The problem with cutting Thalias I think is that it's the most important line of defense against a glut of decks like Storm, Reanimator, UW(r) Control, and other fringe spell-based combo decks that the deck otherwise wouldn't have a prayer's chance against game one. If you decide to cut more than one Thalia, it should probably be for something disruptive like Inquisition or Tidehollow Sculler or something.
Thalia also makes sense in an Aether Vial deck. I do think, like Sheepz suggests, 27 creatures is probably a good target for building with Aether Vial. 23 lands is a sensible starting point with the mana curve and land base suggested. I don't think that you'd get laughed out of the thread if you came up with a deck that deviates from these numbers.
another take on semantics here.
I know we had a lot of talks about this - but this is a new thread and we want people to post their ideas here... so:
- does the "taxes" part always mean Thalia AND Leonin Arbiter?
Will decks still fit in this thread if they only include one of these or a completely different "tax" mechanic?
Sheepz already reduced the number of Thalias in his Wb builds - did you think of cutting it completely for more spell-support (Lingering Souls, Inquisition of Kozilek)? I think the monoW builds will always want 3-4 Thalias (don't get me wrong - she is great!). The recently featured Wr build, Sheepz Wb and of course the former Wu builds always stumble with Spells vs. Thalia arguments.
Cutting Thalia would immediatly open our solution space to builds with planeswalkers (Wr would like Ajani?), Wb token hybrids, Wu with Snapcaster, ...
Just remember, keep the core, 23 lands, 27 creatures minimum, 2 non creature spells max excluding vial and path. As long as you do these things, it should function fine and leave you some slots for meta calls like jav or finks or grunt.
This deck is not Tier 1. These are harsh constraints. If we ease the restrictions we could get more creative inputs.
While I personally am very far from even considering cutting Thalia, since I consider her too good to live without and a cornerstone of this deck... I agree with your general notion. We shouldn't not try something just because it hasn't been done before, that's how decks go stale. It sure opens up a huge array of new tools. Lingering Souls is a very good card.
However, I'm not sure it would be fair to expect a lot of input on theoretical lists without Thalia. We all play her. If you wanna go rogue and cut her, I think you should step up and give it a spin. Please let us know when you've got a list where you feel that the extra non-creature spells make up for her absence. I'd be excited to see it.
No idea what tier has got to do with this.
Just my two cents on the matter.
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While the cat is away, the rats will play. And by play I mean spread absolute heresy haha. Yes we are a tier 2 deck, but that doesn't mean we don't have a fairly tight build, just as UWR is a tier 1 deck and has a crazy loose build. There are certain cards I feel the deck should have, and straying from that is quite dangerous. I am only able to reduce my thalia count because I use tidescullers to mitigate the removal an additional thalia would have faced. In my eyes, this is more efficient since I often grab boardwipes such as anger that would have hit other critters as well. But as for adding more spells, Lets take a look at my deck and deconstruct for open slots:
What you could remove to make space: 1x Restoration angel, 1 (2?) Pack Rat, 1 Akroma, Angel of Fury, 1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (But needs to be replaced by an alternate finisher)
That gives us 5 slots to play with at max, 4 most likely, and 1 of them is conditional on a replacement beater. Now keep in mind anything we put in here has to better than adding additional removal as well as be better (as a whole) than what we removed. This is a major reason why I don't what IoK or Thoughtseize here. We HAVE to run them as 4 offs to be effective, and this deck lives on its top deck which these are terrible for. Yes they could be pitched to Pack Rat to salvage some value, but I'm still not incredibly keen on that, in addition to the taxes faced by thalia. So in my mind, those sort of cards are off the table.
An alternate package (which I would very much consider) Would be to replace these 5 cards with 4 copies of lingering souls and a hero of bladehold. Hero of bladehold has fallen out of favor in most lists for Brimaz, but in this specific case you would probably get more value from hero here. Going this route though, I would like to find room for a Brimaz and might eat into the core a bit and take out a splicer for one. This synergizes best with the rest of the decks strategy looking at hero and pack rat, while keeping costs SOMEWHAT sane. But keep in mind thalia will bump the souls to 4 and that they often play a more defensive role. There are just too many alternates to those slots I rather have, such as an additional Orzhov Pontiff (I'm really hurting to find a place for a second) which, coincidently, would be excellent with lingering souls haha. Rambling here but, 3 souls, hero, and a pontiff would be interesting. This would keep us at an almost respectable 26 creature count.
