Yeah. Removing Bob might do it, but then again, Bob really makes this deck work, without card draw, it soon reaches top deck mode and loses a lot of steam. If you suddenly get Wear // Tear 'ed , you're gone.
You could try out Seeker of the Way instead of Kor Firewalker. Also I think 8 fetch lands and 3 shock lands are enough. I run 2 Isolated Chapel which have been great.
Not sure, its prone to early removal before he has done anything and you have to actually attack and hit for him to return something. Can be great, IF you get to equip him, IF on an open field, IF... Many conditions.
IMHO, in Modern, the effect must be there when it 'enters the battlefield', or something with protection. Otherwise, you are almost into Delver field where you need to make your deck revolve around making sure your threat connects and stays in play.
So I tested by deck out at my LGS and the results were mediocre.
Splinter Twin 0-2
I lost both games to infinity creature combo. Every hand disrupt and spot removal I played got countered the first match. 2nd match went well until he drew Blood Moon. Long story short, I had no white mana on the field and didn't draw any white mana for 9 turns.
Tron 2-0
First match I out-aggroed him using tokens, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold. 2nd match went the same but I drew early into stony silence and he just sat there until he died.
Treasure Cruise Burn 1-2
In the first match I barely outraced him with hand disrupts, tokens, and Sorin. I switched in crusaders for Kor Firewalker but only drew 1 for each of the last 2 games (that I lost). He skullcracked me when I was low, topdecked treasure cruise, and proceeded to hit me with 2 burn spells.
Hey I'm a BW Tokens midrange player, and since tomorrow I'm getting my Bobs playset, I want to switch to Deadguy Ale. I already tasted the explosive an unanswered Pack Rat can be, and I'd love to use it as a goyf.
You have 2 choices with the rat. Either you drop it turn 2 and see how it goes, or you go grindy and drop it turn 5. If it resolves, it's instant madness, cause it's gonna stay there for real, or is gonna trade 2/3 for one, which is amazing. Either they die to it, or they run out of gas because of it. Remember, IF it resolves and IF it survives (if cast on T2).
I'm playing with the idea of using swords, but since I don't own any, and I do own some Sorin, Solemn Visitor I'm sticking with him (also because I'm running Bitterblossom). He's the master of Tokens, insane synergy with the rat, blossom and Hero of Bladehold. If a non responded Bladehold is 90% of the times a sealed game, a following Sorin is 180%.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Nice. Not a bad record. I hate playing against pod. They're so resilient. Have the Stony Silence been helping you in that matchup at all? I always hesitate to bring it in.
Also, I noticed you're still running the full set of Bobs. I'm in the same camp, but I keep hearing that he is really bad right now. I would love to get people's opinions on this. Part of me feels like it's just overblown from the MTGO meta and in paper he's still pretty good.
You could try out Seeker of the Way instead of Kor Firewalker. Also I think 8 fetch lands and 3 shock lands are enough. I run 2 Isolated Chapel which have been great.
Not sure, its prone to early removal before he has done anything and you have to actually attack and hit for him to return something. Can be great, IF you get to equip him, IF on an open field, IF... Many conditions.
IMHO, in Modern, the effect must be there when it 'enters the battlefield', or something with protection. Otherwise, you are almost into Delver field where you need to make your deck revolve around making sure your threat connects and stays in play.
Yeah, you might be right. The problem is there are no such cards in B/W that are cheap enough. Brimaz, King of Oreskos might be good enough but it's double white and costs three. Blade Splicer is kind of good but mostly with blink-effects. Seeker is at least a threat that the opponent has to deal with soon and I run a lot of discard (4 Inquisition of Kozilek, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Liliana of the Veil) in my Seeker build which both lets me fight for it's survival in the early game and triggers him after that.
@KudosPhil Have you had a chance to play test it much? My initial reaction would be that, with most of your threats being 2 ofs, your games are going to be really inconsistent. Has that been the case for you? Also, I would cut the Hero's Downfall and the Utter End and run 2 Smother in their place. Your 3 Path and the pact should be able to hit anything Smother can't and your hand disruption should take care of planeswalkers. If you are worried about being caught without an answer to non creature permanents Celestial Purge is great. It gets pretty much anything important that your removal and discard doesn't. Good luck at the pPTQ.
