Electrolyze seems like a good idea. What's getting cut? Maybe -1 Vapor Snag, -1 Ninja, +2 Electrolyze? If we want a third Electrolyze, I'd cut Snapcaster.
I don't want to cut the cantrips, since they go a long way toward making mulligans unnecessary.
For the mana base, Sulfur Falls makes Vedalken Shackles weaker.
True on the Falls. I'm not sure it would be THAT much weaker, especially because most Modern creatures have such low CMC, but it's definitely something to consider. I'd also only add the Electrolyze in a metagame without a lot of Scapeshift, UWR Control, and RG Tron, because that card is really not so good in those matchups. But against Affinity, Jund, Melira Pod, Merfolk, and others, it's a whole lot better.
Thanks for your analysis on the metagame. I don't think it's necessary to breakdown to cards that you can counter, what's more important is the cards that you want to counter. I would not counter a Exarch or Pestermite since we have lots of better ways to handle it (2-for-1 them with Snag for instance). Also, adding 4 cmc3 cards doesn't mean you will have a shoal plus a cmc3 card when your opponent plays this exact card for 3 mana that will criple you. Yes, a T2 Liliana is almost unbeatable, but you could also Shoal the DRS and not let it happen T2.
If you want to make this deck an UR Delver deck, then please do so. You won't need Disrupting Shoal then though. Also, what would you cut?
I don't think it makes sence to cripple your mana base for adding some cmc 3 cards. Sulfur Falls is not an Island, so it will make Shackles weaker. You will take more damage as you want untapped lands a lot. I also like that the bad cards I put on the bottom with Serum Visions stay there and not get shuffled back on top.
I agree with this, the want (and how) are way more important. Do we really WANT to SHOAL a SOULS? No, very much not so. Then there's also the fact that when we get up in higher CMC we get into Remand, Cryptic + Snap these-territory, where the shoaling is not equally essential (heck, in just a few turn we are in hardcasted Shoal-territory).
Again, it's more about the want. Not saying there are no wants, though: electrolyze, lilly & clique are all cards i want to counter, but then again there might be other ways of doing that but shoaling with exile, by then.
I picked up this deck and fell in love with it the moment I first played it. Really nice work there Twoo, so thanks a lot for the deck idea!
I was doing very well with Twoo's initial list, but I still wanted to try out some changes (because, why not, it might be better).
First I went -1 Ninja +1 Clique. I know that Ninja's are the tech of the deck, but I dislike multiples in the starting hand. Its just clunky and in games where you don't get to do ninja shenaningans because your creatures get handled they are stuck in your hand. You also want to keep mana up for Snapcaster/Cryptic/Remand/Whatever, so you rarely get to hardcast them. Ninja is still very good and I love one in my starting hand, but I think the 1st Clique > 4th Ninja.
That freed up a SB slot, so I tried out a Pithing Needle. It is good against Pod, Spliter Twin (Lavamancer, Kikki-Jiki, the creature Splinter Twin enchants), Affinity (Plating, Steel Overseer, Ravager), Jund (DRS, Liliana), UWR (Colonnade, Planeswalkers) and so on. It could also be a Phyrexian Revoker, don't know yet.
I also tried out 1 Psionic Blast in the main over 1 Gitaxian Probe. I know Twoo is in love with the Probe, and so am I, but I think probing them once, getting to know their hand and planning accordingly is enough. As has already been mentioned, the Blast gives us reach (with Snapcaster its 8 damage, in a mono blue deck, at instant speed). It can also kill Planeswalkers (e.g. a Liliana even after they +1 it) and almost every creature except Goyf (though killing creatures is not the main use). I have used it surprise kill my opponent, and a couple of times I was in a spot where I thought: "Now only a Blast to the face will win me the game". I still don't want more than 1 in the main, because it costs 3 mana and doesn't draw a card
That leaves me with 2 3drops in the maindeck for Shoal, but it has never been relevant (I never wanted to pitch 1 to counter a Liliana, because they both handle her well).
