The mass hysteria is cheap haste, I tried Sarkhan and god would I love him to work but he just got stuck in my hand too many times and out of about twenty games, I did not cascade into him once, really bizarre as if I seen him, I saw both of him in my hand, very annoying. At least with hysteria I can turn my big boys into haste for one red mana. The gods kind of work with the rest of the creatures in the deck, giving trample and doing damage. A huge wave with 1 Rampaging Baloths coupled with god of the forge,should be an instant win.
I wont go into details about games I won since its irrelevant:
R1: Boros burn; g1: Boros burn on wings of the titan, g2 he flooded.
R2: BWG pod, g1: Kessig with finks and baloth, g2: Keep a 1-lander, concede, g3: t3 G-wave for 9, no answer.
R3: UWR midrange: g1: Assume the role of aggro, GoST puts me in my place, missplay, g2: t4 Iona (gifts into rites + iona), I scoop.
R4: 4-color ZOO; g1: Finks and geists with Kessig, g2: He overhelms me with GoST with me stuck on 2 lands, g3: Mulligan to 6, keep a bad one lander (Nykthos) and fold in 3 turns.
The major part in every loss was my bad decisions. Keeping bad hands and wrong decisions whilst playing cost me alot.
Leaving that aside, I believe my deck could improve:
-1 Emrakul, -1 Eye of Ugin (cute but overkill)
-1 Genesis Wave (two in my opening hand do nothing, it was a mistake to even try)
+1 Leatherback Baloth (he's a star, he may be vanilla, but bolts don't hit him, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iJMaezaiG8 is how he interacts with Nacatls)
+2 Forest/Verdant Catacombs (I got screwed one too many times)
Save for that, deck seems solid. Even late game, the only truly dead draw are either Elves or Rampchants. And even they serve a purpose.
I dismissed cantriping long ago, and I'm not looking back. Solid creatures that are hard to remove are exactly what I like, and if any nice 2cmc green drop gets printed, the build would be great.
Bolts and Paths really don't do much against it, since it either thins our deck, or just trades in our favour.
Now, this was very limited testing, but it confirms what countless games online lead me to believe. Even without Nykthos, Wave and/or other devotion abusers, deck needs to be solid, and present a threat.
Mono green midrange on its own isn't that scary, but piloted properly, knowing your opponent, and knowing how to fish removal, the deck is solid. Far from t1, but solid.
As a fella above me already said, we need more ways to interact with our opponent.
Like the list. Have you tried ditching the BTEs and fleshing out your witnesses, titans, and baloths? Just curious to see what the difference is, and just how much the BTEs improved your game.
In my opinion if you're aiming to play a slower, more resilient/fair game you should have creatures that get past 2 of the 3 major removal spells in modern (bolt, path, abrupt decay). So Kitchen Finks can get destroyed by bolt/decay, but it comes back again which either forces them to use two removal spells or have one of their creatures die and use the spell. On the other hand, Leatherback gets hit by decay and path, but not lightning bolt. Since it can't get past 2/3 the major removal I'm not a fan of it.
Obviously this is all theory crafting but it's my thoughts on how we should be choosing creatures.
Private Mod Note
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
In my opinion if you're aiming to play a slower, more resilient/fair game you should have creatures that get past 2 of the 3 major removal spells in modern (bolt, path, abrupt decay). So Kitchen Finks can get destroyed by bolt/decay, but it comes back again which either forces them to use two removal spells or have one of their creatures die and use the spell. On the other hand, Leatherback gets hit by decay and path, but not lightning bolt. Since it can't get past 2/3 the major removal I'm not a fan of it.
Obviously this is all theory crafting but it's my thoughts on how we should be choosing creatures.
I agree but we have to look at what we have to work with in the 3CMC slot.
Here are the 3 drops that are reasonably suitable for the deck:
Predator Ooze: Is indestructible and adds three devotion is great against everything but white removal and black removal (-1/-1 counters and sacrificing) but he is a slow clock and does not do much on his own. He is not an offensive player, although he does make use of sometimes irrelevant Beast Within's.
Wistful Selkie: Draws a card and adds three devotion. Dies to every piece of removal. That is about it, does not do much on it's own.
Troll Ascetic: He avoids everything but Lilly and sweepers but with regeneration the sweepers can be staved off. His draw back is he only provides two devotion.
