By the time you draw/cast a 3rd one, the game is over. Casting a 2nd blossom is never an issue, though if you have Spectral Procession or Lingering Souls you can hold to the 2nd blossom and search for counters/sweepers, then cast another blossom. With the champions the tokens are free and if you 2 of them they even gain you life. When sorin or the vault is out, the game starts closing in our favor, not more than 2 attacks seal it.
If the question regarding the 3rd blossom is purely about 'would I risk to lose 3 life per turn?', well, that depends on the state of the field, with a vault or a sorin there, I'd go even for the 4th one, though that would be a really non-realistic board context. With 2 on the field you are good to go, it's practically over. Plus, if you decided to run 2/3 of them instead of a set, that would only reduce your chances of getting even 1 on the field. I'm sticking to the set, since it never disappointed me.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Post some results when you can. I'd like to know exactly which decks are being beaten by your list, and vice-versa. If you don't pull a greater than 50-58% win percentage, then it's pretty much on par with other non-bitter bw token builds.
Auriok Champion is INSANE. Blocks, avoids some sweepers, makes fetches and shocks a joke, makes the mirror hilarious, keeps you in games longer which gets you to those heavy hitters. I can imagine it makes burn an incredibly easy matchup which I've had a lot of issues against. Very happy to have picked these up.
Just don't imagine that Captain Underpants is invincible in the Burn match-up; she isn't - not even game one. Super good? yes. Spectacular? probably. Not invincible.
You have to watch out for Skullcrack shenanigans so don't block with her if your opponent has open mana and cards in hand unless you really have to; it's better to chump with and lose a token than to risk Lil' Kim.
Just to spell it out, Skullcrack makes the magic underpants stop working; damage can't be prevented ergo protection from red ceases to stop the damage.
Skullcrack followed by a R sweeper is curtains as well but there's nothing much you can do about that and it's not usually something you'll see pre-board. Rest assured, if you play it long enough, folks will figure it out.
It obviously requires your cooperation or a combination of cards to pull off, so the Champ is still super in the match-up; heck, Volcanic Fallout is the favorite R sweeper in Burn and how many matches go long enough for a nineteen-land deck to scrape up five mana?
Burn has other options for the side-board too, but some of the common ones are B, which won't help them any but they've also got Pyrite Spellbomb, Ghostfire and others.
I am not concerned with blocking against burn, so that's not what I was talking about at all. Nor did I say that it was invincible. I was talking about the life gain. I have had a horrible matchup against burn unless I activate the vault or play Timely Reinforcements game 2 or 3. With her out then playing just two token spells, that's enough life gain to win the match. Interesting to know about the skullcrack "turning off" the pro red though. Good to know.
Leyline of sanctity is your friend. Its your rich friend who likes to remind you of how poor you are. But his is still loyal
There is also Aegis of the Gods and/or True Believer, but will just delay one burn spell or two since these will get to eat those first before it continues to your face. But hey at least, it's a reduced burn spell count to think about.
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Im actually building a BUG infect deck right now. Ill play some Magic SOlitaire once its complete and let you know
I have yet to go up against an actual infect deck. Best plan of attack is focus removal and hand disruption. They usually start hands with 1 infect creature, maybe 2. So some quick disruption will help them stall.
I've played against infect quite a few times. It's supposed to be an easier matchup but I've lost to it three times in a row and I'm wondering what's up lol. Disruption, take their creatures, removal to kill them when they're on the field. As I mentioned from my last tourney report, I've made the mistake of trying to get more value out of Zealous and then they just pump it out of range. Kill them immediately and you'll never have to worry about it. Don't try and get value out of them wasting their pump spells, they can still give their creatures hexproof.
Also, just cause you're only sitting at 2 poison does not mean they can't kill you that turn. I think I'd rather throw all my tokens under the bus.
I have a mixed record against infect. You tend to need a lot of removal and disruption, but if you can break them the first few turns you'll win.
Discard is very strong against them, if you've got a couple discard spells, a path, and some chump blockers you're golden. Once in a while you can blow them out with Zealous Persecution, too.
I have a mixed record against infect. You tend to need a lot of removal and disruption, but if you can break them the first few turns you'll win.
Discard is very strong against them, if you've got a couple discard spells, a path, and some chump blockers you're golden. Once in a while you can blow them out with Zealous Persecution, too.
