I just looked at the list, but it seems crazy... lol and not the good kind.
Just finished watching it, wasn't all that impressed.
What irritates me the most about these Zoo videos recently (his and Frank LePore's to name a few) is that they are using absolutely brutal Zoo lists. Every one that I've seen I haven't said to myself "Oh! I want to play that." it has instead been "why are they playing such terrible versions?"
I am looking at building this, mainly because I have a few Goyfs now and a bunch of fetches that I like to stick in decks, and I was wondering what the current ideal build is?
I have seen people go with 'big zoo' (KotR, Goyf, etc) and normal zoo (kird ape, loam lion). I think I am more attracted to Big Zoo at the moment. Is there a standard Big Zoo build that people are using? Also, why are there often more fetch lands than targets? To make Knight bigger (even though you have no land to get)?
I am looking at building this, mainly because I have a few Goyfs now and a bunch of fetches that I like to stick in decks, and I was wondering what the current ideal build is?
I have seen people go with 'big zoo' (KotR, Goyf, etc) and normal zoo (kird ape, loam lion). I think I am more attracted to Big Zoo at the moment. Is there a standard Big Zoo build that people are using? Also, why are there often more fetch lands than targets? To make Knight bigger (even though you have no land to get)?
This is the thread that I've been using for advice about my big zoo deck. The front page is in need of updating but the last few pages are full of good advice. And yeah, people use a lot of fetchlands both to grow Knight and also to make sure Nacatl is always a 3/3 on turn 2. Personally I'm not a fan of that kind of strategy, I only use 8 fetches and it works okay for me. I have been considering going up to 12 though.
Alright. Heres my current list. I really like it, depending on how you wanna go you could give or take a land (if you take a land, replace it with path, if you give a land, replace it from helix.)
I got to many land filled hands for me at 22 lands, so 21 feels right. I like naturally drawing horizon, but I opted to go with steppe with all the rock going about too. It also allows me to safely rampage sometimes, knowing they will have to 2-2 it to trade, leaving my knight still alive.
I really like my sideboard, and I'll go over sideboard details of it, knowing thats been asked for, and I tested this list with that in mind. Again I'm only ganna do the top 12 performing decks online from mtggoldfish.
This is very much legacy like. Its more or less got the same set up. grims to kill out tempo, give game on aggro, eat chumps for the big beef. A tad Higher cmced, to give a better middle game, which has come in handy. While I love rushing, right now I think we need to be just a little better curved, only a tad higher. We still get race options, but we get more choices too.
Its been working out for for me any rate. My rock matchup has gone up significantly, to the point where, oddly enough, Id say I'm favored. Knight brings home the bacon, being 4/4 at least, while getting kessig to run over souls, and null a pulse with steppe. In a long game, steppe actually wins games because you get to alpha last damage.
I'm sold now on the 2 ooze, 2 pridemage. Ive had hands where Ive had all 3, and my order for casting is pridemage (IF there are less than 3 things in the yard.) Tarmo, ooze. They deal with pridemage, tarmo is bigger, if they deal with tarmo, ooze has 2 targets. Ooze has been putting in work vs rock decks, eating souls and shrinking goyf, as well as blue decks, killing snap targets. Even when twin burns it away, I can eat at least 1-2 of their removal in their yard making their game plan way worse.
I mean the rest is normal stuff. Lower on path because I have seen less pod then ever, even if gold fish still says its number 1. Look at the curve:
(Key: Cmc- number of creatures/creatures+spells//Spells+ Critters +Alternative costs (see bottom)
Alternative costs: rampager costs 4, but alternative costs 2, Ooze costs 2 but alternative costs 4, pridemage costs 2 but alternative costs 3)
Dat curve is sexy. You can see how nicely that thing works on all ends.
I like my side as it stands too. The deck feels much more interchangeable since the last version. You know what comes in and out, even based on just the over all aggression level. AkA, goblin guide and ghorclan are aggressive. They come out when you want to be more resilient or controlling. Pridemage and ooze are more midrangey, they come out if you need a better clock with hate. ect.
Why? Tarmo is basicly a 2/3 both of these games. the other 2 cmms dudes are all better than him regardless. You want to be aggro and rush. Knight gets the nod because if the game stalls, you will win with her getting a wolfrun and winning. You side in more hate for Kiki because its less midrange and its more combo, so you treat it as such.
Why? You are the control, side in more removal. If you land a stony, you win, easy as pie. Revelrys and pridemages should be aimed at trouble artifacts (but, use your judgement.) Ensoul artifact is all the rage right now, so remember you can kill an ensouled menite post attackers by killing the soul, than blocking. In the () is if you face the dumb NO affinity, which runs dark confidants or tarmogoyfs. It slows them down and you can win easier.