Kitchen Finks: He is a format staple we all know the value he can bring. I'm not sure why anyone would not run Finks.
I've been through all the three drop creatures and I do not think any others can fit or would work well.
What I've learned is PtE is not really that bad, especially if they use them up early, it does suck when your about to wave. Leatherback in my mind is the play because the one extra devotion can let you explode a little early. Troll would be second on my list as his ability to stay on the field is outstanding. (outside of witness of course but she's more engine than devoter)
I'm impressed with Nylea, God of the Hunt. She is a four mana conditional 6/6 indestructible. Fairly easy to turn one, finks, elf, sprawl and she's there. she has won me a few games and her buff keeps some our critters safe from bolt and the trample is kind of nice.
On the other hand, god of the forge has not been as great, in my build I'm not waving much so I'm cutting him to one.
Lets take a closer look at the three drops the deck can play.
Resiliency is what I'm going to test with this exercise. These creatures are the biggest contention among lists on the thread.
Ok, so first we need to list the three drops:
I feel it's important to note that these are all cards that have been suggested or played by people in this thread.
Now, let us list the most common removal in the format. These are spells that we will expect to see during a tournament of any size with competent opponents.
Now I'll break down what each 3-drop creature survives and dies to:
Wistful Selkie - Dies to all 4 common removal spells. 4/4
Kitchen Finks - Dies to all removal, however is really only removed by Path to Exile, so we're going to list it as only being removed by Path. We can do this because of the extra value we get from the 4 life it adds. 1/4
Eternal Witness - Dies to all common removal spells. The added value of this creature's ability can and does increase the playability. 4/4
Predator Ooze - Only removed by Path to Exile from common removal spells. 1/4
Courser of Kruphix - Removed by all common removal spells. Added value from abilities, more testing needed to decide if the trade-off is worth it. 4/4
Boggart Ram-Gang - Removed by all common removal spells. Added value from haste. 4/4
Troll Ascetic - Only removed by Supreme Verdict among common removal spells, and this is conditional upon mana availability. 1/4 and sometimes 0/4
Leatherback Baloth - Removed by Path, Abrupt Decay, and Supreme Verdict. 3/4
Compounding this information, we can safely come to the conclusion, barring additional information, that the most resilient creatures you can play for the deck at the 3 drop spot are Troll Ascetic, Kitchen Finks, and Predator Ooze.
Note, I did not rank Eternal Witness, Wistful Selkie, or Courser of Kruphix in this test for resiliency. I feel these cards add their own value and are certainly considerable even in a list that aims for resiliency of creatures and devotion enablers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can we use this information?
Well, when constructing our deck, we have a few other questions we need to ask. In the two drop spot, we have a few cards that all see play among the lists and are certainly an item of contention among us.
I know there are others, but these are the biggest contention items we have among our lists.
We need to combine these cards with our 3 drops to produce the most consistent lists. This can be done by breaking down which 3 drops are good with each 2 drop. I'll do that now. Important to note that all of these decisions also help decide which 1 drops you play and even which 4 drops you play. It's all a complex puzzle, and I'm sort of using this post as a way to explain to myself which cards I'd like to play.
Burning-Tree Emissary - Good with Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, Prophet of Kruphix, and Boggart Ram-Gang. Also impressive with other 2 drops like Elvish Visionary and Fertile Ground. Has synergy with 1-drops like Utopia Sprawl and Joraga Treespeaker. Counter-synergy with Strangleroot Geist.
Strangleroot Geist - Good with all three drops but counter-synergy with Burning-Tree Emissary.
Those two above are my personal conundrum. Because I don't play Fertile Ground and/or Voyaging Satyr, I'm always switching between these two.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so with all that information. I'm going to give you my base list right now. There are 8 free spots, and I'll change the 8 spots based off of the metagame that I see.
It really doesnt change too much about the examples though.
The cards that are good vs Verdict dont get worse because of clasm.
While fighting Wild Nacatl (which is what Im gonna assume by opposing creatures) is something Leatherback does well, Kitchen Finks and Troll and Ooze for that matter do a fine job of it as well.
Even against Tarmogoyf there are situations where Baloth and Troll are the same. Namely the wall stage...
I just like the non-clunkyness of BTE> Troll. They are very similar, one is better in combat and one is better vs. removal.
Courser has 4 toughness, so it doesn't die to bolt.
