I thought just might wanna post my testing list. I'm not confident on Illusory Angel, and Im not comfortable running Grim Lavamancer without fetches, so im trying a 1-1 Split with Angel and Grim Lavamancer for testing.
The card I wanted to highlight is Stoke the Flames. Its seems well placed in the deck and can close games if needed. It also works well with Snapcaster as Convoke works off flashback as well (You can pay its flashback cost with creatures). I'm testing 2 copies replacing a Pillar of Flame and an Electrolyze over it. Its very good as you can use unflipped Delvers, Pyro tokens to pay for convoke, making its 4 mana cost way way lesser to pay. 4 damage also means we are able to kill cards like Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch etc in the main without resorting to token trade, but Stoke's main purpose is to burn the face and close games quickly.
I don't post here much.. but I figured I'd drop my 2 cents..
I understand you guys love Pyromancer, and he can be great.. but you have to tune the deck to him so much that sometimes it actually hinders your deck's performance
I have a UR Delver list that I'll share and I've had some success with it. It's much more controlling, but also much MUCH more consistent.
I apologize ahead of time for the lack of links, but like I said I don't post here much and honestly if you don't know the following cards, you probably shouldn't be in the Modern forum in the first place...
Instants: (honestly, why would you even run sorceries?? oh yeah, Pyromancer)
Lightning Bolt x4
Remand x4
Cryptic Command x4
Spell Pierce x3
Spell Snare x3
Electrolyze x2
Magma Jet x2
Condescend x2
Izzet Charm x1
Sorcery: (Yep, just one)
Anger of the Gods x1
Artifact:
Vedalken Shackles x1
Planeswalkers:
Jace Beleren x2
Lands: (22)
Scalding Tarn x4
Misty Rainforest x2
Steam Vents x4
Sulfur Falls x2
Breeding Pool x1 (green for sideboard options)
Tectonic Edge x2
Mutavault x2
Island x4
Mountain x1
I don't run Pyromancer because I like the more controlling approach to the deck. We have plenty of burn, shackles, Stormbreath, and more burn just to finish them off. Not to mention Delver. I also am not a fan of vapor snag. It's great with Pyromancer, sure, but without Young Peezy it's just another weak card. Bouncing doesn't win you the game, similar to how Remand doesn't truly counter a spell. It sets them back a bit, or maybe you'll get lucky and bounce a token, but other than that Snag is really just there for Young P. Also don't like Serum Visions. "OMG What did he say???" Yep I said no Serum Visions. WtF do you need this card for?? Mana fixing? Add another couple lands (like Muta and Tec) and if you want to setup your top deck for Delver, use more proactive cards. There's a lot of Scrying available in Modern. Serum is GREAT in 3 color decks, combo decks, and decks that dig for much-needed answers. By dropping visions/pyromancer and just filling your deck with more answers you have stream-lined your approach and enhanced your consistency. Wtf is a hand full of pyromancers gonna do against pyroclasm or anger of the gods or electrolyze? He gets eaten alive. So do his tokens. I understand he can be good, I just don't think he belongs in U/R Delver which is designed to be more controlling anyway. Plus he weakens your chances of flipping Delver.
My one of's: Stormbreath Dragon: Pro path. Pro Resto Angel. Pro Baneslayer. Pro PRO PRO WHITE!!!! AMAZING creature and great finisher. And with all of the card draw and deck manipulation, you WILL see him and he will be GLORIOUS every single time. Tempted to run 2, but 2 in the opener sucks donkey balls. Anger of the Gods: Really useful in the main and still somewhat surprising to see for most players. Seems to be trending though. Keeping just 1 is great because it's there when we need it and doesn't show up much when it could be a dead card. Shackles: Another backup to Anger, in the sense that it just takes over a creature matchup. This card is great, and I run enough islands to take just about anything. Izzet Charm: A 4th copy of spell pierce (the best way to keep Delver alive early) can also be used to dig for answers and serves as another magma jet of sorts. Great versatility.
Last but not least... 2 Jace Beleren. Stuck in a stagnant stalemate? Hoping to take some pressure off your life total? Need to out-pace that mirror match? He's your man. Great 3 drop. -1 him until he is almost dead, then +2 him and then bring him back down again. I have enough removal/control to keep him alive long enough that usually you get 5 cards and they get 1. Awesome advantage. Also gets through the deck to find answers (namely the one of's).
