Seal of Primordium gets around Pro-Green I believe. For instance you could blow up an Etched Champion with Seal?
Vesuva with Titan trigger - Can you tutor up say Khalni Garden and Vesuva, and have Vesuva copy Garden? Im unsure about this because they enter at the same time. I think since Vesuva is an ETB trigger which you pick the target after both ETB you can do this.
Seal: no. Seal is green so Etched Champion has protection from it.
Vesuva: also no. Vesuva is not an ETB trigger, it's a replacement effect.
Seal has an activated ability which has no color. It's the activated ability which targets and destroys.
For Vesuva the reprint is actually worded quite a lot different from the original. The judge actually told me I could do this, but it didn't seem correct to me. Thanks
This deck hit the top 1 rank here last 02/01/2015.
was just going to post that. the simian spirit guide list as well. so the debate to spirit guide or not to spirit guide continues.
whats taken me more by surprised with that list is it doesn't have leyline of sanctity in the sideboard.
has more than 1 chalice of the void. maybe fighting discard is best served by dropping chalice for 1?
hypothetically a spirit guide list running chalice could be turn 1 chalice for 1 and shut off both 1cc discard, 1cc burn, and path to exile that doesn't apply to that deck though, since its only running 2 chalices, need more than that to have good shot at turn 1 chalice.
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Would you have played Chalice for X=3 in the semi game 2? You know you have another bloom in hand so using one to power out an answer to moon doesn't seem bad, especially as with your current hand you pretty much fold to it, as we witnessed.
The way he messed up that azusa vs bolt sequencing makes me cry Must've been the nerves!
Would you have played Chalice for X=3 in the semi game 2? You know you have another bloom in hand so using one to power out an answer to moon doesn't seem bad, especially as with your current hand you pretty much fold to it, as we witnessed.
The way he messed up that azusa vs bolt sequencing makes me cry Must've been the nerves!
This and Ad Nauseum have been my main decks after my Kiki pod was axed.. So I've been playing this deck much more than previous, with great results.
At first, I thought the deck was a bit inconsistent, but I've found the deck performing better and better the more practice I get. (No surprise, it's a challenging deck to learn) And unless you play against heavy discard, mulliganing isn't that big of a handicap (and something you really must learn with this deck)
The land tutoring and toolbox/ramp aspect works well, and with the Tolaria wests, the deck is very resilient to removal.
You also get some free wins with a turn 1/2 titan. I've gone 4-0 locally the last 2 modern tournaments (doesn't really say much since local metas vary wildly) and I like the deck more and more.
However, it does shuffles more than probably any other magic deck, which can take up a lot of time, combined with some grindy matchups against control, so practice before bringing it to a tournament. Though it feels like a really powerfull well positioned deck, if you take the time to learn it and its tricky interactions.
Oh and I play a similar list as many others, except I replaced the Tendo Ice bridge with a Kessig wolf run. (you can sometimes close out games with Azusa or Simian spirit guide attacking if your titans die) but maybe Khalni Garden will be better if Liliana becomes even more popular.
Also, it might be right to replace simian spirit guides for something like Sleight of hand, but I go back and forth. Consistency vs speed.
Oh, and get a friend to slap you every time you forget a pact trigger! Or a dice on your deck, whatever;)
Edit: This is one of the reasons spirit guides are still here, I had this beautiful hand on the play against burn last night.
(don't mind the proxy titan, they were in my green devotion deck at the time) http://s29.postimg.org/v4meu4n07/2096217654_n.jpg
What are the advantages to running Glimmerposts over Radiant Fountains?
Unless my math is wrong, you dont get an advantage to life gain until after the 4th Post is played (you get 1 for the first, 2 for the second, 3 if you copy one with Vesuva and then 3 again if you bounce one which adds to 9 life in 4 lands against the 8 for 4 fountains/copies). Seems like running 2 colourless lands instead of 1 (and getting to add another utility land) is not worth the work/trade off. Is there something I am missing?
Also, has anyone tried a single Temple of Mystery? I really want another blue source in the deck (I am running 4 Visions/3 SoH) and I find myself mulliganing otherwise acceptable hands because I am short a U source.
What are the advantages to running Glimmerposts over Radiant Fountains?
Unless my math is wrong, you dont get an advantage to life gain until after the 4th Post is played (you get 1 for the first, 2 for the second, 3 if you copy one with Vesuva and then 3 again if you bounce one which adds to 9 life in 4 lands against the 8 for 4 fountains/copies). Seems like running 2 colourless lands instead of 1 (and getting to add another utility land) is not worth the work/trade off. Is there something I am missing?
Also, has anyone tried a single Temple of Mystery? I really want another blue source in the deck (I am running 4 Visions/3 SoH) and I find myself mulliganing otherwise acceptable hands because I am short a U source.
