What do you guys think of this? It took 10th on an Online Premier just over a week ago. I'm asking because I don't know too much about Modern but I do love Blood Moon (especially being able to cast it on turn 2) and looking at decks it is what actually led me to this thread.
There's a lot of stuff that is getting discussed, and I'd just like to go back to Michael Jacob's article to bring a little sanity back to the discussion
On Big Green Idiots
These are all just giant creatures that offer no card advantage, mana, or flexibility for our combo beyond devotion to Nykthos. These all seem like cards that would fit into a completely different deck. That deck would be a lot better against "fair" decks with Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, and/or Cryptic Command but significantly worse against turn 4 combo decks like Goryo's Vengeance, Pyromaster's Ascension, Birthing Pod, Splinter Twin, Tron, Scapeshift, and Burn.
On Xenagos, Emrakul, and Tooth and Nail
Tooth and Nail does allow us to kill easily from nine mana, as a Genesis Wave for six has a low chance of missing. The problem is I often cast Genesis Wave for five to eight mana just for value, something Tooth and Nail is unable to do. Adding a second Craterhoof Behemoth to search for does not guarantee wins, so you would need to add the combo of Xenagos God of Revels and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn as the win condition. Even this combination is vulnerable to Pestermite / Deceiver Exarch / Cryptic Command tapping, so this is still not 100%. Many deckbuilders underestimate the impact of adding blank draws like these to the deck, so I believe in its current configuration and that Tooth and Nail is not good enough
On Regal Force
Similar to Elves in Legacy, Mono-Green Devotion uses a multitude of green mana producers to reach a critical mass and end the game with Craterhoof Behemoth instead. There are two scenarios that often come up—you either have little going on and a Regal Force drawing a card will not save you or have a lot going on in and Craterhoof Behemoth would just kill them.
As a side note, I did run Regal Force in earlier versions of the deck. I found it to be unimpressive, not to mention a little dangerous with the Wave. I've decked myself more than once because I hit a Regal Force after a big Wave, only to have to draw more cards than were available.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
As for the enchantment build, I gave it a shot and really didn't like it. It was a lot clunkier than prior builds and Eidelon wasn't as impressive as I would have expected
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I've seen people mention this in the old thread and now this one about possibly decking themselves with a big wave by hitting too many selkies/regal force. Genesis Wave is a may ability. You don't have to put everything you flip over into play. I've done it before where I flipped over the deck and then just put all the card drawers in the bin (and you know killed them with Hoof Power). Just wanted to make sure that people reading this primer know that.
Also, thanks for the primer. I've been playing this deck off and on for a few months and it is hilarious to see the look on people's faces when you pick up 20+ cards from the deck and plop them onto the battlefield. An being able to just top deck something silly (like Prime/Wave) after going empty handed is demoralizing for some people.
EDH is like French fries: some people like waffle cut, crinkle cut, or plain old straight cut, and while there's slight flavor difference and personal preference, at the end of the day they're still fries.
Hey Guys. This is such an active thread! It's great.
Caspian,
You are exactly right...Cavern of Souls is unreal. In the control match-up it essentially wins the game. I used to run 3 (and at one point a 4th in the sideboard) but I've since ran less. I would like to fit one more in the sideboard; but have to test to see where I can make the change.
1. Arbor Elf can untap a land to be utilized later upon "killing" (where an Mana-dork's mana would have to be used in the phase it is destroyed).
2. Utopia Sprawl can be used at "instant speed" as long as it is cast on turn two or later.
3. Utopia Sprawl survives after a Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods.
Having said this, there are almost never any situations when a card or a set of cards are "strictly better" than others...and you know better than most what works best for your deck. Wall of Roots is a powerhouse with Chord; as is having more creatures....so you may be absolutely right that in your build they are better. As always, testing is the only way to know. It's crazy how much testing it takes just to see if one little change is worth it! Love the new build, btw. Spellskite is the best "hate" card there is in the format (in my opinion).
Jankydude,
What an interesting build. Looks great! I don't know if you've seen it, but Gerry Thompson discussed your build on SCG.com (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28920_Daily-Digest-Hateful-Devotion.html). While it wasn't an extremely in-depth article; any time you get recognition from a Pro its something to be extremely proud of!
I like the idea of Blood Moon. I run Magus of the Moon in my board...but I can only imagine how devastating it must be to many opponents in the main board. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed as well. I love the idea of putting "side board" cards in the main. And Strangleroot Geist is such an awesome card. It's one I go back and fourth on and wish I could use.
Excited to see all of the different builds. I'll try to keep everything up to date on mine (i.e. matches I play, how it fairs against certain decks, etc.) as well. I'll also try to format it in a way that looks better (i.e. in the little "deck box" rather than a list).
Still working on certain items (like if I can add a 2nd Craterhoof Behemoth, sideboard options, etc.) but after relatively extensive testing I'm very happy with the current list. I am open and interested in discussing other options (including the Primal Command / Eternal Witness lock, etc.). I've found this to be the most competitive of the devotion builds I've brewed and tested thus far; but never want to close myself off to any ideas!
elvish visionary actually seems half-decent in a build running 4x chord of calling.
i think i prefer it to the other devotion-heavy-but-less-efficient cards that people have been running here.
i don't think you necessarily need to go nuts on the devotion thing. generally once you slam a garruk on the table you've got at least 5 or 6 devotion, which is enough (with untaps) to make (usually) upwards of 12 or 16 mana from a nykthos plus mana dorks. and that's on the same turn as you drop garruk.
i think going crazy heavy on the devotion is a win-more tactic and i'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of a more consistent build vs. the devotion-heavy builds i've been seeing.
my thoughts are that once you get off a wave, as long as it's at least 7-10 cards (so 10-13 mana paid. easy enough) you can usually just keep waving through your entire deck, because you'll most likely drop a second garruk and an eternal witness, to untap your nythos, get back your wave and cast it all again.
also, i think the strength of the deck going forward is as a toolbox deck (in the same vein as pod), except with a combo win. utilising our superior mana ramping to chord out hate cards is a real strategy. playing big green fatties like primalcrux is not. sorry for the stompy fans. i just don't see it cutting it against Jund or Twin.
also finally, i came to the conclusion last night while testing that when you get up to 17(ish) or more mana, you kind of just want to cast genesis hydra and get the uncounterable win condition from your deck. having a wave countered in the late game when you're regularly getting 20 or more mana is a huge blowout against us. hydra gets around this by effectively just getting the best card in our deck from the top 20 cards, and there's nothing they can do about it. it's not as explosive, but it's more resilient. i think we need a healthy dose of both, which is why i'm running 3x genesis wave and 2x genesis hydra
gnuhouse, how much discussion was there in the previous thread about Chord of Calling?
I know there was a lot of talk about a white splash, but was Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite brought up either?
The 4 Chord + 1 Elesh package seems very powerful against most of the metagame.
In addition Chord makes me confident about maindecking Acidic Slime and one-ofs like Spellskite in the main as opposed to the SB.
I'm not sure our G1 needs much help, but it'd definitely make the deck more flexible.
4 Chords might be a but much though. 3 might be the right number.
If you would read a primer, you would see gnuhouse talking about my non-Genesis Wave version of a deck that run 2 Chord of Calling for most part, with all needed silver boolet spread in md/sb: Spellskite, Kataki, Linvala, Scavenging Ooze, Elesh Norn, Polukranos, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Sliver/Now Reclamation Sage. That aproach is best with Primal Command / Chord of Calling version, as a lot of those cards doesnt give you a lot of devotion. It will probably work the best with elf version of a deck: with Visionary and Oracle, as they work as mana with chord of calling.
I tried Acidic Slime and didnt like it. It doesnt do much, Other options are better most of the time. Remember it is correct to Chord of Calling on endstep for Eternal Witness getting back Chord. With Nykthos it gives you 3 more mana next turn.
elvish visionary actually seems half-decent in a build running 4x chord of calling.
i think i prefer it to the other devotion-heavy-but-less-efficient cards that people have been running here.
i don't think you necessarily need to go nuts on the devotion thing. generally once you slam a garruk on the table you've got at least 5 or 6 devotion, which is enough (with untaps) to make (usually) upwards of 12 or 16 mana from a nykthos plus mana dorks. and that's on the same turn as you drop garruk.
i think going crazy heavy on the devotion is a win-more tactic and i'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of a more consistent build vs. the devotion-heavy builds i've been seeing.
my thoughts are that once you get off a wave, as long as it's at least 7-10 cards (so 10-13 mana paid. easy enough) you can usually just keep waving through your entire deck, because you'll most likely drop a second garruk and an eternal witness, to untap your nythos, get back your wave and cast it all again.
also, i think the strength of the deck going forward is as a toolbox deck (in the same vein as pod), except with a combo win. utilising our superior mana ramping to chord out hate cards is a real strategy. playing big green fatties like primalcrux is not. sorry for the stompy fans. i just don't see it cutting it against Jund or Twin.
also finally, i came to the conclusion last night while testing that when you get up to 17(ish) or more mana, you kind of just want to cast genesis hydra and get the uncounterable win condition from your deck. having a wave countered in the late game when you're regularly getting 20 or more mana is a huge blowout against us. hydra gets around this by effectively just getting the best card in our deck from the top 20 cards, and there's nothing they can do about it. it's not as explosive, but it's more resilient. i think we need a healthy dose of both, which is why i'm running 3x genesis wave and 2x genesis hydra
Another solid post. Basicly you stated everything I was talking all along - going all-in on devotion (eg. running dead cards like BTE) isn't best option most of the time, as without this nykthos you dont have enough mana to do anything with it. Either my version (midrange value Command - Chord) or CurdBroses (elvish Wave - Chord version) is much more resilient. My midrange version can grind games, CurdBroses version has additional way of generating more mana (elvish archdruid).
I think we have consensus, that the most POWERFUL version of a deck is gnuhouses version (all-in devo Wave - Command).
Currently we have:
1. gnuhouse All-In Devotion (featuring burning-tree emissary, genesis wave, primal command)
2. CurdBros Elf Devotion (featuring elvish archdruid, chord of calling, genesis wave)
3. Pedros Midrange Devotion (featuring midrange cards such as path to exile, courser of krupnix, restoration angel, primal command, chord of calling)
Notice POWERLEVEL is going from the top to the bottom, while RESILIENCY from a bottom to a top. We also see it how me and gnuhouse is trying to beat decks like twin or storm - eg. turn 4 combo decks with interaction. He tries to race it. I try to interrupt their combo and win from that point. I think CurdBros version is exactly in a middle, and I like it, even currently trying to make elf Command-Chord version. However I dont think it is possible to incorporate 3 splashes (red for kessig, blue for oracle, white for sideboard hate-offs) in a one build (might be possible with abundant growths)
Quote from from="gnuhouse »" »
@gnuhouse - your nickname starts without capital letter, I dont know if you like it - if you feel offended I will change it.