Guys i'm tryng Phyrexian Arena lately, because i run a list with Elspeth, Sorin, Swords and Crusaders (and one baneslayer). With this mana curve it's amaizing! I can totaly keep up the lifeloss, it's harly removable...it's not Bob, but i'm really happy with it!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
currently the night whispers is the best draw we can use, easy mana to cast, instant impact on game and low life cost
I've heard Treasure Cruise is an ok draw card , so I decided to splash it instead of constantly getting beat by it. Here's the list I'm planning to test. Taking it to a local tournament next week. If folks are interested I'll provide results!
currently the night whispers is the best draw we can use, easy mana to cast, instant impact on game and low life cost
I've heard Treasure Cruise is an ok draw card , so I decided to splash it instead of constantly getting beat by it. Here's the list I'm planning to test. Taking it to a local tournament next week. If folks are interested I'll provide results!
Also, what does everyone think about Monastery Mentor? In a deck with discard to protect him from removal and enough noncreature spells he could fulfill a role similar to that of Pack Rat.
I totaly think Monastery Mentor could have a spot in the deck. Seems really good with all the discard and removal spells aswell as Lingering Souls. We just need a cheap instant that gains enough value on it's own so that we can play it to protect the Mentor and get a little two-for-one action. I'm a big fan of Darkblast and Zealous Persecution myself but they might be too situational. Also if Monastery Mentor is to replace Pack Rat, Honor of the Pure could be a thing.
I totaly think Monastery Mentor could have a spot in the deck. Seems really good with all the discard and removal spells aswell as Lingering Souls. We just need a cheap instant that gains enough value on it's own so that we can play it to protect the Mentor and get a little two-for-one action. I'm a big fan of Darkblast and Zealous Persecution myself but they might be too situational. Also if Monastery Mentor is to replace Pack Rat, Honor of the Pure could be a thing.
I was thinking of it more as a Brimaz replacement. Having 8 Pack Rat equivalents would be an amazing trump in the midrange matchups.
You cant' replace Pack Rat with the mentor, they have just different role in the deck. Otherwise i'm not playng Brimaz, (i'am still on Crusaders+sword), but i guess is better use 3 manas for Brimaz (so a out-of-bolt creature), than a 2/2 that put a 1/1 token that grow for cheap spell. Mather of fact we dont' play a lot of instant speed spells.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
You cant' replace Pack Rat with the mentor, they have just different role in the deck. Otherwise i'm not playng Brimaz, (i'am still on Crusaders+sword), but i guess is better use 3 manas for Brimaz (so a out-of-bolt creature), than a 2/2 that put a 1/1 token that grow for cheap spell. Mather of fact we dont' play a lot of instant speed spells.
Who says that they have to be instant speed? Discard into Mentor into Lingering Souls, Liliana, or a removal spell, is still pretty good.
Tournament report from a PTQQ today (Made T4), a bit different take on the deck as I have been experimenting with many things will have comments after report, but first my list. Sorry not good at formatting could use help with that.
Lands:
4x Marsh Flats
4x Godless Shrine
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Arid Mesa
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Fetid Heath
2x Tectonic Edge
5x Plains
4x Swamp
Creatures
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Blade Splicer
1x Brimaz
3x Resoration Angel
2x Hero of Bladehold
Non Creature Spells
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Night's Whisper
1x Victim of Night
4x Path to Exile
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
Sideboard
3x Kor Firewalker
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stoney Silence
2x Sundering Growth
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Batterskull
1x Doom Blade
1x Wrath of God
1x Timley Reinforcements
1x Zealous Persecution
Tourney
Rd1 U/R Delver (1-2) (0-1)
Game 1 he rolls me, Game 2 I rolls him, Game 3 in extra time on t5 he rips a bolt to flip delver and bolt me for the win, close game not getting a relic really hurt me here, double cruz.
