I remember a version of this a buddy was running years ago that had a Patron of the Moon + Meloku the Clouded Mirror which would result in infinite 1/1's and mana. His list did not run Hive Mind but ran Patron+Meloku and even ran Spawnsire of Ulamog......he might have had a bit of Spike in him but he was a great deckbuilder. This was well before this deck showed up in articles or tournaments. Another card I seem to remember was Primal Command and maybe even a Tooth and Nail.
With the Patron + Meloku package, you are able to do things like loop land drops with things like Glimmerpost or Kabira Crossroads, reuse Bojuka Bog, create flying blockers, and other things I'm sure.
I'm not sure if it offers a better matchup against the current bad ones or if it's just a pure trash idea but I didn't see it mentioned here and I remember it was absurd to sit across from.
What do people think about Vault of the Archangel as a one-of? I can think of a few matchups where I'd rather have lifelink + dt on my titan than double strike. I'm not sure if I would run it in addition to Sunhome or in the board. I think I prefer it to Kessig as the lifegain makes a racing situation doomed for the opponent and the deathtouch makes blocking even more futile than it normally is against Primeval. Meanwhile the trample on Kessig is typically not very relevant, the exception being Inkmoth shenanigans. But I've had no luck actually poisoning anyone to death with that backup plan, all it usually does is just make them play around it which slows them down and gives me time to make another Titan or Hive Mind to win with. I don't like going all-in with Kessig on my Nexus just to get Pathed and discover I've already drawn both my basic Forests.
I definitely can't speak highly enough of Crucible of Worlds in this deck. The ability to replay Tolaria West or Ghost Quarter from the yard (and then bounce TW to hand to re-transmute) is invaluable. Grinding Tron's Urza lands to death is pretty fun, and the ability to regularly tutor for Pacts is very strong. I have been toying with bringing in a few Raven's Crimes vs. some decks, Storm and Twin perhaps. In combination with Crucible, the bounceland + Crime interaction lets us play a grindier game if our first big push falls flat.
Is anyone else considering Obstinate Baloths vs. Liliana? With Pact to search for it, it seems pretty good to have. I'm just concerned that Deathrite Shaman chumps it for a turn and then Liliana nukes it. :\ Maybe I should be less tricky and just run Abrupt Decay or Beast Within.
I am also looking for a good Pactable answer to Robots. Are there any undercosted green dudes that can do a mass-artifact nuke? Or should I just run Stony Silence or some such?
I have already found fun silver-bullets vs. Turbo Infect and Pod: Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Gaddock Teeg respectively. Turbo Infect often runs little to no removal and relies on evasion and hexproof tricks, so blocking or killing their Elf is hard. Melira just strips off the Infect and makes them race you with damage, which they often can't do with Titan arriving soon.
Teeg stops Pod and Chord, as well as Splinter Twin out of Twinpod. I feel each of these decks are capable of killing faster than we are so we can't afford to just try to beat them to the punch. Especially not any Twin deck which can just tapout our Titans before combat. Another option is just Seal of Primordium / Nature's Claim / Krosan Grip, which can hit Pod or Twin, but can't be Pacted for. This might be better because some Pod decks are now running instant removal maindeck, like Abrupt, which can knock out hatebears like Teeg.
I have heard of people running Seal vs. Blood Moon and I'm wondering why not Nature's Claim. Is it safer to run out Seal because it dodges Duress type effects once it's on board? It seems to me they could still bounce or blow up the Seal to protect the Blood Moon. Is that just less likely than hand disruption?
Vs. Twin I have much less certainty what to do. I mostly just try to respond with Slaughter Pact to stop their combo but often they have Dispel. I need more help vs. this matchup, because the things that are good against Twin are typically not good against Kiki-Jiki.
I have also been toying with a few green options for the board vs. Through the Breach / Tin Fists / any other "make a ridiculous monster early" type decks. Assuming we don't die to the first hit, I like Progenitor Mimic as it's a pactable clone that can take over the game if it's not stopped. (It can also double as Titan #2 on board if you're not afraid of removal.) I don't know if this will work though, because I don't know how much we actually want a Griselbrand and I don't think cloning Emrakul will matter much if we get Annihilated, unless they are on 15 life or less.
Finally, I have two more crazy notions: what do people feel about Alchemist's Refuge as a way to put control off its game? With one of these out we can make a Titan or Hive Mind whenever the coast is clear. It's not as certain as Cavern of Souls vs. counters but I still thought it might be worth considering.
Second crazy notion: Karn Liberated. If we run Stirrings we can dig for him and a halfway decent Summer Bloom hand can play him on turn two. If we run Spirit Guide our absolute god hand can land him turn one. I have a hard time picturing losing a game that makes Karn and exiles a land on turn one or two. So the question is: what decks is Karn better or worst against? If we board him, who do we bring him in against?
Vault is unnecessary when you have Kabira Crossroads. The (unconfirmed) M15 card, Radiant Fountain, will replace Crossroads provided it really gains 2 life upon ETB and not 1.
Inkmoth + Kessig is old. Nobody plays it any more. So you're right in taking it out.
Crucible is meh, you only have 1 Ghost Quarter so it's very unlikely that you can get a lock going quickly enough. Raven's Crime is no good, this deck's main colors are blue and green.