Quote from from="CurdBros »" »
@CurdBros - can you share why you play only 3 Elvish Archdruid? (I didnt find it in your primer) Isnt he crucial to your build? Or you only need 1 and dont want to play more? Also concerning mana how often does Cavern on elf allows you to cast Oracle, and stops you from playing utopia spraw / good arbor elf? How often you name blue on utopia sprawl? Do you have problem on playing 2 Coiling Oracles on one turn? How often you fetch for Kessig / Nykthos, and do you have problems activating kessig at that point (eg. did abundant growth allow you to activate it).
@All.
I think if you want to play 3-4 Chord of Calling version, you need to play CurdBros version with 2 mana card draw engine. It is most resilient way. However we need to think what is a real core at this point and how many 1-offs we can afford to run / what could be cut to make slots for 1 offs. First we should think how many 1 drop accelerators and how many card draws we want in a deck.
ok well for your consideration i'd like to add my own version, which hopefully tackles the modern metagame in its current form (i.e. lots of UWR control, lots of Jund or GBx decks, lots of Twin, lots of Affinity and to a lesser extent, Tron)
the build focuses mainly on the ability to cast an early chord, and build from there. my thinking is that while devotion shouldn't be our single-minded gameplan (it adds too many bad cards to the deck) it should be a consideration.
for that reason, i think thrun, the last troll will be an important card for the deck, moving forward. it functions as a "safe" chord target, resilient to removal. you can often chord him out with mana up to regenerate him. he protects garruk, adds devotion. makes hell for control decks and beats for 4. i will always run 1. naturally drawing him is also fine.
i also think obstinate baloth becomes a 2-of maindeck choice with the prevalence of jund/GBx/WB decks at the moment. not to mention 8-rack making top table showings at PTQs. it gives us a solid beatdown plan, adds devotion. blocks for days. isn't easily removable and is a house against liliana.
also because this is a chord version of the deck, i'm going deep with creatures. this does make us vulnerable to pyroclam to a certain extent. but then if we can instant-speed chord into thrun or baloth (not hard) then we have an 'out' against that, which preserves our devotion count and advances the board in our favour.
so it seems like the deck has everything it needs.
answers to combo: relic of progenitus (beats the graveyard strategies and shrinks goyfs) spellskite (a second one in the board because of all the awesome interactions against a wide field of decks) linvala, keeper of silence (hits pod, twin, resto, etc.) ethersworn canonist (good off a chord) slaughter games (possibly our best sideboard card - worth the splash, trust me. Tron is splashing for 3 of these in every sideboard, it's unreal). shriekmaw (hits twin) rakdos charm (hits twin/storm/living end/UWR/whatever. it's good) elesh norn, grand cenobite (hits pod, twin etc.)
answers to Blood Moon:
3x nature's claim
ok. i'm laying the law here - we don't want a chord-able creature as our blood moon tech. if they hit a blood moon, we aren't casting any chord of callings (or it's much less likely at least). what we want against blood moon is a 1-mana instant speed answer, and we want three of them to maximise drawing one early. moon shuts us down like nothing else.
i think we have a solid matchup against affinity. our hate cards work against them pretty massively. linvala does some work against ravager and all the others.
anyway that's what i'd take to a PTQ if i was running nykthos green tomorrow. i wouldn't go for the worse-card-quality all-in version. i'd stick it out with the best hate cards in the game, and play the outvalue-your-opponent strategy.
i'm actually pretty proud of this list. it incorporates a lot of disparate ideas but makes them into something which looks competitive. testing needs to follow. maybe i'll break it out casually between rounds at the PTQ this weekend i'm attending (i'm running a tweaked brew of scapeshift. looking to crush)
GnuHouse, gnuhouse, it doesn't really matter to me
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I'm just going to throw this out there as my opinion on Chord.
I look at this as a Chord vs Genesis Wave discussion, much like Genesis Wave vs Tooth and Nail. Tooth and Nail looks like a much better card than Genesis Wave at first glance; you can tutor for the exact cards you want and put them into play immediately, and for the same mana cost as a 6 card Genesis Wave. The thing about Genesis Wave is the flexibility, in that you can cast it for anywhere between 4 and 7 for value, and you can get something other than two creatures (land, enchantments, and planeswalkers). Sometimes tutoring up two creatures isn't what you want to be doing because it doesn't win you the game, whereas you can start to chain Genesis Waves and win the game almost on the spot.
So enough about Tooth and Nail, let's talk Chord of Calling.
I see the appeal of Chord; it's instant speed and let's us play more of a toolbox. We can, in theory, play around our weaknesses by having one-ofs in our deck, and tutor them up at a moment's notice. We have the ability to generate a lot of mana, and running upwards of 20 creatures with CMC of 3 or less, we can utilize Convoke at the same time.
Here are the two problems I see with Chord
1) It's an X spell that just doesn't win us the game. Yes, we can tutor up cards like Elesh Norn or Craterhoof Behemoth, but it just doesn't out and out win us the game. If I've got an X spell and the ability to run X up through the roof (either mana or Convoke), I want something that will win me the game on the spot.
A simple comparison. Let's call X=8. If I Chord, I grab Craterhoof. It comes into play, gives the team +X/+X. Great, but how big is X going to be? 2? 3? 4? Likely not that big. Further, if I tap any of my creatures to use Convoke (a definite plus for Chord), I lose them as attackers. Now what happens if I Genesis Wave for 8? I get up to 8 new permanents, one of which could be Craterhoof. I might also hit 7 other creatures, which makes my Craterhoof pump at least +7/+7 (so now I have a 12/12 trampling Behemoth, plus whatever other creatures attack). I could also hit Garruk, or a Nykthos, and keep on going. Eternal Witness lets me chain Waves, so the explosiveness of the Genesis Wave > the precision of the Chord of Calling
2) Dead cards. If we go the toolbox route, there's the likelihood of us having dead cards in our hand. Inferno Titan with only one red source? Elesh Norn with only one White source? Chord of Calling without mana dorks? What about these cards in your opening hand?
I'm not saying that there's not a spot for Chord, and maybe it's more of a midrange style deck (which is what I haven't advocated as I'm so deeply attached to the Genesis Wave version), but this is just my opinion
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
Definitely test this out and report back. Although I'm not in the Chord camp, I'd like to see how this fares and would be more than happy to make additions to the primer if this is successful.
Actually, I'd like to see more of this; if you have ideas, then test them out. The decks, as you see them now, have come about as a result of a lot of testing and playing. I've been playing this deck since about December, so I've put a lot of miles in with this deck (I'm on my third set of sleeves with it!), and I've tested a lot of different cards in my build. Theorizing is great, and I love the discussion, but if you have the opportunity to test out something new online or in paper, please do so and report back
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I've seen people mention this in the old thread and now this one about possibly decking themselves with a big wave by hitting too many selkies/regal force. Genesis Wave is a may ability. You don't have to put everything you flip over into play. I've done it before where I flipped over the deck and then just put all the card drawers in the bin (and you know killed them with Hoof Power). Just wanted to make sure that people reading this primer know that.
Also, thanks for the primer. I've been playing this deck off and on for a few months and it is hilarious to see the look on people's faces when you pick up 20+ cards from the deck and plop them onto the battlefield. An being able to just top deck something silly (like Prime/Wave) after going empty handed is demoralizing for some people.
Yes, Genesis Wave is a MAY ability, and that's sometimes lost on people. I have found myself, at times, not doing my math properly and just putting EVERYTHING into play, resulting in losses that shouldn't be losses because of Wistful Selkie and Regal Force ETB effects.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me on Twitter
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
I'm just going to throw this out there as my opinion on Chord.
I look at this as a Chord vs Genesis Wave discussion, much like Genesis Wave vs Tooth and Nail. Tooth and Nail looks like a much better card than Genesis Wave at first glance; you can tutor for the exact cards you want and put them into play immediately, and for the same mana cost as a 6 card Genesis Wave. The thing about Genesis Wave is the flexibility, in that you can cast it for anywhere between 4 and 7 for value, and you can get something other than two creatures (land, enchantments, and planeswalkers). Sometimes tutoring up two creatures isn't what you want to be doing because it doesn't win you the game, whereas you can start to chain Genesis Waves and win the game almost on the spot.
So enough about Tooth and Nail, let's talk Chord of Calling.
I see the appeal of Chord; it's instant speed and let's us play more of a toolbox. We can, in theory, play around our weaknesses by having one-ofs in our deck, and tutor them up at a moment's notice. We have the ability to generate a lot of mana, and running upwards of 20 creatures with CMC of 3 or less, we can utilize Convoke at the same time.
Here are the two problems I see with Chord
1) It's an X spell that just doesn't win us the game. Yes, we can tutor up cards like Elesh Norn or Craterhoof Behemoth, but it just doesn't out and out win us the game. If I've got an X spell and the ability to run X up through the roof (either mana or Convoke), I want something that will win me the game on the spot.
A simple comparison. Let's call X=8. If I Chord, I grab Craterhoof. It comes into play, gives the team +X/+X. Great, but how big is X going to be? 2? 3? 4? Likely not that big. Further, if I tap any of my creatures to use Convoke (a definite plus for Chord), I lose them as attackers. Now what happens if I Genesis Wave for 8? I get up to 8 new permanents, one of which could be Craterhoof. I might also hit 7 other creatures, which makes my Craterhoof pump at least +7/+7 (so now I have a 12/12 trampling Behemoth, plus whatever other creatures attack). I could also hit Garruk, or a Nykthos, and keep on going. Eternal Witness lets me chain Waves, so the explosiveness of the Genesis Wave > the precision of the Chord of Calling
2) Dead cards. If we go the toolbox route, there's the likelihood of us having dead cards in our hand. Inferno Titan with only one red source? Elesh Norn with only one White source? Chord of Calling without mana dorks? What about these cards in your opening hand?
I'm not saying that there's not a spot for Chord, and maybe it's more of a midrange style deck (which is what I haven't advocated as I'm so deeply attached to the Genesis Wave version), but this is just my opinion
i think i can address these points. let's give it a go.
1) just like genesis wave getting incrementally better and having value even when X is small, chord has the same incrementality. the instant speed aspect is also part of this value. fetching a spellskite or thrun early in the game is perfectly legitimate, and in no way detracts from the ultimate gameplan of casting a big genesis wave.
