I would not feel comfortable playing an Illusory Angel or Talrand without countermagic to protect it/generate value. That means I need to have 5 or 6 mana before casting either of these cards.
Clique is quite powerful, but good because it comes down at Instant speed. You can leave up 3 mana and force them to spend mana on their turn to deal with it.
Illusory Angel might be playable, Talrand seems unplayable. Getting a 4 drop bolted is a lot of tempo loss, plus you have to play awful cards like Gutshot which is card disadvantage.
The question with Illusory Angel is whether you'll be able to Gitaxian Probe with it. Gitaxian Probe is amazing on turn 1 because it gives you the info on how to beat your opponent, and it's also used in conjunction with Young Pyromancer for 2 life, put a 1/1 token in play. Without Gitaxian Probe, we would have to tap out on turn 4 to play Angel, which is probably not where this deck wants to be, assuming you even hit the first 4 land drops. I actually think the biggest draw for going W is Restoration Angel, a flash creature that doesn't die to Bolt, protects Pyromancer, and synergizes with Snapcaster is amazing. Illusory Angel feels too iffy to me, too much to setup, conditionally good, and not too awarding to play.
Has anyone tried out Stoke The Flames? I know Flame Slash is often a card in UR Delver lists and while the CMC of Stoke is high, you should only have to pay full price rarely in this deck, plus the fact that it's an Instant and can go to the face are both huge pluses. I'm currently running a list with two Grim Lavamancers and am thinking about cutting one for a singleton Stoke. Anyone else test it?
Good morning all. I've heard some talk recently of a Ru version running Goblin Guide and more burn and U for Delver, Remand, probe, Serum Visions. Pyromancer and the typical burn suite. Has anyone tried such a build and have any feedback?
I've ran several different variations and just from my experience I prefer the U/r setup over the R/u. Our deck is just a very fair playing deck and even against another fair deck straight burn setup usually isn't fast enough and leaves us very vulnerable without a proper amount of counter included. I tried just running only mana leaks for counter and found that to be terrible against other control or midrange decks they could just easily out attrition me since I had very little protection for my creatures. I definitely advise running a good split of counters and burn for extra protection and as for the goblin guides go I love the little guy but I just can't find a reason to run him over illusory angel and grim lavamamcer aside from the delvers,snapcasters,and pyromancers which I would not even consider running less than 4 of each of those. I do however pack some extra burn in the board for matches we're burn matters over counter like pod and even affinity.
Has anyone tried Talrand as a one of yet I know he has been discussed before and I as well believed he was to slow to matter but after seeing Finkel 4-0 running him and illusory angel as a 1 of with 18 lands I'm very curious what match ups he matters in maybe mirror or UWr?
Im not expert on this deck, But talrand seems far to fragile for whole format It dies to everything except decay and it costs 4 mana. Young pyromancer makes less powerful tokens and will also be lightning rod in lot of cases, but it costs half of Talrand´s cost. Also When Pyromancer hits the field, even if your opponent tries to kill it you can still shut of few instants and get some value, unless you are casting him on T2, With talranc you can do that, considering playing 18-20 lands in like turn 6? That is not such great deal.
Also had anyone tried Gut shot maindcek as 1-2 of? It goes pretty well with illusory angel and young pyromancer and it can kill realy lot of creatures in the format and 1 damage can sometimes mean much more than it sounds like.
Agree with your sentiments for the most part. Talrand is probably okay, and you would only want to bring him in for match ups that are planning on going long (Jund, UWR, Mirror). Curving out with him on 4 is not really necessary. But if I'm doing that I would rather just pay 1 extra for Keranos and get value that is indestructible and hard to deal with. Or Sword of X and Y.
Gut shot, on the other hand, seems like a totally reasonable 2 of. When the format has become such that this card is playable, Delver is a happy little bug indeed.
this is the basic list I've been running the side board of course shifts depending on the meta, I only play on MTGO at the moment so you can guess what match ups I would gear it too.