Troll Ascetic dies to Path and to being tapped out.
I don't think birds and Primal Commands are auto-includes in the deck. I like your thought process behind using birds though.
Troll cant die to path, hexproof. I almost always prefer a creature than primal command. I dont think it's viable and if someone goes the heavy creature route, dropping the fourth wave is a good idea. I'm also happy with only two Primetimes.
Ah, missed the hexproof. Honestly that card wasn't even on my radar, but I'm glad it is now. I'm not sure where it would fit though. Eternal Witness is really consistent and jams so well with the 4 abrupt decays I'm now running, and Baloths are such a beating.
The troll is nice in casual versions, but is underpowered in modern.
Removal on mana dorks is my concern. The troll can chump block maybe, but eats a pyroclasm right away.
In modern you need return right away. Draw a card, destroy a permanent...something. The troll (your name) was a great card 7 years ago. The Baloth can take out a lot of non-flyers in the format and survive. Soldier tokens, merfolk..lots of 2/2s and 3/3s this guy can munch on.
If they path to exile a visionary, great! They just burnt a card to take care of a creature that already served a lot of purpose. I rather that than have a turn 4 Craterhoof pathed!
Your facts on removal are correct, but are somewhat irrelevant in a deck like this.
I'm a fan of the Baloth. He's always been one of those cards just like Troll, that I've always wanted to work. However, your own judgement of Troll applies to Baloth. They're basically big, hard to remove creatures. We aren't playing them because we plan on swinging for the fence. They're there because they are resilient and add to devotion.
Look, I was on Ooze for the longest time and actually won a 30+ person tournament with 4 of him in the main-deck. It's hard to remove. After the early game beat down phase, our creatures have one of two options. First, they have to be resilient enough to dodge some if not all of the removal in the format, thus adding to devotion just sitting there. Second, they need to be able to fight and block the opponents creatures, which have by now out-classed us.
Leatherback is my boy, believe me, I love that guy. He draws the same amount of cards and destroys the same amount of permanents as Troll when entering the battlefield though, but Super-Troll is infinite-walling anything you throw at him in the later, grindy portion of the game. Not saying Leatherback doesn't do that same thing, I'd just rather have my namesake during most situations like that.
He is so man, he is mario, and I will tell my opponents such. As and when I bounce their permanent I will exclaim "MARIO" as though he were stomped on by our mighty Jace. Every time someone kill him I will give them 99 USD (not AUS!!!) because their lightning bolt should cost 100 DOLLARS...
Jace even made it into the Teenage Super Hero Mutant Ninja Hero Turtles.
My one question to do with this deck is does it care about counter magic?
I have been thinking about ways to possibly deal with that and the best way that comes to mind is a one drop from M11 called Autumn's Veil. This allows you to not worry about counter magic from a deck that is going to see more play due to Bitterblossom allowing feiries to become a deck again. However, it also helps you not worry about all the destructive magic that has been brought to the format over the past couple of expansions.
My one question to do with this deck is does it care about counter magic?
I have been thinking about ways to possibly deal with that and the best way that comes to mind is a one drop from M11 called Autumn's Veil. This allows you to not worry about counter magic from a deck that is going to see more play due to Bitterblossom allowing feiries to become a deck again. However, it also helps you not worry about all the destructive magic that has been brought to the format over the past couple of expansions.
Standard (KLD):UR Thermo-Thing Modern:UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters Legacy:UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves EDH:GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username
4 Arbor Elf
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Leatherback Baloth
2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Purphoros, God of the Forge
2 Primeval Titan
1 Rampaging Baloths
4 Strangleroot Geist
13 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Spells:
2 Mass Hysteria
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Genesis Wave
4 Utopia Sprawl
The mass hysteria is cheap haste, I tried Sarkhan and god would I love him to work but he just got stuck in my hand too many times and out of about twenty games, I did not cascade into him once, really bizarre as if I seen him, I saw both of him in my hand, very annoying. At least with hysteria I can turn my big boys into haste for one red mana. The gods kind of work with the rest of the creatures in the deck, giving trample and doing damage. A huge wave with 1 Rampaging Baloths coupled with god of the forge,should be an instant win.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Like the list. Have you tried ditching the BTEs and fleshing out your witnesses, titans, and baloths? Just curious to see what the difference is, and just how much the BTEs improved your game.