X spells don't necessarily have to win you the game. and you can't always have a genesis wave in your hand when you've got oodles of mana. you need another option, and chord is the best.
also, i'd argue that most of the larger creatures you can fetch off a chord in my list *do* win you the game - just not immediately.
also i don't think i'd chord for craterhoof ever. in fact i don't even think it's worth running in my version. Elesh Norn being basically an overrun and wrath in one package means i can chord it up in their turn and then swing for lethal with Norn and any mana dorks i've got on board. it works. citing craterhoof in your example was purposefully picking on an example that obviously doesn't work. also saying "but what if i had genesis wave in my hand instead" is magical christmasland syndrome. you only have 4 Waves in the deck. my deck has 3 Waves and 4 Chords. they aren't mutually exclusive and don't replace each other in my version of the deck. in your scenario, you would probably just be drawing another enchant-land instead of chord. that's arguably much worse. i run both, so it's not an "either/or" comparision. and we can both agree tooth and nail is bad.
2) i'm honestly not worried about dead cards. between garruk, birds, hierarch and fetchlands hitting shocks i think the deck can reliably get what it needs. sure a bird can get bolted, and pyroclasm is a thing, but then for those situations we've got chord in response, and plenty of mono green cards to play. in my version there are three cards in the maindeck which aren't green. linvala, Norn and inferno titan. three cards out of sixty is fine for this deck.
if i felt like it was a problem i'd up the Stomping Ground count to 4, and temple garden to 4. i wouldn't have any issues doing that.
in fact i might drop the raging ravine for a rugged prairie as it solves all the issues you mention. sound good?
as for cards in your opener, i can usually cast them by turn 3 (which is when most other decks start doing something interesting) so i haven't had any issues as of yet. the high concentration of mana dorks in the deck has meant dork-wall-wall-> turn 3 chord for X= 6 has been a pretty spectacular play which occurs regularly. if you draw a garruk and a nykthos it's obviously even better. the best part is it sets you up for a big turn 4 combo and puts your opponent behind even without a genesis wave. turn 3 inferno titan? turn 3 primeval titan? this deck is insane.
seriously though, build my list. try it. it seems to work fairly well from what i can tell. sure, sometimes our opponents get the nut draw, but that's always going to happen regardless of what you play. the trick is to be able to break grindy games in your favour (we can) and when you're behind, have outs and ways to blow out your opponent or stop them in their tracks (we do). having 7 win conditions is better than 4, especially when 4 of your win conditions double up as instant-speed utility to build your game plan.
i guess that's the point i'm making. chord is just as much as a win condition as wave. it's not as flashy, but it wins. and until the turn you go off, it doubles as essentially the best utility in all of modern, outside of cryptic command. in a deck which makes so much mana early in the game, can you even afford NOT to run chord? it's probably the best card in the deck! versatility is key. if your wincon is also your utility card you know you're onto a winner.
I'm just going to throw this out there as my opinion on Chord.
I look at this as a Chord vs Genesis Wave discussion, much like Genesis Wave vs Tooth and Nail. Tooth and Nail looks like a much better card than Genesis Wave at first glance; you can tutor for the exact cards you want and put them into play immediately, and for the same mana cost as a 6 card Genesis Wave. The thing about Genesis Wave is the flexibility, in that you can cast it for anywhere between 4 and 7 for value, and you can get something other than two creatures (land, enchantments, and planeswalkers). Sometimes tutoring up two creatures isn't what you want to be doing because it doesn't win you the game, whereas you can start to chain Genesis Waves and win the game almost on the spot.
So enough about Tooth and Nail, let's talk Chord of Calling.
I see the appeal of Chord; it's instant speed and let's us play more of a toolbox. We can, in theory, play around our weaknesses by having one-ofs in our deck, and tutor them up at a moment's notice. We have the ability to generate a lot of mana, and running upwards of 20 creatures with CMC of 3 or less, we can utilize Convoke at the same time.
Here are the two problems I see with Chord
1) It's an X spell that just doesn't win us the game. Yes, we can tutor up cards like Elesh Norn or Craterhoof Behemoth, but it just doesn't out and out win us the game. If I've got an X spell and the ability to run X up through the roof (either mana or Convoke), I want something that will win me the game on the spot.
A simple comparison. Let's call X=8. If I Chord, I grab Craterhoof. It comes into play, gives the team +X/+X. Great, but how big is X going to be? 2? 3? 4? Likely not that big. Further, if I tap any of my creatures to use Convoke (a definite plus for Chord), I lose them as attackers. Now what happens if I Genesis Wave for 8? I get up to 8 new permanents, one of which could be Craterhoof. I might also hit 7 other creatures, which makes my Craterhoof pump at least +7/+7 (so now I have a 12/12 trampling Behemoth, plus whatever other creatures attack). I could also hit Garruk, or a Nykthos, and keep on going. Eternal Witness lets me chain Waves, so the explosiveness of the Genesis Wave > the precision of the Chord of Calling
2) Dead cards. If we go the toolbox route, there's the likelihood of us having dead cards in our hand. Inferno Titan with only one red source? Elesh Norn with only one White source? Chord of Calling without mana dorks? What about these cards in your opening hand?
I'm not saying that there's not a spot for Chord, and maybe it's more of a midrange style deck (which is what I haven't advocated as I'm so deeply attached to the Genesis Wave version), but this is just my opinion
I totally agree with you on many points! However I think you should already know, that:
With Nykthos and devotion on board, Genesis Wave > Chord of Calling
Without Nykthos but with devotion(creatures) on board, Genesis Wave < Chord of Calling
Without Nykthos and without devotion(creatures) on board, Genesis Wave ? Chord of Calling:
Assume we have 4 mana. Genesis Wave for 1 does nothing. Chord for 1 allows you to get Arbor Elf or Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise. First one ramps from 4 -> 5 at minimum, with land drop and/or utopia sprawl even more. Second and First fixes your mana.
Assume we have 5 mana. Genesis Wave for 2 does nothing. Chord for 2 gives us: Scavenging Ooze (probably after board) that has a chance of dominating board position. Elvish Visionary / Coaling Oracle gives us guaranted card (something that Wave for 2 doesnt do)
Assume we have 6 mana. Genesis Wave for 3 has a chance of hiting card advantage 3 drop and some mana. Chord for 3 gives us guaranted Selkie / Witness / Archdruid / Courser.
Assume we have 7 mana. Genesis Wave for 4 hits mayority of our deck. Chord still goes for 3 most of the time, or maybe Polukranos or Restoration Angel if you have anything on board.
So Wave > Chord for >6 mana. Wave < Chord for <6 Mana. I think for 6 mana it is close.
I would play minimum amount of "silver bullets" with Chord of Calling, and probably only in sideboard. Only good in almost any matchups are Scavenging Ooze, Polukranos and Restoration Angel and Ezuri, Renegade Leader in elf version. I dissagree with purklefluff about others: I dont think Thrun is any good in modern, dont like idea of main deck Linvala (much rather play Restoration Angel), Elesh Norn, Inferno Titan, Spellskite or Obstinate Baloth, as they dont go well with this kind of deck. I think I should qoute DarkestMage, when I asked about my deck on his stream: "If you want to get to use Chord of Calling for so many maindeck 1 offs, why dont just play pod?". I totally agree with it. Purklefluff, I think your deck would just look better if you would just to play pod.
Don't get me wrong, I play what I call "Hate-offs" in sideboard, but that is because I play Both Chord and Command to fetch them. They just give your deck another dimension to work with, and virtually I have ~6-7 additional copies of them if you count both Chord and Command. I however dont overload on them, as you can't reuse them in similar way as pod can. If you draw stuff like Linvala vs Storm it is just a dead card. Similar to Thrun vs Twin. It does nothing, as they would just combo you off or command it while bashing in the air.
As I said before, we have 3 camps currently:
1. Genesis Wave + Primeval Command
2. Genesis Wave + Chord of Calling
3. Primeval Command + Chord of Calling
i agree that chord of calling is a powerful tutor that let us find answer for some match-up that we are weak in, my thoughts is with chord of calling silver bullet approach, we are going to play more like melira pod, at least that is how i felt about the direction that chord is bringing us into. currently, i am playing the primal wave version. i see that versatility and the multiple angle of attack it have within itself. with regards to chord of calling, i felt it will dilute the synergy it have with genesis wave. i felt that chord of calling version is an different archetype compared to primal wave. we may have the same mana ramp strategy, however, after the mana ramp, the game plan start to change. genesis wave tend to win by quantity and value gain through wave and have a swarm mentality whereas chord of calling is a quality and solution based strategy where a single card can turn the tide. with such a different game plan, it is not correct to compare orange and apple. chord of calling might be more suitable for a meta where you know what you are going to most likely face while primal wave is more tuned to open meta.
I would play minimum amount of "silver bullets" with Chord of Calling, and probably only in sideboard. Only good in almost any matchups are Scavenging Ooze, Polukranos and Restoration Angel and Ezuri, Renegade Leader in elf version. I dissagree with purklefluff about others: I dont think Thrun is any good in modern, dont like idea of main deck Linvala (much rather play Restoration Angel), Elesh Norn, Inferno Titan, Spellskite or Obstinate Baloth, as they dont go well with this kind of deck. I think I should qoute DarkestMage, when I asked about my deck on his stream: "If you want to get to use Chord of Calling for so many maindeck 1 offs, why dont just play pod?". I totally agree with it. Purklefluff, I think your deck would just look better if you would just to play pod.
ok. i hope you can back up some statements there, because i have a few points i disagree on, with this paragraph alone.
1) polukranos in modern; it's not the "good in every matchup" that you so stated. it could be a potential 1-of, and left unchecked it's fine. but in terms of inevitability and enabling you to "go off" and protect your walkers, both thrun and baloth are miles better.
2) same goes for Ezuri. i don't see him being "good in almost any matchup". he doesn't do anything by himself at all.
3) restoration angel is typically awful by itself and situationally excellent with some kind of insane-value enter-the-battlefield effects. i don't see it doing anything here at all, although i personally like the card.