Why? Bolt and helix isnt killing anything, and offers 3 damage. not really helpful against a wurm coil. Silence will shut down their board wipes and cantrips. path kills wurm for final damage. revelry can kill a board wipe or in a rare case, wurm. Molten rain breaks tron.
REMEMBER: you are aggro. DO NOT LET THEM GAIN LIFE. If you have them at 5, with a ape, nacatl, and guide on the board, and they drop a wurm, you cam still win. You can attack, they declare block on nacatl, then in responce, cast destructive revelry on the wurm. No life is gained, they lose 2, nacatl remains blocked and you get in for 4 damage, putting them at -1.
Deck: Burn/rdw
Side In: 3 layline of sancity, 2 thrun
Side Out: 2 rampager, 3 guide.
Why? We cant beat a real burn deck. even when racing they will always be a turn-2 turns faster than us. Game 2, wait for them to keep or not. if they mull to 5 or lower, you might be able to race them if your opener is good enough. If not, mull to layline. You should get it by mull 4 at least with 3 laylines. they will probably concede as they dont ready leyline hate unless they see it. If they dont just bolt any dudes they have, or block and trade with your dudes. Eventually you'll land a dude and they wont have any more creature damage, and just attack. Game 3 they will side in layline hate. again, wait for them to kp. If they keep right away, they either have the counter hate or they didnt have it in their side. either way, assume your boned unless you have layline and mull for it. If they mull to 5 or lower, that means they mulled for the counter hate, and you can race them, with out hate.
Why? Both of these decks have the same combo core, which while scary and you should respect it, you shouldnt be paranoid about it. They want to survive to the next turn to combo, more than they care about comboing, so they will play at your pace. tempo twin is more about winning through the combo than tarmo twin, which is more of a midrange deck. Notice the differnce I put out. Tempo has reverly for the combo, and I take out ghor clans. Stopping the combo is more important there. Tarmo is more about surviving your dudes through combat. thus helix is less good, and ghor is much better. Molten rain should be used here to blow up stomping grounds. they have a greedy mana base, and killing their access to green and denying them double red is great.
Note: currently 1 in every 5 twin decks are tarmo twin. So if you dont see the green, default to tempo.
Deck: Delver
Side In: 2 Vines, 2 thrun
Side Out: 2 ghor, 2 pridemage
Why? They rock so much burn, that you want vines to just make them sad. Lavamancer shines here, as it just eats their everything. Ghor is just unsafe here, and id rather cut him game 2/3 than knight or ooze, or can become huge. Kessig if you need to get over pyro tokens.
Why? First off, blood moon doesnt work anymore. Jund, oddly enough, it hurts the worst, but they fetch correctly in game 2 simply because they want to take less damage. Their win cons rock red, so they only need 1 basic to still win, and they can still crack, and kill the moon inresponce to your moon. Rather than worrying about when I can Armageddon, because thats what moon is in that matchup, I can slow them a turn, shock them, and still cut the access off of red, green or white. Its just a better plan right now. Its not like their pilots ARENT expecting a blood moon game 2, its not secret tech. Thats the main reason I'm using molten rain over moon now. Junk for example, isnt really phased by a moon at all.
Now thats outta the way, thrun is for later on. if the game gets too long he can play blocer duty and let me burn them out, or if everythings going well, he closes the game after they kill all my stuff. In alot of my junk games, they will souls, and sit on removal spells, thinking they stablized, when I drop thrun, and they realize they are out of souls from my nacatl attacks, and they cant remove the dude.
Vines is obvious, dont let them kill your stuff. Path is to clear the way. Helix is cut because it doesnt do as much as the others. 1 grim stays because it can double with a bolt or an attacker to trade. Make sure if a pulse is about to 2 for 1 you, you bolt their target to keep your other dude.
Why? They are a speed combo deck. They will just try and combo. As such, your late game stuff doesnt matter. either they cant combo and you win due to race, or you have the hate for their combo and you win, or they have it, you dont, and you lose. Simple as that. Molten rain should hit a tolara, so they cant fetch a pact of negotation to stop path on titan. Revelry hits both amulet and hivemind. Hushwing buys you a turn with titan.
Deck: Merfolk
Side In: 1 Path
Side Out: 1 guide
Why? Yep, that easy. Zoo historically kills merfolk. Just keep attacking and remove their lords. No need to side in arti hate if you dont see swords AND skite. You got enough with pridemage. Sans that, you also have grim, who loves to cook fish.
