This deck is amazingly fun to play, so many options. I went 3-1 with it the other day in the Daily, only losing to Twin in a super close game 3 with him left on 1 life.
Don't hate too much on the ninja, it is proven to be very effective. It often comes up that you're able to endstep a snapcaster to snag their untapped blocker and then ninja it the following turn to draw and get multiple uses from the snap.
The deck is very hard to play though, with so many options every turn you always feel like you could have made a different decision that could have changed the outcome of the game. The upside is you get to learn a lot with every game.
nivmagus elemental + gigadrowse is a hilarious mini combo.
I think thoughtscour might be better than serum visions as leaving mana up to counter actually does matter
and delver/ninja anti synergy is actually not a thing. The games when delver flips and goes to town you were already winning. YOU are the individual who gets to decide which is better so a little skill goes a long way.
I am not a fan of 4x remand. Its a great tempo play, but I feel like I want access to mana leak in some number
So many games go long that mana leak is no good. Remands give you time for cryptic which gives you time for snap cryptic. Then you ninja and start all over. It is sick to watch.
It wins by drowning the opponent in CA and value. That's why I think Judges Familiar is better in that spot. Wingcrafter has synergy with Ninja, but it seems too cute.
It has control elements, but it's a tempo deck by heart. Delver is needed to put a clock on the opponent because the deck can't deal with threats stuck on the board. Swinging for 3 a turn compared to 2 or 1 is pretty huge.
As to what people are saying about Liliana basically killing this deck when she resolves:
If the deck wants to main a 3-drop to turn on Disrupting Shoal for that CMC, the best option is probably Vendilion Clique. The problem is cuts. Cutting too many cantrips hurts delver flip chances, while cutting too many bears hurts the chances of an early ninja. On the other hand, Clique is disruption with a clock attached, and also has an ETB effect worth bouncing for.
I haven't tried the deck myself, but a question for those who have: what do you think about main-decking Vendilion Clique, and what would the cuts be?
I'm assuming the existing list has a good reason to side them, probably to maximize Delver and Ninja consistency.
Firstly, you don't have a Ninja EVERY time you have a Delver, and by being the best blue 1drop creature in like, ever, I think he doesn't deserve all the bash.
Secondly, if the Delver flips and you Ninja him (if you feel you have to do it, because sometimes you don't) it's not like you invested resources on flipping it, you just revealed a card. If you played a Judge's Familiar or Cloudfin Raptor you just invested the same resources (with the virtual advantage of not revealing the card) and you only gained in having more evasion, in the case you couldn't flip Delver. To do that, you replaced one of the best creatures in the game with cards that aren't threats at all in a format like this. Delver wins games on it's own. It doesn't happen always, but a Turn 2 3/2 flier is far more broken than Wild Nacatl, and look where he is poor cat.
I myself was skeptical about Phantasmal Bear at first, but the 2 power is so much better than 1 that I ended up understanding why it's there. And the format isn't full of things that can use it's drawback to kill it freely (Electrolyze would kill it if it had 1 toughness too, and I think the bear would still be there if that'd be the case)
With so much cantripping, the deck is stupidly consistent in chaining Cryptics and even though Vargas did get lucky, it runs pretty smooth. Also, the side seems pretty rough but all the cards there are very powerful in their intended functions (save for Wurmcoil Engine, pretty weird here, but hey, it works!! Would probably put something else though... Spellskite probably)
If pros are playing it, it can't be bad. Noone on here can bash it when none of you have the records those guys do. When chaplin or nelson or someone like that starts to bash on it then ill listen but as i see it, the deck is beast. Watch the vids on channelfireball. You guys that bash decks are just trolls who wish they were playing better. Get outta here haters.
Out of curiosity, why is that a Wurmcoil and not a Batterskull in the board? I realize that each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but I would imagine that the 5cc life gaining beatstick would be better than the 6cc life gaining beatstick in a deck with this few lands. Or is Wurmcoil just so much better that it's worth the risk?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
If pros are playing it, it can't be bad. Noone on here can bash it when none of you have the records those guys do. When chaplin or nelson or someone like that starts to bash on it then ill listen but as i see it, the deck is beast. Watch the vids on channelfireball. You guys that bash decks are just trolls who wish they were playing better. Get outta here haters.
You are completely clueless if you don't think some Pro's hype decks they build just to sell cards, for ChannelFireball in this case. People in here are talking like this is Woo's secret baby. Let me ask you, if you had a secret deck that you thought was so freaking amazing that it demolishes everything in the format, why would you publish it? If he felt so strongly about it then he would have saved it for the next major event. This is nothing but some cards thrown together in order to sell some Disrupting Shoals.