RD2 Scapeshift (2-0) (1-1)
G1 Sculler into INQ/Seize, into Sculler I crush with beathers
G2 More of the same plus edge to keep both inferno titans in his hand Hero FTW
RD3 Pod (2-0) (2-1)
G1 Disruption curve IOK, Sculler, Lilana, Souls splcer beats and a well times PTE
G2 he kept a risky hand and got burned for it
Rd4 Rogue Mill deck (2-1) (3-1)
G1 I brick hard he wins
G2 Close I kill him 1 turn before he mills me out, souls mvp
G3 I crush Him
Rd 5 RWU Geist (1-1-1) (3-1-1)
G1 I roll im again IOK, Sculler, Lily rock him
G2 He abuses me badly with Keranso but takes time
G3 we run out of time, but I was in trouble again active Keranos unfortunately IOK don't get him
I make T8 (7th) on 3-2 got in
Scapeshift, deck reg error cost him game 1
Game 2 he rolls me
Game 3 he punts badly, forgot he didn't have enough mountains left in deck to kill me or even activate valakut I guess, so hero gets im next turn.
T4 RWU Burn
G1 somehow I wim g1 for me in this is usually awful
G2 he gets real lucky td cruz and enough burn to kill me at the same time turn before
I would have had him
G# he rolls me
Never drew any Firewalkers so a bit unlucky
comments
Sideboard is a work in progress partially due to cards I own
Would have played 3 lily's if I had 3, very good all day
Kitchen Finks and Restoration angel underwhelmed though that combo did help game 1 vs burn
Night's Whisper was decent for gas, but did side at least 1 out almost always and sometimes 3 or 4
Batterskull did nothing but get broken
Sculler was very good for the most part
RWU control seems very tough to beat without a lily
I have played variations of this deck off and on for a bit, have tried things like rats and bobs before etc, was trying a different angle a bit since quite frankly since cruz/dig entered the format this deck has all but vanished even in the small margins it was before.
Burn is bad game 1 and needs a lot to make the matchup pretty good hence the amount of space for it, though firwalker was ok against scapeshift and prob is against delver, for having 3 of these whenever I boarded I never saw them really. Any thoughts or input or questions would be appreciated.
Not sure, its prone to early removal before he has done anything and you have to actually attack and hit for him to return something. Can be great, IF you get to equip him, IF on an open field, IF... Many conditions.
IMHO, in Modern, the effect must be there when it 'enters the battlefield', or something with protection. Otherwise, you are almost into Delver field where you need to make your deck revolve around making sure your threat connects and stays in play.
Splinter Twin 0-2
I lost both games to infinity creature combo. Every hand disrupt and spot removal I played got countered the first match. 2nd match went well until he drew Blood Moon. Long story short, I had no white mana on the field and didn't draw any white mana for 9 turns.
Tron 2-0
First match I out-aggroed him using tokens, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold. 2nd match went the same but I drew early into stony silence and he just sat there until he died.
Treasure Cruise Burn 1-2
In the first match I barely outraced him with hand disrupts, tokens, and Sorin. I switched in crusaders for Kor Firewalker but only drew 1 for each of the last 2 games (that I lost). He skullcracked me when I was low, topdecked treasure cruise, and proceeded to hit me with 2 burn spells.
Maybe I need Surgical Extraction or something because Aven Mindcensor was not pulling his weight.
These are the 75 I was thinking about:
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Pack Rat
4 Dark Confidant
Spells (19):
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Bitterblossom
4 Path to Exile
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands (23):
3 Mutavault
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Restoration Angel
3 Auriok Champion
2 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
Any kind of feedback will be highly appreciated.
You have 2 choices with the rat. Either you drop it turn 2 and see how it goes, or you go grindy and drop it turn 5. If it resolves, it's instant madness, cause it's gonna stay there for real, or is gonna trade 2/3 for one, which is amazing. Either they die to it, or they run out of gas because of it. Remember, IF it resolves and IF it survives (if cast on T2).
I'm playing with the idea of using swords, but since I don't own any, and I do own some Sorin, Solemn Visitor I'm sticking with him (also because I'm running Bitterblossom). He's the master of Tokens, insane synergy with the rat, blossom and Hero of Bladehold. If a non responded Bladehold is 90% of the times a sealed game, a following Sorin is 180%.
Also, I noticed you're still running the full set of Bobs. I'm in the same camp, but I keep hearing that he is really bad right now. I would love to get people's opinions on this. Part of me feels like it's just overblown from the MTGO meta and in paper he's still pretty good.