All in all though, I don't particularly think this is a good idea. Spells have too much inherent downside here and when we're already removal light, most spells I would want would fall into that category. Souls is a bit of a build around and primarily a defensive card, which I'm not sure this deck wants at the moment, but if i did do it that's how I would. If you want to add spells, I'd suggest finding your free slots as I did and really think long and hard about whether or not what you're adding is REALLY better than removal here.
I don't want to get into that old unresolved argument about what tier means, but popularity is at least a factor. Some iteration(s) of this deck can brawl with most decks in the Proven subforum, so I disagree with the notion that this deck has reached some kind of power level dead end that must be resolved by changing the core. I didn't mean that this deck IS stale. I'm just saying that trying to change things up should generally speaking not be discouraged, even though I would hate to see page upon page with theorycrafting without Thalia when we've got a core deck that works so well as it is. I share Sheepz's well-founded scepticism, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Test and come back with a list that works.
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...
We shouldn't not try something just because it hasn't been done before, that's how decks go stale.
...
No idea what tier has got to do with this.
Well you answered it yourself - with too much hard restrictions the deck goes stale - no chance to become a top deck :).
I will try to come up with a "more spells" list - not sure if that would make any sense.
@Sheepz: I always liked your Wb approach - especially your take on Pack Rat. As you play the full blink-package I really think you should find space for 2-3 Sin Collector in the board?
WB is flat out for masochists haha. It's making a hard to learn deck HARDER to learn due to tidehollow and a lack of intrinsic power (partially solved with akroma and pack rat). I am STILL not a great player of the deck and I've been probably playing it the longest on this board, and being quite slow so adopt change. I test everything quite thoroughly. Sin Collector is quite good, but the slots it would replace are orzhov pontiff or a one off main over a tidehollow. I am EXTREMELY hesitant to completely cut either (Pontiff is only down to one currently in order to test my removal heavier side with slaughter pact and dark blast), but I think it might have a place here. It's a really tough call and I haven't given it due diligence with the four resto package. If I do pick it up, it will replace Darkblast side, and a tide main. Maybe a pack rat main instead of a tide. Hm. Now you got be brewing a bit haha. I am trying to avoid going into my initial build though with WB where I went WAY too deep and it became incredibly meta sensitive. Everything was an answer to something, rather than trying to further my own game plan.
@Hav We exist to kill the proven decks. Simple as that. We don't do as well against brews, we struggle with a fair amount of established. The biggest thing holding us back though, and feel free to disagree, is a lack of room for error. I've read every tournament report on this board, probably more often than I should. It keeps coming down to late day exhaustion and errors of judgement. I see us losing match ups we absolutely should have won due to silly errors. I see us lacking the intense meta knowledge this deck requires. If you can't identify what they are playing by turn 2, you will probably lose. Overall, this is a deck to watch over the next year. Our results are improving, it's been a steady trend. A big thing we're lacking is pro-player support, and when we do get articles written, it's with absolutely KEY misunderstandings of the deck (See "OH YEA DUDE INCLUDE THRAGTUSK VALUE VALUE VALUE) which certainly don't help. I want us to develop as tight a list as humanly possible, no matter whether its WB, GW, W(g) or monowhite. I guess what I'm saying is the deck can go the distance, it just requires a higher due diligence than many other decks. We have to be the better player.
The biggest thing holding us back though, and feel free to disagree, is a lack of room for error. I've read every tournament report on this board, probably more often than I should. It keeps coming down to late day exhaustion and errors of judgement. I see us losing match ups we absolutely should have won due to silly errors. I see us lacking the intense meta knowledge this deck requires.
This is exactly where I'm at too. I feel that this is a very good deck in the current format, but it's somewhat underplayed because it's not a tempting deck to pick up by top players because it's meta volatile and exhausting to play.
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I played a mix of Tournament Practice and 2-man queues (would've done all two-mans but the loss there is ridiculous). I lost to Possibility Storm and beat Through The Breach, 2 Burn decks, 2 Mono-Blue Tron decks, and Bogles. I was really surprised by all of the wins except Through The Breach.
Still, I felt like I was really dependent on Aether Vial a lot of games. I do like having match-ups that are harder than others but not un-winnable, whereas I'm used to playing Mono-Green Infect and either rolling people or having a much harder fight. I disagree with sentiments against Serra Avenger and thought he was great. Also, I didn't feel like I taxed my opponents very much. Maybe I didn't mulligan correctly, but my deck was really more just ... death and random blinky durdling. I LOVE Flickerwisp.