Discard is okay if you are playing first but it's a day late and a dollar short otherwise; you need to kill their turn one creature. Kill it on your turn and don't try to be cute by waiting and responding to their pump. They've got spells to provide protection and hexproof as well as Phyrexian-mana pump. You also need to be able to deal with Inkmoth Nexus. That's not much of a problem with BW as it can be with some other colors.
Having W flyers and B removal helps but you may not live to get three mana. You need the flyers if they have Inkmoth.
Some things that are worth considering for the match-up in no particular order are:
Wrench Mind would be good but I doubt the mana here would support it; Geth's Verdict might fit into that category too. It's also only good after you've dealt with the creatures. Liliana of the Veil helps make sure they don't stockpile pump spells while they're waiting to draw another creature.
There are extreme measures that one can take that aren't really very good options against much else but if you really need to hose Infect, you can try this kind of crap:
I'm actually going to try Darkness and Vendetta in another deck the next time I see the annoying 15-year-old with the Infect deck but it's mostly just for fun and they aren't really competitive cards.
I had a decent number of match-ups with it and so far I lost only once. My record is usually a 2-1 and at times 2-0, but rarely it happens.
The first 3 turns are critical since a turn 1 infect dude is already a threat and has to be dealt with ASAP. Discard really wrecks their strategies and also, Surgical Extraction helps removing those pumps spells completely. Zealous Persecution shines here and is better be played on your turn. Never try kill their creature on their turn because they can respond to a pump or protection. One resolved Spectral Procession with Intangible Virtue is enough to win the game mostly since infect gets weaker after turn 3 or 4.
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Modern Decks:WRGThe Colors of FireGRW || CUBRAge of Ultron (Affinity - Under Construction)RBUC
After many months of procrastinating and few months of not wanting to "jump on the band wagon" after the Modern Event Deck's release, I have finally piled up the cards to give this a go.
The list is largely patterned after the recent article by Melissa DeTora because she probably knows what she's doing and hey! easy that way. There are some changes based on the things the kids in my neighborhood play and well, based on personal predilections. There were also a couple of things I just didn't have enough of.
I do like the idea of playing Brimaz, King of Oreskos, but I also love my Hero; she just hits like a truck. I might try the Cat King latter.
I would have played another Zealous Persecution, but two is all I currently have; if it goes well I'll get another. If it goes really well I'll get two.
Fetid Heath is another shortage although I'm not wild about it in multiples. I played an extra fetch in the second one's place. Six feels like the right number of fetches but seven or eight is reasonable; we'll see how it goes.
I'm not going to play more than one Isolated Chapel even on Melissa DeTora's advice - I'm aware of the credibility gap between us, but I'm still not going to do it. Caves aren't great in multiples either so I'm going to try a split. I'd play two Caves before I'd play two Chapels.
Graveyard hate just isn't really needed in my neck of the woods but creature hate is always good. Kids play a lot of fair decks and they like their creatures. I wanted to test Devouring Light but I couldn't find mine. Have any of you see them? Celestial Flare is a personal favorite that will work well in several match-ups, especially against Infect. Dismember is another good card for that match-up. It's also good for any pesky pro-W or even Indestructible crap that comes along. I might give Sunlance a spin at some point.
The side-board has cards for three match-ups primarily; Burn, Infect, Aggro. The Crusaders are super against G and B (duh, right?) which are popular here and the rest are pretty well self-explanitory. The Duresses come in for Thoughtseize versus Burn.
In this thread, we agreed that Bitteblossom isn't good in the deck, but you can run it if you want.
What was the reasoning. I did a thread search for Bitterblossom, but the thread search function doesn't seem to be working for me.
I am not sure what the reasoning is as I wasnt really part of the conversation, but I am assuming because it would be fairly poor against burn and delver which are probably the 2 most popular decks right now.
In this thread, we agreed that Bitteblossom isn't good in the deck, but you can run it if you want.
What was the reasoning. I did a thread search for Bitterblossom, but the thread search function doesn't seem to be working for me.
I am not sure what the reasoning is as I wasnt really part of the conversation, but I am assuming because it would be fairly poor against burn and delver which are probably the 2 most popular decks right now.
The reasoning is it doesn't improve our bad matchups only our good matchups. BitterblossomIs a good card for resetting after a boardwipe. Since we already reset very well after a Supreme Verdict and have a favourable control matchup, there really is no need for bitterblossom in the 75 if unless your meta is very control heavy. I'd rather run raise the alarm personally.
In this thread, we agreed that Bitteblossom isn't good in the deck, but you can run it if you want.