4) scavenging ooze is ok, but really it's only a sideboard card here. and it's only really usable for graveyard-matters matchups, not an all-star.
a) thrun is played in many sideboards, some maindecks and generally sees a lot of play in Tier 1 decks in modern. if you don't think he's good in the modern format, you need to go and watch some coverage, read some deck techs, i dunno what to say here. the evidence speaks volumes on how good he is. tier 1 playable, and he gives decent devotion? he's a surefire hit in this deck. he also combats one of the hardest matchups the deck has (control) so i think it's pretty important to give him a slot.
b) linvala. here are the decks that flat out lose to linvala if they can't draw into removal - Affinity, Pod, Splinter Twin.
and here's the decks that while they don't necessarily lose, they are hurt a lot - Jund, hatebears, zoo, Kibler's Naya, Griselbrand reanimator, plus any other random decks that play mana dorks, scavenging ooze or kiki-jiki.
she's also a 3/4 flyer. she'll steal games.
c) elesh norn is the single most effective hate card against the greatest number of tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks in the entire modern cardpool. you go and try to find me a better hate card for 7 mana or less, tutorable with chord of calling. you can't =P. if we're going to have a little toolboxing in the deck, she's the one card i'd make space for over any others.
d) inferno titan beats pod, jund, splinter twin and all the creature based decks. and it'll do it at instant speed if you have a chord. how is this bad? scapeshift plays 2 of them in their sideboard because they are the best, most aggressive thing you can do if you're ramping.
e) spellskite beats affinity, twin, scapeshift, bogles, TRON, pod, the list goes on. for X=2 off a chord you can preserve/protect your board state EoT before comboing off. seems legit to me.
f) obstinate baloth patches the deck's weaknesses while at the same time being an excellent devotion enabler and a great threat on board. it's basically the last piece of the puzzle. i'd consider running at least 1 in the main no matter what, if you have chords in the list.
also i don't want to play pod. Chord is much more powerful in this deck than it could ever be in pod because of the incredible ramp we have available. and last i checked i had chosen a very minimal compliment of toolbox creatures that don't necessarily dilute the deck at all.
i'd rather have these in my deck than any number of selkies and bad-by-themselves devotion cards. by being too single minded on a certain strategy, those devotion-heavy creatures dilute the deck more than my suggested toolbox creatures ever would. i see the same deckbuilding strategies employed by the young schoolkids at my local store. they are so eager to get their combination of cards going that they forget decks need resilience, good individual card-quality, answers, powerful topdecks and things like removal or disruption. if you ignore this need, then the nykthos deck won't ever be anything more than a tier-2 deck with some lucky finishes.
based on your evaluation of those cards above in the quote, i call into question your analysis of modern as a format, and what's viable.
your arguments about them being dead cards is also empty. saying linvala is a dead card vs. storm doesn't take account of what you'd be running instead. you're not going to have another genesis wave in linvala's slot. it'll probably just be a selkie or something, which is just as bad against storm. at least if you know you're playing against storm you can choose not to chord linvala out, and instead get aggressive with your plays into a huge genesis wave. the key to having these cards is that they give you choices. only having one line of play makes your deck cumbersome. it means it won't respond well to a variety of decks because you'll just try and do the same thing every time and when you don't draw a perfect hand, you'll have no way back into the game when your opponent capitalises on it.
even if you can make lots of mana, you're stuck until you draw a wave. if there are chords in the deck as well, it basically doubles your chances of drawing a win condition. this is important.
also, in my version, garruk often represents lethal damage on turn 4. that's pretty important too. jund decks are employing this strategy because it's that good.
anyway i didn't come here for theorycrafting or an argument. i came to help refine and improve a deck which looks to me to be the most exciting upcoming deck. i found myself in a position where i was able to observe and discern some ways in which the current decks were selling themselves short, and i presented a considered alternative taking into account the weaknesses of the deck in its current form, as well as the strengths of some of the cards available to it. to be told that "thrun is bad" or whatever is kind of weak, dude. let's have a proper discussion because bickering doesn't help anyone, and empty statements like that only get people irritated.
the REAL comparison, the "either/or" is as follows:
do you play sub-par 2/2s that draw you a card and provide some devotion, OR do you play chord of calling, which draws you exactly what you need.
why do you think i dropped down to 3 eternal witness? because by itself it's a terrible card. it needs other stuff to make it good, and when you topdeck it you feel bad. the same goes for all the other "construct a wonky combo" cards, put in the deck like components of a piece of IKEA furniture. if one bit's not there or it gets disrupted, the whole thing falls apart.
fine responses. i like courser instead of baloth just fine.
maybe i'd run a split. if i'm honest i'd kind of forgotten about courser and only remembered finks (which probably isn't that good here).
mm.
ok so i'll revise my list slightly. i still think thrun is an important 1-of. but dropping baloth for courser gives an interesting free slot in the deck. i can see jamming an extra elvish visionary because it's been good so far. better, at least, than a 2/2 for 3. at least it gets you through the top cards of your deck quicker, which is what we really want.
ok so my 1-ofs would be as follows:
1x spellskite
1x courser
1x thrun (mostly because he wrecks control and is a very "safe" devotion source)
1x inferno titan (or wurmcoil engine)
1x primeval titan
1x elesh norn.
there. that seems more condensed. the primeval, courser and thrun are all good devotion enablers so they hardly count as toolbox creatures. it's really just inferno and elesh that are the singleton hate cards here. i still really like inferno in the main because he hates on so many of the decks right now. you could arguably switch it up for wurmcoil engine and it'd be equally fine. that means less of a red splash which is pretty key.
and i still think 1x shriekmaw in the board is inspired. ncie card there for certain matchups.
i might also have a switcheroo and go 3x chord and 4x wave. chord still seems like the best pre-wave tactic. and slamming an early elesh norn is just back-breaking. but the combo win needs to be topdecked with fairly high regularity so 3/4 split seems good. it could change back, so i'll test the numbers thoroughly.
cheers for the response. i'll post an updated decklist over the next 24 hours after testing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
1) polukranos in modern; it's not the "good in every matchup" that you so stated. it could be a potential 1-of, and left unchecked it's fine. but in terms of inevitability and enabling you to "go off" and protect your walkers, both thrun and baloth are miles better.
I dont understand what is your point about protecting your walkers while comparing it to baloth. Baloth dies to same stuff that polukranos. I dont even care when they are attacking my garruk, and I am not playing any other planeswalker. I think I have much bigger "inevitability and enabling to "go off"" with Polukranos than Thrun or Baloth, as both cant pass goyf, both cant pass numerous blockers, both cant interact with flyers.
2) same goes for Ezuri. i don't see him being "good in almost any matchup". he doesn't do anything by himself at all.
I am just quoting CurdBros 1 off, which seems much better option for elf heavy version than stuff like Baloth.
3) restoration angel is typically awful by itself and situationally excellent with some kind of insane-value enter-the-battlefield effects. i don't see it doing anything here at all, although i personally like the card.
It recycles itself / protects important mana generator / blocks flyers. Not saying it is best card, but it works for every matchup, something that Linvala / Spellskite / Baloth / Thrun isnt doing.
a) thrun is played in many sideboards, some maindecks and generally sees a lot of play in Tier 1 decks in modern. if you don't think he's good in the modern format, you need to go and watch some coverage, read some deck techs, i dunno what to say here. the evidence speaks volumes on how good he is. tier 1 playable, and he gives decent devotion? he's a surefire hit in this deck. he also combats one of the hardest matchups the deck has (control) so i think it's pretty important to give him a slot.
I am not basing this on my own testing, but also others (for example my local friend who was twice at ProTour), plus if you read some articles, watch streams, such as Michaels Jacobs, read pro's twitters (Tomoharu Saito) you will see that most of those people dont like Thrun. Thrun is just too slow. It is too small for modern, where you can see numerous resilient creatures such as kitchen finks, sweapers such as wrath of god, sacrifice effects such as liliana, discard such as thoughtseize and his ultimate nightmare - tarmogoyf. You might dissagre with it, I am just stating my oppinion and backing it up with some pros thoughts. Jund/Rock players are so desparate, that they play Garruk Wildspeaker / Garruk Relentless / Desecration Demon / Token making Vampire in place of Thrun.
c) elesh norn is the single most effective hate card against the greatest number of tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks in the entire modern cardpool. you go and try to find me a better hate card for 7 mana or less, tutorable with chord of calling. you can't =P. if we're going to have a little toolboxing in the deck, she's the one card i'd make space for over any others.
You dont have to tell me it, I started playing with Elesh around May, also started playing with it in maindeck, however after testing I found I dont want too many expensive spells in the main - so I cut Elesh Norn while moving it to the sideboard while keeping Craterhoof as a win con. I am sorry, I just didnt notice that you are not playing Craterhoof. Then Elesh Norn is a fine maindeck choice, however remember it is conditional wincon, as opponent can still win after you find it.
d) inferno titan beats pod, jund, splinter twin and all the creature based decks. and it'll do it at instant speed if you have a chord. how is this bad? scapeshift plays 2 of them in their sideboard because they are the best, most aggressive thing you can do if you're ramping.
I dont understand how it does beat jund, as it will kill confidant / act as bolt and then die to slaughter pact/putrefy/terminate/pulse. Left unchecked it will probably be good, however it is also true to primeval titan. vs Pod it will probably act as a 3 mana fork bolt every turn as they will just chump block it for a rest of a game, however it still is good. Is it better than Primeval Titan fetching Nykthos / Kessig? I dont know, however probably not. I doubt it will do anything vs twin, it will either be countered or you will die to combo before having time to cast it. Even when it resolve it wont stop them of comboing of as it is still ~2 turn clock (assuming they cant tap it somehow). I think you dont understand why they are playing Inferno Titan in sideboard in Scapeshift. They do it because everyone is sideboarding out removal vs them so titan cant be answered, and that way they fight Scapeshift hate.
Can you share more about this? I think this card can see potential, however I dont really get how it is so good vs those matchups, so maybe I am missing something. Please share us your thoughts.
b) linvala. here are the decks that flat out lose to linvala if they can't draw into removal - Affinity, Pod, Splinter Twin.
and here's the decks that while they don't necessarily lose, they are hurt a lot - Jund, hatebears, zoo, Kibler's Naya, Griselbrand reanimator, plus any other random decks that play mana dorks, scavenging ooze or kiki-jiki.
she's also a 3/4 flyer. she'll steal games.
She is very good vs a deck that she is very good, however still not unbeatable. Twin is turn faster, vs affinity it can be also too slow. Pod can just find shriekmaw / kill with township. I however understand this card, and can see running it in a maindeck similar how pod is playing it right now. Vs wrong opponent she is just a 3/4 flyer for 2WW (which might be hard sometimes). Is it bad? No. Is it ideal? Also no.
e) spellskite beats affinity, twin, scapeshift, bogles, TRON, pod, the list goes on. for X=2 off a chord you can preserve/protect your board state EoT before comboing off. seems legit to me.
It doesnt bit affinity (it only works vs 1 creature). It is very good vs twin. It does nothing vs scapeshift combo finish - they can just kill you next turn or bounce it turn before. It beats boogles, however you would need to have it on turn 2 most of the time (and fastest turn to chord for it would be turn 3 in your version). It might not be enought, however I love it there. I dont really know what it does vs tron - stopping one Karn activation?. I dont know what it does vs Pod. If they have combo it does nothing. How does it protect my boardstate end of turn before comboing off? I dont get this part. It stops 1 spot removal at best. I think this is a very good creature to have, however I dont know if it is worth having it in a maindeck.
f) obstinate baloth patches the deck's weaknesses while at the same time being an excellent devotion enabler and a great threat on board. it's basically the last piece of the puzzle. i'd consider running at least 1 in the main no matter what, if you have chords in the list.