Side Out: 2 pridemages, 2 grim, 2 helix. (2 helix)
Why? Id only side the molten rains on the play. Its a little slow, but might catch them off guard. The leylines here are added hate, unlike burn, where you mull for them. They are completely castable in this matchup. vines stop early burn (wipes too, if you have the mana, and path used to be optional, but with the 3 baloth they use in the side, and 2 titan, you got to have it now. Remember, at worse you can path a blocker like snap or tribe elder before blocks to finish damage.
Deck: American Control
Side In: 2 thrun, 3 molten rain, 2 vines
Side Out: 2 pridemage, 4 helix, 1 path/bolt
Why? You should be beating them anyways. But The thrun will just end the game. Uncounterable, unburnable, and you cant wrath it. yikes. Pridemage is less than steller here, as is helix. Its a 1 damage kinda deal, not what you want. Raining them will add a turn to your beat down clock, and vines makes mini thruns. I lef the bolt path up to you. Normally I favor taking out the bolt because path gets rid of their snaps as effectivly as bolt does, but also kills their main win cons, angel and colonnade.
Deck: Storm
Side In: 3 layline, 1 revelry
Side Out: 3 paths, 1 knight.
Why? You could mull to leyline and probably win, but I'm not going to advice it. Its not really castable, but I wouldnt mull lower than 5 for it. You want to beat down, burn electro mancers, eat the yard with ooze, and blow up ascensions with pridemage and revelry. WATCH OUT for a turn 2 blood moon. They can just go turn 2, land, ritual, blood moon, and screw you. Make sure you can cast green.
Other than that, aggro. Normally you can beat down fast enough they are forced to go off a turn earlier than they want to and its a 50% chance they fizzle.
i really like your list here and im hoping to build the same thing to try out next week with the new fetches. however i have only two goyfs and dont see myself buying the extra 2 to complete my playset. what do you reccomend i could use in the extra 2 slots? maybe an extra 2 ghor-clan or 1 ghor clan and the full playset of paths or maybe, just maybe, a 3cmc planeswalker ajani,caller of the pride/domri rade?
"big zoo" is a midrange deck, and like counter cat, should be discussed elsewhere. Its ok to ask what people perfer but when you get to te nitty gritty, you need to do that in the other thread.
Mod hat off now, i havent watched his video, but it still looks like garbage. Its big zoo with steppe lynx. Why? Becase why not. And boros charm. Like... It doesnt have kird ape. He opted for lynx over ape? Seems crazy. Pat cox is the only one from channel fireball i trust with aggro zoo. Im not trying to say our lists are better... Im just saying they put no real time or testing in theirs.
Jim, if your missing two goyfs and still want to run my list, replace it was 1 pridemage, and one wooly thactar or smiter. Pridemage is good utlity, and wooly can get beats in.
Well thats normal naya. Domain has a worse mana base, and its suicide /sligh as an archtype in aggro, so Id say its:
Blue moon match up is much worse
Tempo matchup (delver) is no longer 70-30 your favor, its probably 60-40 now.
Affinity goes from 50-50 to about 35-65
and burn goes from 10-90 to something more like 1-99.
On the flipside midrange matches get better:
Junk goes from 40-60 to 60-40
jund goes from 35-65 to 55-45
American Control goes from 60-40 to 80-20.
Pod goes from 35-65 to 45ish-55ish.
Twins get better a bit too. Not a ton, but a bit.
In a nut shell, anything that uses removal and attrition to grind the game out gets better. You're speed stays more or less the same, so combo isnt really effected, sans counters or thoughtseizes in the side. Everything I didnt mention, more or less stays the same.
I watched though the video. Not really impressed. It feels like my list... but lacks the correct numbers. Yes knight and ooze and goyf are impressive, and utlity is really important right now, but his are just kinda jammed powerful cards. To review for people who dont care to watch though it:
Game 1: vs pod he gets a fast start and wins, but its true for any zoo deck to get the fast start to win. Nothing groundbreaking.
game 2: mulls forever and loses. He said he wants an aggressive start but cant find one. He has only 8 1 drops, so odds are aggainst him.
Game 3: 2 nacatls. Really, any zoo with 2 nacatls and ghor clan backing will generally win. its stupid.
Game 1 vs cascade: It was an aweful cascade deck, bant colors.
Game 2: see above.
Game 1: vs Pod, again gets the fast start.
game 2: Game goes really long, and the pod player draws pretty bad at the end. Regardless, the pod player stablized and was in control for most of the match. Its probably the only game worth watching out of the bunch. Shows off ooze, ghor clan, and knight.