I know pyromancer seems too aggro for cryptic. Which is also a shame because Cryptic is one of and always will be one of the best spells in Modern. It's amazeballs and you all know it. Pair it with snapcaster and opponents just want to wither and die. Cryptic REALLY gets it done.
Good luck guys.. and let me know what you think. Pz.
i agree with you on Serum Visions YP, and probe i think they slow the deck down also, i always thought of using more burn or counter magic instead of vision and probe.
I was also thinking about adding 4 Goblin electromancers to this deck instead of YP and playing more hard counter like Dissolve or Dissipate or Cancel
UR Delver has a ton of potential but i dnt think its with YP Vision And probe, hopefully my idea is useful to you guys let me know what you think.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
‘If you dream of beating me, you’d better wake up and apologize.’
How about removing 2 grim, 1 sword and 2 or 3 other spells, adding kiki-exarch combo? I know i would be nearly an other deck rip off, but also would give another way to win.
The deck, as stated, has become a little bit stagnant without being able to stand as T1 deck, and maybe a combo could push him...
Why not play straight UR twin then?
I don't think that some random YPs make up for dilueting the most dominant deck of the format.
- L
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Let me know what you guys think about thus type of deck
I'm just not finished building the deck, but i also thought about mancer once or twice.
the list does indeed contain only 10 Inst/Sorc with colorless Mana, is that enough?
What about cutting mancer down to 3? It's not that great if doubled on the battlefield.
Is there a reason to cut Remand?
Yea I can see that being done. Posted your deck list when your finished, and about remand it's just personal preference, I find myself wanting a hard counter.but yea add remand if you want.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
‘If you dream of beating me, you’d better wake up and apologize.’
Let me know what you guys think about thus type of deck
Goblin Electromancer doesn't seem like the place you want to be. It doesn't really do anything powerful for you; your bottleneck is almost always colored mana, and you usually aren't aiming to cast 3 or more spells per turn, which is where he generates the most value. I'd rather be on a card that is threatening by itself; this deck can't really exploit the mana-generation aspect of Electromancer, so he's just a 2/2.
Also, Dissipate? That card is far too expensive for what it does in this format.
I do agree with Mutavault. That card has a spot in this deck, in my opinion.
How about removing 2 grim, 1 sword and 2 or 3 other spells, adding kiki-exarch combo? I know i would be nearly an other deck rip off, but also would give another way to win.
The deck, as stated, has become a little bit stagnant without being able to stand as T1 deck, and maybe a combo could push him...
If you want to play Exarch-Twin, then play Exarch-Twin. There's no reason to create a hybrid of those decks that does a mediocre job at playing either tempo or combo.
Yea I can see that being done. Posted your deck list when your finished, and about remand it's just personal preference, I find myself wanting a hard counter.but yea add remand if you want.
Remand is like... the third best card in the deck (after Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster Mage). I can't imagine cutting it. It does everything you want to in this deck: buys time to kill them and replaces itself.
The Mesa is there because (you guess right) budgetary reasons.
26 Instants is enough to run Bolas IMO.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
Devon Herron came in second at the SCG KC Modern tournament with this deck. It looks like a pretty standard list, but it's exciting to see the deck performing well.
Devon Herron came in second at the SCG KC Modern tournament with this deck. It looks like a pretty standard list, but it's exciting to see the deck performing well.
The one of Mizzium Mortars in the sideboard seems interesting? Why not just play something like Bonfire of the Damned if you will be playing a card like that? I feel like neither of them really fit into this deck?
Devon Herron came in second at the SCG KC Modern tournament with this deck. It looks like a pretty standard list, but it's exciting to see the deck performing well.
The one of Mizzium Mortars in the sideboard seems interesting? Why not just play something like Bonfire of the Damned if you will be playing a card like that? I feel like neither of them really fit into this deck?
The reasoning is that you can at least snap off a mortars to kill something random on turn 2 while bonfire would rot in your hand. But yeah, neither really fit in the deck. 6 lands is a lot to hit in a 19 land deck, even with all of the cantrips, so the upside for mortars over, say, Flame Slash is small while the downside of costing twice as much is brutal. Maybe he had it in mind for a particular matchup, but I can't imagine what that would be. BW Tokens maybe? I suppose Izzet Staticaster can't sweep their board when they have an anthem out, but this can.