This deck weekness it the fact that it looses to fast combo, I think everyone already stated it. I have very good win % vs any matchup that want to control or outgrind me, such as Scapeshift, Jund, BG, UWR, Tron, Pod, very very good vs burn and zoo. 50-50 vs Merfolks, GW Hatebears and Affinity, those games depents how fast they are. Very bad vs fast combo such as Twin/Eggs/Add Nauseum, Boogles. For me this card doesnt do anything vs bad matchups, so I dont know what deck's weakness it patches. It is also quote bad devotion enabler - 2 for 4 mana is quite bad ratio.
This toolbox might be small, however I still think 7 our of ~40 cards is too much. I dont hate playing Elesh Norn and Linvala in a maindeck (as both of them are very good choices in a current metagame - I get you that, I run both in a md and sb them a lot), I however dont like other choices. To me Inferno Titan is bad Primeval Titan, Baloth is worse than Polukranos, while the other is worse than ooze. I dont like Thrun, and I think spellskite hits not enought matchups. Remember we cant pod those cards away similar as Pod can - drawing those 1 off that are dead in matchup might really hurt.
i'd rather have these in my deck than any number of selkies and bad-by-themselves devotion cards. by being too single minded on a certain strategy, those devotion-heavy creatures dilute the deck more than my suggested toolbox creatures ever would. i see the same deckbuilding strategies employed by the young schoolkids at my local store. they are so eager to get their combination of cards going that they forget decks need resilience, good individual card-quality, answers, powerful topdecks and things like removal or disruption. if you ignore this need, then the nykthos deck won't ever be anything more than a tier-2 deck with some lucky finishes.
Cant agree more - I was one of the people that were saying not to go all in on certain aproaches. I cut BTE, trimmed selkies, trimmed bigger guys. Added more 1 mana acceleration. Started playing Hate-offs for Chord, removal for bad and close matchups, more midrange aproach with Resto Angels and Coursers to get as much value, stop their agression and win from there with titan/kessig/command. I think we are talking about simmilar things, however we want to aproach them differently. Remember I dont hate your choices - I just think that other options might be better.
based on your evaluation of those cards above in the quote, i call into question your analysis of modern as a format, and what's viable.
your arguments about them being dead cards is also empty. saying linvala is a dead card vs. storm doesn't take account of what you'd be running instead. you're not going to have another genesis wave in linvala's slot. it'll probably just be a selkie or something, which is just as bad against storm. at least if you know you're playing against storm you can choose not to chord linvala out, and instead get aggressive with your plays into a huge genesis wave. the key to having these cards is that they give you choices. only having one line of play makes your deck cumbersome. it means it won't respond well to a variety of decks because you'll just try and do the same thing every time and when you don't draw a perfect hand, you'll have no way back into the game when your opponent capitalises on it.
even if you can make lots of mana, you're stuck until you draw a wave. if there are chords in the deck as well, it basically doubles your chances of drawing a win condition. this is important.
also, in my version, garruk often represents lethal damage on turn 4. that's pretty important too. jund decks are employing this strategy because it's that good.
Again I cant agree more. However if you draw said Linvala vs Storm is close to a dead card, as it doesnt provide either big clock/hate/devotion for other cards/digging power. I wont say I would change it with selkie - it might be something like this, or oracle/visionary. However they would help me goldfish, while Linvala cant do it.
I am also not discarding Chord Power - I am totally agreeing on your point that it gives deck an additional dimmension of attack or way to fetch wincon. I even think it is better than Genesis Wave ;P
To be honest if you would like to have a hate card vs storm you would need either Eidolon of Rhetoric (VERY GOOD card vs mayority of combo decks), Reclamation Sage(hits only 1 piece of combo) or Scavenging Ooze (hits 2 pieces), but they might still not be enought.
I think it was GnuHouse who stated it first somewhere in a old thread - you should try to win a game 1 based on your own deck, not based on what you are playing against. So in GnuHouses case it would be fast Wave, in my it would be slower(by ~1 turn) lock. That is why most people here chose Craterhoof as a finisher of choice - because it gets them dead, regardless of a matchup, and does it fast (eg. same turn).
anyway i didn't come here for theorycrafting or an argument. i came to help refine and improve a deck which looks to me to be the most exciting upcoming deck. i found myself in a position where i was able to observe and discern some ways in which the current decks were selling themselves short, and i presented a considered alternative taking into account the weaknesses of the deck in its current form, as well as the strengths of some of the cards available to it. to be told that "thrun is bad" or whatever is kind of weak, dude. let's have a proper discussion because bickering doesn't help anyone, and empty statements like that only get people irritated.
Again, cant agree more. I hope my explanation would be enought, if needed I can back them up by my results from either MTGO or matches played in a most competitive shop in Warsaw. Also I am sorry by my point on Thrun, I just think I posted here why I dont like this card in modern (I also played it as my Chord target at some point. Later I just found I like other options more as it didnt do what I thought it would do - killing control fast. It was too slow for Scapeshift, and UWR commanded it or took hit, and then cast Wrath of Gof. Also I found I dont need help vs control or scapeshift as those matchups were quite good).
the REAL comparison, the "either/or" is as follows:
do you play sub-par 2/2s that draw you a card and provide some devotion, OR do you play chord of calling, which draws you exactly what you need.
Ok, I think it is first time I dissageed with you for some time :).
To me it isn't Chord vs Selkie. To me it is some of the Chords targets vs stuff like Selkie. I love Chord, and again I will say I like it much more than Genesis Wave - getting exactly what you need is awsome. Selkie in my and GnuHouse version and Elvish Visionary/Coaling Oracle in CurdBros version is an enabler. Chord/Wave/Command is a finisher. I think we should compare cards like that. Similar how you play Wall of Roots and better 1 drops in BoPs/Hierarchs, and most of us play Arbor Elf/Utopia sprawls. Those card do the same thing - accelerate your mana. We dont compare Wall of Roots to Genesis Wave - one is an enabler (either accelerator/devotion/card advantage), another is finisher (titans, hoofs, kessig, wave, command, chord).
why do you think i dropped down to 3 eternal witness? because by itself it's a terrible card. it needs other stuff to make it good, and when you topdeck it you feel bad. the same goes for all the other "construct a wonky combo" cards, put in the deck like components of a piece of IKEA furniture. if one bit's not there or it gets disrupted, the whole thing falls apart.
Here almost I may feel offended :frown:. Witness is one of my favourite cards in this deck and most powerful. It is a one that gets discarded/countered the most. It needs anything to be good, it is still good with stuff like a fetchland when you need it. When I topdeck it I feel awsome, as I can reuse all of my killed/discarded/used awsome cards that either improve my mana development/get me another value/let me kill them. To me it is one of the cards that make this deck soo resilient to distruption.
Ok, that is a long post. Hope I answered all your points, so please interact with us more, to make this deck better. I think everyone here has their own experiences/opinions/thoughts, and using a hivemind mentality will make this deck stronger.
1 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Primeval Titan
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
10 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Stomping Ground
1 Verdant Catacombs
Other Spells (15)
4 Blood Moon
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Primal Command
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Acidic Slime
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Beast Within
2 Choke
2 Creeping Corrosion
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
What do you guys think of this? It took 10th on an Online Premier just over a week ago. I'm asking because I don't know too much about Modern but I do love Blood Moon (especially being able to cast it on turn 2) and looking at decks it is what actually led me to this thread.
On Big Green Idiots
On Xenagos, Emrakul, and Tooth and Nail
On Regal Force
As a side note, I did run Regal Force in earlier versions of the deck. I found it to be unimpressive, not to mention a little dangerous with the Wave. I've decked myself more than once because I hit a Regal Force after a big Wave, only to have to draw more cards than were available.
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Also, thanks for the primer. I've been playing this deck off and on for a few months and it is hilarious to see the look on people's faces when you pick up 20+ cards from the deck and plop them onto the battlefield. An being able to just top deck something silly (like Prime/Wave) after going empty handed is demoralizing for some people.
Caspian,
You are exactly right...Cavern of Souls is unreal. In the control match-up it essentially wins the game. I used to run 3 (and at one point a 4th in the sideboard) but I've since ran less. I would like to fit one more in the sideboard; but have to test to see where I can make the change.
Purklepuff,
I agree that Wall of Roots is amazing with Chord. I still like the Arbor Elf + Utopia Sprawl combo in most cases over Elvish Mystic + Birds of Paradise because:
1. Arbor Elf can untap a land to be utilized later upon "killing" (where an Mana-dork's mana would have to be used in the phase it is destroyed).
2. Utopia Sprawl can be used at "instant speed" as long as it is cast on turn two or later.
3. Utopia Sprawl survives after a Pyroclasm or Anger of the Gods.
Having said this, there are almost never any situations when a card or a set of cards are "strictly better" than others...and you know better than most what works best for your deck. Wall of Roots is a powerhouse with Chord; as is having more creatures....so you may be absolutely right that in your build they are better. As always, testing is the only way to know. It's crazy how much testing it takes just to see if one little change is worth it! Love the new build, btw. Spellskite is the best "hate" card there is in the format (in my opinion).
Jankydude,
What an interesting build. Looks great! I don't know if you've seen it, but Gerry Thompson discussed your build on SCG.com (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28920_Daily-Digest-Hateful-Devotion.html). While it wasn't an extremely in-depth article; any time you get recognition from a Pro its something to be extremely proud of!
I like the idea of Blood Moon. I run Magus of the Moon in my board...but I can only imagine how devastating it must be to many opponents in the main board. Ruric Thar, the Unbowed as well. I love the idea of putting "side board" cards in the main. And Strangleroot Geist is such an awesome card. It's one I go back and fourth on and wish I could use.
Excited to see all of the different builds. I'll try to keep everything up to date on mine (i.e. matches I play, how it fairs against certain decks, etc.) as well. I'll also try to format it in a way that looks better (i.e. in the little "deck box" rather than a list).