^I second every single thing in the post above. Run 2-3 Familiar, particularly if you want to tax more. This deck has kind of a bad name, it's really not that tax heavy. Though the tax we do apply is immensely important to the deck.
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^I second every single thing in the post above. Run 2-3 Familiar, particularly if you want to tax more. This deck has kind of a bad name, it's really not that tax heavy. Though the tax we do apply is immensely important to the deck.
It's comes not from it's death and tax portions but from the quote "all that is certain in life is death, taxes, (and white weenie)" :p. Least that's my understanding of it. I think it was named after the joke?
I know the origin, but it's a bad name in part because its origin needs to be explained, in part because there's a better known, quite different deck in a different format that bears the same name, and in part because there is very little info about the deck in the name. Taxes, ok sure, but death? Most decks try to kill the opponent... I think this contributes to us often being lumped together with Hatebears. That's a good name, and on an intuitive level it could be seen as descriptive of our deck too. Most decks, like Affinity, Twin, Scapeshift, 8Rack, DredgeVine, [Tribe], Jund, Delver, Tron, all have names that gives a strong clue about the deck concept/strategy. The only worse deck name off the top of my head is Dead Guy Ale... and maybe Rock.
If I thought it was possible, I'd suggest we'd try to change it to something more descriptive. Maybe something similar to its current name to make the transition possible. "Wisp & Taxes" would be a great name, those are the key elements of the deck: Slowing down with hate while flickering for value.
Edit: ooh, or "Hatewisp"... You know, like Hatebears? But whatever, I don't think it's doable beyond this forum.
I know the origin, but it's a bad name in part because its origin needs to be explained, in part because there's a better known, quite different deck in a different format that bears the same name, and in part because there is very little info about the deck in the name. Taxes, ok sure, but death? Most decks try to kill the opponent... I think this contributes to us often being lumped together with Hatebears. That's a good name, and on an intuitive level it could be seen as descriptive of our deck too. Most decks, like Affinity, Twin, Scapeshift, 8Rack, DredgeVine, [Tribe], Jund, Delver, Tron, all have names that gives a strong clue about the deck concept/strategy. The only worse deck name off the top of my head is Dead Guy Ale... and maybe Rock.
If I thought it was possible, I'd suggest we'd try to change it to something more descriptive. Maybe something similar to its current name to make the transition possible. "Wisp & Taxes" would be a great name, those are the key elements of the deck: Slowing down with hate while flickering for value.
Edit: ooh, or "Hatewisp"... You know, like Hatebears? But whatever, I don't think it's doable beyond this forum.
My vote is for 4WispNoSerra, describes it perfectly.
R1 living end 0-2
i lost to living end both games go down to the wire but ending up his manage to execute to combo,both games no ooze
R2 ad nausseum 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo out on turn 4,game 2 he was hated by thalia,game 3 i manage to shut down his prism by stony silence and agrro him to death
r3 BG 2-0
both game he got hated and agrro him out,he had no answer to blade splicer,arbiter and thalia
r4 tarmo-twin 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo,game 2 agrro and hate is on,game 3 i resolved choke,then from the point the game is over
r5 UR twin 2-1
same as round 4,but on round 3, he has exarch on play then targeted by twin,but i have vial w/ 4 counters,putting linvala on play while twin on the stack,then exarch do nothing.