I also don't like the Shattering Spree's. Sorcery speed and not guaranteed a 2 for 1 is pretty mopey against Affinity. Adding 4 more fetches and a Breeding Pool to the manabase for Ancient Grudge out of the board is almost certainly better, but maybe he had card availability issues.
Devon Herron came in second at the SCG KC Modern tournament with this deck. It looks like a pretty standard list, but it's exciting to see the deck performing well.
The one of Mizzium Mortars in the sideboard seems interesting? Why not just play something like Bonfire of the Damned if you will be playing a card like that? I feel like neither of them really fit into this deck?
The reasoning is that you can at least snap off a mortars to kill something random on turn 2 while bonfire would rot in your hand. But yeah, neither really fit in the deck. 6 lands is a lot to hit in a 19 land deck, even with all of the cantrips, so the upside for mortars over, say, Flame Slash is small while the downside of costing twice as much is brutal. Maybe he had it in mind for a particular matchup, but I can't imagine what that would be. BW Tokens maybe? I suppose Izzet Staticaster can't sweep their board when they have an anthem out, but this can.
I also don't like the Shattering Spree's. Sorcery speed and not guaranteed a 2 for 1 is pretty mopey against Affinity. Adding 4 more fetches and a Breeding Pool to the manabase for Ancient Grudge out of the board is almost certainly better, but maybe he had card availability issues.
I totally agree that a Bonfire of the Damned would rot in your hand, I was looking at it as if you'd be using both cards for the same function. But it is true that Mizzium Mortars would have a little more usefulness than it.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
Ok, understand Eidolon, Dakra and Dissolve but not Augur.
It's just cantrippin and chump blocking, nothing more.
The argument of dying to everything is right, but that's just the destiny of every other creature in the deck.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
Ok, understand Eidolon, Dakra and Dissolve but not Augur.
It's just cantrippin and chump blocking, nothing more.
The argument of dying to everything is right, but that's just the destiny of every other creature in the deck.
But there's no upside if it doesn't die. A vanilla 1/3 in play is pretty worthless in modern, so you're just playing him for the ability to draw instants and sorceries - he's like a weird cantrip. But unlike a normal cantrip he doesn't flip Delver and can't find lands or creatures, which are both often things you're digging for.
But there's no upside if it doesn't die. A vanilla 1/3 in play is pretty worthless in modern, so you're just playing him for the ability to draw instants and sorceries - he's like a weird cantrip. But unlike a normal cantrip he doesn't flip Delver and can't find lands or creatures, which are both often things you're digging for.
Do i want to find Lands or creatures? If i'm digging 3 cards deep to find an instant, would a Probe be better to find a land or creature? I don't think so, thats why i included him.
Ok, maybe i need to find a list not running YP, so i'm able to focus more on not running Probe and Visions.
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
5 Island
2 Mountain
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Illusory Angel
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
1 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
2 Stoke the Flames
2 Magma Spray
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Vandalblast
2 Molten Rain
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dismember
2 Combust
I thought just might wanna post my testing list. I'm not confident on Illusory Angel, and Im not comfortable running Grim Lavamancer without fetches, so im trying a 1-1 Split with Angel and Grim Lavamancer for testing.
The card I wanted to highlight is Stoke the Flames. Its seems well placed in the deck and can close games if needed. It also works well with Snapcaster as Convoke works off flashback as well (You can pay its flashback cost with creatures). I'm testing 2 copies replacing a Pillar of Flame and an Electrolyze over it. Its very good as you can use unflipped Delvers, Pyro tokens to pay for convoke, making its 4 mana cost way way lesser to pay. 4 damage also means we are able to kill cards like Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch etc in the main without resorting to token trade, but Stoke's main purpose is to burn the face and close games quickly.
I understand you guys love Pyromancer, and he can be great.. but you have to tune the deck to him so much that sometimes it actually hinders your deck's performance
I have a UR Delver list that I'll share and I've had some success with it. It's much more controlling, but also much MUCH more consistent.
I apologize ahead of time for the lack of links, but like I said I don't post here much and honestly if you don't know the following cards, you probably shouldn't be in the Modern forum in the first place...