4x Arbor Elf
4x Coiling Oracle
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Elvish Archdruid
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Primeval Titan
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
Enchantments
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Abundant Growth
Planeswalkers
2x Nissa Worldwaker
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Genesis Wave
3x Chord of Calling
Lands
1x Breeding Pool
2x Cavern of Souls
8x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Stomping Ground
2x Beast Within
2x Choke
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Elderscale Wurm
2x Magus of the Moon
2x Nature's Claim
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Spellskite
1x Cavern of Souls
Still working on certain items (like if I can add a 2nd Craterhoof Behemoth, sideboard options, etc.) but after relatively extensive testing I'm very happy with the current list. I am open and interested in discussing other options (including the Primal Command / Eternal Witness lock, etc.). I've found this to be the most competitive of the devotion builds I've brewed and tested thus far; but never want to close myself off to any ideas!
i think i prefer it to the other devotion-heavy-but-less-efficient cards that people have been running here.
i don't think you necessarily need to go nuts on the devotion thing. generally once you slam a garruk on the table you've got at least 5 or 6 devotion, which is enough (with untaps) to make (usually) upwards of 12 or 16 mana from a nykthos plus mana dorks. and that's on the same turn as you drop garruk.
i think going crazy heavy on the devotion is a win-more tactic and i'd like to see a side-by-side comparison of a more consistent build vs. the devotion-heavy builds i've been seeing.
my thoughts are that once you get off a wave, as long as it's at least 7-10 cards (so 10-13 mana paid. easy enough) you can usually just keep waving through your entire deck, because you'll most likely drop a second garruk and an eternal witness, to untap your nythos, get back your wave and cast it all again.
also, i think the strength of the deck going forward is as a toolbox deck (in the same vein as pod), except with a combo win. utilising our superior mana ramping to chord out hate cards is a real strategy. playing big green fatties like primalcrux is not. sorry for the stompy fans. i just don't see it cutting it against Jund or Twin.
but with more tweaking, i think we have a legit deck. the power of instant-speed elesh norn, grand cenobite is real. that deals with creature decks. what beats combo? ruric thar, the unbowed?
also finally, i came to the conclusion last night while testing that when you get up to 17(ish) or more mana, you kind of just want to cast genesis hydra and get the uncounterable win condition from your deck. having a wave countered in the late game when you're regularly getting 20 or more mana is a huge blowout against us. hydra gets around this by effectively just getting the best card in our deck from the top 20 cards, and there's nothing they can do about it. it's not as explosive, but it's more resilient. i think we need a healthy dose of both, which is why i'm running 3x genesis wave and 2x genesis hydra
If you would read a primer, you would see gnuhouse talking about my non-Genesis Wave version of a deck that run 2 Chord of Calling for most part, with all needed silver boolet spread in md/sb: Spellskite, Kataki, Linvala, Scavenging Ooze, Elesh Norn, Polukranos, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Sliver/Now Reclamation Sage. That aproach is best with Primal Command / Chord of Calling version, as a lot of those cards doesnt give you a lot of devotion. It will probably work the best with elf version of a deck: with Visionary and Oracle, as they work as mana with chord of calling.
I tried Acidic Slime and didnt like it. It doesnt do much, Other options are better most of the time. Remember it is correct to Chord of Calling on endstep for Eternal Witness getting back Chord. With Nykthos it gives you 3 more mana next turn.
Another solid post. Basicly you stated everything I was talking all along - going all-in on devotion (eg. running dead cards like BTE) isn't best option most of the time, as without this nykthos you dont have enough mana to do anything with it. Either my version (midrange value Command - Chord) or CurdBroses (elvish Wave - Chord version) is much more resilient. My midrange version can grind games, CurdBroses version has additional way of generating more mana (elvish archdruid).
I think we have consensus, that the most POWERFUL version of a deck is gnuhouses version (all-in devo Wave - Command).
Currently we have:
1. gnuhouse All-In Devotion (featuring burning-tree emissary, genesis wave, primal command)
2. CurdBros Elf Devotion (featuring elvish archdruid, chord of calling, genesis wave)
3. Pedros Midrange Devotion (featuring midrange cards such as path to exile, courser of krupnix, restoration angel, primal command, chord of calling)
Notice POWERLEVEL is going from the top to the bottom, while RESILIENCY from a bottom to a top. We also see it how me and gnuhouse is trying to beat decks like twin or storm - eg. turn 4 combo decks with interaction. He tries to race it. I try to interrupt their combo and win from that point. I think CurdBros version is exactly in a middle, and I like it, even currently trying to make elf Command-Chord version. However I dont think it is possible to incorporate 3 splashes (red for kessig, blue for oracle, white for sideboard hate-offs) in a one build (might be possible with abundant growths)
@gnuhouse - your nickname starts without capital letter, I dont know if you like it - if you feel offended I will change it.
@CurdBros - can you share why you play only 3 Elvish Archdruid? (I didnt find it in your primer) Isnt he crucial to your build? Or you only need 1 and dont want to play more? Also concerning mana how often does Cavern on elf allows you to cast Oracle, and stops you from playing utopia spraw / good arbor elf? How often you name blue on utopia sprawl? Do you have problem on playing 2 Coiling Oracles on one turn? How often you fetch for Kessig / Nykthos, and do you have problems activating kessig at that point (eg. did abundant growth allow you to activate it).
@All.
I think if you want to play 3-4 Chord of Calling version, you need to play CurdBros version with 2 mana card draw engine. It is most resilient way. However we need to think what is a real core at this point and how many 1-offs we can afford to run / what could be cut to make slots for 1 offs. First we should think how many 1 drop accelerators and how many card draws we want in a deck.
the build focuses mainly on the ability to cast an early chord, and build from there. my thinking is that while devotion shouldn't be our single-minded gameplan (it adds too many bad cards to the deck) it should be a consideration.
for that reason, i think thrun, the last troll will be an important card for the deck, moving forward. it functions as a "safe" chord target, resilient to removal. you can often chord him out with mana up to regenerate him. he protects garruk, adds devotion. makes hell for control decks and beats for 4. i will always run 1. naturally drawing him is also fine.
i also think obstinate baloth becomes a 2-of maindeck choice with the prevalence of jund/GBx/WB decks at the moment. not to mention 8-rack making top table showings at PTQs. it gives us a solid beatdown plan, adds devotion. blocks for days. isn't easily removable and is a house against liliana.
also because this is a chord version of the deck, i'm going deep with creatures. this does make us vulnerable to pyroclam to a certain extent. but then if we can instant-speed chord into thrun or baloth (not hard) then we have an 'out' against that, which preserves our devotion count and advances the board in our favour.
here's the list:
4x noble hierarch
4x wall of roots
2x elvish visionary
3x eternal witness
4x garruk wildspeaker
4x chord of calling
3x genesis wave
1x spellskite
1x thrun, the last troll
2x obstinate baloth
1x linvala, keeper of silence
1x inferno titan
1x primeval titan
1x elesh norn, grand cenobite
3x temple garden
2x stomping ground
1x overgrown tomb
4x verdant catacombs
2x kessig wolf run
1x rugged prairie
7x forest
3x nature's claim (we hate blood moon)
2x ancient grudge
2x boseiju, who shelters all
1x spellskite
1x ethersworn canonist
1x relic of progenitus
1x inferno titan
1x shriekmaw
1x rakdos charm
2x slaughter games
so it seems like the deck has everything it needs.
answers to combo:
relic of progenitus (beats the graveyard strategies and shrinks goyfs)
spellskite (a second one in the board because of all the awesome interactions against a wide field of decks)
linvala, keeper of silence (hits pod, twin, resto, etc.)
ethersworn canonist (good off a chord)
slaughter games (possibly our best sideboard card - worth the splash, trust me. Tron is splashing for 3 of these in every sideboard, it's unreal).
shriekmaw (hits twin)
rakdos charm (hits twin/storm/living end/UWR/whatever. it's good)
elesh norn, grand cenobite (hits pod, twin etc.)
answers to creature strategies:
elesh norn, grand cenobite (the hate card to end all hate cards)
linvala, keeper of silence (also surprisingly good here)
thrun, the last troll (essential)
inferno titan (i put a second one in the board because it's a house)
obstinate baloth (obvious)
garruk wildspeaker
shriekmaw (awesome sideboard tech)
answers to control:
thrun, the last troll
inferno titan
spellskite
garruk wildspeaker
chord of calling (instant speed makes a big difference)
boseiju, who shelters all - this single card allows us to ignore the permission part of control and just go over the top of them, a bit like TRON does. improves our matchup hugely.
answers to Blood Moon:
3x nature's claim
ok. i'm laying the law here - we don't want a chord-able creature as our blood moon tech. if they hit a blood moon, we aren't casting any chord of callings (or it's much less likely at least). what we want against blood moon is a 1-mana instant speed answer, and we want three of them to maximise drawing one early. moon shuts us down like nothing else.
answers to grafdigger's cage:
again, we're running 3x nature's claim and a single ancient grudge to keep our opponents honest and attack their hate cards.
i think we have a solid matchup against affinity. our hate cards work against them pretty massively. linvala does some work against ravager and all the others.
anyway that's what i'd take to a PTQ if i was running nykthos green tomorrow. i wouldn't go for the worse-card-quality all-in version. i'd stick it out with the best hate cards in the game, and play the outvalue-your-opponent strategy.
i'm actually pretty proud of this list. it incorporates a lot of disparate ideas but makes them into something which looks competitive. testing needs to follow. maybe i'll break it out casually between rounds at the PTQ this weekend i'm attending (i'm running a tweaked brew of scapeshift. looking to crush)
peace out.
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
I look at this as a Chord vs Genesis Wave discussion, much like Genesis Wave vs Tooth and Nail. Tooth and Nail looks like a much better card than Genesis Wave at first glance; you can tutor for the exact cards you want and put them into play immediately, and for the same mana cost as a 6 card Genesis Wave. The thing about Genesis Wave is the flexibility, in that you can cast it for anywhere between 4 and 7 for value, and you can get something other than two creatures (land, enchantments, and planeswalkers). Sometimes tutoring up two creatures isn't what you want to be doing because it doesn't win you the game, whereas you can start to chain Genesis Waves and win the game almost on the spot.
So enough about Tooth and Nail, let's talk Chord of Calling.
I see the appeal of Chord; it's instant speed and let's us play more of a toolbox. We can, in theory, play around our weaknesses by having one-ofs in our deck, and tutor them up at a moment's notice. We have the ability to generate a lot of mana, and running upwards of 20 creatures with CMC of 3 or less, we can utilize Convoke at the same time.
Here are the two problems I see with Chord
1) It's an X spell that just doesn't win us the game. Yes, we can tutor up cards like Elesh Norn or Craterhoof Behemoth, but it just doesn't out and out win us the game. If I've got an X spell and the ability to run X up through the roof (either mana or Convoke), I want something that will win me the game on the spot.
A simple comparison. Let's call X=8. If I Chord, I grab Craterhoof. It comes into play, gives the team +X/+X. Great, but how big is X going to be? 2? 3? 4? Likely not that big. Further, if I tap any of my creatures to use Convoke (a definite plus for Chord), I lose them as attackers. Now what happens if I Genesis Wave for 8? I get up to 8 new permanents, one of which could be Craterhoof. I might also hit 7 other creatures, which makes my Craterhoof pump at least +7/+7 (so now I have a 12/12 trampling Behemoth, plus whatever other creatures attack). I could also hit Garruk, or a Nykthos, and keep on going. Eternal Witness lets me chain Waves, so the explosiveness of the Genesis Wave > the precision of the Chord of Calling
2) Dead cards. If we go the toolbox route, there's the likelihood of us having dead cards in our hand. Inferno Titan with only one red source? Elesh Norn with only one White source? Chord of Calling without mana dorks? What about these cards in your opening hand?