DRS is banned and against Liliana, you can tutor Khalni Garden to protect Titan.
No, there is no (green) creature that wipes artifacts. Play Creeping Corrosion or Fracturing Gust if you need that effect. More general answers would be Pyroclasm, Firespout and Seal of Primordium.
Neither Melira nor Teeg are going to do anything against Infect and Pod. Pact isn't free; you have to pay for it during your next upkeep. Infect can kill you on turn 3 and Pod can get its namesake card down on turn 2 (T1 mana dork, T2 Pod), way before you get 4 mana worth of lands on the board. Against Pod just play your Seals; they have Spellskite too, which is annoying when it threatens to steal your Stronghold/Sunhome boosts.
You play Seal against Blood Moon because you don't have to hold up mana constantly for it. Plus, if your opponent keeps you off your green source (by tapping it with an EOT Pestermite for example), he can play Blood Moon without fear of it getting Claimed. Bounce is the least of your worries; the only bounce in Blood Moon decks are Cryptic Command, which costs 4, and Echoing Truth, which only Storm plays, and only as a 1- or 2-of.
Against Twin, just board in Slaughter Pact, Seals, and pray. It isn't a good matchup.
Griselbrand/Emrakul decks aren't very common now because they can easily be stopped by Twin (tap the fatty before combat, it dies at EOT). Progenitor Mimic doesn't help because Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach dictate that the cheated-in creature dies at EOT. A hit from Emrakul isn't going to leave you with enough lands to cast Mimic, regardless.
You don't have a lot of cards against Griselbrand/Emrakul. Just board in Bojuka Bog (to stop Goryo's Vengeance), Pithing Needle (naming Griselbrand), and Thragtusk (it puts you out of range of 3 Griselbrand attacks, and leaves a body behind if Emrakul gets a hit in). Those decks should have a harder time killing us because we don't take any damage from our lands - a single Emrakul hit is devastating, but they need to do it again, or hardcast a Simian Spirit Guide to finish the job.
Alchemist's Refuge costs too much mana to be worth considering. Think about it, if you want to flash in a Titan, you need 6 mana, plus a Refuge, plus UG to activate the Refuge. That's 9 mana worth of lands in total. It's much easier to just use Cavern of Souls.
Karn is a bad idea. It takes a very good hand to land a T2 Karn. You need Karn, Amulet, Summer Bloom, a land that ETBs untapped and a bounceland. And because Karn costs 7, you have a lot less leeway than if you were trying to cast a 6-mana wincon - the first land MUST ETB untapped, and you can't have Stirrings instead of Amulet. If you're looking for a colorless wincon, play Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine. I used to favor a WRG aggro build myself.
Vault is unnecessary when you have Kabira Crossroads. The (unconfirmed) M15 card, Radiant Fountain, will replace Crossroads provided it really gains 2 life upon ETB and not 1.
Yeah, I've heard about that. Definitely an upgrade for this deck. So you don't think more than 4-6 lifegain is needed in a game?
Crucible is meh, you only have 1 Ghost Quarter so it's very unlikely that you can get a lock going quickly enough. Raven's Crime is no good, this deck's main colors are blue and green.
Hm. Did you consider the Tolaria West rebuy functionality? Or how Crucible softens up Liliana's discard power? And how is Raven's Crime "no good" in a deck full of land tutors and rainbow lands? I'm not saying to cast it on turn one, just that it gives us something to do with lands we bounce and plays well with Crucible.
DRS is banned and against Liliana, you can tutor Khalni Garden to protect Titan.
Right, forgot about Deathrite banning, silly me! I'm aware of Khalni for edict protection, I already run it. I was thinking more about beating up on Liliana's discard angle by having the option (at least on turn four) of slamming Baloth when they point her at us.
No, there is no (green) creature that wipes artifacts. Play Creeping Corrosion or Fracturing Gust if you need that effect. More general answers would be Pyroclasm, Firespout and Seal of Primordium.
I worry that Gust, fun as it is, will come too late to save us if Robots gets a fast start. So I will probably run Corrosion. I was hoping more for an answer that doesn't hit our own Amulet but I guess that's asking too much. Other options have crossed my mind. Ratchet Bomb / Engineered Explosives on two? Stony Silence seems pretty nasty too, plus it can hit Pod...
Neither Melira nor Teeg are going to do anything against Infect and Pod. Pact isn't free; you have to pay for it during your next upkeep. Infect can kill you on turn 3 and Pod can get its namesake card down on turn 2 (T1 mana dork, T2 Pod), way before you get 4 mana worth of lands on the board. Against Pod just play your Seals; they have Spellskite too, which is annoying when it threatens to steal your Stronghold/Sunhome boosts.
Good points, and I'll remember to keep an eye out for 'Skite. So what is your plan vs. Turbo Infect? Pray you don't run into it? Slaughter Pact probably can't save us either, since we would likely have to cast it before having three mana, so I don't know what we can do against that deck except pray they get bad hands. This is why I was toying with the notion of Abrupt Decay in the board.