I have so far really liked the switches in creatures. previous to the inclusion of Illusory Angel I was beginning to feel as though the major decks had all developed crushingly powerful game plans against UR delver decks, Pod can even afford to main deck Pontiff. Jund seemed like the entire game depended on you sticking a Young Pyromancer and dealing enough damage to pray for Snap Bolt kill. with both Twin and Jund running a massive amount of 1 for 1 removal spells I would often never be able to stick a threat long enough to make any real gains on the board. So far the inclusion of the Angel and Talrand have helped pull past their removal. I had used Talrand in the Past and found that he was often to little to late and that if turn three started with no viable threat on board to apply pressure that I was essentially to far behind on turn 4 when Talrand would hit the table. Illusory Angel really helps fill that gap. Angel also improves a top decked mid game delver; playing delver into angel on 4 is just way stronger and helps stretch our opponents resources even thinner.
Illusory Angel, Talrand, and Gut Shot are all great against pod, Gut shot is particularly good in this match up. with deathrite shaman gone Pod leans very heavy on sticking a 0/1 mana dork in the first turn. I've tried Twisted Image and use it out of the side board, but gut shot essentially gives us a turn 0 play when we are on the draw and allows us to cast Delver and kill their Mana dork. I've had a few games against pod which I gut shot their t1 mana dork, played delver they replay a mana dork t2, I cast snap+gut shot on t2. often they have kept a hand expecting to turn 2 drop a Birthing Pod and many times they brick on the third land or simply lack the board needed to get Birthing Pod going. with such a early hick up to their game plan its easy to stick a Young Pyromancer and start producing tokens, sticking a angel also makes their board recovery strategy much worse as we will be left with a 4/4 flier to likely finish the game out.
Stoke the Flames is also very good so far. it plays a out of no where finisher or a out of no where removal spell. I've closed out a handful of games against players who are likely just assuming they have one more turn, them at 10 life me with Young Pyromancer, Flipped Delver, 1 token ready to attack, 4 or more produced off of serum visions, probes, and any of the other cheap spells. they have verdict or some other sweeper in hand attack for 6, bam tap all the tokens to sneak in the Stoke the Flames. so far its good, but I feel like once its a common enough play it will be factored into more players combat math and it will get played around.
just trying out Void Snare so far it is very useful, I know its slow being a sorcery and all, but it does help with some of the more problematic noncreature permanents. its a main deckable answer to cranial plating, a resolved birthing pod, Lilianna etc.. allowing us a second chance at keeping it off the table for good while still letting us clear the board of creatures if we need it. I board it out often for a more direct answer if one is available but it does a great job game one as a catch all answer that doesn't work against our primary goals.
What do people think about Perilous Research? You could use it when you don't have a better response to removal or when you have Young Pyromancer and can just get rid of a token.
I really like the inclusion of Runechanter's Pike in U/R and would like to see/try 2. It really makes the YP tokens worthwhile, though TBH I havnen't tried it, just going on theory. Stoke the Flames I'm less sure of. It seems a little win more because we have to have creatures in play in order to efficiently cast it, but the most common way we are beaten is by removal overloading our threats. Again, haven't tried it, but I'm skeptical.
I played Stoke the Flames this past weekend in a 150 person PTQ, where I went 4-3 drop. It was fine but I never got any spectacular use out of it. I killed a 4/4 Ajani's Pridemate and a Liliana of the Veil with it in two different matches, and domed a guy in the face before bricking on my next draw step and losing. I think I'd rather run another Electrolyze instead.
Say I wanted to run a planeswalker for card advantage in grindy matches (which may be a terrible idea but I think I want to at least try it). I'm conflicted between: Chandra, Pyromaster: Could often use the 0 ability with all of our cheap spells for repeatable card advantage. Could stop a blocker for the win. Ral Zarek: You at least get a sorcery speed bolt for your 4 mana even if it dies right away. If it isn't answered at all you can bolt again or tap a blocker etc. Koth of the Hammer: Would probably be better if we were heavier red rather than heavier blue, but getting a 4/4 attacker each turn could be pretty cool. Jace Beleren: Less mana than the other options. The effect seems pretty meh to me compared to the other 3 though.