Obviously this is all theory crafting but it's my thoughts on how we should be choosing creatures.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
I agree but we have to look at what we have to work with in the 3CMC slot.
Here are the 3 drops that are reasonably suitable for the deck:
Predator Ooze: Is indestructible and adds three devotion is great against everything but white removal and black removal (-1/-1 counters and sacrificing) but he is a slow clock and does not do much on his own. He is not an offensive player, although he does make use of sometimes irrelevant Beast Within's.
Wistful Selkie: Draws a card and adds three devotion. Dies to every piece of removal. That is about it, does not do much on it's own.
Troll Ascetic: He avoids everything but Lilly and sweepers but with regeneration the sweepers can be staved off. His draw back is he only provides two devotion.
Kitchen Finks: He is a format staple we all know the value he can bring. I'm not sure why anyone would not run Finks.
I've been through all the three drop creatures and I do not think any others can fit or would work well.
What I've learned is PtE is not really that bad, especially if they use them up early, it does suck when your about to wave. Leatherback in my mind is the play because the one extra devotion can let you explode a little early. Troll would be second on my list as his ability to stay on the field is outstanding. (outside of witness of course but she's more engine than devoter)
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
On the other hand, god of the forge has not been as great, in my build I'm not waving much so I'm cutting him to one.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Resiliency is what I'm going to test with this exercise. These creatures are the biggest contention among lists on the thread.
Ok, so first we need to list the three drops:
I feel it's important to note that these are all cards that have been suggested or played by people in this thread.
Now, let us list the most common removal in the format. These are spells that we will expect to see during a tournament of any size with competent opponents.
Now I'll break down what each 3-drop creature survives and dies to:
Wistful Selkie - Dies to all 4 common removal spells. 4/4
Kitchen Finks - Dies to all removal, however is really only removed by Path to Exile, so we're going to list it as only being removed by Path. We can do this because of the extra value we get from the 4 life it adds. 1/4
Eternal Witness - Dies to all common removal spells. The added value of this creature's ability can and does increase the playability. 4/4
Predator Ooze - Only removed by Path to Exile from common removal spells. 1/4
Courser of Kruphix - Removed by all common removal spells. Added value from abilities, more testing needed to decide if the trade-off is worth it. 4/4
Boggart Ram-Gang - Removed by all common removal spells. Added value from haste. 4/4
Troll Ascetic - Only removed by Supreme Verdict among common removal spells, and this is conditional upon mana availability. 1/4 and sometimes 0/4
Leatherback Baloth - Removed by Path, Abrupt Decay, and Supreme Verdict. 3/4
Compounding this information, we can safely come to the conclusion, barring additional information, that the most resilient creatures you can play for the deck at the 3 drop spot are Troll Ascetic, Kitchen Finks, and Predator Ooze.
Note, I did not rank Eternal Witness, Wistful Selkie, or Courser of Kruphix in this test for resiliency. I feel these cards add their own value and are certainly considerable even in a list that aims for resiliency of creatures and devotion enablers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can we use this information?
Well, when constructing our deck, we have a few other questions we need to ask. In the two drop spot, we have a few cards that all see play among the lists and are certainly an item of contention among us.
2-drops of MGD:
I know there are others, but these are the biggest contention items we have among our lists.
We need to combine these cards with our 3 drops to produce the most consistent lists. This can be done by breaking down which 3 drops are good with each 2 drop. I'll do that now. Important to note that all of these decisions also help decide which 1 drops you play and even which 4 drops you play. It's all a complex puzzle, and I'm sort of using this post as a way to explain to myself which cards I'd like to play.
Burning-Tree Emissary - Good with Kitchen Finks, Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, Prophet of Kruphix, and Boggart Ram-Gang. Also impressive with other 2 drops like Elvish Visionary and Fertile Ground. Has synergy with 1-drops like Utopia Sprawl and Joraga Treespeaker. Counter-synergy with Strangleroot Geist.
Strangleroot Geist - Good with all three drops but counter-synergy with Burning-Tree Emissary.