r6 UR twin 2-1
same as round 4 and 5,on round 3 i have thalia,splicer and golem on play on turn 4 got him down to 10,on his turn he resolved anger of gods,sweeping my board,but his tapped out.on my turn i-CHOKEed him to won the round
R7 melira pod 2-1
game 1 he had pod on play but i had mindscensor,he cannot execute the combo,game 2 he had a lot creature then attacked me w/ shriekmaw w exalted trigger.game 3 we had both first turn dork,but on my 2nd turn i kill his dork w/ sunlance,then on following turn i cast splicer then flickerwisp,blinking the splicer,we 2 first strike golems is too much for him
r8 BG 2-0
with a lot of pressure whoever wins this round will be on top8,game 1 w/ on the play,i manage turn 1 dork,then he had turn 2 bob,while his tapping out,i cast arbiter then GQ and PTE to his bob,but that point i really have a lot of advantage.game 2 i merely had same opening then it goes down to wire.he had only 1 life but liliana on play. i only had vial w/ 4 counters w/ 1 card on hand,he decided to use liliana to discard both of us w/ resto angel on my hand i vial my angel to play on response to liliana and attack him to death
quarterfinals jund 2-0
game 1 w/ my explosive hand,i manage to hate him and agrro out early and he never recover.game 2 i was saved by mark of asylum w/ chandra pyromaster on his side,all of my creature would be dead thanks to mark of asylum
semis tarmo twin 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo out,game 2 its my turn to hate him,game 3 close fight his down to 4 and im down to 8,he had pestermite,snapcaster and blood moon on play but thanks to GQ on response destroying my own lands to get 1 more plains to cast linvala, and he didnt counter,from that point i know he has no counter on hand..i PTE the pestermite to attacke linvala on air made him down to 1,he counter attacked w/ snapcaster but i decided to blocked w/ arbiter bcoz he had a lot of lands and from that point he will do nothing.on my turn i attacked linvala,he responded back to nature the blood moon making him down to 2,but on the next turn he does nothing and linvala flew away to victory,he said he had a lot of lands on hands and drew another
finals BW tokens
we split the price giving him the invite
It was a lot of fun and hate to my opponent,it started on 1230pm and finishing 1am on the next day
I'm having a hard time matching up against a lot of decks. Can I put this down to newbism, or is there some things I should know about key strategic ploys?
Seem to be having trouble unless the Arbiter Ghost Quarter combo happens, otherwise I feel a bit helpless.
Practice makes perfect? I'm 3/10 games so far, feeling a bit trod on.
Are you keeping track of which decks you are losing to? I suggest starting up a spread sheet with each deck's name at the top, then add when you win/lose to the rows below. That way you will get a good visual on your win/loss and where you need to focus your sideboard cards.
Edit: Sheepz can we get Tunnel Ingus in the splash zone :3
Okay so multiquoting doesn't want to work for me so I'm gonna address this this way;
@Gaydog60 Pm me your list and the match ups you are having trouble with. If you have mgto I'd really like to chat there since back and forth is easier that way, but if you don't i'll try my best. This is gonna take some detail probably explaining plays so really a chat format over a board format would be easier for me. If I find any information I find SUPER relevant i will of course post it to the board.
@LtGlitter I have kept my eye on the red splash, but haven't seen too many truly great lists come out of it despite all the tools. It seems like a lot of players use it as an experimental splash with out really devoting themselves to it. The green and black splashes (and to an extent, the blue splash) have strings of results and extensive testing with people that have REALLY devoted themselves to it (and not just me with the black splash, that goes way back). If you can post a solid list and demonstrate a real devotion and tuning process, I'll gladly post it! I just feel it isn't thoroughly tested enough to really post a list up there yet. I am trying not to be real biased, it's just the other builds are tuned to having around 4 flex spots for deviation, and red isn't there yet imo. The red denial plan having anti synergy with the white denial plan is a real hurdle as well. ON PAPER though this splash certainly has a solid chance of being perfectly legitimate, considering the possibility to actually pump akroma, access to tunnel ingus, having the choice at least of blood moon and magus side (though im skeptical here) and most importantly, access to the kiki-resto combo at completely instant speed which could be a real threat.
I'm having a hard time matching up against a lot of decks. Can I put this down to newbism, or is there some things I should know about key strategic ploys?
Seem to be having trouble unless the Arbiter Ghost Quarter combo happens, otherwise I feel a bit helpless.
Practice makes perfect? I'm 3/10 games so far, feeling a bit trod on.
As others have replied, it would be interesting to see what matchups those were.. but yes, practice makes perfect. Your first 10 games should be a bit shaky with any new deck, and this one is harder to get into than most. Not sure if I can claim winning 3 out of my first 10. Chin up.
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Okay so multiquoting doesn't want to work for me so I'm gonna address this this way;
@LtGlitter I have kept my eye on the red splash, but haven't seen too many truly great lists come out of it despite all the tools. It seems like a lot of players use it as an experimental splash with out really devoting themselves to it. The green and black splashes (and to an extent, the blue splash) have strings of results and extensive testing with people that have REALLY devoted themselves to it (and not just me with the black splash, that goes way back). If you can post a solid list and demonstrate a real devotion and tuning process, I'll gladly post it! I just feel it isn't thoroughly tested enough to really post a list up there yet. I am trying not to be real biased, it's just the other builds are tuned to having around 4 flex spots for deviation, and red isn't there yet imo. The red denial plan having anti synergy with the white denial plan is a real hurdle as well. ON PAPER though this splash certainly has a solid chance of being perfectly legitimate, considering the possibility to actually pump akroma, access to tunnel ingus, having the choice at least of blood moon and magus side (though im skeptical here) and most importantly, access to the kiki-resto combo at completely instant speed which could be a real threat.
