I dare not comment, but they are the easiest (and most beneficial) way to feed the graveyard.
- Smallpox and Raven's Crime don't work too well together. The reason for that is that Smallpox deprives you of lands, so any that you draw will have to be put onto the battlefield, making Raven's Crime obsolete. Of course, between poxing, you can sneak in a couple of Crimes, but their efficiency is reduced to the point where it doesn't make sense to have so many of them. Keep in mind most decks you'll be facing have either mana dorks or cantrips, so they will recover from the pox faster than you. It's also the reason I (and other people) believe it's a card that needs to have an engine running with it to make it work most efficiently (most often that's Life from the Loam).
About the sideboard - I like Shadow of Doubt, although I think it doesn't work in small quantities in decks that aren't "draw-go" (hypercontrol decks with a lot of draw power that can find any card reliably fast... also they play Snappy). I know a lot of people here are in favour of Pithing Needle so I won't say anything else about it. I don't think 8Rack needs to play graveyard hate and I've stated many times that Leylines are not competitive cards... but if you think there will be graveyard-based decks, I won't go so far as to say that it's a bad choice.
Btw, Ghost Quarterdoes work. There are a couple of scenarios and it will depend on how many Mountains he has played before resolving the Scapeshift. In many cases, the Scapeshift player will find two Valakuts and 6 Mountains, casting it on 8 lands. This will usually be all the mountains he can find, so if you Ghost Quarter one of them, the other 10 triggers for the 5 mountains left won't resolve because of the "intervening if" clause. However, the two triggers from the land you blew will still "see" 5 other mountains. Of course, there are many different scenarios, but generally Ghost Quarter isn't very good against Scapeshift. But it can work.
With NoSB out darkblast takes out swiftspear or nivmagus elemental, as well as a flipped delver (does that count?) Illness is narrow tech, Night of Soul's Betrayal is global.
Are you seriously saying that you want to play a 2BB enchantment in order for your Darkblast do deal 2 damage when Magic has Disfigure? Or do you suggest it's a coincidental bonus from playing a FOUR MANA ENCHANTMENT to kill the 1/1 from Turn 1 that has been a 3/2 since Turn 2 and has already hit you 3 times? It also doesn't do jack **** against Deceiver Exarch, will never resolve against Fae and nobody else than (some of) us plays Pack Rat.
I don't think you people understand what "deal 1 damage to all creatures" means. Let me translate it for you - "sideboard against token-based decks". That's it. There is no hidden power, there is no secret Plan from R&D to make three creatures in Modern get into Darkblast range, it's not an undiscovered hidden gem that could break the Modern meta like Soul Spike, there is not extra value. Black was supposed to have a card against goblin tokens in Legacy and Lingering Souls in Modern and Wizards realized it's stupid to pay 4 mana for that effect, so they printed Illness. That's it, end of story.
Illness is not very good in my opinion. I do not think it is a good sideboard card. Ratchet bombo deals with non copy tokens as easily and can do other stuff too.
However, I wanted to point out that the stuff in the quote above reveals a certain (and complete) lack of understanding/appreciation of NoSB in Legacy.
It is NOT stupid to pay four for the effect- it makes nearly every pox build in Legacy runs it in the past year, including those without Rituals or Diamonds. Black already has a card for goblins (and elves, D and T etc.) in Legacy- Engineered Plague. NoSB has been a pox staple for a reasonably long time- probably about 18 months- and Plague for years. Unless you want to enter "Tool-of-the-year 2014" I would avoid telling the Legacy players in the Established that it is "stupid" to pay four for the effect. Remembering that Legacy is actually less creature orientated than Modern, the card still makes the cut there, with good reason.
NoSB makes exarch a 0/3, and the token copies will also be 0/3. Not sure how a 0/3 exarch is an issue.
One thing I also note is that the Legacy players are rather more polite in their discussions than some of the discussion here.
I would avoid using the adjective "stupid" in a serious context referring to a card- it becomes a de facto insult to those who use it. It may not be ideal for Modern, because the format is different to Legacy, but glib and condescending statements about cards are not the way forward, as they can be easily interpreted as attacks on people who do not share the opinion of the originator.