Say I wanted to run a planeswalker for card advantage in grindy matches (which may be a terrible idea but I think I want to at least try it). I'm conflicted between: Chandra, Pyromaster: Could often use the 0 ability with all of our cheap spells for repeatable card advantage. Could stop a blocker for the win. Ral Zarek: You at least get a sorcery speed bolt for your 4 mana even if it dies right away. If it isn't answered at all you can bolt again or tap a blocker etc. Koth of the Hammer: Would probably be better if we were heavier red rather than heavier blue, but getting a 4/4 attacker each turn could be pretty cool. Jace Beleren: Less mana than the other options. The effect seems pretty meh to me compared to the other 3 though.
..okay these aren't planeswalkers, but you get the idea. These are more impactful and/or easier to cast than the aforementioned PW's (RR is ambitious), but will give you the effect I think you want.
Yea it seems like you are correct. Batterskull and Keranos are 5 instead of 4 but the extra mana is probably worth it. I think I'll probably try Keranos because I do have the sword already and I'm thinking of perhaps using Vedalken Shackles and I don't want their artifact removal to also hit batterskull.]
EDIT:
Also, so far in my semi-casual testing Perilous Research seems amazing. And because we don't need too many lands AND we get to see if we draw lands off the two draws first it often seems safe to even sacrifice a land. Although when playing against mono blue tron he did make me sacrifice my Keranos, God of Storms to a topdecked perilous research after he mindslavered me which was both awesome and terrible
Clique is quite powerful, but good because it comes down at Instant speed. You can leave up 3 mana and force them to spend mana on their turn to deal with it.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
The question with Illusory Angel is whether you'll be able to Gitaxian Probe with it. Gitaxian Probe is amazing on turn 1 because it gives you the info on how to beat your opponent, and it's also used in conjunction with Young Pyromancer for 2 life, put a 1/1 token in play. Without Gitaxian Probe, we would have to tap out on turn 4 to play Angel, which is probably not where this deck wants to be, assuming you even hit the first 4 land drops. I actually think the biggest draw for going W is Restoration Angel, a flash creature that doesn't die to Bolt, protects Pyromancer, and synergizes with Snapcaster is amazing. Illusory Angel feels too iffy to me, too much to setup, conditionally good, and not too awarding to play.
I've ran several different variations and just from my experience I prefer the U/r setup over the R/u. Our deck is just a very fair playing deck and even against another fair deck straight burn setup usually isn't fast enough and leaves us very vulnerable without a proper amount of counter included. I tried just running only mana leaks for counter and found that to be terrible against other control or midrange decks they could just easily out attrition me since I had very little protection for my creatures. I definitely advise running a good split of counters and burn for extra protection and as for the goblin guides go I love the little guy but I just can't find a reason to run him over illusory angel and grim lavamamcer aside from the delvers,snapcasters,and pyromancers which I would not even consider running less than 4 of each of those. I do however pack some extra burn in the board for matches we're burn matters over counter like pod and even affinity.
Agree with your sentiments for the most part. Talrand is probably okay, and you would only want to bring him in for match ups that are planning on going long (Jund, UWR, Mirror). Curving out with him on 4 is not really necessary. But if I'm doing that I would rather just pay 1 extra for Keranos and get value that is indestructible and hard to deal with. Or Sword of X and Y.
Gut shot, on the other hand, seems like a totally reasonable 2 of. When the format has become such that this card is playable, Delver is a happy little bug indeed.
4xYoung Pyromancer
4xSnapcaster Mage
2xIllusory Angel
2xTalrand, Sky Summoner
4xGitaxian Probe
4xLighting Bolt
4xSerum Visions
4xRemand
2xVoid Snare
2xStoke The Flames
2xGut Shot
1xVapor Snag
1xSpell Snare
1xSpell Pierce
1xDesolate Lighthouse
4xScalding Tarn
4xSteam Vents
3xSulfur Falls
2xMountain
5xIsland
[/deck]
this is the basic list I've been running the side board of course shifts depending on the meta, I only play on MTGO at the moment so you can guess what match ups I would gear it too.