Creatures:
Delver of Secrets x4
Snapcaster Mage x4
Stormbreath Dragon x1
Instants: (honestly, why would you even run sorceries?? oh yeah, Pyromancer)
Lightning Bolt x4
Remand x4
Cryptic Command x4
Spell Pierce x3
Spell Snare x3
Electrolyze x2
Magma Jet x2
Condescend x2
Izzet Charm x1
Sorcery: (Yep, just one)
Anger of the Gods x1
Artifact:
Vedalken Shackles x1
Planeswalkers:
Jace Beleren x2
Lands: (22)
Scalding Tarn x4
Misty Rainforest x2
Steam Vents x4
Sulfur Falls x2
Breeding Pool x1 (green for sideboard options)
Tectonic Edge x2
Mutavault x2
Island x4
Mountain x1
I don't run Pyromancer because I like the more controlling approach to the deck. We have plenty of burn, shackles, Stormbreath, and more burn just to finish them off. Not to mention Delver. I also am not a fan of vapor snag. It's great with Pyromancer, sure, but without Young Peezy it's just another weak card. Bouncing doesn't win you the game, similar to how Remand doesn't truly counter a spell. It sets them back a bit, or maybe you'll get lucky and bounce a token, but other than that Snag is really just there for Young P. Also don't like Serum Visions. "OMG What did he say???" Yep I said no Serum Visions. WtF do you need this card for?? Mana fixing? Add another couple lands (like Muta and Tec) and if you want to setup your top deck for Delver, use more proactive cards. There's a lot of Scrying available in Modern. Serum is GREAT in 3 color decks, combo decks, and decks that dig for much-needed answers. By dropping visions/pyromancer and just filling your deck with more answers you have stream-lined your approach and enhanced your consistency. Wtf is a hand full of pyromancers gonna do against pyroclasm or anger of the gods or electrolyze? He gets eaten alive. So do his tokens. I understand he can be good, I just don't think he belongs in U/R Delver which is designed to be more controlling anyway. Plus he weakens your chances of flipping Delver.
My one of's: Stormbreath Dragon: Pro path. Pro Resto Angel. Pro Baneslayer. Pro PRO PRO WHITE!!!! AMAZING creature and great finisher. And with all of the card draw and deck manipulation, you WILL see him and he will be GLORIOUS every single time. Tempted to run 2, but 2 in the opener sucks donkey balls. Anger of the Gods: Really useful in the main and still somewhat surprising to see for most players. Seems to be trending though. Keeping just 1 is great because it's there when we need it and doesn't show up much when it could be a dead card. Shackles: Another backup to Anger, in the sense that it just takes over a creature matchup. This card is great, and I run enough islands to take just about anything. Izzet Charm: A 4th copy of spell pierce (the best way to keep Delver alive early) can also be used to dig for answers and serves as another magma jet of sorts. Great versatility.
Last but not least... 2 Jace Beleren. Stuck in a stagnant stalemate? Hoping to take some pressure off your life total? Need to out-pace that mirror match? He's your man. Great 3 drop. -1 him until he is almost dead, then +2 him and then bring him back down again. I have enough removal/control to keep him alive long enough that usually you get 5 cards and they get 1. Awesome advantage. Also gets through the deck to find answers (namely the one of's).
I know pyromancer seems too aggro for cryptic. Which is also a shame because Cryptic is one of and always will be one of the best spells in Modern. It's amazeballs and you all know it. Pair it with snapcaster and opponents just want to wither and die. Cryptic REALLY gets it done.
Good luck guys.. and let me know what you think. Pz.
I was also thinking about adding 4 Goblin electromancers to this deck instead of YP and playing more hard counter like Dissolve or Dissipate or Cancel
UR Delver has a ton of potential but i dnt think its with YP Vision And probe, hopefully my idea is useful to you guys let me know what you think.
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
In what world is this "too slow?"
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Delver of Secrets x4
Snapcaster Mage x4
Goblin Electromancers x4
Chandra's Phoenix x2 (or another finisher ex. Stormbreath dragon)
Spells:23
Lightning Bolt x4
Mana Leak x3
Dissolve x2
Spell Snare x2
Magma Jet x3
Deprive x2
Dissipate x2
Spell Pierce x2
Electrolyze x2
Vapor Snag x2
Maybe(if not add 2 more spells)
Planeswalkers:
Jace Beleren x2
Lands:20
Scalding Tarn x4
Misty Rainforest x2
Steam Vents x4
Sulfur Falls x3
Tectonic Edge x1
Mutavault x2
Island x3
Mountain x1
Let me know what you guys think about thus type of deck
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Knowing your opponent cards is the best thing in magic, after draw a card. And probe does both!
Plus is a good combo with YP.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Why not play straight UR twin then?