On a separate and more constructive note I have been extensively testing one match with traditional 8 rack with bridges and One with Bwg 8 rack/small pox/loam variant vs UR Cruise delver. Sadly I found no significant difference between the two, and neither had a decent game one. I did not proceed to test G2 due to the g1 being poor. I suspect I will just look towards other decks in the immediate future, especially with pPTQs in 2015.
- Legacy decks (especially Pox) run Engineered Plague, not NoSB, because it's a strict upgrade to it (because of the situations/decks you would bring it in against) and because of decks like Elves. You completely ignored how I was talking about goblin TOKENS (you may also know it as Empty the Warrens), against which Illness is a superior choice.
- Not sure how a 1/4 Exarch and an infinite number of 0/3s is an issue, too. If you get beaten by the 20-turn clock of a 1/4, you deserved it.
- Everybody is more polite than modern players, especially the ones in this thread (although mostly me). It's just the type of format that attracts some of the best, but also many of the worst people.
No, it does not.
This list is a list from mtg Top 8 over four years nearly. NoSB has been used in the past 12 to 18 months in successful pox lists. How or why your list does not include for example Everitt or Klein's SCG finish in the past twelve months is beyond me. Both used it in the main, and one at least had EP in the board as well. Presuming you have not removed these decks, it shows one of the problems with Mtg Top 8. These were SCG finishes but in reality Mtg Top 8 misses most of the relevant European events in particular, where NoSB has done well in large events, allowing for the fact that many of the decks that have run it are not tier one and so data is relatively patchy.
I was not trying to start a debate or an argument. I was not commenting on your comment or your opinions on illness at all whatsoever, save as to add my opinion that it is narrow and lacks the flexibility of other cards, which is rather beside the main point of my post. Frankly, your post contains the phrase that it is stupid to pay four for NoSB. I was simply pointing out that this sort of comment, regardless of context is unwise as it is open to misinterpretation and also patently untrue.
edit Matt Everitt's Providence Legacy Open- 12th place.
Spells (29)
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Spinning Darkness
2 Toxic Deluge
edit II
Played by Kyle Klein. Top8 in SCG Invitational Qualifier - Cayce, SC (Aug-2014).
Maindeck (60)
Creature [1]
1 Nether Spirit
Artifact [4]
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
Instant [4]
4 Dark Ritual
Sorcery [21]
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Enchantment [2] 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void
Planeswalker [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil
Land [24]
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Please, choose a store to buy All cards in the deck:
From $700.29 | CardHoarder > From $1169 | TCGplayer >
Sideboard
•2 Relic of Progenitus
•1 Helm of Obedience
•2 Ratchet Bomb
•3 Engineered Plague
•3 Leyline of the Void
•1 Chains of Mephistopheles
•1 Surgical Extraction •1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
•1 The Abyss
I play this deck in paper so I will admit I do not have the extensive play testing that mtgo can provide. I play at a few local stores that have mostly shifted to an aggro meta consisting of burn, UR Delver, Affinity, TarmoTwin, and then Tron, Birthing Pod, Amulet/Titan, and BGx decks to round it out. Needless to say I am only getting by with moderate results. I've completely had to change up several key cards we once used to put in more targeted removal and pressure for our opponents.
I am testing Phyrexian Obliterator because of less spot removal compared with burn removal in the meta and because he is a house. So far, I've been liking the results as he provides a clock and can give us some time to stall with rack/afflication. I chose to take out Ensnaring Bridge for a set of Disgure to control the early game as I was finding Bride to be lackluster right now.
If Tombstalker is now worth inclusion, perhaps it's time to use Tomb of Urami as well. Remember the downsides are mitigated somewhat by Urborg, Mutavault, and Dakmor.
Which downsides do you mean? The life loss, or losing all your lands?
The way I see it is it still breaks the "nothing greater than 3 cmc" rule. It requires 5 lands in play to make a 5/5. Not saying it's bad, just curious to hear what you think about that restriction.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I mean, after you sac all your lands to it, if you draw one land youre more or less back in the game... but still, that seems like a steep cost... I understand that it also helps fuel delve, but idk if I would be willing to go that deep...
You generally will only activate it when you don't need any more land, or you have access to land (in hand, or Dakmor Salvage in play). That or the creature will delay you long enough to get more land. Didn't think about the Tombstalker synergy - that's nice, too.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
As I just showed on the previous few pages, it's easy to give input and feedback, so long as it's done in a way that is supported by testing and not theory. I think there is a lot of resistance to theory in this thread because most theories have been said and resaid a hundred times. Testing gets us into new territory, at least.