I'm still running the list I posted a while ago, I may look to grab the cards on MTGO if every one ends up selling their cards and the prices crash (i can only hope), otherwise my "actual games" are going to come from the few paper matches I'm in town for. I did have that Thursday night modern back on page 4, which was probably all I could have hoped for on the first day playing paper & missing Brimaz & Kiki from the list.
Also right now, the 2 hero of blade hold, 1 sword, and archetype of courage interchanges with 3 angels & Kiki, I just don't own them in paper.
As for my stats so far, here is the google doc of my last 173 games for anyone who cares to check it out RW Hatebears. I'm going to edit it to split each opponent into matches, because right now its difficult to see how many matches went to 2 vs. 3 games.
Also Edit: I need to keep track of the little changes I make in the deck column too cause that would be useful.
Okay so multiquoting doesn't want to work for me so I'm gonna address this this way;
@LtGlitter I have kept my eye on the red splash, but haven't seen too many truly great lists come out of it despite all the tools. It seems like a lot of players use it as an experimental splash with out really devoting themselves to it. The green and black splashes (and to an extent, the blue splash) have strings of results and extensive testing with people that have REALLY devoted themselves to it (and not just me with the black splash, that goes way back). If you can post a solid list and demonstrate a real devotion and tuning process, I'll gladly post it! I just feel it isn't thoroughly tested enough to really post a list up there yet. I am trying not to be real biased, it's just the other builds are tuned to having around 4 flex spots for deviation, and red isn't there yet imo. The red denial plan having anti synergy with the white denial plan is a real hurdle as well. ON PAPER though this splash certainly has a solid chance of being perfectly legitimate, considering the possibility to actually pump akroma, access to tunnel ingus, having the choice at least of blood moon and magus side (though im skeptical here) and most importantly, access to the kiki-resto combo at completely instant speed which could be a real threat.
I'm still running the list I posted a while ago, I may look to grab the cards on MTGO if every one ends up selling their cards and the prices crash (i can only hope), otherwise my "actual games" are going to come from the few paper matches I'm in town for. I did have that Thursday night modern back on page 4, which was probably all I could have hoped for on the first day playing paper & missing Brimaz & Kiki from the list.
Also right now, the 2 hero of blade hold, 1 sword, and archetype of courage interchanges with 3 angels & Kiki, I just don't own them in paper.
As for my stats so far, here is the google doc of my last 173 games for anyone who cares to check it out. RW Hatebears. I'm going to edit it to split each opponent into matches, because right now its difficult to see how many matches went to 2 vs. 3 games.
Love it haha. I'll peruse the data and see what I can dredge up from the archives as well.
I am still winning the majority of matchups and nearly ready to take it into a daily, but I keep losing to UR Delver.
I'm not particularly fond of the Epochrasite slot or the Judge's Familiars, but I don't want to invest into more Thalia and Mirran Crusader just yet. I still think that Icatian Javelineers would be sweet, but also I saw a list playing Swords and Soltari Priest make some results and wondered what the opinions were on those.
I am still winning the majority of matchups and nearly ready to take it into a daily, but I keep losing to UR Delver.
I'm not particularly fond of the Epochrasite slot or the Judge's Familiars, but I don't want to invest into more Thalia and Mirran Crusader just yet. I still think that Icatian Javelineers would be sweet, but also I saw a list playing Swords and Soltari Priest make some results and wondered what the opinions were on those.
I say cut Akroma; she's cute but as a 1-of with 6 ways to flip her I just never found her worth it. Epochrasite is an odd one; good in some MUs, horrible if there's GY hate being brought in. UR delver is a pain in the backside, I find- Delver itself isn't too bad, but I just get swamped by elemental tokens. Something like Marrow Shards could be an option for the board? We're weak against X/1 tokens, I feel. I'd up Thalias and mindcensors to 4-ofs, and throw in another 2 finks (although I still prefer Riftwatcher for the evasion).
Too many epochrasite, should be just one, fill the spots with finks. Akroma isn't that good unless you run four resto, in which case it's really consistent and good. EE side is an excellent choice for handling tokens and weenies. Merfolk too if you ever splash.