The deck works but it's not a format killer like some people in here have convinced themselves. People will figure out how to play against it and it will disappear as fast as it came.
i think as long as this deck can run through top tier decks easily like pod, affinity, tron and uwr control the deck will be here to stay. it just needs tweaking with the numbers and the sideboard.
I doubt it will disappear, this deck is legitimately good.
I feel like DRS and abrubt decay would make this deck so much better. Sure, it corrupts the original conception but I think the changes are worth it. I made these changes:
-2 vaporsnag
-1 remand
-1 mutavault
-10 islands
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+3 abrupt decay (with one more SB)
+3 watery grave
+3 breeding pool
+8 island fetches
The deck is just as consistent, but now we have legitmate answers to things that get through our countermagic. The more painful land base is certainly a factor, but I like how it plays out
Out of curiosity, why is that a Wurmcoil and not a Batterskull in the board? I realize that each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but I would imagine that the 5cc life gaining beatstick would be better than the 6cc life gaining beatstick in a deck with this few lands. Or is Wurmcoil just so much better that it's worth the risk?
I believe TWoo briefly addressed this in one of his streams (can't remember which one, sorry). He mentioned that Batterskull is better if he has infinite mana, but overall it's easier to answer than Wurmcoil Engine: the germ token can be abrupt decayed and wurmcoil still leaves 2 tokens when maelstrom pulsed.
I doubt it will disappear, this deck is legitimately good.
I feel like DRS and abrubt decay would make this deck so much better. Sure, it corrupts the original conception but I think the changes are worth it. I made these changes:
-2 vaporsnag
-1 remand
-1 mutavault
-10 islands
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+3 abrupt decay (with one more SB)
+3 watery grave
+3 breeding pool
+8 island fetches
The deck is just as consistent, but now we have legitmate answers to things that get through our countermagic. The more painful land base is certainly a factor, but I like how it plays out
I think you are missing 4 cards you took out, I guess Disrupting Shoal if you are going that way... if that's so, take into account that with 20 creatures Delver loses efficiency (not that much Snap because you'll rarely be FBing Shoal though :P)
EDIT: and if you plan on casting Decay, you'll likely take 6 damage from lands (you don't want taplands in this kind of deck normally). Not necessary IMO...
The defining part of the deck was the creature base--a combination of Pauper cards and format pillars. The only thing I didn't like was the spell base, so I decided to tweak that.
Vapor Snag hasn't worked out too well for me in testing--I find myself Snagging my own creature more often than not to save the precious few threats I have from removal, and Pod just makes it look bad pre-board. Gitaxian Probe is nice, but I feel like a discard spell could help with the matchups that we aren't so happy to see (Jund, Splinter Twin, Soul Sisters), which have permanents that are particularly difficult for the deck to answer.
Adding a discard suite to the deck has helped out in the control matchups, and Snapcastering multiple discard spells is a little better than Probing multiple times. Smother is something I wanted to try out in place of Vapor Snag. It kills nearly everything I can think of that could hurt us (DRS, Confidant, Goyf, opposing Delvers, Clique, etc.) and is a more permanent answer than Snag. It's a way to combat the various Aether Vial decks that will just drop the creature with Vial again. It isn't very good against Pod however, so that might be something to consider. It is also absurd against the UWR decks that have almost no win conditions, since it can deal with Colonnade on a permanent basis.
I realize that it just looks like a U/B Delver list, but I maintain that the core of the deck is its unique creature base and not the spells. The land base isn't hurt terribly--I just went a little overboard with my mana base, which is certainly incorrect. My sideboard is still a work in progress:
I wonder at what point Travis decided not to play Spellstutter Sprite in this Pauper port. Like Snapcaster Mage, it's basically an Ancestral Recall combined with Ninja of the Deep Hours, and its evasion helps in those situations where the opponent has blockers, and SCM and Bear can't get through (since you don't want to pick up Delver).
I feel like people need to come to grips with the fact this deck isn't a ninja deck. Its a deck that runs four ninjas.
The ninjas do good things when they can, but they aren't the focus of the deck. Its just a tempo deck. The strong cards are the remands and Shoals and Unsummon effects. Snapcaster gets to use them over and over and if you start Snapcastering Cryptic commands you are doing pretty good. Ninja's primary function is to act as Snapcasters 5-8.
The massive amounts of card draw really help the deck do what its supposed to do play mini-timewalk effects that stall out your opponent while your 3/2 flyer you cast on turn 1 does kills your opponent.
Spellstutter Sprite probably should be in the 75. But too many creatures will make it harder to flip Delver which is what you want to do when you can.