I'm itching to try out this deck for quite some time now, and will most likely be bringing it to my next Modern paper event. For your consideration, this is the maindeck I plan on building:
3 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Tombstalker
3 Disfigure
4 Smallpox
2 Murderous Cut
4 Wrench Mind
4 Raven's Crime
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
To clarify on some particular card choices:
3 Darkblast - various incarnations of fast aggro, most notably Affinity
2 Shadow of Doubt - Tron, Scapeshift, Pod
4 Leyline of the Void - graveyard based combo (probably wouldn't bring it in vs. delver but need to test that)
3 Pithing Needle - kind of a misc. (again, an anti-Tron card mostly) choice but it might be replaced by more effective cards (probably Damnation to help vs. token decks and aggro decks that don't just fold to Darkblast)
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
- You can't support enough delve for both Tombstalker (x3) and Murderous Cut (x2). Especially since you've cut some of the one-drops (which also happen to be the cards that make 8Rack possible). Whether or not doing that was a good idea I dare not comment, but they are the easiest (and most beneficial) way to feed the graveyard.
- Smallpox and Raven's Crime don't work too well together. The reason for that is that Smallpox deprives you of lands, so any that you draw will have to be put onto the battlefield, making Raven's Crime obsolete. Of course, between poxing, you can sneak in a couple of Crimes, but their efficiency is reduced to the point where it doesn't make sense to have so many of them. Keep in mind most decks you'll be facing have either mana dorks or cantrips, so they will recover from the pox faster than you. It's also the reason I (and other people) believe it's a card that needs to have an engine running with it to make it work most efficiently (most often that's Life from the Loam).
About the sideboard - I like Shadow of Doubt, although I think it doesn't work in small quantities in decks that aren't "draw-go" (hypercontrol decks with a lot of draw power that can find any card reliably fast... also they play Snappy). I know a lot of people here are in favour of Pithing Needle so I won't say anything else about it. I don't think 8Rack needs to play graveyard hate and I've stated many times that Leylines are not competitive cards... but if you think there will be graveyard-based decks, I won't go so far as to say that it's a bad choice.
Btw, Ghost Quarter does work. There are a couple of scenarios and it will depend on how many Mountains he has played before resolving the Scapeshift. In many cases, the Scapeshift player will find two Valakuts and 6 Mountains, casting it on 8 lands. This will usually be all the mountains he can find, so if you Ghost Quarter one of them, the other 10 triggers for the 5 mountains left won't resolve because of the "intervening if" clause. However, the two triggers from the land you blew will still "see" 5 other mountains. Of course, there are many different scenarios, but generally Ghost Quarter isn't very good against Scapeshift. But it can work.
Illness is not very good in my opinion. I do not think it is a good sideboard card. Ratchet bombo deals with non copy tokens as easily and can do other stuff too.
However, I wanted to point out that the stuff in the quote above reveals a certain (and complete) lack of understanding/appreciation of NoSB in Legacy.
It is NOT stupid to pay four for the effect- it makes nearly every pox build in Legacy runs it in the past year, including those without Rituals or Diamonds. Black already has a card for goblins (and elves, D and T etc.) in Legacy- Engineered Plague. NoSB has been a pox staple for a reasonably long time- probably about 18 months- and Plague for years. Unless you want to enter "Tool-of-the-year 2014" I would avoid telling the Legacy players in the Established that it is "stupid" to pay four for the effect. Remembering that Legacy is actually less creature orientated than Modern, the card still makes the cut there, with good reason.
NoSB makes exarch a 0/3, and the token copies will also be 0/3. Not sure how a 0/3 exarch is an issue.
One thing I also note is that the Legacy players are rather more polite in their discussions than some of the discussion here.
I would avoid using the adjective "stupid" in a serious context referring to a card- it becomes a de facto insult to those who use it. It may not be ideal for Modern, because the format is different to Legacy, but glib and condescending statements about cards are not the way forward, as they can be easily interpreted as attacks on people who do not share the opinion of the originator.