Thalia also makes sense in an Aether Vial deck. I do think, like Sheepz suggests, 27 creatures is probably a good target for building with Aether Vial. 23 lands is a sensible starting point with the mana curve and land base suggested. I don't think that you'd get laughed out of the thread if you came up with a deck that deviates from these numbers.
While I personally am very far from even considering cutting Thalia, since I consider her too good to live without and a cornerstone of this deck... I agree with your general notion. We shouldn't not try something just because it hasn't been done before, that's how decks go stale. It sure opens up a huge array of new tools. Lingering Souls is a very good card.
However, I'm not sure it would be fair to expect a lot of input on theoretical lists without Thalia. We all play her. If you wanna go rogue and cut her, I think you should step up and give it a spin. Please let us know when you've got a list where you feel that the extra non-creature spells make up for her absence. I'd be excited to see it.
No idea what tier has got to do with this.
Just my two cents on the matter.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures 29
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Blade Splicer
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Flickerwisp
4 Restoration Angel
4 Pack Rat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Ghost Quarters
4 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Mark of Asylum
2 Spellskite
1 Pithing needle
1 EIdolon of Rhetoric
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Engineered Explosive
What you could remove to make space: 1x Restoration angel, 1 (2?) Pack Rat, 1 Akroma, Angel of Fury, 1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos (But needs to be replaced by an alternate finisher)
That gives us 5 slots to play with at max, 4 most likely, and 1 of them is conditional on a replacement beater. Now keep in mind anything we put in here has to better than adding additional removal as well as be better (as a whole) than what we removed. This is a major reason why I don't what IoK or Thoughtseize here. We HAVE to run them as 4 offs to be effective, and this deck lives on its top deck which these are terrible for. Yes they could be pitched to Pack Rat to salvage some value, but I'm still not incredibly keen on that, in addition to the taxes faced by thalia. So in my mind, those sort of cards are off the table.
An alternate package (which I would very much consider) Would be to replace these 5 cards with 4 copies of lingering souls and a hero of bladehold. Hero of bladehold has fallen out of favor in most lists for Brimaz, but in this specific case you would probably get more value from hero here. Going this route though, I would like to find room for a Brimaz and might eat into the core a bit and take out a splicer for one. This synergizes best with the rest of the decks strategy looking at hero and pack rat, while keeping costs SOMEWHAT sane. But keep in mind thalia will bump the souls to 4 and that they often play a more defensive role. There are just too many alternates to those slots I rather have, such as an additional Orzhov Pontiff (I'm really hurting to find a place for a second) which, coincidently, would be excellent with lingering souls haha. Rambling here but, 3 souls, hero, and a pontiff would be interesting. This would keep us at an almost respectable 26 creature count.
All in all though, I don't particularly think this is a good idea. Spells have too much inherent downside here and when we're already removal light, most spells I would want would fall into that category. Souls is a bit of a build around and primarily a defensive card, which I'm not sure this deck wants at the moment, but if i did do it that's how I would. If you want to add spells, I'd suggest finding your free slots as I did and really think long and hard about whether or not what you're adding is REALLY better than removal here.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
WB is flat out for masochists haha. It's making a hard to learn deck HARDER to learn due to tidehollow and a lack of intrinsic power (partially solved with akroma and pack rat). I am STILL not a great player of the deck and I've been probably playing it the longest on this board, and being quite slow so adopt change. I test everything quite thoroughly. Sin Collector is quite good, but the slots it would replace are orzhov pontiff or a one off main over a tidehollow. I am EXTREMELY hesitant to completely cut either (Pontiff is only down to one currently in order to test my removal heavier side with slaughter pact and dark blast), but I think it might have a place here. It's a really tough call and I haven't given it due diligence with the four resto package. If I do pick it up, it will replace Darkblast side, and a tide main. Maybe a pack rat main instead of a tide. Hm. Now you got be brewing a bit haha. I am trying to avoid going into my initial build though with WB where I went WAY too deep and it became incredibly meta sensitive. Everything was an answer to something, rather than trying to further my own game plan.