You play Seal against Blood Moon because you don't have to hold up mana constantly for it. Plus, if your opponent keeps you off your green source (by tapping it with an EOT Pestermite for example), he can play Blood Moon without fear of it getting Claimed. Bounce is the least of your worries; the only bounce in Blood Moon decks are Cryptic Command, which costs 4, and Echoing Truth, which only Storm plays, and only as a 1- or 2-of.
Good to know, thanks!
Griselbrand/Emrakul decks aren't very common now because they can easily be stopped by Twin (tap the fatty before combat, it dies at EOT).
Not always - I have heard of one deck ("Tin Fists") running Fist of Suns to allow them to cast Emrakul on t4 or t5. Since Emrakul is being cast for real and not just Goryo'd in, Pestermiting him would only stave off annihilation for one turn. Twin would still be able to stop Goryo / Through the Breach though.
Progenitor Mimic doesn't help because Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach dictate that the cheated-in creature dies at EOT. A hit from Emrakul isn't going to leave you with enough lands to cast Mimic, regardless.
Yeah, I guess I was still toying around with the Alchemist's Refuge idea, but that is a ton of mana for a very corner case situation. Mostly I just really want Progenitor Mimic to be good, but it's probably never really gonna get there.
You don't have a lot of cards against Griselbrand/Emrakul. Just board in Bojuka Bog (to stop Goryo's Vengeance), Pithing Needle (naming Griselbrand), and Thragtusk (it puts you out of range of 3 Griselbrand attacks, and leaves a body behind if Emrakul gets a hit in). Those decks should have a harder time killing us because we don't take any damage from our lands - a single Emrakul hit is devastating, but they need to do it again, or hardcast a Simian Spirit Guide to finish the job.
Wouldn't Crypt be better? They can just go t1 land go, t2 land, Spirit Guide, Looting, Goryo. We can't Bog in-between those, but we can Crypt or Grafdigger's. (Crypt is tutorable with Tolaria West, but Grafdigger's doubles up against Pod, so I'm sort of torn. I definitely run one Bog as well though.)
Alchemist's Refuge costs too much mana to be worth considering. Think about it, if you want to flash in a Titan, you need 6 mana, plus a Refuge, plus UG to activate the Refuge. That's 9 mana worth of lands in total. It's much easier to just use Cavern of Souls.
Well, I was mainly thinking about it as a lategame option for slower matches that have the tools to resist our initial rush. Ie., they Path our first Titan and then are constantly holding open counter mana for the next one, it could be nice to be able to outplay that. It's probably not a great idea but I just hate running pure combo against control and having to just run my stuff out there to get countered. Thank god the pay-or-die trigger isn't generated for countered Pacts, or else control would be a miserable matchup. But Aven Mindcensor is just disgusting to try to play around. :\
Karn is a bad idea. It takes a very good hand to land a T2 Karn. You need Karn, Amulet, Summer Bloom, a land that ETBs untapped and a bounceland. And because Karn costs 7, you have a lot less leeway than if you were trying to cast a 6-mana wincon - the first land MUST ETB untapped, and you can't have Stirrings instead of Amulet. If you're looking for a colorless wincon, play Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine. I used to favor a WRG aggro build myself.
Hm, Wurmcoil I was already boarding but hadn't really considered Bskull. Is it just because it's a good mana sink once a Titan has ramped us up? I'm not really looking for a "colorless" win-con strictly, but for one that attacks from a different angle the opponent isn't expecting. They will obviously be expecting Titan and Hive Mind, so I was looking for a third option or angle of attack. In particular I want an answer to Slaughter Games out of Jund, and I hate Leyline of Sanctity for being so hit or miss. I would rather be able to board in a win con they don't expect than play the game of "can this Leyline-less hand go off before they strip out all my Titans, or do I need to mulligan?" I've been thinking of Rampaging Baloths as one option, it's nowhere near as good as Primeval but 10 power in two bodies on turn three is still a respectable threat, even if it's usually just a 6 mana "make a 4/4 and target opponent discards a kill spell". I know it's lame compared to Titan but I really do not want to run the Leylines. I always draw them after I get wrecked or else they expect them and bring in something that can remove them. Leyline doesn't feel like THE answer to such effects, it feels like a placeholder until I find a real answer. Another option might be Thrun, he's very hard to get rid of but also a bit shrimpy to be a game winner. I guess if pumped by pump-lands he could do some damage but I'm not thrilled with the notion.
Crossroads lifegain > Vault lifegain because it's immediate.
You don't need Crucible to reuse Tolaria West. In most cases you will transmute for a Summoner's Pact. If you need another Tolaria West, Pact for Titan, cast it, and search up another one.
I think Pithing Needle is a better answer to Liliana.
Raven's Crime in this deck is really slow because we don't have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Life from the Loam. Tendo Ice Bridge is only good for black mana once. Crucible is no substitute for Loam (Loam puts lands in hand). The thing about Raven's Crime is that it's usually used to lock the opponent out of the game once you've established a solid board position, but in this deck it's unnecessary because of the land toolbox, which provides adequate protection for Titan.
Against Infect, bring in Pyroclasm, Slaughter Pact and Chalice of the Void. Slaughter Pact is ok, if they get greedy and throw all their boosts on one guy without leaving up Vines of Vastwood/Apostle's Blessing, Pact is a 3/4-for-1. If they play Ichorclaw Myr or Necropede, then Seal is fine too. Take out Crossroads for Ghost Quarter, Crossroads does nothing while GQ can at least hit Inkmoth.