Anyway, just my 2 cents. Keep working on the deck everyone!
Edit:
No, just no. Don't ever cut a Snapcaster. That's like cutting a Cryptic. Or a Delver. It's the best card in the lategame. It's your Cryptic 5-8. What could possibly be better tha a Snapcaster?
I just finished getting the cards together for this deck and I really like some of your changes.
I really like the idea of a miser's Psionic Blast. I feel that Clique might be good enough to cut a Ninja for, but it's hard to say as I haven't played the deck enough.
Finally, I'm going to test 1 or 2 Faerie Conclave (I know Twoo doesn't like it), to see if the extra man-land is helpful. I feel like it isn't going to be though, Activating a Faerie Conclave into an Electrolyze just sounds like it would be sad
I think Swarmyard's pushing it a tad too much. It's ultracute with a flipped Delver and does work with Mutavault, but after that it's kinda do nothing.
How is living end a bad matchup? I haven't played it so far (probably will tomorrow though), but in theory: They don't do anything until turn 3, so you can safely Ninja T2 on the play. Remand is pretty much a hardcounter for Living End, so Is Shoal for UU(x=0). If they then suspend (because you remanded it) Living End, you should have Cryptic or Snapcaster ready when it resolves. When they get to hardcast dudes, you snag them, or Snap-Snag them, or Cryptic-Tap them.
Bring in Cliques to take their cascader before they go off and maybe a Hibernation or two, because most creatures you care about if you have a flipped Delver are green. Deadshot Minotaur sucks, but I think it should be a favorable matchup.
I have tested a little against a fairly unexperienced Living End pilot, but my experience is that the match-up is favorable. As berry points out, we have eight 2CMC hard counters for the combo. The only problem as I see it that lack of a 3CMC for Disrupting Shoal, but since we play nearly exclusively basics vs. Fulminator Mage we only need that for Beast Within, and against vs. Avalanche Riders we can just ditch a ninja or hardcast a Crytic if we are on the play).
The deck only plays 3+CMC threats and we have eight answer against the combo in our main, so our gameplan should just be to play a T1 threat, protect it against Beast Within while keeping them of resolving Living End. And watch out for Simian Spirit Guide into Ricochet Trap.
I still wanted to try out some changes [...] First I went -1 Ninja +1 Clique. [...] I also tried out 1 Psionic Blast in the main over 1 Gitaxian Probe.
Nice metagame breakdown. Where are the numbers from? Just 3-1 og 4-0 from dailies, or official numbers?
The numbers are just from the officially reported 4-0/3-1 finishes from the single Daily every day. What is much more interesting is the +/- 2% margin of error for every deck, which was calculated over a few months of data collection by recording every single Daily finish, no matter the score and for every event. By comparing that "true" MTGO Daily prevalence with the estimate from the 4-0/3-1 sample from that period, I was able to see that the 4-0/3-1 sample wasn't too far off from the "true" prevalence, hence the 2% ME.
Havent heard anyone talk about possibly using Repeal. Being able to bounce and draw seems exactly liek what this deck wants to do. Not sure if there is much space anywhere for it though.
vs Snag.
Snag is always 1 mana, and does 1 dmg vs opponent, can hit manlands
Repeal is more mana, draws a card, can hit any permanent other than lands
Repeal seems expensive.. I'd like to be able to use it on a wurmcoil for example?
During Woo's last stream there were 2 guys stating some results. This deck made top 8 from a 64 man tournament in Germany and apparently won one in America. Something like that, can't check it right now.
So this deck is the real deal. Made it today and have played 10 matches, won every single match. Game 1s vs some decks can be pretty difficult but after board your bad matchups get soooo much better.
Okay. So I've been playing this deck for about 2 weeks now and after reading some comments about it, I've come to the conclusion that many people on this forum do not know how to properly play this deck, and do not correctly know how to play tempo in general.