@Hav We exist to kill the proven decks. Simple as that. We don't do as well against brews, we struggle with a fair amount of established. The biggest thing holding us back though, and feel free to disagree, is a lack of room for error. I've read every tournament report on this board, probably more often than I should. It keeps coming down to late day exhaustion and errors of judgement. I see us losing match ups we absolutely should have won due to silly errors. I see us lacking the intense meta knowledge this deck requires. If you can't identify what they are playing by turn 2, you will probably lose. Overall, this is a deck to watch over the next year. Our results are improving, it's been a steady trend. A big thing we're lacking is pro-player support, and when we do get articles written, it's with absolutely KEY misunderstandings of the deck (See "OH YEA DUDE INCLUDE THRAGTUSK VALUE VALUE VALUE) which certainly don't help. I want us to develop as tight a list as humanly possible, no matter whether its WB, GW, W(g) or monowhite. I guess what I'm saying is the deck can go the distance, it just requires a higher due diligence than many other decks. We have to be the better player.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
16 Plains
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dryad Militant
3 Restoration Angel
1 Stonecloaker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
4 Aether Vial
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Celestial Flare
I played a mix of Tournament Practice and 2-man queues (would've done all two-mans but the loss there is ridiculous). I lost to Possibility Storm and beat Through The Breach, 2 Burn decks, 2 Mono-Blue Tron decks, and Bogles. I was really surprised by all of the wins except Through The Breach.
Still, I felt like I was really dependent on Aether Vial a lot of games. I do like having match-ups that are harder than others but not un-winnable, whereas I'm used to playing Mono-Green Infect and either rolling people or having a much harder fight. I disagree with sentiments against Serra Avenger and thought he was great. Also, I didn't feel like I taxed my opponents very much. Maybe I didn't mulligan correctly, but my deck was really more just ... death and random blinky durdling. I LOVE Flickerwisp.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
It's comes not from it's death and tax portions but from the quote "all that is certain in life is death, taxes, (and white weenie)" :p. Least that's my understanding of it. I think it was named after the joke?
For an actual cool article on it:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26659_The-Legacy-Of-emNotem-White-Weenie.html
Well worth a read!
Ps: I also agree with everything Draco said!
If I thought it was possible, I'd suggest we'd try to change it to something more descriptive. Maybe something similar to its current name to make the transition possible. "Wisp & Taxes" would be a great name, those are the key elements of the deck: Slowing down with hate while flickering for value.
Edit: ooh, or "Hatewisp"... You know, like Hatebears? But whatever, I don't think it's doable beyond this forum.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
My vote is for 4WispNoSerra, describes it perfectly.
4 Noble hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Path to Exile
4 AEther Vial
4 Flickerwisp
4 Restoration Angel
4 Blade Splicer
3 Thalia, Guardian of Traben
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Scavening Ooze
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Razorvenge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Gavony Township
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Plains
1 Forest
Sideboard
2 Stony Silence
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Choke
1 Sunlance
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Dismember
1 Linvala,Keeper of Silence
1 Mark of Asylum
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
i lost to living end both games go down to the wire but ending up his manage to execute to combo,both games no ooze
R2 ad nausseum 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo out on turn 4,game 2 he was hated by thalia,game 3 i manage to shut down his prism by stony silence and agrro him to death
r3 BG 2-0
both game he got hated and agrro him out,he had no answer to blade splicer,arbiter and thalia
r4 tarmo-twin 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo,game 2 agrro and hate is on,game 3 i resolved choke,then from the point the game is over
r5 UR twin 2-1
same as round 4,but on round 3, he has exarch on play then targeted by twin,but i have vial w/ 4 counters,putting linvala on play while twin on the stack,then exarch do nothing.