Now that you mention it, I'm convinced that Crypt is better. If you have to choose between Crypt and Cage, play Crypt. There's enough Pod hate in the other slots.
In the current meta, Slaughter Games is quite uncommon in Jund. It's not worth putting alt wincons in your SB for. Just hope that you don't see it or if you do, hope that you manage to resolve a Titan first.
All in all, don't forget that you only have 15 sideboard slots. The sideboard in this deck is very tight - despite all the cool cards that are great to have in certain matchups, when you sit down and try to construct a SB you'll quickly find that there's no room for all of them.
I just recently built this deck and have been learning to play it, gotta say learning to sequence the lands and learning what kinds of hands to keep have been a challenge, but a fun one and its one i hope to stick to and get better with. So i was wondering what are your thought on Qasali Pridemage over Seal of Primordium as a sideboard card? i feel like it may be less of a dead card and something that could be tutored for if needed in a bind, tho i do see that the hard part may be getting a white source for it on the field, but i suppose thats what the bridge, mine, crossroads are for.
I just recently built this deck and have been learning to play it, gotta say learning to sequence the lands and learning what kinds of hands to keep have been a challenge, but a fun one and its one i hope to stick to and get better with. So i was wondering what are your thought on Qasali Pridemage over Seal of Primordium as a sideboard card? i feel like it may be less of a dead card and something that could be tutored for if needed in a bind, tho i do see that the hard part may be getting a white source for it on the field, but i suppose thats what the bridge, mine, crossroads are for.
Doesn't seem too bad, the white mana problem aside. Just remember that some Pod decks run Linvala. If you're against Pod, you will need to make Pridemage and leave 1 open, and use it in response to or before any pod activation for a four-drop. If you let the pod resolve, Linvala will ETB and lock you out. And of course if you just run PM out there to keep pod in their hand, they'll just Abrupt him and drop the Pod afterwards. (Of course, they can do that to Seal as well.)
A question for others here: Who here runs the Simian Spirit Guides and who doesn't? I've been testing both ways and am a bit torn. Explosive hands are a bit more frequent with it, but you are more prone to blowouts from disruption. Without it, you miss out on winning some games where the opponent had nothing early to stop you, but gain some reliability over longer games (fewer dead topdecks). I'm running three at the moment because it seems to result in a higher amount of hands I can look at and keep because of potential Titan on t3 or sooner. (There was also the extremely rare turn one titan hand, which I actually pulled off once in about 40 test hands... since it's probably one-in-a-thousand, I'm a bit bummed it didn't happen at an event. :P)
Alright party peoples. I'm going back to doing unfair things in modern aka dropping turn 2 titans. Where are we at with a base 75 decklist and do we have any regulars playing this deck on a weekly basis anymore?
Just an FYI about myself, I used to play AoV quite a few months back and would go 3-1 / 4-0 on a weekly basis with the deck.
Hi guys!
I've been wanting to try this deck out since I love land based decks (wich this one sort of is). But the thing is that I really don't like the card Hive Mind. Can you perhaps play a mono-G/Gr version of the deck with the same kind of interresting combo?
You can play Batterskull as your plan B. If you do that, you'd want to max Ancient Stirrings. Batterskull plays well with the pump lands (Stronghold, Sunhome, Wolf Run).
As far as colors go, you have to play green (obvious), red, and white (Slayers' Stronghold, vital because of haste). If you're not playing Hive Mind, you can forgo blue (-Serum Visions, Hive Mind, blue Pact) and black (-black Pact).
Hi guys!
I've been wanting to try this deck out since I love land based decks (wich this one sort of is). But the thing is that I really don't like the card Hive Mind. Can you perhaps play a mono-G/Gr version of the deck with the same kind of interresting combo?
/Louie
Really think you need to come up with a plan B then. If you're all-in on Titan and they get hit with Extraction or some such, you're up sh*t creek. If not Hive Mind then something else that takes good advantage of the deck's synergies. I like izzetmage's suggestion of Bskull but I'm just not sure if he gets there without pumpland assistance and if you've lost your Titans you can't fetch them. I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really think Hive Mind is ideal as a backup plan since we're already running at least 4 Pacts.
Edit: also, I would never cut blue even if I cut Hive Mind. Tolaria West is just too good, it gives you seven-eight effective tutors for Titan.
Well, the idea behind Batterskull is that your Ancient Stirrings now functions as "dig for a threat" if you need it to.
Without HM, Pacts take on less importance. You lose the ability to Titan -> fetch Tolaria West -> transmute for Pact -> tutor Titan, but on the other hand Batterskull provides another form of resilience by itself. If the Germ dies, you stick Batterskull on a random creature - Azusa, Plant tokens (in my Naya version I had at least two Khalni Garden), Sakura-Tribe Scout (not played in 5C, but I did play it in Naya) - and it suddenly becomes a threat.
Well, the idea behind Batterskull is that your Ancient Stirrings now functions as "dig for a threat" if you need it to.