On a separate and more constructive note I have been extensively testing one match with traditional 8 rack with bridges and One with Bwg 8 rack/small pox/loam variant vs UR Cruise delver. Sadly I found no significant difference between the two, and neither had a decent game one. I did not proceed to test G2 due to the g1 being poor. I suspect I will just look towards other decks in the immediate future, especially with pPTQs in 2015.
- Illness in the Ranks is a constant effect, while you only get one clear per Ratchet Bomb, not to mention it costs more.
- Legacy decks (especially Pox) run Engineered Plague, not NoSB, because it's a strict upgrade to it (because of the situations/decks you would bring it in against) and because of decks like Elves. You completely ignored how I was talking about goblin TOKENS (you may also know it as Empty the Warrens), against which Illness is a superior choice.
- Not sure how a 1/4 Exarch and an infinite number of 0/3s is an issue, too. If you get beaten by the 20-turn clock of a 1/4, you deserved it.
- Everybody is more polite than modern players, especially the ones in this thread (although mostly me). It's just the type of format that attracts some of the best, but also many of the worst people.
Oh, and just btw, here's a link that nullifies your entire SoNB premise, making your entire comment obsolete: http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=88&f=LE&meta=16
This list is a list from mtg Top 8 over four years nearly. NoSB has been used in the past 12 to 18 months in successful pox lists. How or why your list does not include for example Everitt or Klein's SCG finish in the past twelve months is beyond me. Both used it in the main, and one at least had EP in the board as well. Presuming you have not removed these decks, it shows one of the problems with Mtg Top 8. These were SCG finishes but in reality Mtg Top 8 misses most of the relevant European events in particular, where NoSB has done well in large events, allowing for the fact that many of the decks that have run it are not tier one and so data is relatively patchy.
I was not trying to start a debate or an argument. I was not commenting on your comment or your opinions on illness at all whatsoever, save as to add my opinion that it is narrow and lacks the flexibility of other cards, which is rather beside the main point of my post. Frankly, your post contains the phrase that it is stupid to pay four for NoSB. I was simply pointing out that this sort of comment, regardless of context is unwise as it is open to misinterpretation and also patently untrue.
edit Matt Everitt's Providence Legacy Open- 12th place.
Creatures (2)
2 Nether Spirit
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (25)
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (29)
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 Nether Void
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Spinning Darkness
2 Toxic Deluge
edit II
Played by Kyle Klein. Top8 in SCG Invitational Qualifier - Cayce, SC (Aug-2014).
Maindeck (60)
Creature [1]
1 Nether Spirit
Artifact [4]
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
Instant [4]
4 Dark Ritual
Sorcery [21]
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Innocent Blood
1 Black Sun's Zenith
Enchantment [2]
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Nether Void
Planeswalker [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil
Land [24]
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Please, choose a store to buy All cards in the deck:
From $700.29 | CardHoarder > From $1169 | TCGplayer >
Sideboard
•2 Relic of Progenitus
•1 Helm of Obedience
•2 Ratchet Bomb
•3 Engineered Plague
•3 Leyline of the Void
•1 Chains of Mephistopheles
•1 Surgical Extraction
•1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
•1 The Abyss
15 Cards total
Lands
14x Swamp
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Mutavault
1x Dakmore Salvage
Enchants & Artifacts
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
Plainswalkers
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Wrench Mind
Instant
1x Darkblast
1x Murderous Cut
4x Disfigure
1x Doom Blade/Slaughter Pact
Creatures
3x Phyrexian Obliterator
Sideboard
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Torpor Orb
3x Grafdigger Cage
2x Drown in Sorrow
I am testing Phyrexian Obliterator because of less spot removal compared with burn removal in the meta and because he is a house. So far, I've been liking the results as he provides a clock and can give us some time to stall with rack/afflication. I chose to take out Ensnaring Bridge for a set of Disgure to control the early game as I was finding Bride to be lackluster right now.
1 This
1 is
1 a
1 test
1 to
1 see
1 if
1 the
1 "/deck"
1 tag
1 is
1 still
1 working
1 Why
1 the
1 hell
1 is
1 everybody
1 suddenly
1 posting
1 lists
1 without
1 the
1 /deck
1 tag
1 ?
The way I see it is it still breaks the "nothing greater than 3 cmc" rule. It requires 5 lands in play to make a 5/5. Not saying it's bad, just curious to hear what you think about that restriction.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
It's a land so it doesn't really matter.