Those two above are my personal conundrum. Because I don't play Fertile Ground and/or Voyaging Satyr, I'm always switching between these two.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so with all that information. I'm going to give you my base list right now. There are 8 free spots, and I'll change the 8 spots based off of the metagame that I see.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Stomping Ground
11 Forest
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Eternal Witness
3 Primeval Titan
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Genesis Wave
3 Primal Command
Right now, knowing what I know about the above information and without seeing my new metagame after the changes to the B/R list, those 8 cards are:
4 Troll Ascetic
1 Birds of Paradise (to cast my ten 3-drops easier)
3 Kitchen Finks
Troll Ascetic and Kitchen Finks are synergistic with Burning-Tree Emissary. They're also the most resilient 3-drops you can play in any metagame.
I'm done typing for now. Might add more later, but any input is welcome.
Troll Ascetic dies to Path and to being tapped out.
I don't think birds and Primal Commands are auto-includes in the deck. I like your thought process behind using birds though.
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
It really doesnt change too much about the examples though.
The cards that are good vs Verdict dont get worse because of clasm.
While fighting Wild Nacatl (which is what Im gonna assume by opposing creatures) is something Leatherback does well, Kitchen Finks and Troll and Ooze for that matter do a fine job of it as well.
Even against Tarmogoyf there are situations where Baloth and Troll are the same. Namely the wall stage...
I just like the non-clunkyness of BTE> Troll. They are very similar, one is better in combat and one is better vs. removal.
Troll cant die to path, hexproof. I almost always prefer a creature than primal command. I dont think it's viable and if someone goes the heavy creature route, dropping the fourth wave is a good idea. I'm also happy with only two Primetimes.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Removal on mana dorks is my concern. The troll can chump block maybe, but eats a pyroclasm right away.
In modern you need return right away. Draw a card, destroy a permanent...something. The troll (your name) was a great card 7 years ago. The Baloth can take out a lot of non-flyers in the format and survive. Soldier tokens, merfolk..lots of 2/2s and 3/3s this guy can munch on.
If they path to exile a visionary, great! They just burnt a card to take care of a creature that already served a lot of purpose. I rather that than have a turn 4 Craterhoof pathed!
Your facts on removal are correct, but are somewhat irrelevant in a deck like this.
Look, I was on Ooze for the longest time and actually won a 30+ person tournament with 4 of him in the main-deck. It's hard to remove. After the early game beat down phase, our creatures have one of two options. First, they have to be resilient enough to dodge some if not all of the removal in the format, thus adding to devotion just sitting there. Second, they need to be able to fight and block the opponents creatures, which have by now out-classed us.
Leatherback is my boy, believe me, I love that guy. He draws the same amount of cards and destroys the same amount of permanents as Troll when entering the battlefield though, but Super-Troll is infinite-walling anything you throw at him in the later, grindy portion of the game. Not saying Leatherback doesn't do that same thing, I'd just rather have my namesake during most situations like that.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Yes, but for a budget revision its not too bad. I'd use bane fire's instead of titans and not use garruk.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
10 Forest
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Arbor Elf
3 Eternal Witness
4 Acidic Slime
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Explore
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Primal Command
2 Plow Under
It gets to 5 mana. That is all it does. It's fragile because Lotus Cobra decks are fragile.
Just a different direction...
I have been thinking about ways to possibly deal with that and the best way that comes to mind is a one drop from M11 called Autumn's Veil. This allows you to not worry about counter magic from a deck that is going to see more play due to Bitterblossom allowing feiries to become a deck again. However, it also helps you not worry about all the destructive magic that has been brought to the format over the past couple of expansions.
I run 2x Vexing Shusher and 1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All in my main deck. Shusher is good for devotion value while also basically being Autumn's Veil on a stick. The trick is to remember to leave one mana floating after casting a huge Genesis Wave or entwined Tooth and Nail. Boseiju is one of the two lands I fetch when I get Primeval Titan on the board. I'll gladly pay the 2 life if I'm about to go big on a Genesis Wave or Tooth and Nail.
While I'm here, I may as well share my list...
3 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Eternal Witness
3 Primeval Titan
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Wistful Selkie
2 Fertile Ground
4 Genesis Wave
1 Primal Command
1 Rude Awakening
1 Tooth and Nail
4 Utopia Sprawl
15 Forest
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Modern: UR Delver, URB Delver, URB Control, G Elves, WB Soul Sisters
Legacy: UR Delver, URB Delver, G Elves
EDH: GWTrostani, Selesnya's Voice, UBOona, Queen of the Fae
Find me on MTGO and Twitter with the same username