Without HM, Pacts take on less importance. You lose the ability to Titan -> fetch Tolaria West -> transmute for Pact -> tutor Titan, but on the other hand Batterskull provides another form of resilience by itself. If the Germ dies, you stick Batterskull on a random creature - Azusa, Plant tokens (in my Naya version I had at least two Khalni Garden), Sakura-Tribe Scout (not played in 5C, but I did play it in Naya) - and it suddenly becomes a threat.
Yeah but that just seems so slow to me in a format where it seems every other deck is either trying to go infinite on life/damage (Melira Pod) or make infinite 1/4's (Twin). Trying to race with a 4/4, even if it's an awesome 4/4, just seems like it's giving them too much time to find their pieces and go off. Do you bring in additional disruption to support the Batterskull?
This is my main modern deck (along with Scapeshift).
At the moment, I've found that the single most irritating matchup to play against is Storm. Any deck that can drop a Blood Moon on turn 2 is...well, it kills you. Storm is also more consistent (in my experience), so it can be difficult to race them.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
Pros of Naya:
- Ancient Stirrings now digs for threats
- Better mana (more basic Forests, easier to play)
- More lifegain against fair decks
Cons of Naya:
- can't beat infinite life (or infinite anything)
- totally dependent on creatures
- Titan can't tutor more Titans. Pumplands are the only things you'll get.
If you ask me whether you should play Naya or 5C I'd still say 5C.
Yeah, I want to ask the same question as Kasreyn: what are the merits of giving up the blue an going with Batterskull? I have hard time imagining matchups where givinp up the abilities to a) combo kill from a totally different angle, b) making yourself weaker against Path and c) choosing not to interact with your opponent could be a good thing. Two card combo kill costing you in reality 2 or 3 slots because Pacts are awesome and synergestic without it looks better Batterskull. Can you please talk more about the merits of Naya version?
Regarding Affinity matchup, i'm fine siding in four Seals and 3 red sweepers against them. I don't feel like i need much dedicated Affinity hate in my board, pyroclasm are good enough even if they don't have the word "artifact" printed on them. I also play 1 EE and a Ghost Quarter main, making game 1 much more favourable. You just have to accept that Affinity is an extremely explosive deck and you will lose sometimes because of it, but hey, it's not like we don't kill people on turn 2 or 3 leaving them frustrated.
I am less confused about what I would want to board in, and more confused by what I can take out. Titans, Summoners' Pacts, Blooms, and Amulets seem like they shouldn't be touched. That doesn't leave a lot of spells to fiddle with. What is your SB plan vs. Affinity, ie., what seven do you pull to bring those seven in?
Would putting some Swan Songs into the sideboard protect against Storm? Leyline doesn't work particularly well in that matchup, I've found, but I expect that the Leylines are more for targeted discard.
A turn 2 blood moon means that storm doesn't even need to combo off if you don't have a seal. They just go for Electromancer beats.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
So this is the list im running, it has alot more answers mainboard and i do not run hivemind...ive won games against RDW by simply getting an Elderscale Wurm out turn 2. Also i mainboard 2x Spellskite but finally the most important addition is 2x Glittering Wish
heres my list - New to formatting sorry
4 Amulet of Vigor
2 Spellskite
1 Acidic Slime
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Elderscale Wurm
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Ancient Stirrings
2 Glittering Wish
4 Summer Bloom
1 Boros Garrison
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Mosswort Bridge
4 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Simic Growth Chamber
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Tolaria West
2 Vesuva
Sideboard -
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Fiery Justice
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Slaughter Games
1 Fiery Justice
2 Engineered Explosives
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With the Patron + Meloku package, you are able to do things like loop land drops with things like Glimmerpost or Kabira Crossroads, reuse Bojuka Bog, create flying blockers, and other things I'm sure.
I'm not sure if it offers a better matchup against the current bad ones or if it's just a pure trash idea but I didn't see it mentioned here and I remember it was absurd to sit across from.
What do people think about Vault of the Archangel as a one-of? I can think of a few matchups where I'd rather have lifelink + dt on my titan than double strike. I'm not sure if I would run it in addition to Sunhome or in the board. I think I prefer it to Kessig as the lifegain makes a racing situation doomed for the opponent and the deathtouch makes blocking even more futile than it normally is against Primeval. Meanwhile the trample on Kessig is typically not very relevant, the exception being Inkmoth shenanigans. But I've had no luck actually poisoning anyone to death with that backup plan, all it usually does is just make them play around it which slows them down and gives me time to make another Titan or Hive Mind to win with. I don't like going all-in with Kessig on my Nexus just to get Pathed and discover I've already drawn both my basic Forests.
I definitely can't speak highly enough of Crucible of Worlds in this deck. The ability to replay Tolaria West or Ghost Quarter from the yard (and then bounce TW to hand to re-transmute) is invaluable. Grinding Tron's Urza lands to death is pretty fun, and the ability to regularly tutor for Pacts is very strong. I have been toying with bringing in a few Raven's Crimes vs. some decks, Storm and Twin perhaps. In combination with Crucible, the bounceland + Crime interaction lets us play a grindier game if our first big push falls flat.