What was the reasoning. I did a thread search for Bitterblossom, but the thread search function doesn't seem to be working for me.
I am not sure what the reasoning is as I wasnt really part of the conversation, but I am assuming because it would be fairly poor against burn and delver which are probably the 2 most popular decks right now.
The reasoning is it doesn't improve our bad matchups only our good matchups. BitterblossomIs a good card for resetting after a boardwipe. Since we already reset very well after a Supreme Verdict and have a favourable control matchup, there really is no need for bitterblossom in the 75 if unless your meta is very control heavy. I'd rather run raise the alarm personally.
I mean are we really that great at recovering fron wrath effects? I feel things like wraths are actually pretty good against us. I feel like our control match up is good more because of how well we like up against their spot removal
In this thread, we agreed that Bitteblossom isn't good in the deck, but you can run it if you want.
What was the reasoning. I did a thread search for Bitterblossom, but the thread search function doesn't seem to be working for me.
I am not sure what the reasoning is as I wasnt really part of the conversation, but I am assuming because it would be fairly poor against burn and delver which are probably the 2 most popular decks right now.
The reasoning is it doesn't improve our bad matchups only our good matchups. BitterblossomIs a good card for resetting after a boardwipe. Since we already reset very well after a Supreme Verdict and have a favourable control matchup, there really is no need for bitterblossom in the 75 if unless your meta is very control heavy. I'd rather run raise the alarm personally.
Sure, but does it make bad match ups worse or something? If if improves our good match ups, even if only our good match ups, that's still an improvement. If it was determined to be bad, there must be some draw back. Maybe the damage is too much against burn and tempo strategies. Maybe it's too slow against zoo and affinity. There has to be some reason.
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Lycanthropy Awareness Day.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Overextending is what we should really avoid so that the deck could recover from wrath effects. Like for example, having two anthems and 3 flying tokens from a single Spectral Procession is enough to win and thus no need to cast another token producer. If it gets a wrath, then we could lay down forces again.
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Modern Decks:WRGThe Colors of FireGRW || CUBRAge of Ultron (Affinity - Under Construction)RBUC
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If the question regarding the 3rd blossom is purely about 'would I risk to lose 3 life per turn?', well, that depends on the state of the field, with a vault or a sorin there, I'd go even for the 4th one, though that would be a really non-realistic board context. With 2 on the field you are good to go, it's practically over. Plus, if you decided to run 2/3 of them instead of a set, that would only reduce your chances of getting even 1 on the field. I'm sticking to the set, since it never disappointed me.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Just don't imagine that Captain Underpants is invincible in the Burn match-up; she isn't - not even game one. Super good? yes. Spectacular? probably. Not invincible.
You have to watch out for Skullcrack shenanigans so don't block with her if your opponent has open mana and cards in hand unless you really have to; it's better to chump with and lose a token than to risk Lil' Kim.
Just to spell it out, Skullcrack makes the magic underpants stop working; damage can't be prevented ergo protection from red ceases to stop the damage.
Skullcrack followed by a R sweeper is curtains as well but there's nothing much you can do about that and it's not usually something you'll see pre-board. Rest assured, if you play it long enough, folks will figure it out.
It obviously requires your cooperation or a combination of cards to pull off, so the Champ is still super in the match-up; heck, Volcanic Fallout is the favorite R sweeper in Burn and how many matches go long enough for a nineteen-land deck to scrape up five mana?
Burn has other options for the side-board too, but some of the common ones are B, which won't help them any but they've also got Pyrite Spellbomb, Ghostfire and others.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
There is also Aegis of the Gods and/or True Believer, but will just delay one burn spell or two since these will get to eat those first before it continues to your face. But hey at least, it's a reduced burn spell count to think about.
I have yet to go up against an actual infect deck. Best plan of attack is focus removal and hand disruption. They usually start hands with 1 infect creature, maybe 2. So some quick disruption will help them stall.
RUG Temur Deprive Delver
BUG Sultai Deprive Delver
Also, just cause you're only sitting at 2 poison does not mean they can't kill you that turn. I think I'd rather throw all my tokens under the bus.
I have a mixed record against infect. You tend to need a lot of removal and disruption, but if you can break them the first few turns you'll win.
Discard is very strong against them, if you've got a couple discard spells, a path, and some chump blockers you're golden. Once in a while you can blow them out with Zealous Persecution, too.