I'm not saying that there's not a spot for Chord, and maybe it's more of a midrange style deck (which is what I haven't advocated as I'm so deeply attached to the Genesis Wave version), but this is just my opinion
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Definitely test this out and report back. Although I'm not in the Chord camp, I'd like to see how this fares and would be more than happy to make additions to the primer if this is successful.
Actually, I'd like to see more of this; if you have ideas, then test them out. The decks, as you see them now, have come about as a result of a lot of testing and playing. I've been playing this deck since about December, so I've put a lot of miles in with this deck (I'm on my third set of sleeves with it!), and I've tested a lot of different cards in my build. Theorizing is great, and I love the discussion, but if you have the opportunity to test out something new online or in paper, please do so and report back
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
Yes, Genesis Wave is a MAY ability, and that's sometimes lost on people. I have found myself, at times, not doing my math properly and just putting EVERYTHING into play, resulting in losses that shouldn't be losses because of Wistful Selkie and Regal Force ETB effects.
Check out my blog and help me improve my game
Currently playing:
Standard BUG Control
Modern :UAffinity, GNyxWave
Legacy UBTezzAffinity
My Cube
i think i can address these points. let's give it a go.
1) just like genesis wave getting incrementally better and having value even when X is small, chord has the same incrementality. the instant speed aspect is also part of this value. fetching a spellskite or thrun early in the game is perfectly legitimate, and in no way detracts from the ultimate gameplan of casting a big genesis wave.
X spells don't necessarily have to win you the game. and you can't always have a genesis wave in your hand when you've got oodles of mana. you need another option, and chord is the best.
also, i'd argue that most of the larger creatures you can fetch off a chord in my list *do* win you the game - just not immediately.
also i don't think i'd chord for craterhoof ever. in fact i don't even think it's worth running in my version. Elesh Norn being basically an overrun and wrath in one package means i can chord it up in their turn and then swing for lethal with Norn and any mana dorks i've got on board. it works. citing craterhoof in your example was purposefully picking on an example that obviously doesn't work. also saying "but what if i had genesis wave in my hand instead" is magical christmasland syndrome. you only have 4 Waves in the deck. my deck has 3 Waves and 4 Chords. they aren't mutually exclusive and don't replace each other in my version of the deck. in your scenario, you would probably just be drawing another enchant-land instead of chord. that's arguably much worse. i run both, so it's not an "either/or" comparision. and we can both agree tooth and nail is bad.
2) i'm honestly not worried about dead cards. between garruk, birds, hierarch and fetchlands hitting shocks i think the deck can reliably get what it needs. sure a bird can get bolted, and pyroclasm is a thing, but then for those situations we've got chord in response, and plenty of mono green cards to play. in my version there are three cards in the maindeck which aren't green. linvala, Norn and inferno titan. three cards out of sixty is fine for this deck.
if i felt like it was a problem i'd up the Stomping Ground count to 4, and temple garden to 4. i wouldn't have any issues doing that.
in fact i might drop the raging ravine for a rugged prairie as it solves all the issues you mention. sound good?
as for cards in your opener, i can usually cast them by turn 3 (which is when most other decks start doing something interesting) so i haven't had any issues as of yet. the high concentration of mana dorks in the deck has meant dork-wall-wall-> turn 3 chord for X= 6 has been a pretty spectacular play which occurs regularly. if you draw a garruk and a nykthos it's obviously even better. the best part is it sets you up for a big turn 4 combo and puts your opponent behind even without a genesis wave. turn 3 inferno titan? turn 3 primeval titan? this deck is insane.
seriously though, build my list. try it. it seems to work fairly well from what i can tell. sure, sometimes our opponents get the nut draw, but that's always going to happen regardless of what you play. the trick is to be able to break grindy games in your favour (we can) and when you're behind, have outs and ways to blow out your opponent or stop them in their tracks (we do). having 7 win conditions is better than 4, especially when 4 of your win conditions double up as instant-speed utility to build your game plan.
i guess that's the point i'm making. chord is just as much as a win condition as wave. it's not as flashy, but it wins. and until the turn you go off, it doubles as essentially the best utility in all of modern, outside of cryptic command. in a deck which makes so much mana early in the game, can you even afford NOT to run chord? it's probably the best card in the deck! versatility is key. if your wincon is also your utility card you know you're onto a winner.
I totally agree with you on many points! However I think you should already know, that:
With Nykthos and devotion on board, Genesis Wave > Chord of Calling
Without Nykthos but with devotion(creatures) on board, Genesis Wave < Chord of Calling
Without Nykthos and without devotion(creatures) on board, Genesis Wave ? Chord of Calling:
Assume we have 4 mana. Genesis Wave for 1 does nothing. Chord for 1 allows you to get Arbor Elf or Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise. First one ramps from 4 -> 5 at minimum, with land drop and/or utopia sprawl even more. Second and First fixes your mana.
Assume we have 5 mana. Genesis Wave for 2 does nothing. Chord for 2 gives us: Scavenging Ooze (probably after board) that has a chance of dominating board position. Elvish Visionary / Coaling Oracle gives us guaranted card (something that Wave for 2 doesnt do)
Assume we have 6 mana. Genesis Wave for 3 has a chance of hiting card advantage 3 drop and some mana. Chord for 3 gives us guaranted Selkie / Witness / Archdruid / Courser.
Assume we have 7 mana. Genesis Wave for 4 hits mayority of our deck. Chord still goes for 3 most of the time, or maybe Polukranos or Restoration Angel if you have anything on board.
So Wave > Chord for >6 mana. Wave < Chord for <6 Mana. I think for 6 mana it is close.
I would play minimum amount of "silver bullets" with Chord of Calling, and probably only in sideboard. Only good in almost any matchups are Scavenging Ooze, Polukranos and Restoration Angel and Ezuri, Renegade Leader in elf version. I dissagree with purklefluff about others: I dont think Thrun is any good in modern, dont like idea of main deck Linvala (much rather play Restoration Angel), Elesh Norn, Inferno Titan, Spellskite or Obstinate Baloth, as they dont go well with this kind of deck. I think I should qoute DarkestMage, when I asked about my deck on his stream: "If you want to get to use Chord of Calling for so many maindeck 1 offs, why dont just play pod?". I totally agree with it. Purklefluff, I think your deck would just look better if you would just to play pod.
Don't get me wrong, I play what I call "Hate-offs" in sideboard, but that is because I play Both Chord and Command to fetch them. They just give your deck another dimension to work with, and virtually I have ~6-7 additional copies of them if you count both Chord and Command. I however dont overload on them, as you can't reuse them in similar way as pod can. If you draw stuff like Linvala vs Storm it is just a dead card. Similar to Thrun vs Twin. It does nothing, as they would just combo you off or command it while bashing in the air.
As I said before, we have 3 camps currently:
1. Genesis Wave + Primeval Command
2. Genesis Wave + Chord of Calling
3. Primeval Command + Chord of Calling
I think it depends on a playstyle.
ok. i hope you can back up some statements there, because i have a few points i disagree on, with this paragraph alone.
1) polukranos in modern; it's not the "good in every matchup" that you so stated. it could be a potential 1-of, and left unchecked it's fine. but in terms of inevitability and enabling you to "go off" and protect your walkers, both thrun and baloth are miles better.
2) same goes for Ezuri. i don't see him being "good in almost any matchup". he doesn't do anything by himself at all.
3) restoration angel is typically awful by itself and situationally excellent with some kind of insane-value enter-the-battlefield effects. i don't see it doing anything here at all, although i personally like the card.
4) scavenging ooze is ok, but really it's only a sideboard card here. and it's only really usable for graveyard-matters matchups, not an all-star.
a) thrun is played in many sideboards, some maindecks and generally sees a lot of play in Tier 1 decks in modern. if you don't think he's good in the modern format, you need to go and watch some coverage, read some deck techs, i dunno what to say here. the evidence speaks volumes on how good he is. tier 1 playable, and he gives decent devotion? he's a surefire hit in this deck. he also combats one of the hardest matchups the deck has (control) so i think it's pretty important to give him a slot.
b) linvala. here are the decks that flat out lose to linvala if they can't draw into removal - Affinity, Pod, Splinter Twin.
and here's the decks that while they don't necessarily lose, they are hurt a lot - Jund, hatebears, zoo, Kibler's Naya, Griselbrand reanimator, plus any other random decks that play mana dorks, scavenging ooze or kiki-jiki.
she's also a 3/4 flyer. she'll steal games.
c) elesh norn is the single most effective hate card against the greatest number of tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks in the entire modern cardpool. you go and try to find me a better hate card for 7 mana or less, tutorable with chord of calling. you can't =P. if we're going to have a little toolboxing in the deck, she's the one card i'd make space for over any others.
d) inferno titan beats pod, jund, splinter twin and all the creature based decks. and it'll do it at instant speed if you have a chord. how is this bad? scapeshift plays 2 of them in their sideboard because they are the best, most aggressive thing you can do if you're ramping.
e) spellskite beats affinity, twin, scapeshift, bogles, TRON, pod, the list goes on. for X=2 off a chord you can preserve/protect your board state EoT before comboing off. seems legit to me.
f) obstinate baloth patches the deck's weaknesses while at the same time being an excellent devotion enabler and a great threat on board. it's basically the last piece of the puzzle. i'd consider running at least 1 in the main no matter what, if you have chords in the list.
also i don't want to play pod. Chord is much more powerful in this deck than it could ever be in pod because of the incredible ramp we have available. and last i checked i had chosen a very minimal compliment of toolbox creatures that don't necessarily dilute the deck at all.