Is anyone else considering Obstinate Baloths vs. Liliana? With Pact to search for it, it seems pretty good to have. I'm just concerned that Deathrite Shaman chumps it for a turn and then Liliana nukes it. :\ Maybe I should be less tricky and just run Abrupt Decay or Beast Within.
I am also looking for a good Pactable answer to Robots. Are there any undercosted green dudes that can do a mass-artifact nuke? Or should I just run Stony Silence or some such?
I have already found fun silver-bullets vs. Turbo Infect and Pod: Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Gaddock Teeg respectively. Turbo Infect often runs little to no removal and relies on evasion and hexproof tricks, so blocking or killing their Elf is hard. Melira just strips off the Infect and makes them race you with damage, which they often can't do with Titan arriving soon.
Teeg stops Pod and Chord, as well as Splinter Twin out of Twinpod. I feel each of these decks are capable of killing faster than we are so we can't afford to just try to beat them to the punch. Especially not any Twin deck which can just tapout our Titans before combat. Another option is just Seal of Primordium / Nature's Claim / Krosan Grip, which can hit Pod or Twin, but can't be Pacted for. This might be better because some Pod decks are now running instant removal maindeck, like Abrupt, which can knock out hatebears like Teeg.
I have heard of people running Seal vs. Blood Moon and I'm wondering why not Nature's Claim. Is it safer to run out Seal because it dodges Duress type effects once it's on board? It seems to me they could still bounce or blow up the Seal to protect the Blood Moon. Is that just less likely than hand disruption?
Vs. Twin I have much less certainty what to do. I mostly just try to respond with Slaughter Pact to stop their combo but often they have Dispel. I need more help vs. this matchup, because the things that are good against Twin are typically not good against Kiki-Jiki.
I have also been toying with a few green options for the board vs. Through the Breach / Tin Fists / any other "make a ridiculous monster early" type decks. Assuming we don't die to the first hit, I like Progenitor Mimic as it's a pactable clone that can take over the game if it's not stopped. (It can also double as Titan #2 on board if you're not afraid of removal.) I don't know if this will work though, because I don't know how much we actually want a Griselbrand and I don't think cloning Emrakul will matter much if we get Annihilated, unless they are on 15 life or less.
Finally, I have two more crazy notions: what do people feel about Alchemist's Refuge as a way to put control off its game? With one of these out we can make a Titan or Hive Mind whenever the coast is clear. It's not as certain as Cavern of Souls vs. counters but I still thought it might be worth considering.
Second crazy notion: Karn Liberated. If we run Stirrings we can dig for him and a halfway decent Summer Bloom hand can play him on turn two. If we run Spirit Guide our absolute god hand can land him turn one. I have a hard time picturing losing a game that makes Karn and exiles a land on turn one or two. So the question is: what decks is Karn better or worst against? If we board him, who do we bring him in against?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Inkmoth + Kessig is old. Nobody plays it any more. So you're right in taking it out.
Crucible is meh, you only have 1 Ghost Quarter so it's very unlikely that you can get a lock going quickly enough. Raven's Crime is no good, this deck's main colors are blue and green.
DRS is banned and against Liliana, you can tutor Khalni Garden to protect Titan.
No, there is no (green) creature that wipes artifacts. Play Creeping Corrosion or Fracturing Gust if you need that effect. More general answers would be Pyroclasm, Firespout and Seal of Primordium.
Neither Melira nor Teeg are going to do anything against Infect and Pod. Pact isn't free; you have to pay for it during your next upkeep. Infect can kill you on turn 3 and Pod can get its namesake card down on turn 2 (T1 mana dork, T2 Pod), way before you get 4 mana worth of lands on the board. Against Pod just play your Seals; they have Spellskite too, which is annoying when it threatens to steal your Stronghold/Sunhome boosts.
You play Seal against Blood Moon because you don't have to hold up mana constantly for it. Plus, if your opponent keeps you off your green source (by tapping it with an EOT Pestermite for example), he can play Blood Moon without fear of it getting Claimed. Bounce is the least of your worries; the only bounce in Blood Moon decks are Cryptic Command, which costs 4, and Echoing Truth, which only Storm plays, and only as a 1- or 2-of.
Against Twin, just board in Slaughter Pact, Seals, and pray. It isn't a good matchup.
Griselbrand/Emrakul decks aren't very common now because they can easily be stopped by Twin (tap the fatty before combat, it dies at EOT). Progenitor Mimic doesn't help because Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach dictate that the cheated-in creature dies at EOT. A hit from Emrakul isn't going to leave you with enough lands to cast Mimic, regardless.
You don't have a lot of cards against Griselbrand/Emrakul. Just board in Bojuka Bog (to stop Goryo's Vengeance), Pithing Needle (naming Griselbrand), and Thragtusk (it puts you out of range of 3 Griselbrand attacks, and leaves a body behind if Emrakul gets a hit in). Those decks should have a harder time killing us because we don't take any damage from our lands - a single Emrakul hit is devastating, but they need to do it again, or hardcast a Simian Spirit Guide to finish the job.
Alchemist's Refuge costs too much mana to be worth considering. Think about it, if you want to flash in a Titan, you need 6 mana, plus a Refuge, plus UG to activate the Refuge. That's 9 mana worth of lands in total. It's much easier to just use Cavern of Souls.