Discard is okay if you are playing first but it's a day late and a dollar short otherwise; you need to kill their turn one creature. Kill it on your turn and don't try to be cute by waiting and responding to their pump. They've got spells to provide protection and hexproof as well as Phyrexian-mana pump. You also need to be able to deal with Inkmoth Nexus. That's not much of a problem with BW as it can be with some other colors.
Having W flyers and B removal helps but you may not live to get three mana. You need the flyers if they have Inkmoth.
Some things that are worth considering for the match-up in no particular order are:
Wrench Mind would be good but I doubt the mana here would support it; Geth's Verdict might fit into that category too. It's also only good after you've dealt with the creatures. Liliana of the Veil helps make sure they don't stockpile pump spells while they're waiting to draw another creature.
There are extreme measures that one can take that aren't really very good options against much else but if you really need to hose Infect, you can try this kind of crap:
I'm actually going to try Darkness and Vendetta in another deck the next time I see the annoying 15-year-old with the Infect deck but it's mostly just for fun and they aren't really competitive cards.
[edit]Added an afterthought or three.[/edit]
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I had a decent number of match-ups with it and so far I lost only once. My record is usually a 2-1 and at times 2-0, but rarely it happens.
The first 3 turns are critical since a turn 1 infect dude is already a threat and has to be dealt with ASAP. Discard really wrecks their strategies and also, Surgical Extraction helps removing those pumps spells completely. Zealous Persecution shines here and is better be played on your turn. Never try kill their creature on their turn because they can respond to a pump or protection. One resolved Spectral Procession with Intangible Virtue is enough to win the game mostly since infect gets weaker after turn 3 or 4.
The list is largely patterned after the recent article by Melissa DeTora because she probably knows what she's doing and hey! easy that way. There are some changes based on the things the kids in my neighborhood play and well, based on personal predilections. There were also a couple of things I just didn't have enough of.
4 Auriok Champion
2 Hero of Bladehold
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth Tirel
Spells
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Flare
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Raise the Alarm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Dismember
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Fetid Heath
2 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Duress
1 Path to Exile
2 Celestial Flare
2 Dismember
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
I do like the idea of playing Brimaz, King of Oreskos, but I also love my Hero; she just hits like a truck. I might try the Cat King latter.
I would have played another Zealous Persecution, but two is all I currently have; if it goes well I'll get another. If it goes really well I'll get two.
Fetid Heath is another shortage although I'm not wild about it in multiples. I played an extra fetch in the second one's place. Six feels like the right number of fetches but seven or eight is reasonable; we'll see how it goes.
I'm not going to play more than one Isolated Chapel even on Melissa DeTora's advice - I'm aware of the credibility gap between us, but I'm still not going to do it. Caves aren't great in multiples either so I'm going to try a split. I'd play two Caves before I'd play two Chapels.
Graveyard hate just isn't really needed in my neck of the woods but creature hate is always good. Kids play a lot of fair decks and they like their creatures. I wanted to test Devouring Light but I couldn't find mine. Have any of you see them? Celestial Flare is a personal favorite that will work well in several match-ups, especially against Infect. Dismember is another good card for that match-up. It's also good for any pesky pro-W or even Indestructible crap that comes along. I might give Sunlance a spin at some point.
The side-board has cards for three match-ups primarily; Burn, Infect, Aggro. The Crusaders are super against G and B (duh, right?) which are popular here and the rest are pretty well self-explanitory. The Duresses come in for Thoughtseize versus Burn.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
What was the reasoning. I did a thread search for Bitterblossom, but the thread search function doesn't seem to be working for me.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I am not sure what the reasoning is as I wasnt really part of the conversation, but I am assuming because it would be fairly poor against burn and delver which are probably the 2 most popular decks right now.
The reasoning is it doesn't improve our bad matchups only our good matchups. BitterblossomIs a good card for resetting after a boardwipe. Since we already reset very well after a Supreme Verdict and have a favourable control matchup, there really is no need for bitterblossom in the 75 if unless your meta is very control heavy. I'd rather run raise the alarm personally.
I mean are we really that great at recovering fron wrath effects? I feel things like wraths are actually pretty good against us. I feel like our control match up is good more because of how well we like up against their spot removal
Sure, but does it make bad match ups worse or something? If if improves our good match ups, even if only our good match ups, that's still an improvement. If it was determined to be bad, there must be some draw back. Maybe the damage is too much against burn and tempo strategies. Maybe it's too slow against zoo and affinity. There has to be some reason.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)