Yes, I prefer 2 fountains because of this. I will sometimes search out just 1 fountain + other land, bounce land, utility etc, so it gives more life than glimmerposts usually. I could see going to 1 fountain as well.
I have also missed another blue source occasionally, even thinking about adding a basic island, to have another land to fetch to path/ghost quarter. I guess I would add that if I decide to go Sleight of hand Instead of Simian spirit guide.
The main advantage of Radiant Fountain over Glimmerpost is that if you choose to run the latter you need to run two, whereas Fountain is okay as a 1-of.
Having said that, let's look at the cases.
Case A: 2 Glimmer + Vesuva
vs
Case B: 2 Fountain + Vesuva
vs
Case C: 1 Fountain + Vesuva
plays out as follows if you're spamming lifegain.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you still have a land drop. Land tutor 1 A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Land tutor 2 A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life C: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life
All subsequent tutorings have the same effect.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you DO NOT have a land drop. Land tutor 1 A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 2 Life
Land tutor 2 A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life C: Play Fountain, 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Seeing as you often do not have a land drop after getting your first titan out the life gain over 2 turns comes down to the following: A:10 life, 6 each turn after B:8 life, 4 each turn after C:6 life, 4 each turn after
Concluding all of this, I would never play 2 Fountain. If your meta is aggressive/racey enough that you want 2 land slots dedicated to lifegain: play 2 Glimmerpost, otherwise: playing the single Radiant + a Khalni is usually enough to stabilize.
If you tutor for 2 glimmerposts, you gain 4, then 3 with vesuva, and 3 each time vesuva enters the battlefield later. Fountains are better if you happen to draw them.
The thing about nut hands with SSG is that usually it doesnt matter if you drop titan turn one or turn two. It improves the best case scenario wich doesnt really need to be improved and sucks every other time. I suggest removing SSGs, drawing a bunch of six-card hands, and evaluating them as if the seventh card was ssg. Then doing the same with Stirrings or Sleight.
The deck doesnt shuffle any more than other decks. It runs no fetches and if you are searching your deck 3-4 times during a single turn, just ask your opponent if you could make a shortcut and shuffle it just one time eot.
Yes you could ask this, but be carefull with it in an official tournament setting. In the deck you often do things like, Tolaria west [s], into pact [s], into titan [s], get lands [s], haste, attack [s], get another tolaria west, get pact [s] (where every [s] is a shuffle). You could ask your opponent if you can shortcut a bit, which they might allow, but they can actually say no as well.
And even in the less extreme searching examples as this, it's normal to search at least once or twice a turn as your titans tend to die.
Also, I don't often get both lifegain lands at the same time, which makes the fountains better and a bit more flexible. It doesn't really matter much though.
I do agree about the turn 1 vs turn 2 titan thing. Though it does open up for more Spell pierce, Spell snare, Remand, Mana leak etc on your Summer Bloom, or gives them a window to cast Thoughseize on the play, and I often board out the spirit guides for games 2/3 as they are obviously strongest game 1. It plays like most combo decks that relies on stealing game 1, and have a longer grindier match in game 2/3. It also obviously depends on the meta.
I am also interested in what people board out for specific matchups!
Especially if you run Sleight of hand and don't get the easy switch between Spirit guides and good sideboard cards.
Having a couple of good utility lands in the sideboard for when the lifegain doesn't matter is an easy switch, but what other cards do people here board out?
Concluding all of this, I would never play 2 Fountain. If your meta is aggressive/racey enough that you want 2 land slots dedicated to lifegain: play 2 Glimmerpost, otherwise: playing the single Radiant + a Khalni is usually enough to stabilize.
That was a good breakdown and I agree. It's a very good argument for only running 1 Radiant.
Even in matchups where lifegain is good, It's not unusual to get something like lifegain + blue source or bounceland, because you started with another color bounce land or Gemstone Mine.
If you tutor for 2 glimmerposts, you gain 4, then 3 with vesuva, and 3 each time vesuva enters the battlefield later. Fountains are better if you happen to draw them.
The thing about nut hands with SSG is that usually it doesnt matter if you drop titan turn one or turn two. It improves the best case scenario wich doesnt really need to be improved and sucks every other time. I suggest removing SSGs, drawing a bunch of six-card hands, and evaluating them as if the seventh card was ssg. Then doing the same with Stirrings or Sleight.
The deck doesnt shuffle any more than other decks. It runs no fetches and if you are searching your deck 3-4 times during a single turn, just ask your opponent if you could make a shortcut and shuffle it just one time eot.
Yes you could ask this, but be carefull with it in an official tournament setting. In the deck you often do things like, Tolaria west [s], into pact [s], into titan [s], get lands [s], haste, attack [s], get another tolaria west, get pact [s] (where every [s] is a shuffle). You could ask your opponent if you can shortcut a bit, which they might allow, but they can actually say no as well.