Mono-blue helps with a smaller land count. It also helps not to take 5 damage from lands. Every damage you prevent is key to a tempo deck. They don't control an opponent so much as just slow them down, so you need to keep doing damage (which Delver does as effectively as any creature blue can do for one mana) and keep slowing down your opponent.
I see the Bears as suspect, but I can't think of something more aggressive in Blue that can be cast turn 1.
I don't think this is a very strong deck in the scheme of things, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. It's very threat light, and I don't see it being able to out-card advantage many of the stronger decks in the format, especially when it has trouble actually removing threats.
I think a big part of it is that it's unexpected, and people really, really want a deck like this to exist.
Don't forget that Snag is also there to slow down an opponents turn 1 play and since you are still running Shoal replacing Snag it with Smother hurts Disrupting Should by quite a bit.
I completely agree. It's often necessary to kill a manadork from Pod on the draw which isn't possible with Smother. Smother also can't deal damage to the opponent, which matters more than I thought it would. But I had to make a concession somewhere because Vapor Snag just wasn't performing. Dismember is overkill and terrible against any fast deck and Disfigure doesn't kill Goyf, although they're wonderful post-board.
There are still 17 1CMC spells and one less Shoal, so I hope that works out.
I doubt it will disappear, this deck is legitimately good.
I feel like DRS and abrubt decay would make this deck so much better. Sure, it corrupts the original conception but I think the changes are worth it. I made these changes:
-2 vaporsnag
-1 remand
-1 mutavault
-10 islands
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+3 abrupt decay (with one more SB)
+3 watery grave
+3 breeding pool
+8 island fetches
The deck is just as consistent, but now we have legitmate answers to things that get through our countermagic. The more painful land base is certainly a factor, but I like how it plays out
the other 4 cards i took out were the bears. as for this configuration taking more damage from lands: so what? the original incarnation of this deck cant win vs burn anyways, and i firmly believe (and have the test games to prove it)that decay prevents more damage in matchups that are close but unfavorable
Cosi's Trickster might not be bad. It has negative synergy with Ninja, but he could get bigger than 2/2 very easily. But against some decks he is just a 1/1. I"m not sold on him.
I was actually surprised how few choices there are for just cheap creatures in blue and colorless.
BTW -- I looked at Porcelain Legionnaire and I think he has good synergy. First Strike and Ninjas is good 3 power for 2 mana is good. 2 damage when you cast him and ninjas making you recast him is negative synergy. Plus the point of the deck is to play threats and then back them up with Tempo spells.
I've been testing a lot and I've replaced a vapor snag and one bear with faerie impostors and it is really good. I can bounce my snapcasters and ninjas which only vapor snag could've done. It has evasion so you are able to ninja again.
This might be a good place to try a single Familiar's Ruse in the place of one Remand (or other card).
Familiar's Ruse to hard counter something (maybe even stealing one of their creatures with Vedalken Shackles and then just bounce it) > snapcaster mage to flashback Familiar's Ruse which in turn returns your Snapcaster. Seems like reasonable advantage.
Thassa, God of the Sea could be used as a three drop that might fix draws, flip delvers and help to connect with the Ninja. Also fills that 3-drop spot for pitching to Disrupting Shoal.
Don't hate too much on the ninja, it is proven to be very effective. It often comes up that you're able to endstep a snapcaster to snag their untapped blocker and then ninja it the following turn to draw and get multiple uses from the snap.
The deck is very hard to play though, with so many options every turn you always feel like you could have made a different decision that could have changed the outcome of the game. The upside is you get to learn a lot with every game.
I think thoughtscour might be better than serum visions as leaving mana up to counter actually does matter
and delver/ninja anti synergy is actually not a thing. The games when delver flips and goes to town you were already winning. YOU are the individual who gets to decide which is better so a little skill goes a long way.
I am not a fan of 4x remand. Its a great tempo play, but I feel like I want access to mana leak in some number
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372
It has control elements, but it's a tempo deck by heart. Delver is needed to put a clock on the opponent because the deck can't deal with threats stuck on the board. Swinging for 3 a turn compared to 2 or 1 is pretty huge.
I agree that this about sums it up IMO. You guys are all playing people who have no idea how to play against the deck and are caught off guard.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
If the deck wants to main a 3-drop to turn on Disrupting Shoal for that CMC, the best option is probably Vendilion Clique. The problem is cuts. Cutting too many cantrips hurts delver flip chances, while cutting too many bears hurts the chances of an early ninja. On the other hand, Clique is disruption with a clock attached, and also has an ETB effect worth bouncing for.
I haven't tried the deck myself, but a question for those who have: what do you think about main-decking Vendilion Clique, and what would the cuts be?