1x elesh norn
1x linvala
1x inferno titan
1x thrun
2x baloth
i'd rather have these in my deck than any number of selkies and bad-by-themselves devotion cards. by being too single minded on a certain strategy, those devotion-heavy creatures dilute the deck more than my suggested toolbox creatures ever would. i see the same deckbuilding strategies employed by the young schoolkids at my local store. they are so eager to get their combination of cards going that they forget decks need resilience, good individual card-quality, answers, powerful topdecks and things like removal or disruption. if you ignore this need, then the nykthos deck won't ever be anything more than a tier-2 deck with some lucky finishes.
based on your evaluation of those cards above in the quote, i call into question your analysis of modern as a format, and what's viable.
your arguments about them being dead cards is also empty. saying linvala is a dead card vs. storm doesn't take account of what you'd be running instead. you're not going to have another genesis wave in linvala's slot. it'll probably just be a selkie or something, which is just as bad against storm. at least if you know you're playing against storm you can choose not to chord linvala out, and instead get aggressive with your plays into a huge genesis wave. the key to having these cards is that they give you choices. only having one line of play makes your deck cumbersome. it means it won't respond well to a variety of decks because you'll just try and do the same thing every time and when you don't draw a perfect hand, you'll have no way back into the game when your opponent capitalises on it.
even if you can make lots of mana, you're stuck until you draw a wave. if there are chords in the deck as well, it basically doubles your chances of drawing a win condition. this is important.
also, in my version, garruk often represents lethal damage on turn 4. that's pretty important too. jund decks are employing this strategy because it's that good.
anyway i didn't come here for theorycrafting or an argument. i came to help refine and improve a deck which looks to me to be the most exciting upcoming deck. i found myself in a position where i was able to observe and discern some ways in which the current decks were selling themselves short, and i presented a considered alternative taking into account the weaknesses of the deck in its current form, as well as the strengths of some of the cards available to it. to be told that "thrun is bad" or whatever is kind of weak, dude. let's have a proper discussion because bickering doesn't help anyone, and empty statements like that only get people irritated.
the REAL comparison, the "either/or" is as follows:
do you play sub-par 2/2s that draw you a card and provide some devotion, OR do you play chord of calling, which draws you exactly what you need.
why do you think i dropped down to 3 eternal witness? because by itself it's a terrible card. it needs other stuff to make it good, and when you topdeck it you feel bad. the same goes for all the other "construct a wonky combo" cards, put in the deck like components of a piece of IKEA furniture. if one bit's not there or it gets disrupted, the whole thing falls apart.
maybe i'd run a split. if i'm honest i'd kind of forgotten about courser and only remembered finks (which probably isn't that good here).
mm.
ok so i'll revise my list slightly. i still think thrun is an important 1-of. but dropping baloth for courser gives an interesting free slot in the deck. i can see jamming an extra elvish visionary because it's been good so far. better, at least, than a 2/2 for 3. at least it gets you through the top cards of your deck quicker, which is what we really want.
ok so my 1-ofs would be as follows:
1x spellskite
1x courser
1x thrun (mostly because he wrecks control and is a very "safe" devotion source)
1x inferno titan (or wurmcoil engine)
1x primeval titan
1x elesh norn.
there. that seems more condensed. the primeval, courser and thrun are all good devotion enablers so they hardly count as toolbox creatures. it's really just inferno and elesh that are the singleton hate cards here. i still really like inferno in the main because he hates on so many of the decks right now. you could arguably switch it up for wurmcoil engine and it'd be equally fine. that means less of a red splash which is pretty key.
and i still think 1x shriekmaw in the board is inspired. ncie card there for certain matchups.
i might also have a switcheroo and go 3x chord and 4x wave. chord still seems like the best pre-wave tactic. and slamming an early elesh norn is just back-breaking. but the combo win needs to be topdecked with fairly high regularity so 3/4 split seems good. it could change back, so i'll test the numbers thoroughly.
cheers for the response. i'll post an updated decklist over the next 24 hours after testing.
That will be a big one, but please withstand
I dont understand what is your point about protecting your walkers while comparing it to baloth. Baloth dies to same stuff that polukranos. I dont even care when they are attacking my garruk, and I am not playing any other planeswalker. I think I have much bigger "inevitability and enabling to "go off"" with Polukranos than Thrun or Baloth, as both cant pass goyf, both cant pass numerous blockers, both cant interact with flyers.
I am just quoting CurdBros 1 off, which seems much better option for elf heavy version than stuff like Baloth.
It recycles itself / protects important mana generator / blocks flyers. Not saying it is best card, but it works for every matchup, something that Linvala / Spellskite / Baloth / Thrun isnt doing.
I am not basing this on my own testing, but also others (for example my local friend who was twice at ProTour), plus if you read some articles, watch streams, such as Michaels Jacobs, read pro's twitters (Tomoharu Saito) you will see that most of those people dont like Thrun. Thrun is just too slow. It is too small for modern, where you can see numerous resilient creatures such as kitchen finks, sweapers such as wrath of god, sacrifice effects such as liliana, discard such as thoughtseize and his ultimate nightmare - tarmogoyf. You might dissagre with it, I am just stating my oppinion and backing it up with some pros thoughts. Jund/Rock players are so desparate, that they play Garruk Wildspeaker / Garruk Relentless / Desecration Demon / Token making Vampire in place of Thrun.
You dont have to tell me it, I started playing with Elesh around May, also started playing with it in maindeck, however after testing I found I dont want too many expensive spells in the main - so I cut Elesh Norn while moving it to the sideboard while keeping Craterhoof as a win con. I am sorry, I just didnt notice that you are not playing Craterhoof. Then Elesh Norn is a fine maindeck choice, however remember it is conditional wincon, as opponent can still win after you find it.
I dont understand how it does beat jund, as it will kill confidant / act as bolt and then die to slaughter pact/putrefy/terminate/pulse. Left unchecked it will probably be good, however it is also true to primeval titan. vs Pod it will probably act as a 3 mana fork bolt every turn as they will just chump block it for a rest of a game, however it still is good. Is it better than Primeval Titan fetching Nykthos / Kessig? I dont know, however probably not. I doubt it will do anything vs twin, it will either be countered or you will die to combo before having time to cast it. Even when it resolve it wont stop them of comboing of as it is still ~2 turn clock (assuming they cant tap it somehow). I think you dont understand why they are playing Inferno Titan in sideboard in Scapeshift. They do it because everyone is sideboarding out removal vs them so titan cant be answered, and that way they fight Scapeshift hate.
Can you share more about this? I think this card can see potential, however I dont really get how it is so good vs those matchups, so maybe I am missing something. Please share us your thoughts.
She is very good vs a deck that she is very good, however still not unbeatable. Twin is turn faster, vs affinity it can be also too slow. Pod can just find shriekmaw / kill with township. I however understand this card, and can see running it in a maindeck similar how pod is playing it right now. Vs wrong opponent she is just a 3/4 flyer for 2WW (which might be hard sometimes). Is it bad? No. Is it ideal? Also no.
It doesnt bit affinity (it only works vs 1 creature). It is very good vs twin. It does nothing vs scapeshift combo finish - they can just kill you next turn or bounce it turn before. It beats boogles, however you would need to have it on turn 2 most of the time (and fastest turn to chord for it would be turn 3 in your version). It might not be enought, however I love it there. I dont really know what it does vs tron - stopping one Karn activation?. I dont know what it does vs Pod. If they have combo it does nothing. How does it protect my boardstate end of turn before comboing off? I dont get this part. It stops 1 spot removal at best. I think this is a very good creature to have, however I dont know if it is worth having it in a maindeck.
This deck weekness it the fact that it looses to fast combo, I think everyone already stated it. I have very good win % vs any matchup that want to control or outgrind me, such as Scapeshift, Jund, BG, UWR, Tron, Pod, very very good vs burn and zoo. 50-50 vs Merfolks, GW Hatebears and Affinity, those games depents how fast they are. Very bad vs fast combo such as Twin/Eggs/Add Nauseum, Boogles. For me this card doesnt do anything vs bad matchups, so I dont know what deck's weakness it patches. It is also quote bad devotion enabler - 2 for 4 mana is quite bad ratio.
This toolbox might be small, however I still think 7 our of ~40 cards is too much. I dont hate playing Elesh Norn and Linvala in a maindeck (as both of them are very good choices in a current metagame - I get you that, I run both in a md and sb them a lot), I however dont like other choices. To me Inferno Titan is bad Primeval Titan, Baloth is worse than Polukranos, while the other is worse than ooze. I dont like Thrun, and I think spellskite hits not enought matchups. Remember we cant pod those cards away similar as Pod can - drawing those 1 off that are dead in matchup might really hurt.
Cant agree more - I was one of the people that were saying not to go all in on certain aproaches. I cut BTE, trimmed selkies, trimmed bigger guys. Added more 1 mana acceleration. Started playing Hate-offs for Chord, removal for bad and close matchups, more midrange aproach with Resto Angels and Coursers to get as much value, stop their agression and win from there with titan/kessig/command. I think we are talking about simmilar things, however we want to aproach them differently. Remember I dont hate your choices - I just think that other options might be better.
Again I cant agree more. However if you draw said Linvala vs Storm is close to a dead card, as it doesnt provide either big clock/hate/devotion for other cards/digging power. I wont say I would change it with selkie - it might be something like this, or oracle/visionary. However they would help me goldfish, while Linvala cant do it.
I am also not discarding Chord Power - I am totally agreeing on your point that it gives deck an additional dimmension of attack or way to fetch wincon. I even think it is better than Genesis Wave ;P
To be honest if you would like to have a hate card vs storm you would need either Eidolon of Rhetoric (VERY GOOD card vs mayority of combo decks), Reclamation Sage(hits only 1 piece of combo) or Scavenging Ooze (hits 2 pieces), but they might still not be enought.
I think it was GnuHouse who stated it first somewhere in a old thread - you should try to win a game 1 based on your own deck, not based on what you are playing against. So in GnuHouses case it would be fast Wave, in my it would be slower(by ~1 turn) lock. That is why most people here chose Craterhoof as a finisher of choice - because it gets them dead, regardless of a matchup, and does it fast (eg. same turn).
Again, cant agree more. I hope my explanation would be enought, if needed I can back them up by my results from either MTGO or matches played in a most competitive shop in Warsaw. Also I am sorry by my point on Thrun, I just think I posted here why I dont like this card in modern (I also played it as my Chord target at some point. Later I just found I like other options more as it didnt do what I thought it would do - killing control fast. It was too slow for Scapeshift, and UWR commanded it or took hit, and then cast Wrath of Gof. Also I found I dont need help vs control or scapeshift as those matchups were quite good).
Ok, I think it is first time I dissageed with you for some time :).
To me it isn't Chord vs Selkie. To me it is some of the Chords targets vs stuff like Selkie. I love Chord, and again I will say I like it much more than Genesis Wave - getting exactly what you need is awsome. Selkie in my and GnuHouse version and Elvish Visionary/Coaling Oracle in CurdBros version is an enabler. Chord/Wave/Command is a finisher. I think we should compare cards like that. Similar how you play Wall of Roots and better 1 drops in BoPs/Hierarchs, and most of us play Arbor Elf/Utopia sprawls. Those card do the same thing - accelerate your mana. We dont compare Wall of Roots to Genesis Wave - one is an enabler (either accelerator/devotion/card advantage), another is finisher (titans, hoofs, kessig, wave, command, chord).
Here almost I may feel offended :frown:. Witness is one of my favourite cards in this deck and most powerful. It is a one that gets discarded/countered the most. It needs anything to be good, it is still good with stuff like a fetchland when you need it. When I topdeck it I feel awsome, as I can reuse all of my killed/discarded/used awsome cards that either improve my mana development/get me another value/let me kill them. To me it is one of the cards that make this deck soo resilient to distruption.
Ok, that is a long post. Hope I answered all your points, so please interact with us more, to make this deck better. I think everyone here has their own experiences/opinions/thoughts, and using a hivemind mentality will make this deck stronger.
Chears!