I have so far really liked the switches in creatures. previous to the inclusion of Illusory Angel I was beginning to feel as though the major decks had all developed crushingly powerful game plans against UR delver decks, Pod can even afford to main deck Pontiff. Jund seemed like the entire game depended on you sticking a Young Pyromancer and dealing enough damage to pray for Snap Bolt kill. with both Twin and Jund running a massive amount of 1 for 1 removal spells I would often never be able to stick a threat long enough to make any real gains on the board. So far the inclusion of the Angel and Talrand have helped pull past their removal. I had used Talrand in the Past and found that he was often to little to late and that if turn three started with no viable threat on board to apply pressure that I was essentially to far behind on turn 4 when Talrand would hit the table. Illusory Angel really helps fill that gap. Angel also improves a top decked mid game delver; playing delver into angel on 4 is just way stronger and helps stretch our opponents resources even thinner.
Illusory Angel, Talrand, and Gut Shot are all great against pod, Gut shot is particularly good in this match up. with deathrite shaman gone Pod leans very heavy on sticking a 0/1 mana dork in the first turn. I've tried Twisted Image and use it out of the side board, but gut shot essentially gives us a turn 0 play when we are on the draw and allows us to cast Delver and kill their Mana dork. I've had a few games against pod which I gut shot their t1 mana dork, played delver they replay a mana dork t2, I cast snap+gut shot on t2. often they have kept a hand expecting to turn 2 drop a Birthing Pod and many times they brick on the third land or simply lack the board needed to get Birthing Pod going. with such a early hick up to their game plan its easy to stick a Young Pyromancer and start producing tokens, sticking a angel also makes their board recovery strategy much worse as we will be left with a 4/4 flier to likely finish the game out.
Stoke the Flames is also very good so far. it plays a out of no where finisher or a out of no where removal spell. I've closed out a handful of games against players who are likely just assuming they have one more turn, them at 10 life me with Young Pyromancer, Flipped Delver, 1 token ready to attack, 4 or more produced off of serum visions, probes, and any of the other cheap spells. they have verdict or some other sweeper in hand attack for 6, bam tap all the tokens to sneak in the Stoke the Flames. so far its good, but I feel like once its a common enough play it will be factored into more players combat math and it will get played around.
just trying out Void Snare so far it is very useful, I know its slow being a sorcery and all, but it does help with some of the more problematic noncreature permanents. its a main deckable answer to cranial plating, a resolved birthing pod, Lilianna etc.. allowing us a second chance at keeping it off the table for good while still letting us clear the board of creatures if we need it. I board it out often for a more direct answer if one is available but it does a great job game one as a catch all answer that doesn't work against our primary goals.
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I really like the inclusion of Runechanter's Pike in U/R and would like to see/try 2. It really makes the YP tokens worthwhile, though TBH I havnen't tried it, just going on theory. Stoke the Flames I'm less sure of. It seems a little win more because we have to have creatures in play in order to efficiently cast it, but the most common way we are beaten is by removal overloading our threats. Again, haven't tried it, but I'm skeptical.
Chandra, Pyromaster: Could often use the 0 ability with all of our cheap spells for repeatable card advantage. Could stop a blocker for the win.
Ral Zarek: You at least get a sorcery speed bolt for your 4 mana even if it dies right away. If it isn't answered at all you can bolt again or tap a blocker etc.
Koth of the Hammer: Would probably be better if we were heavier red rather than heavier blue, but getting a 4/4 attacker each turn could be pretty cool.
Jace Beleren: Less mana than the other options. The effect seems pretty meh to me compared to the other 3 though.
Seems like the planeswalkers you are looking for are:
Batterskull
Keranos, God of Storms
Sword of Fire and Ice
..okay these aren't planeswalkers, but you get the idea. These are more impactful and/or easier to cast than the aforementioned PW's (RR is ambitious), but will give you the effect I think you want.
EDIT:
Also, so far in my semi-casual testing Perilous Research seems amazing. And because we don't need too many lands AND we get to see if we draw lands off the two draws first it often seems safe to even sacrifice a land. Although when playing against mono blue tron he did make me sacrifice my Keranos, God of Storms to a topdecked perilous research after he mindslavered me which was both awesome and terrible