Overall, unimpressed. Nothing new, nothing innovative, Reasoning behind the deck building was because "he didnt like big zoo and didnt like noble heirch", not really tested out. Very meh.
Mod hat off now, i havent watched his video, but it still looks like garbage. Its big zoo with . Why? Becase why not. And . Like... It doesnt have . He opted for lynx over ape? Seems crazy. Pat cox is the only one from channel fireball i trust with aggro zoo. Im not trying to say our lists are better... Im just saying they put no real time or testing in theirs.
Jim, if your missing two goyfs and still want to run my list, replace it was 1 pridemage, and one wooly thactar or smiter. Pridemage is good utlity, and wooly can get beats in.
awesome, one more question will you be running 4x wooded foothills 4x windswept heath 2x arid mesa?
Should note: not dividing into spells and creatures, as alot of those creatures happen to be spells. Ghorclan, pridemage, ect. They all have bodies, but can be used just as spells.
Hey peeps. I am putting together a version of this, mainly because I want to find something else to do with my Goyfs and I have pulled a bunch of Khans fetches. I don't have access to Hierarchs right now. Here is where I am starting:
What do you guys think? If I like the style of the deck I will eventually pick up some Noble Hierarchs, but being that I am primarily a tempo/control player, I have to see if I enjoy this first.
Should note: not dividing into spells and creatures, as alot of those creatures happen to be spells. Ghorclan, pridemage, ect. They all have bodies, but can be used just as spells.
Interesting list. I like it. It seems like we are raising the curve somewhat? Which I'm alright with. Curious about some of your numbers. Why only 2 Qasali Pridemage? I like seeing more of him but maybe it's just because you don't have much use for him in your meta? Also, with the inclusion of Sejiri Steppe do you find that it mucks up any opening hands? Lastly, how do you like 21 lands?
Itd also mess up image and make skite wayyy worse. Im so with you on that. I dunno. I wanted an imediate effect, and man lands just didnt do it for me... For now at least. Saving a knight from removal can win you the game though. So thats why. If we had a "real" wasteland or something meta savvy like tower or kakasis in legacy.
I like the higher curve. It feels more stable. And sincr moderns games have slowed down a bit in pacimg, the more powerful beats have come in handy. The added utlity has come along way too. But te deck requires alot more thought now. You still have to act aggressivly, but you have more options.
2 pride ooze split because ehy not. You could
Shift it.
Hey peeps. I am putting together a version of this, mainly because I want to find something else to do with my Goyfs and I have pulled a bunch of Khans fetches. I don't have access to Hierarchs right now. Here is where I am starting:
What do you guys think? If I like the style of the deck I will eventually pick up some Noble Hierarchs, but being that I am primarily a tempo/control player, I have to see if I enjoy this first.
I don't think E1 or Steppe Lynx are really what you wanna be doing with this deck, but that's just my opinion. I'd try to find room for Scavenging Ooze as at least a 2-3 of, and I really like BoP/Noble Hierarch, but I don't think it's necessary, especially with as few 4-drops as you're running. Good luck, hope you like the deck!
Hey peeps. I am putting together a version of this, mainly because I want to find something else to do with my Goyfs and I have pulled a bunch of Khans fetches. I don't have access to Hierarchs right now. Here is where I am starting:
What do you guys think? If I like the style of the deck I will eventually pick up some Noble Hierarchs, but being that I am primarily a tempo/control player, I have to see if I enjoy this first.
I don't think E1 or Steppe Lynx are really what you wanna be doing with this deck, but that's just my opinion. I'd try to find room for Scavenging Ooze as at least a 2-3 of, and I really like BoP/Noble Hierarch, but I don't think it's necessary, especially with as few 4-drops as you're running. Good luck, hope you like the deck!
That makes sense. I actually do have 3x Scavenging Ooze lying around, so I will use those. Thanks for the tips!
I just looked at the list, but it seems crazy... lol and not the good kind.
Just finished watching it, wasn't all that impressed.
What irritates me the most about these Zoo videos recently (his and Frank LePore's to name a few) is that they are using absolutely brutal Zoo lists. Every one that I've seen I haven't said to myself "Oh! I want to play that." it has instead been "why are they playing such terrible versions?"
I have seen people go with 'big zoo' (KotR, Goyf, etc) and normal zoo (kird ape, loam lion). I think I am more attracted to Big Zoo at the moment. Is there a standard Big Zoo build that people are using? Also, why are there often more fetch lands than targets? To make Knight bigger (even though you have no land to get)?