Let's start with a few misconceptions.
1. This is a tempo deck. Not an aggro deck, not a control deck. You do not have to play out every creature that you draw, and you do not need to ninjutsu every ninja you draw. You do not need to counter every spell your opponent plays, just the ones that stop you from winning. For tempo to work you stick 1-2 threats and keep them there. I don't care what my opponent does as long as it doesn't 1. Make them win or 2. Make me not be able to win.
2. This IS NOT a ninja deck. This is a deck that has ninjas. There is no anti-synergy in this deck. If you have out a delver and it's putting in work as a 3/2, why are you trying to make it a non evasion 2/2 just to draw a card? You DO NOT need to pop out every ninja you draw.
3. Gitaxian probe and cryptic command are the 2 most important cards in the deck. Gitaxian probe allows this deck to work, stop cutting it. It's not only a free cantrip, it's information. The card let's you know what cards are coming, what to counter, what to let through. That's exactly the information tempo wants. Why are people cutting a card like this in a tempo deck?
4. This deck isn't about hard countering everything. It's about redundancy. A cryptic to tap down all blockers or attackers and then drawing another card is exactly what you want, remand does the same. You hold off threats until you can win. Sometimes you need to draw exactly one card to do it, the deck is designed to do just that, hence why the 4s of so many cards.
5. Adding colors only hurts the deck.
Anyone who has read the articles or comments on this should know this. Having only basics allows you to get the better side of a resolved deathrite shaman. Making your opponent only be able to ramp using their mana is critical. The mana base is solid as is. Adding a color also makes shoal worse. If you want to play a 2 color delver deck, then go play it. This is not that deck.
IMO this deck needs to be in Established....I don't remember the criteria quite yet, but people going to Modern tournaments should be expecting it.
If it meets the critirea, it will be moved there after the next banned list update, just like 8-Rack, Cruel Control, Kangaroo, Ad Nauseam, and U(x) Faeries.
I think that Travis Woo's primer could be used, as he has already used some quotes from this forum to write a second article about Ninja Delver; I would call it mutual collaboration
I must agree with the general opinion that this deck isn't for everybody. Honestly, I don't see myself playing it, despite I started in Modern playing the UB Delver deck that was very similar to it. This kind of decks that don't have neither the most powerful threats (Phantasmal Bear versus Goblin Guide issue) nor the most powerful answers (Vapor Snag versus Lightning Bolt issue) can make you feel as if you were playing handicapped.
An additional challenge is that every turn (not only yours, but also those of your opponent) you have to take decisions: is it better to play a creature, a cantrip or keep mana for a counterspell? Should you counter that spell or better wait for the important one? Should you play your Vapor Snag aggressively and try to race your opponent, or wait to chumpblock and trade creatures? And then you add to that mix of decisions Disrupting Shoal, a card that makes you wonder if you have to keep playing spells or save blue cards to counter the opponent's ones, and the uncertainty of Delver of Secrets flipping.
Gitaxian Probe simplifies many of these decisions by knowing what is in your opponent's hand and his game plan. I think that mediocre players are the most benefited from this spell, since I would expect from a pro to already play his spells correctly without "cheating" (and from a bad player to keep making mistakes even having that information at his disposal).
So, in a nutshell, if you have to take many decisions in a game, it will be more likely to commit mistakes, and pauper decks aren't very forgiving in a format of mythic rares.
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Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
The thing is, this deck is a lot harder to pilot than other tempo decks, specifically UR delver. There is no hard removal or reach, only bounce. I watched Hoogland stream UR delver, played the deck in the practice room and 3-1d a couple of DEs. It also helped that I played UWR control which plays similar cards. With ninja bear delver, I watched Woo's content, got crushed twice by soul sisters in the practice room and stopped playing the deck.
I've had some experience with tempo decks, but this one is different than your snapcaster burn version.