Karn is a bad idea. It takes a very good hand to land a T2 Karn. You need Karn, Amulet, Summer Bloom, a land that ETBs untapped and a bounceland. And because Karn costs 7, you have a lot less leeway than if you were trying to cast a 6-mana wincon - the first land MUST ETB untapped, and you can't have Stirrings instead of Amulet. If you're looking for a colorless wincon, play Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine. I used to favor a WRG aggro build myself.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yeah, I've heard about that. Definitely an upgrade for this deck. So you don't think more than 4-6 lifegain is needed in a game?
Hm. Did you consider the Tolaria West rebuy functionality? Or how Crucible softens up Liliana's discard power? And how is Raven's Crime "no good" in a deck full of land tutors and rainbow lands? I'm not saying to cast it on turn one, just that it gives us something to do with lands we bounce and plays well with Crucible.
Right, forgot about Deathrite banning, silly me! I'm aware of Khalni for edict protection, I already run it. I was thinking more about beating up on Liliana's discard angle by having the option (at least on turn four) of slamming Baloth when they point her at us.
I worry that Gust, fun as it is, will come too late to save us if Robots gets a fast start. So I will probably run Corrosion. I was hoping more for an answer that doesn't hit our own Amulet but I guess that's asking too much. Other options have crossed my mind. Ratchet Bomb / Engineered Explosives on two? Stony Silence seems pretty nasty too, plus it can hit Pod...
Good points, and I'll remember to keep an eye out for 'Skite. So what is your plan vs. Turbo Infect? Pray you don't run into it? Slaughter Pact probably can't save us either, since we would likely have to cast it before having three mana, so I don't know what we can do against that deck except pray they get bad hands. This is why I was toying with the notion of Abrupt Decay in the board.
Good to know, thanks!
Not always - I have heard of one deck ("Tin Fists") running Fist of Suns to allow them to cast Emrakul on t4 or t5. Since Emrakul is being cast for real and not just Goryo'd in, Pestermiting him would only stave off annihilation for one turn. Twin would still be able to stop Goryo / Through the Breach though.
Yeah, I guess I was still toying around with the Alchemist's Refuge idea, but that is a ton of mana for a very corner case situation. Mostly I just really want Progenitor Mimic to be good, but it's probably never really gonna get there.
Wouldn't Crypt be better? They can just go t1 land go, t2 land, Spirit Guide, Looting, Goryo. We can't Bog in-between those, but we can Crypt or Grafdigger's. (Crypt is tutorable with Tolaria West, but Grafdigger's doubles up against Pod, so I'm sort of torn. I definitely run one Bog as well though.)
Well, I was mainly thinking about it as a lategame option for slower matches that have the tools to resist our initial rush. Ie., they Path our first Titan and then are constantly holding open counter mana for the next one, it could be nice to be able to outplay that. It's probably not a great idea but I just hate running pure combo against control and having to just run my stuff out there to get countered. Thank god the pay-or-die trigger isn't generated for countered Pacts, or else control would be a miserable matchup. But Aven Mindcensor is just disgusting to try to play around. :\
Hm, Wurmcoil I was already boarding but hadn't really considered Bskull. Is it just because it's a good mana sink once a Titan has ramped us up? I'm not really looking for a "colorless" win-con strictly, but for one that attacks from a different angle the opponent isn't expecting. They will obviously be expecting Titan and Hive Mind, so I was looking for a third option or angle of attack. In particular I want an answer to Slaughter Games out of Jund, and I hate Leyline of Sanctity for being so hit or miss. I would rather be able to board in a win con they don't expect than play the game of "can this Leyline-less hand go off before they strip out all my Titans, or do I need to mulligan?" I've been thinking of Rampaging Baloths as one option, it's nowhere near as good as Primeval but 10 power in two bodies on turn three is still a respectable threat, even if it's usually just a 6 mana "make a 4/4 and target opponent discards a kill spell". I know it's lame compared to Titan but I really do not want to run the Leylines. I always draw them after I get wrecked or else they expect them and bring in something that can remove them. Leyline doesn't feel like THE answer to such effects, it feels like a placeholder until I find a real answer. Another option might be Thrun, he's very hard to get rid of but also a bit shrimpy to be a game winner. I guess if pumped by pump-lands he could do some damage but I'm not thrilled with the notion.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
You don't need Crucible to reuse Tolaria West. In most cases you will transmute for a Summoner's Pact. If you need another Tolaria West, Pact for Titan, cast it, and search up another one.
I think Pithing Needle is a better answer to Liliana.
Raven's Crime in this deck is really slow because we don't have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Life from the Loam. Tendo Ice Bridge is only good for black mana once. Crucible is no substitute for Loam (Loam puts lands in hand). The thing about Raven's Crime is that it's usually used to lock the opponent out of the game once you've established a solid board position, but in this deck it's unnecessary because of the land toolbox, which provides adequate protection for Titan.
Against Infect, bring in Pyroclasm, Slaughter Pact and Chalice of the Void. Slaughter Pact is ok, if they get greedy and throw all their boosts on one guy without leaving up Vines of Vastwood/Apostle's Blessing, Pact is a 3/4-for-1. If they play Ichorclaw Myr or Necropede, then Seal is fine too. Take out Crossroads for Ghost Quarter, Crossroads does nothing while GQ can at least hit Inkmoth.