And even in the less extreme searching examples as this, it's normal to search at least once or twice a turn as your titans tend to die.
Also, I don't often get both lifegain lands at the same time, which makes the fountains better and a bit more flexible. It doesn't really matter much though.
I do agree about the turn 1 vs turn 2 titan thing. Though it does open up for more Spell pierce, Spell snare, Remand, Mana leak etc on your Summer Bloom, or gives them a window to cast Thoughseize on the play, and I often board out the spirit guides for games 2/3 as they are obviously strongest game 1. It plays like most combo decks that relies on stealing game 1, and have a longer grindier match in game 2/3. It also obviously depends on the meta.
I am also interested in what people board out for specific matchups!
Especially if you run Sleight of hand and don't get the easy switch between Spirit guides and good sideboard cards.
Having a couple of good utility lands in the sideboard for when the lifegain doesn't matter is an easy switch, but what other cards do people here board out?
Concluding all of this, I would never play 2 Fountain. If your meta is aggressive/racey enough that you want 2 land slots dedicated to lifegain: play 2 Glimmerpost, otherwise: playing the single Radiant + a Khalni is usually enough to stabilize.
That was a good breakdown and I agree. It's a very good argument for only running 1 Radiant.
@ SSG vs SoH - My sideboarding usually involves some number of Azusas, pacts, SoHs and/or Hive Minds. Azusa is just too easy to remove so anything running bolt its usually a dead card (they can respond to the triggers on our lands so you usually dont get the extra land drops), Pacts come out against people who can pay them or where they dont have targets (like Slaugher Pact against Jund/k, negation against U control decks etc) and SoHs are the worst of the cantrips so they are usually cut first.
My sideboarding priority is dead cards > weak filterings > weak cards. The reason I like to remove filtering is because by adding strong cards from the sideboard, our top decks suck less so we need to filter less.
It might be wrong but it works for me
Thanks for the breakdown on Glimmerpost vs Fountain. I think I will stick to 1 Fountain/1 Garden unless burn picks up a lot
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Seal of Primordium gets around Pro-Green I believe. For instance you could blow up an Etched Champion with Seal?
Vesuva with Titan trigger - Can you tutor up say Khalni Garden and Vesuva, and have Vesuva copy Garden? Im unsure about this because they enter at the same time. I think since Vesuva is an ETB trigger which you pick the target after both ETB you can do this.
Vesuva: also no. Vesuva is not an ETB trigger, it's a replacement effect.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Seal has an activated ability which has no color. It's the activated ability which targets and destroys.
For Vesuva the reprint is actually worded quite a lot different from the original. The judge actually told me I could do this, but it didn't seem correct to me. Thanks
Well that's no fun. Thanks for the info.
Said the guy with the interactive username!
Is this Vesuva info not in the primer? It should be if it's not.
That's kanister. I would be interested in see a report ^^
RBGW Suicide Zoo
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was just going to post that. the simian spirit guide list as well. so the debate to spirit guide or not to spirit guide continues.
whats taken me more by surprised with that list is it doesn't have leyline of sanctity in the sideboard.
has more than 1 chalice of the void. maybe fighting discard is best served by dropping chalice for 1?
hypothetically a spirit guide list running chalice could be turn 1 chalice for 1 and shut off both 1cc discard, 1cc burn, and path to exile that doesn't apply to that deck though, since its only running 2 chalices, need more than that to have good shot at turn 1 chalice.
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Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
The way he messed up that azusa vs bolt sequencing makes me cry Must've been the nerves!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Defmq9rX2VU#t=812
What am I missing here? Why does he not pact the pod?
He only had 1 blue source.
At first, I thought the deck was a bit inconsistent, but I've found the deck performing better and better the more practice I get. (No surprise, it's a challenging deck to learn) And unless you play against heavy discard, mulliganing isn't that big of a handicap (and something you really must learn with this deck)
The land tutoring and toolbox/ramp aspect works well, and with the Tolaria wests, the deck is very resilient to removal.
You also get some free wins with a turn 1/2 titan. I've gone 4-0 locally the last 2 modern tournaments (doesn't really say much since local metas vary wildly) and I like the deck more and more.
However, it does shuffles more than probably any other magic deck, which can take up a lot of time, combined with some grindy matchups against control, so practice before bringing it to a tournament. Though it feels like a really powerfull well positioned deck, if you take the time to learn it and its tricky interactions.
Oh and I play a similar list as many others, except I replaced the Tendo Ice bridge with a Kessig wolf run. (you can sometimes close out games with Azusa or Simian spirit guide attacking if your titans die) but maybe Khalni Garden will be better if Liliana becomes even more popular.
Also, it might be right to replace simian spirit guides for something like Sleight of hand, but I go back and forth. Consistency vs speed.
I guess this decks biggest enemy is blood moon!