TkDodo I don't think you should worry tooo much about your life total. I love probing as many times as I can in a game, bc I want the constant info to know I'm always taking the best course of actions in games. We have the benefit of being "the beatdown" the majority of times, so abusing your life total as a resource really garners an advantage. Most opponents don't have the luxury since they're taking 2-6 a turn.
This deck is like the delver decks of scars/inn standard
The thing is, this deck is a lot harder to pilot than other tempo decks, specifically UR delver. There is no hard removal or reach, only bounce. I watched Hoogland stream UR delver, played the deck in the practice room and 3-1d a couple of DEs. It also helped that I played UWR control which plays similar cards. With ninja bear delver, I watched Woo's content, got crushed twice by soul sisters in the practice room and stopped playing the deck.
I've had some experience with tempo decks, but this one is different than your snapcaster burn version.
How is this deck harder to pilot than UR Delver? The fact that it runs Cryptic Command makes it so that problematic permanents that get through counters can be bounced and countered on the way back down. On the other hand, once a Tarmogoyf lands against UR Delver, it becomes a game of race or die.
I don't think it's harder to pilot. I think it's just a budget UR Delver deck that's worse against the field.
I don't think it's harder to pilot. I think it's just a budget UR Delver deck that's worse against the field.
I think the two decks are just very different strategies. The UR build looks more aggro-control than tempo, and I think the monoblue is more expensive than the UR decks that have been fairing well as of late.
Oh man, I feel invincible with this deck. I'm 14-1 matches in 2 man queues so far haha
So this deck feels decent game 1, can hold its own vs some and can pull out wins from no where. But postboard you just feel crazy OP haha The only match ive lost is vs Storm (1-2) and it was a play error on my part since I miscounted how much mana he would be able to generate after seeing his cards
I don't see why people keep posting about this deck and comparing it to UR delver. They are different decks. It is a counter burn deck more than anything. This is a pure tempo deck. Like I've said before, the people doing badly with this deck are probably playing it wrong.
Also. This deck doesn't need a card in the 3 cmc slot honestly. I have clique in the side and it's great but it's not a main board card.
Quote from Originally Posted by someone who never played the deck and doesn"t know a thing about it »
How is this deck harder to pilot than UR Delver? The fact that it runs Cryptic Command makes it so that problematic permanents that get through counters can be bounced and countered on the way back down. On the other hand, once a Tarmogoyf lands against UR Delver, it becomes a game of race or die.
I don't think it's harder to pilot. I think it's just a budget UR Delver deck that's worse against the field.
You're adorable. Keep posting in the forums, and maybe your attitude will get you there.
You're adorable. Keep posting in the forums, and maybe your attitude will get you there.
He's correct. This deck has already been shown to give results with a good pilot. It's much harder to play and far less forgiving than most decks. The lines of okay are not narrow at all, and even more so than most tempo decks. With a critical mass of bounce and no real removal the deck makes you highly consider each and every spell you counter or bounce.
Please explain your actual time with the deck instead of general comparisons to a deck that isn't even trying to do the same thing.
Also, would anyone be interested in me making a primer for this? It doesn't seem like anyone has stepped up for the challenge. I'd love a shot.
The "Originally posted by" was changed by someone else, he was commenting on him.
That said, he's just your typical guy getting a little hurt because someone claimed something he doesn't agree with and followed up with claiming the opposite with no arguments whatsoever. These kinds of posts should be kept out of this forum.
A primer would certainly be interesting, but I have no clue who has the merit to make one.
This deck has alot of promise - what do you guys think about its potential in putting up results? Are we looking at another solid tier 2 deck, or something more?
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True on the Falls. I'm not sure it would be THAT much weaker, especially because most Modern creatures have such low CMC, but it's definitely something to consider. I'd also only add the Electrolyze in a metagame without a lot of Scapeshift, UWR Control, and RG Tron, because that card is really not so good in those matchups. But against Affinity, Jund, Melira Pod, Merfolk, and others, it's a whole lot better.