I don't think that some random YPs make up for dilueting the most dominant deck of the format.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I'm just not finished building the deck, but i also thought about mancer once or twice.
the list does indeed contain only 10 Inst/Sorc with colorless Mana, is that enough?
What about cutting mancer down to 3? It's not that great if doubled on the battlefield.
Is there a reason to cut Remand?
Green @ it's best
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
Modern Only
Currently Running:
BG Midrange
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/297
The Lists are not that special, but i am interested in 2 Cards
Eidolon of the Great Revel in my SB vs. Storm in general
Dakra Mystic hasn't been discussed here. One other option I'd like to include is Bolas Augur
My list isn't complete yet, but a rough sketch look like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Bolas Augur
1 Dakra Mystic
2 Izzet Charm
2 Magma Jet
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Condescend
2 Repeal
2 Dissolve
2 Jace Beleren
2 Arid Mesa
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Mountain
7 Island
1 Desolate Lighthouse
The Mesa is there because (you guess right) budgetary reasons.
26 Instants is enough to run Bolas IMO.
Green @ it's best
Goblin Electromancer doesn't seem like the place you want to be. It doesn't really do anything powerful for you; your bottleneck is almost always colored mana, and you usually aren't aiming to cast 3 or more spells per turn, which is where he generates the most value. I'd rather be on a card that is threatening by itself; this deck can't really exploit the mana-generation aspect of Electromancer, so he's just a 2/2.
Also, Dissipate? That card is far too expensive for what it does in this format.
I do agree with Mutavault. That card has a spot in this deck, in my opinion.
If you want to play Exarch-Twin, then play Exarch-Twin. There's no reason to create a hybrid of those decks that does a mediocre job at playing either tempo or combo.
Remand is like... the third best card in the deck (after Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster Mage). I can't imagine cutting it. It does everything you want to in this deck: buys time to kill them and replaces itself.
Dakra Mystic is slow and doesn't generate much value on its own. Eidolon of the Great Revel is unnecessary; you'd rather play something like Counterflux.
Augur of Bolas is not a tempo card. A 1/3 that dies to everything is not a real threat in this format.
Dissolve is slow. I don't want to be paying more than 2 mana for my counterspells unless they are offensively powerful (a la Cryptic Command or the already mentioned Counterflux).
2 fetches isn't enough, in my opinion. 4-5 is optimal. Also, you NEED blue fetches for this deck. It just doesn't function well without them.
Jace is not a tempo card, nor do I think he's powerful enough for Modern in general.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
The one of Mizzium Mortars in the sideboard seems interesting? Why not just play something like Bonfire of the Damned if you will be playing a card like that? I feel like neither of them really fit into this deck?
The reasoning is that you can at least snap off a mortars to kill something random on turn 2 while bonfire would rot in your hand. But yeah, neither really fit in the deck. 6 lands is a lot to hit in a 19 land deck, even with all of the cantrips, so the upside for mortars over, say, Flame Slash is small while the downside of costing twice as much is brutal. Maybe he had it in mind for a particular matchup, but I can't imagine what that would be. BW Tokens maybe? I suppose Izzet Staticaster can't sweep their board when they have an anthem out, but this can.
I also don't like the Shattering Spree's. Sorcery speed and not guaranteed a 2 for 1 is pretty mopey against Affinity. Adding 4 more fetches and a Breeding Pool to the manabase for Ancient Grudge out of the board is almost certainly better, but maybe he had card availability issues.
I totally agree that a Bonfire of the Damned would rot in your hand, I was looking at it as if you'd be using both cards for the same function. But it is true that Mizzium Mortars would have a little more usefulness than it.
Ok, understand Eidolon, Dakra and Dissolve but not Augur.
It's just cantrippin and chump blocking, nothing more.
The argument of dying to everything is right, but that's just the destiny of every other creature in the deck.
Green @ it's best
But there's no upside if it doesn't die. A vanilla 1/3 in play is pretty worthless in modern, so you're just playing him for the ability to draw instants and sorceries - he's like a weird cantrip. But unlike a normal cantrip he doesn't flip Delver and can't find lands or creatures, which are both often things you're digging for.
Do i want to find Lands or creatures? If i'm digging 3 cards deep to find an instant, would a Probe be better to find a land or creature? I don't think so, thats why i included him.
Ok, maybe i need to find a list not running YP, so i'm able to focus more on not running Probe and Visions.
Green @ it's best