Oh, and get a friend to slap you every time you forget a pact trigger! Or a dice on your deck, whatever;)
Edit: This is one of the reasons spirit guides are still here, I had this beautiful hand on the play against burn last night.
(don't mind the proxy titan, they were in my green devotion deck at the time)
http://s29.postimg.org/v4meu4n07/2096217654_n.jpg
Unless my math is wrong, you dont get an advantage to life gain until after the 4th Post is played (you get 1 for the first, 2 for the second, 3 if you copy one with Vesuva and then 3 again if you bounce one which adds to 9 life in 4 lands against the 8 for 4 fountains/copies). Seems like running 2 colourless lands instead of 1 (and getting to add another utility land) is not worth the work/trade off. Is there something I am missing?
Also, has anyone tried a single Temple of Mystery? I really want another blue source in the deck (I am running 4 Visions/3 SoH) and I find myself mulliganing otherwise acceptable hands because I am short a U source.
Yes, I prefer 2 fountains because of this. I will sometimes search out just 1 fountain + other land, bounce land, utility etc, so it gives more life than glimmerposts usually. I could see going to 1 fountain as well.
I have also missed another blue source occasionally, even thinking about adding a basic island, to have another land to fetch to path/ghost quarter. I guess I would add that if I decide to go Sleight of hand Instead of Simian spirit guide.
Having said that, let's look at the cases.
Case A: 2 Glimmer + Vesuva
vs
Case B: 2 Fountain + Vesuva
vs
Case C: 1 Fountain + Vesuva
plays out as follows if you're spamming lifegain.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you still have a land drop.
Land tutor 1
A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life
B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life
C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Land tutor 2
A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life
B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life
C: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life
All subsequent tutorings have the same effect.
Assuming post titan-search #1 you DO NOT have a land drop.
Land tutor 1
A: 2 Glimmer -> 4 Life
B: 2 Fountain -> 4 Life
C: 1 Fountain + 1 Bounce -> 2 Life
Land tutor 2
A: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 6 Life
B: 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce, Play Vesuva -> 4 Life
C: Play Fountain, 1 Vesuva + 1 Bounce -> 4 Life
Seeing as you often do not have a land drop after getting your first titan out the life gain over 2 turns comes down to the following:
A:10 life, 6 each turn after
B:8 life, 4 each turn after
C:6 life, 4 each turn after
Concluding all of this, I would never play 2 Fountain. If your meta is aggressive/racey enough that you want 2 land slots dedicated to lifegain: play 2 Glimmerpost, otherwise: playing the single Radiant + a Khalni is usually enough to stabilize.
Yes you could ask this, but be carefull with it in an official tournament setting. In the deck you often do things like, Tolaria west [s], into pact [s], into titan [s], get lands [s], haste, attack [s], get another tolaria west, get pact [s] (where every [s] is a shuffle). You could ask your opponent if you can shortcut a bit, which they might allow, but they can actually say no as well.
And even in the less extreme searching examples as this, it's normal to search at least once or twice a turn as your titans tend to die.
Also, I don't often get both lifegain lands at the same time, which makes the fountains better and a bit more flexible. It doesn't really matter much though.
I do agree about the turn 1 vs turn 2 titan thing. Though it does open up for more Spell pierce, Spell snare, Remand, Mana leak etc on your Summer Bloom, or gives them a window to cast Thoughseize on the play, and I often board out the spirit guides for games 2/3 as they are obviously strongest game 1. It plays like most combo decks that relies on stealing game 1, and have a longer grindier match in game 2/3. It also obviously depends on the meta.
I am also interested in what people board out for specific matchups!
Especially if you run Sleight of hand and don't get the easy switch between Spirit guides and good sideboard cards.
Having a couple of good utility lands in the sideboard for when the lifegain doesn't matter is an easy switch, but what other cards do people here board out?
That was a good breakdown and I agree. It's a very good argument for only running 1 Radiant.
Even in matchups where lifegain is good, It's not unusual to get something like lifegain + blue source or bounceland, because you started with another color bounce land or Gemstone Mine.
@ SSG vs SoH - My sideboarding usually involves some number of Azusas, pacts, SoHs and/or Hive Minds. Azusa is just too easy to remove so anything running bolt its usually a dead card (they can respond to the triggers on our lands so you usually dont get the extra land drops), Pacts come out against people who can pay them or where they dont have targets (like Slaugher Pact against Jund/k, negation against U control decks etc) and SoHs are the worst of the cantrips so they are usually cut first.
My sideboarding priority is dead cards > weak filterings > weak cards. The reason I like to remove filtering is because by adding strong cards from the sideboard, our top decks suck less so we need to filter less.
It might be wrong but it works for me
Thanks for the breakdown on Glimmerpost vs Fountain. I think I will stick to 1 Fountain/1 Garden unless burn picks up a lot