Now that you mention it, I'm convinced that Crypt is better. If you have to choose between Crypt and Cage, play Crypt. There's enough Pod hate in the other slots.
In the current meta, Slaughter Games is quite uncommon in Jund. It's not worth putting alt wincons in your SB for. Just hope that you don't see it or if you do, hope that you manage to resolve a Titan first.
All in all, don't forget that you only have 15 sideboard slots. The sideboard in this deck is very tight - despite all the cool cards that are great to have in certain matchups, when you sit down and try to construct a SB you'll quickly find that there's no room for all of them.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Doesn't seem too bad, the white mana problem aside. Just remember that some Pod decks run Linvala. If you're against Pod, you will need to make Pridemage and leave 1 open, and use it in response to or before any pod activation for a four-drop. If you let the pod resolve, Linvala will ETB and lock you out. And of course if you just run PM out there to keep pod in their hand, they'll just Abrupt him and drop the Pod afterwards. (Of course, they can do that to Seal as well.)
A question for others here: Who here runs the Simian Spirit Guides and who doesn't? I've been testing both ways and am a bit torn. Explosive hands are a bit more frequent with it, but you are more prone to blowouts from disruption. Without it, you miss out on winning some games where the opponent had nothing early to stop you, but gain some reliability over longer games (fewer dead topdecks). I'm running three at the moment because it seems to result in a higher amount of hands I can look at and keep because of potential Titan on t3 or sooner. (There was also the extremely rare turn one titan hand, which I actually pulled off once in about 40 test hands... since it's probably one-in-a-thousand, I'm a bit bummed it didn't happen at an event. :P)
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Just an FYI about myself, I used to play AoV quite a few months back and would go 3-1 / 4-0 on a weekly basis with the deck.
I've been wanting to try this deck out since I love land based decks (wich this one sort of is). But the thing is that I really don't like the card Hive Mind. Can you perhaps play a mono-G/Gr version of the deck with the same kind of interresting combo?
/Louie
As far as colors go, you have to play green (obvious), red, and white (Slayers' Stronghold, vital because of haste). If you're not playing Hive Mind, you can forgo blue (-Serum Visions, Hive Mind, blue Pact) and black (-black Pact).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Really think you need to come up with a plan B then. If you're all-in on Titan and they get hit with Extraction or some such, you're up sh*t creek. If not Hive Mind then something else that takes good advantage of the deck's synergies. I like izzetmage's suggestion of Bskull but I'm just not sure if he gets there without pumpland assistance and if you've lost your Titans you can't fetch them. I honestly don't know what to tell you, I really think Hive Mind is ideal as a backup plan since we're already running at least 4 Pacts.
Edit: also, I would never cut blue even if I cut Hive Mind. Tolaria West is just too good, it gives you seven-eight effective tutors for Titan.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Without HM, Pacts take on less importance. You lose the ability to Titan -> fetch Tolaria West -> transmute for Pact -> tutor Titan, but on the other hand Batterskull provides another form of resilience by itself. If the Germ dies, you stick Batterskull on a random creature - Azusa, Plant tokens (in my Naya version I had at least two Khalni Garden), Sakura-Tribe Scout (not played in 5C, but I did play it in Naya) - and it suddenly becomes a threat.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yeah. You didn't need the second pact; your copy of Dispel could have countered his.
Yeah but that just seems so slow to me in a format where it seems every other deck is either trying to go infinite on life/damage (Melira Pod) or make infinite 1/4's (Twin). Trying to race with a 4/4, even if it's an awesome 4/4, just seems like it's giving them too much time to find their pieces and go off. Do you bring in additional disruption to support the Batterskull?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
At the moment, I've found that the single most irritating matchup to play against is Storm. Any deck that can drop a Blood Moon on turn 2 is...well, it kills you. Storm is also more consistent (in my experience), so it can be difficult to race them.
- Ancient Stirrings now digs for threats
- Better mana (more basic Forests, easier to play)
- More lifegain against fair decks
Cons of Naya:
- can't beat infinite life (or infinite anything)
- totally dependent on creatures
- Titan can't tutor more Titans. Pumplands are the only things you'll get.
If you ask me whether you should play Naya or 5C I'd still say 5C.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I am less confused about what I would want to board in, and more confused by what I can take out. Titans, Summoners' Pacts, Blooms, and Amulets seem like they shouldn't be touched. That doesn't leave a lot of spells to fiddle with. What is your SB plan vs. Affinity, ie., what seven do you pull to bring those seven in?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
A turn 2 blood moon means that storm doesn't even need to combo off if you don't have a seal. They just go for Electromancer beats.
heres my list - New to formatting sorry
4 Amulet of Vigor
2 Spellskite
1 Acidic Slime
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Elderscale Wurm
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Ancient Stirrings
2 Glittering Wish
4 Summer Bloom
1 Boros Garrison
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Mosswort Bridge
4 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Simic Growth Chamber
2 Slayers' Stronghold
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Tolaria West
2 Vesuva
Sideboard -
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Fiery Justice
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Slaughter Games
1 Fiery Justice
2 Engineered Explosives