I'm assuming the existing list has a good reason to side them, probably to maximize Delver and Ninja consistency.
Firstly, you don't have a Ninja EVERY time you have a Delver, and by being the best blue 1drop creature in like, ever, I think he doesn't deserve all the bash.
Secondly, if the Delver flips and you Ninja him (if you feel you have to do it, because sometimes you don't) it's not like you invested resources on flipping it, you just revealed a card. If you played a Judge's Familiar or Cloudfin Raptor you just invested the same resources (with the virtual advantage of not revealing the card) and you only gained in having more evasion, in the case you couldn't flip Delver. To do that, you replaced one of the best creatures in the game with cards that aren't threats at all in a format like this. Delver wins games on it's own. It doesn't happen always, but a Turn 2 3/2 flier is far more broken than Wild Nacatl, and look where he is poor cat.
I myself was skeptical about Phantasmal Bear at first, but the 2 power is so much better than 1 that I ended up understanding why it's there. And the format isn't full of things that can use it's drawback to kill it freely (Electrolyze would kill it if it had 1 toughness too, and I think the bear would still be there if that'd be the case)
With so much cantripping, the deck is stupidly consistent in chaining Cryptics and even though Vargas did get lucky, it runs pretty smooth. Also, the side seems pretty rough but all the cards there are very powerful in their intended functions (save for Wurmcoil Engine, pretty weird here, but hey, it works!! Would probably put something else though... Spellskite probably)
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
You are completely clueless if you don't think some Pro's hype decks they build just to sell cards, for ChannelFireball in this case. People in here are talking like this is Woo's secret baby. Let me ask you, if you had a secret deck that you thought was so freaking amazing that it demolishes everything in the format, why would you publish it? If he felt so strongly about it then he would have saved it for the next major event. This is nothing but some cards thrown together in order to sell some Disrupting Shoals.
The deck works but it's not a format killer like some people in here have convinced themselves. People will figure out how to play against it and it will disappear as fast as it came.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I feel like DRS and abrubt decay would make this deck so much better. Sure, it corrupts the original conception but I think the changes are worth it. I made these changes:
-2 vaporsnag
-1 remand
-1 mutavault
-10 islands
+4 Deathrite Shaman
+3 abrupt decay (with one more SB)
+3 watery grave
+3 breeding pool
+8 island fetches
The deck is just as consistent, but now we have legitmate answers to things that get through our countermagic. The more painful land base is certainly a factor, but I like how it plays out
I believe TWoo briefly addressed this in one of his streams (can't remember which one, sorry). He mentioned that Batterskull is better if he has infinite mana, but overall it's easier to answer than Wurmcoil Engine: the germ token can be abrupt decayed and wurmcoil still leaves 2 tokens when maelstrom pulsed.
I think you are missing 4 cards you took out, I guess Disrupting Shoal if you are going that way... if that's so, take into account that with 20 creatures Delver loses efficiency (not that much Snap because you'll rarely be FBing Shoal though :P)
EDIT: and if you plan on casting Decay, you'll likely take 6 damage from lands (you don't want taplands in this kind of deck normally). Not necessary IMO...
6 Island
2 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Phantasmal Bear
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
Instants
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
3 Disrupting Shoal
4 Smother
4 Serum Visions
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
The defining part of the deck was the creature base--a combination of Pauper cards and format pillars. The only thing I didn't like was the spell base, so I decided to tweak that.
Vapor Snag hasn't worked out too well for me in testing--I find myself Snagging my own creature more often than not to save the precious few threats I have from removal, and Pod just makes it look bad pre-board. Gitaxian Probe is nice, but I feel like a discard spell could help with the matchups that we aren't so happy to see (Jund, Splinter Twin, Soul Sisters), which have permanents that are particularly difficult for the deck to answer.
Adding a discard suite to the deck has helped out in the control matchups, and Snapcastering multiple discard spells is a little better than Probing multiple times. Smother is something I wanted to try out in place of Vapor Snag. It kills nearly everything I can think of that could hurt us (DRS, Confidant, Goyf, opposing Delvers, Clique, etc.) and is a more permanent answer than Snag. It's a way to combat the various Aether Vial decks that will just drop the creature with Vial again. It isn't very good against Pod however, so that might be something to consider. It is also absurd against the UWR decks that have almost no win conditions, since it can deal with Colonnade on a permanent basis.