This is the thread that I've been using for advice about my big zoo deck. The front page is in need of updating but the last few pages are full of good advice. And yeah, people use a lot of fetchlands both to grow Knight and also to make sure Nacatl is always a 3/3 on turn 2. Personally I'm not a fan of that kind of strategy, I only use 8 fetches and it works okay for me. I have been considering going up to 12 though.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
i really like your list here and im hoping to build the same thing to try out next week with the new fetches. however i have only two goyfs and dont see myself buying the extra 2 to complete my playset. what do you reccomend i could use in the extra 2 slots? maybe an extra 2 ghor-clan or 1 ghor clan and the full playset of paths or maybe, just maybe, a 3cmc planeswalker ajani,caller of the pride/domri rade?
Mod hat off now, i havent watched his video, but it still looks like garbage. Its big zoo with steppe lynx. Why? Becase why not. And boros charm. Like... It doesnt have kird ape. He opted for lynx over ape? Seems crazy. Pat cox is the only one from channel fireball i trust with aggro zoo. Im not trying to say our lists are better... Im just saying they put no real time or testing in theirs.
Jim, if your missing two goyfs and still want to run my list, replace it was 1 pridemage, and one wooly thactar or smiter. Pridemage is good utlity, and wooly can get beats in.
I'm still struggling with my sideboard.
EDIT: Nevermind. I just realized it's on this same page if I just scroll up. I'll look at that as an overview.
Blue moon match up is much worse
Tempo matchup (delver) is no longer 70-30 your favor, its probably 60-40 now.
Affinity goes from 50-50 to about 35-65
and burn goes from 10-90 to something more like 1-99.
On the flipside midrange matches get better:
Junk goes from 40-60 to 60-40
jund goes from 35-65 to 55-45
American Control goes from 60-40 to 80-20.
Pod goes from 35-65 to 45ish-55ish.
Twins get better a bit too. Not a ton, but a bit.
In a nut shell, anything that uses removal and attrition to grind the game out gets better. You're speed stays more or less the same, so combo isnt really effected, sans counters or thoughtseizes in the side. Everything I didnt mention, more or less stays the same.
Game 1: vs pod he gets a fast start and wins, but its true for any zoo deck to get the fast start to win. Nothing groundbreaking.
game 2: mulls forever and loses. He said he wants an aggressive start but cant find one. He has only 8 1 drops, so odds are aggainst him.
Game 3: 2 nacatls. Really, any zoo with 2 nacatls and ghor clan backing will generally win. its stupid.
Game 1 vs cascade: It was an aweful cascade deck, bant colors.
Game 2: see above.
Game 1: vs Pod, again gets the fast start.
game 2: Game goes really long, and the pod player draws pretty bad at the end. Regardless, the pod player stablized and was in control for most of the match. Its probably the only game worth watching out of the bunch. Shows off ooze, ghor clan, and knight.
Overall, unimpressed. Nothing new, nothing innovative, Reasoning behind the deck building was because "he didnt like big zoo and didnt like noble heirch", not really tested out. Very meh.
awesome, one more question will you be running 4x wooded foothills 4x windswept heath 2x arid mesa?
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Removal and utility- 19
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Helix
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Molten Rain
2 Vines of Vastwood
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Hushwing Gryff
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
Should note: not dividing into spells and creatures, as alot of those creatures happen to be spells. Ghorclan, pridemage, ect. They all have bodies, but can be used just as spells.
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
I have 4x Experiment One, which I am thinking would work, or I could pick up some BOPS. Steppe Lynx? Loam Lion?
What do you guys think? If I like the style of the deck I will eventually pick up some Noble Hierarchs, but being that I am primarily a tempo/control player, I have to see if I enjoy this first.
Interesting list. I like it. It seems like we are raising the curve somewhat? Which I'm alright with. Curious about some of your numbers. Why only 2 Qasali Pridemage? I like seeing more of him but maybe it's just because you don't have much use for him in your meta? Also, with the inclusion of Sejiri Steppe do you find that it mucks up any opening hands? Lastly, how do you like 21 lands?
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I like the higher curve. It feels more stable. And sincr moderns games have slowed down a bit in pacimg, the more powerful beats have come in handy. The added utlity has come along way too. But te deck requires alot more thought now. You still have to act aggressivly, but you have more options.
2 pride ooze split because ehy not. You could
Shift it.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I don't think E1 or Steppe Lynx are really what you wanna be doing with this deck, but that's just my opinion. I'd try to find room for Scavenging Ooze as at least a 2-3 of, and I really like BoP/Noble Hierarch, but I don't think it's necessary, especially with as few 4-drops as you're running. Good luck, hope you like the deck!
That makes sense. I actually do have 3x Scavenging Ooze lying around, so I will use those. Thanks for the tips!