I agree with this, the want (and how) are way more important. Do we really WANT to SHOAL a SOULS? No, very much not so. Then there's also the fact that when we get up in higher CMC we get into Remand, Cryptic + Snap these-territory, where the shoaling is not equally essential (heck, in just a few turn we are in hardcasted Shoal-territory).
Again, it's more about the want. Not saying there are no wants, though: electrolyze, lilly & clique are all cards i want to counter, but then again there might be other ways of doing that but shoaling with exile, by then.
I just finished getting the cards together for this deck and I really like some of your changes.
I really like the idea of a miser's Psionic Blast. I feel that Clique might be good enough to cut a Ninja for, but it's hard to say as I haven't played the deck enough.
Finally, I'm going to test 1 or 2 Faerie Conclave (I know Twoo doesn't like it), to see if the extra man-land is helpful. I feel like it isn't going to be though, Activating a Faerie Conclave into an Electrolyze just sounds like it would be sad
Currently playing:
- URx Twin in Modern
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I have tested a little against a fairly unexperienced Living End pilot, but my experience is that the match-up is favorable. As berry points out, we have eight 2CMC hard counters for the combo. The only problem as I see it that lack of a 3CMC for Disrupting Shoal, but since we play nearly exclusively basics vs. Fulminator Mage we only need that for Beast Within, and against vs. Avalanche Riders we can just ditch a ninja or hardcast a Crytic if we are on the play).
The deck only plays 3+CMC threats and we have eight answer against the combo in our main, so our gameplan should just be to play a T1 threat, protect it against Beast Within while keeping them of resolving Living End. And watch out for Simian Spirit Guide into Ricochet Trap.
Nice metagame breakdown. Where are the numbers from? Just 3-1 og 4-0 from dailies, or official numbers?
I like cutting Vapor Snag over Gitaxian Probe for the Psionic Blast.
I'm cutting the Mutavaults, going the opposite direction for the increased consistency.
The numbers are just from the officially reported 4-0/3-1 finishes from the single Daily every day. What is much more interesting is the +/- 2% margin of error for every deck, which was calculated over a few months of data collection by recording every single Daily finish, no matter the score and for every event. By comparing that "true" MTGO Daily prevalence with the estimate from the 4-0/3-1 sample from that period, I was able to see that the 4-0/3-1 sample wasn't too far off from the "true" prevalence, hence the 2% ME.
vs Snag.
Snag is always 1 mana, and does 1 dmg vs opponent, can hit manlands
Repeal is more mana, draws a card, can hit any permanent other than lands
Thoughts?
During Woo's last stream there were 2 guys stating some results. This deck made top 8 from a 64 man tournament in Germany and apparently won one in America. Something like that, can't check it right now.
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Let's start with a few misconceptions.
1. This is a tempo deck. Not an aggro deck, not a control deck. You do not have to play out every creature that you draw, and you do not need to ninjutsu every ninja you draw. You do not need to counter every spell your opponent plays, just the ones that stop you from winning. For tempo to work you stick 1-2 threats and keep them there. I don't care what my opponent does as long as it doesn't 1. Make them win or 2. Make me not be able to win.
2. This IS NOT a ninja deck. This is a deck that has ninjas. There is no anti-synergy in this deck. If you have out a delver and it's putting in work as a 3/2, why are you trying to make it a non evasion 2/2 just to draw a card? You DO NOT need to pop out every ninja you draw.
3. Gitaxian probe and cryptic command are the 2 most important cards in the deck. Gitaxian probe allows this deck to work, stop cutting it. It's not only a free cantrip, it's information. The card let's you know what cards are coming, what to counter, what to let through. That's exactly the information tempo wants. Why are people cutting a card like this in a tempo deck?