r6 UR twin 2-1
same as round 4 and 5,on round 3 i have thalia,splicer and golem on play on turn 4 got him down to 10,on his turn he resolved anger of gods,sweeping my board,but his tapped out.on my turn i-CHOKEed him to won the round
R7 melira pod 2-1
game 1 he had pod on play but i had mindscensor,he cannot execute the combo,game 2 he had a lot creature then attacked me w/ shriekmaw w exalted trigger.game 3 we had both first turn dork,but on my 2nd turn i kill his dork w/ sunlance,then on following turn i cast splicer then flickerwisp,blinking the splicer,we 2 first strike golems is too much for him
r8 BG 2-0
with a lot of pressure whoever wins this round will be on top8,game 1 w/ on the play,i manage turn 1 dork,then he had turn 2 bob,while his tapping out,i cast arbiter then GQ and PTE to his bob,but that point i really have a lot of advantage.game 2 i merely had same opening then it goes down to wire.he had only 1 life but liliana on play. i only had vial w/ 4 counters w/ 1 card on hand,he decided to use liliana to discard both of us w/ resto angel on my hand i vial my angel to play on response to liliana and attack him to death
quarterfinals jund 2-0
game 1 w/ my explosive hand,i manage to hate him and agrro out early and he never recover.game 2 i was saved by mark of asylum w/ chandra pyromaster on his side,all of my creature would be dead thanks to mark of asylum
semis tarmo twin 2-1
game 1 he manage to combo out,game 2 its my turn to hate him,game 3 close fight his down to 4 and im down to 8,he had pestermite,snapcaster and blood moon on play but thanks to GQ on response destroying my own lands to get 1 more plains to cast linvala, and he didnt counter,from that point i know he has no counter on hand..i PTE the pestermite to attacke linvala on air made him down to 1,he counter attacked w/ snapcaster but i decided to blocked w/ arbiter bcoz he had a lot of lands and from that point he will do nothing.on my turn i attacked linvala,he responded back to nature the blood moon making him down to 2,but on the next turn he does nothing and linvala flew away to victory,he said he had a lot of lands on hands and drew another
finals BW tokens
we split the price giving him the invite
It was a lot of fun and hate to my opponent,it started on 1230pm and finishing 1am on the next day
Are you keeping track of which decks you are losing to? I suggest starting up a spread sheet with each deck's name at the top, then add when you win/lose to the rows below. That way you will get a good visual on your win/loss and where you need to focus your sideboard cards.
Edit: Sheepz can we get Tunnel Ingus in the splash zone :3
@Gaydog60 Pm me your list and the match ups you are having trouble with. If you have mgto I'd really like to chat there since back and forth is easier that way, but if you don't i'll try my best. This is gonna take some detail probably explaining plays so really a chat format over a board format would be easier for me. If I find any information I find SUPER relevant i will of course post it to the board.
@LtGlitter I have kept my eye on the red splash, but haven't seen too many truly great lists come out of it despite all the tools. It seems like a lot of players use it as an experimental splash with out really devoting themselves to it. The green and black splashes (and to an extent, the blue splash) have strings of results and extensive testing with people that have REALLY devoted themselves to it (and not just me with the black splash, that goes way back). If you can post a solid list and demonstrate a real devotion and tuning process, I'll gladly post it! I just feel it isn't thoroughly tested enough to really post a list up there yet. I am trying not to be real biased, it's just the other builds are tuned to having around 4 flex spots for deviation, and red isn't there yet imo. The red denial plan having anti synergy with the white denial plan is a real hurdle as well. ON PAPER though this splash certainly has a solid chance of being perfectly legitimate, considering the possibility to actually pump akroma, access to tunnel ingus, having the choice at least of blood moon and magus side (though im skeptical here) and most importantly, access to the kiki-resto combo at completely instant speed which could be a real threat.
As others have replied, it would be interesting to see what matchups those were.. but yes, practice makes perfect. Your first 10 games should be a bit shaky with any new deck, and this one is harder to get into than most. Not sure if I can claim winning 3 out of my first 10. Chin up.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
I'm still running the list I posted a while ago, I may look to grab the cards on MTGO if every one ends up selling their cards and the prices crash (i can only hope), otherwise my "actual games" are going to come from the few paper matches I'm in town for. I did have that Thursday night modern back on page 4, which was probably all I could have hoped for on the first day playing paper & missing Brimaz & Kiki from the list.
Also right now, the 2 hero of blade hold, 1 sword, and archetype of courage interchanges with 3 angels & Kiki, I just don't own them in paper.
As for my stats so far, here is the google doc of my last 173 games for anyone who cares to check it out RW Hatebears. I'm going to edit it to split each opponent into matches, because right now its difficult to see how many matches went to 2 vs. 3 games.
Also Edit: I need to keep track of the little changes I make in the deck column too cause that would be useful.
Love it haha. I'll peruse the data and see what I can dredge up from the archives as well.
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
16 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Epochrasite
4 Flickerwisp
2 Judge's Familiar
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Restoration Angel
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
I am still winning the majority of matchups and nearly ready to take it into a daily, but I keep losing to UR Delver.
I'm not particularly fond of the Epochrasite slot or the Judge's Familiars, but I don't want to invest into more Thalia and Mirran Crusader just yet. I still think that Icatian Javelineers would be sweet, but also I saw a list playing Swords and Soltari Priest make some results and wondered what the opinions were on those.
Too many epochrasite, should be just one, fill the spots with finks. Akroma isn't that good unless you run four resto, in which case it's really consistent and good. EE side is an excellent choice for handling tokens and weenies. Merfolk too if you ever splash.