Yeah, you might be right. The problem is there are no such cards in B/W that are cheap enough. Brimaz, King of Oreskos might be good enough but it's double white and costs three. Blade Splicer is kind of good but mostly with blink-effects. Seeker is at least a threat that the opponent has to deal with soon and I run a lot of discard (4 Inquisition of Kozilek, 4 Thoughtseize and 3 Liliana of the Veil) in my Seeker build which both lets me fight for it's survival in the early game and triggers him after that.
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
I've heard Treasure Cruise is an ok draw card
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
4x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Duress
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
3x Treasure Cruise
Instant (7)
2x Darkblast
4x Path to Exile
1x Slaughter Pact
Creature (11)
4x Blade Splicer
4x Pack Rat
3x Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact (1)
1x Batterskull
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Doom Blade
2x Esper Charm
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Zealous Persecution
I'd make a deeper splash and replace Blade Splicer with Geist of Saint Traft.
Also, what does everyone think about Monastery Mentor? In a deck with discard to protect him from removal and enough noncreature spells he could fulfill a role similar to that of Pack Rat.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I was thinking of it more as a Brimaz replacement. Having 8 Pack Rat equivalents would be an amazing trump in the midrange matchups.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
Who says that they have to be instant speed? Discard into Mentor into Lingering Souls, Liliana, or a removal spell, is still pretty good.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Lands:
4x Marsh Flats
4x Godless Shrine
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Arid Mesa
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Fetid Heath
2x Tectonic Edge
5x Plains
4x Swamp
Creatures
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Blade Splicer
1x Brimaz
3x Resoration Angel
2x Hero of Bladehold
Non Creature Spells
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Night's Whisper
1x Victim of Night
4x Path to Exile
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lingering Souls
Sideboard
3x Kor Firewalker
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stoney Silence
2x Sundering Growth
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Batterskull
1x Doom Blade
1x Wrath of God
1x Timley Reinforcements
1x Zealous Persecution
Tourney
Rd1 U/R Delver (1-2) (0-1)
Game 1 he rolls me, Game 2 I rolls him, Game 3 in extra time on t5 he rips a bolt to flip delver and bolt me for the win, close game not getting a relic really hurt me here, double cruz.
RD2 Scapeshift (2-0) (1-1)
G1 Sculler into INQ/Seize, into Sculler I crush with beathers
G2 More of the same plus edge to keep both inferno titans in his hand Hero FTW
RD3 Pod (2-0) (2-1)
G1 Disruption curve IOK, Sculler, Lilana, Souls splcer beats and a well times PTE
G2 he kept a risky hand and got burned for it
Rd4 Rogue Mill deck (2-1) (3-1)
G1 I brick hard he wins
G2 Close I kill him 1 turn before he mills me out, souls mvp
G3 I crush Him
Rd 5 RWU Geist (1-1-1) (3-1-1)
G1 I roll im again IOK, Sculler, Lily rock him
G2 He abuses me badly with Keranso but takes time
G3 we run out of time, but I was in trouble again active Keranos unfortunately IOK don't get him
I make T8 (7th) on 3-2 got in
Scapeshift, deck reg error cost him game 1
Game 2 he rolls me
Game 3 he punts badly, forgot he didn't have enough mountains left in deck to kill me or even activate valakut I guess, so hero gets im next turn.
T4 RWU Burn
G1 somehow I wim g1 for me in this is usually awful
G2 he gets real lucky td cruz and enough burn to kill me at the same time turn before
I would have had him
G# he rolls me
Never drew any Firewalkers so a bit unlucky
comments
Sideboard is a work in progress partially due to cards I own
Would have played 3 lily's if I had 3, very good all day
Kitchen Finks and Restoration angel underwhelmed though that combo did help game 1 vs burn
Night's Whisper was decent for gas, but did side at least 1 out almost always and sometimes 3 or 4
Batterskull did nothing but get broken
Sculler was very good for the most part
RWU control seems very tough to beat without a lily
I have played variations of this deck off and on for a bit, have tried things like rats and bobs before etc, was trying a different angle a bit since quite frankly since cruz/dig entered the format this deck has all but vanished even in the small margins it was before.
Burn is bad game 1 and needs a lot to make the matchup pretty good hence the amount of space for it, though firwalker was ok against scapeshift and prob is against delver, for having 3 of these whenever I boarded I never saw them really. Any thoughts or input or questions would be appreciated.