4. This deck isn't about hard countering everything. It's about redundancy. A cryptic to tap down all blockers or attackers and then drawing another card is exactly what you want, remand does the same. You hold off threats until you can win. Sometimes you need to draw exactly one card to do it, the deck is designed to do just that, hence why the 4s of so many cards.
5. Adding colors only hurts the deck.
Anyone who has read the articles or comments on this should know this. Having only basics allows you to get the better side of a resolved deathrite shaman. Making your opponent only be able to ramp using their mana is critical. The mana base is solid as is. Adding a color also makes shoal worse. If you want to play a 2 color delver deck, then go play it. This is not that deck.
Anything I missed?
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
If it meets the critirea, it will be moved there after the next banned list update, just like 8-Rack, Cruel Control, Kangaroo, Ad Nauseam, and U(x) Faeries.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I must agree with the general opinion that this deck isn't for everybody. Honestly, I don't see myself playing it, despite I started in Modern playing the UB Delver deck that was very similar to it. This kind of decks that don't have neither the most powerful threats (Phantasmal Bear versus Goblin Guide issue) nor the most powerful answers (Vapor Snag versus Lightning Bolt issue) can make you feel as if you were playing handicapped.
An additional challenge is that every turn (not only yours, but also those of your opponent) you have to take decisions: is it better to play a creature, a cantrip or keep mana for a counterspell? Should you counter that spell or better wait for the important one? Should you play your Vapor Snag aggressively and try to race your opponent, or wait to chumpblock and trade creatures? And then you add to that mix of decisions Disrupting Shoal, a card that makes you wonder if you have to keep playing spells or save blue cards to counter the opponent's ones, and the uncertainty of Delver of Secrets flipping.
Gitaxian Probe simplifies many of these decisions by knowing what is in your opponent's hand and his game plan. I think that mediocre players are the most benefited from this spell, since I would expect from a pro to already play his spells correctly without "cheating" (and from a bad player to keep making mistakes even having that information at his disposal).
So, in a nutshell, if you have to take many decisions in a game, it will be more likely to commit mistakes, and pauper decks aren't very forgiving in a format of mythic rares.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
I've had some experience with tempo decks, but this one is different than your snapcaster burn version.
This deck is like the delver decks of scars/inn standard
UW
How is this deck harder to pilot than UR Delver? The fact that it runs Cryptic Command makes it so that problematic permanents that get through counters can be bounced and countered on the way back down. On the other hand, once a Tarmogoyf lands against UR Delver, it becomes a game of race or die.
I don't think it's harder to pilot. I think it's just a budget UR Delver deck that's worse against the field.
I think the two decks are just very different strategies. The UR build looks more aggro-control than tempo, and I think the monoblue is more expensive than the UR decks that have been fairing well as of late.
UW
UW
So this deck feels decent game 1, can hold its own vs some and can pull out wins from no where. But postboard you just feel crazy OP haha The only match ive lost is vs Storm (1-2) and it was a play error on my part since I miscounted how much mana he would be able to generate after seeing his cards
Also. This deck doesn't need a card in the 3 cmc slot honestly. I have clique in the side and it's great but it's not a main board card.
You're adorable. Keep posting in the forums, and maybe your attitude will get you there.
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He's correct. This deck has already been shown to give results with a good pilot. It's much harder to play and far less forgiving than most decks. The lines of okay are not narrow at all, and even more so than most tempo decks. With a critical mass of bounce and no real removal the deck makes you highly consider each and every spell you counter or bounce.
Please explain your actual time with the deck instead of general comparisons to a deck that isn't even trying to do the same thing.
Also, would anyone be interested in me making a primer for this? It doesn't seem like anyone has stepped up for the challenge. I'd love a shot.
The "Originally posted by" was changed by someone else, he was commenting on him.
That said, he's just your typical guy getting a little hurt because someone claimed something he doesn't agree with and followed up with claiming the opposite with no arguments whatsoever. These kinds of posts should be kept out of this forum.
A primer would certainly be interesting, but I have no clue who has the merit to make one.