I realize that it just looks like a U/B Delver list, but I maintain that the core of the deck is its unique creature base and not the spells. The land base isn't hurt terribly--I just went a little overboard with my mana base, which is certainly incorrect. My sideboard is still a work in progress:
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
1 Batterskull
2 Vedalken Shackles
GW Tokens GW || UB UB Control UB || BRG Jund Aggro BRG || UR Wee Dragonauts Tempo UR || BG Fungus/Saproling BG || W Soldiers W ||
GWU Bant Flicker Gun GWU
Under Construction
U Wizards Tribal Control U || RG MLD Trolling RG
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=496372
The ninjas do good things when they can, but they aren't the focus of the deck. Its just a tempo deck. The strong cards are the remands and Shoals and Unsummon effects. Snapcaster gets to use them over and over and if you start Snapcastering Cryptic commands you are doing pretty good. Ninja's primary function is to act as Snapcasters 5-8.
The massive amounts of card draw really help the deck do what its supposed to do play mini-timewalk effects that stall out your opponent while your 3/2 flyer you cast on turn 1 does kills your opponent.
Spellstutter Sprite probably should be in the 75. But too many creatures will make it harder to flip Delver which is what you want to do when you can.
Mono-blue helps with a smaller land count. It also helps not to take 5 damage from lands. Every damage you prevent is key to a tempo deck. They don't control an opponent so much as just slow them down, so you need to keep doing damage (which Delver does as effectively as any creature blue can do for one mana) and keep slowing down your opponent.
I see the Bears as suspect, but I can't think of something more aggressive in Blue that can be cast turn 1.
Drifter Il-Dal? It sets your plays back though.
I don't think this is a very strong deck in the scheme of things, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. It's very threat light, and I don't see it being able to out-card advantage many of the stronger decks in the format, especially when it has trouble actually removing threats.
I think a big part of it is that it's unexpected, and people really, really want a deck like this to exist.
I completely agree. It's often necessary to kill a manadork from Pod on the draw which isn't possible with Smother. Smother also can't deal damage to the opponent, which matters more than I thought it would. But I had to make a concession somewhere because Vapor Snag just wasn't performing. Dismember is overkill and terrible against any fast deck and Disfigure doesn't kill Goyf, although they're wonderful post-board.
There are still 17 1CMC spells and one less Shoal, so I hope that works out.
GW Tokens GW || UB UB Control UB || BRG Jund Aggro BRG || UR Wee Dragonauts Tempo UR || BG Fungus/Saproling BG || W Soldiers W ||
GWU Bant Flicker Gun GWU
Under Construction
U Wizards Tribal Control U || RG MLD Trolling RG
the other 4 cards i took out were the bears. as for this configuration taking more damage from lands: so what? the original incarnation of this deck cant win vs burn anyways, and i firmly believe (and have the test games to prove it)that decay prevents more damage in matchups that are close but unfavorable
I think I will try to homebrew this deck to use Mindshrieker...I really hope it works because on paper it may make sense...
Here's what I will try (please don't take this to seriously...I only want to share my idea not to prove anything) :
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Remand
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Cryptic Command
3 Serum Visions
3 Second Sight
2 Whirlpool Whelm
1 Vapor Snag
Delver to eat the early removal
Second Sight, Serum Visions and Whirlpool Whelm to control top of library (for Delver and Mindshrieker)
Shoal to pitch extra Training Grounds
Ok, I know Training Grounds is a dead card in most case, but it can win you game quickly
I was actually surprised how few choices there are for just cheap creatures in blue and colorless.
BTW -- I looked at Porcelain Legionnaire and I think he has good synergy. First Strike and Ninjas is good 3 power for 2 mana is good. 2 damage when you cast him and ninjas making you recast him is negative synergy. Plus the point of the deck is to play threats and then back them up with Tempo spells.
It would give a 3cc spell for disrupting shoal and it kind of draws a card.
The downside is obviously losing some tempo plays. Anyone tried this?
RJaya Ballard, Task Mage Mono Red Control Decklist
WNahiri, the Lithomancer Mono White Control Decklist
RGWUKynaios and Tiro of Meletis Aikido Control Decklist
UBGisa and Geralf Tribal Aggro Decklist
URGRiku of Two Reflections Non-combo coolstuff Decklist
RWUBruse Tarl, Boorish Herder and Kraum, Ludovic's Opus Equipments Decklist
WBAthreos, God of Passage Reanimate/Goodstuff Decklist
Familiar's Ruse to hard counter something (maybe even stealing one of their creatures with Vedalken Shackles and then just bounce it) > snapcaster mage to flashback Familiar's Ruse which in turn returns your Snapcaster. Seems like reasonable advantage.
Thassa, God of the Sea could be used as a three drop that might fix draws, flip delvers and help to connect with the Ninja. Also fills that 3-drop spot for pitching to Disrupting Shoal.