I'm having problems against merfolk and gr tron. Merfolk is a close enough MU, but when they land a vial or cavern of souls the game is nearly unwinnable. Tron is just a terrible match up. I'm 0-6 against this deck. Every time I get close to pulling out a win, wurmcoil ruins my day. I'm going to swap my mutavaults for tectonic edges and add a pithing needle to my sideboard to help with these matches. Thinking about a single skullcrack in the side to help squeak out the win against wurmcoil engine . I also picked up a pair of sowing salt to mess around with. Any other ideas? My 75 is linked in my sig and up to date.
Sticking a Grim Lavamancer will usually win you the game against Merfolk, I usually side out Remand and Mana Leak games 2/3 in favor of burn spells like Magma Spray and Combust. Engineered Explosive is a house here. Spell Pierce and Spell Snare can be really good or awful, I would definitely keep Spell Pierce in on the play to potentially counter turn 1 Vial, but otherwise it's a pretty average card.
Against Tron, it is strictly can you do 20 damage before either a swing from Wurmcoil or Karn takes over the game? Turn 1 Delver or turn 2 Young Pyromancer are key here, as is disrupting turn 1/2 Maps/Sylvan Scrying and early Oblivion Stone. Admittedly, Vendilion Clique is much better here than Grim Lavamancer. Negate, Conterflux, and Spreading Seas/Blood Moon are key to winning this match up. I don't think it's a bad match up, you're free to shock yourself as much as you want here because your life total is irrelevant, Gitaxian Probe helps a ton in knowing when to overextend and when to hold back disruption.
Leading up to GP Minneapolis, I played a few games with UR Delver and decided I liked the deck, but it needed another aggressive one drop in order for the tempo plan to fully come together. I played too many games against twin where I was just treading water without a threat. So I added Goblin Guide and tweaked a few slots for GP Minneapolis where I day 2ed. Here's the list I played:
Goblin Guide was fantastic - the ability to consistently put pressure on the opponent from turn 1 is what this deck really needs. Without that, we're a somewhat faster version of tempo twin without the infinite combo, which just seems worse. The dismembers are necessary to force guide through against many decks. The life loss is sometimes a big problem, but the ability to kill Tarmogoyf, Wall of Roots, Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch, Celestial Colonnade, etc, makes it worth it. I'm not sure the correct number is 2 because the life loss is really bad sometimes. I discussed adding Watery Graves to offset this with a few people, but it's not clear that even saves you any life loss in the situations where it matters.
Not maindecking lavamancers was a huge punt, as was my choice of artifact destruction. I went 1-4 vs affinity between day 1 and day 2 (1-2 day 1, 0-2 day 2). Getting to 5 mana in time to overload Vandalblast just hardly ever happens, and Shattering Spree isn't really any better than Ancient Grudge since triple red or 4 mana for Snapcaster + replicate Spree is fairly hard to pull off in time, and the instant speed is really useful. Clique was fine, but Lavamancer is another early threat vs a lot of decks and, more importantly, is great against affinity and other decks with early creatures.
18 Lands also seemed pretty bad without any more cantrips or scry. I mulliganed an insane number of 0 land hands at the GP. I may have been just getting unlucky, but with 18 lands about 7% of your 7 card hands will have 0 lands. I also want 19 lands now because I want to make sure I can cast a new SB card: Molten Rain. With Goblin Guide in the deck, Stone Raining their land is much more attractive sense you're more likely to have pressure in order to take advantage of the pseudo time walk. UWR Control seems like a bad matchup, but maybe Molten Rain can help shore it up a bit. Blood Moon serves a similar purpose, but Molten Rain hits a somewhat different set of decks. Maybe they're redundant, but I'm not sure. I also have been trying out Twisted Image as a one-of after Owen Turtenwald's article advocating its use in tempo twin. It kills Signal Pest, Spellskite, mana dorks / Wall of Roots, Ornithopter and combines with bolt to kill Resto and Exarch as well as saves Young Pyro from Electrolyze. Of course often it's just u: draw a card, but this deck doesn't mind that too much. Here's the list I'm thinking about:
One less snapcaster is heresy, but I really like Lavamancer, and we can't play too many things that don't flip Delver. Magma Jet is a concession to this as well - adding a land and cutting a spell makes Delver flip less, so the extra scry helps a bit. I'm mostly brainstorming a bit with this list - I'm not even sure if we want Pyromancer over Goyf. Pyromancer does win games that nothing else can, but Goyf is obviously the more powerful beater on his own.
Its not about damage output, which goyf definitely wins, its about durability. Pyromancer dies to literally everything and forces you to play awkwardly just to ensure you get some sort of value out of it before he dies to lightning bolt. If they don't have a path or a terminate, chances are you now have the biggest threat on the board that they can't do anything about, outside of giving you a free 2 for 1. You say that against twin you felt like you need a threat to stick or youre durdling while they assemble the combo, serum visions+fetch turn one gives a bolt proof goyf on turn two and there really isnt a more ideal threat to have against them, same with UWR. Seems like goyf is better against out bad matchups, bolts/electrolyze/snapcaster, while pyromancer is better against the decks we prey upon, which are decks light in removal.
Its not about damage output, which goyf definitely wins, its about durability. Pyromancer dies to literally everything and forces you to play awkwardly just to ensure you get some sort of value out of it before he dies to lightning bolt. If they don't have a path or a terminate, chances are you now have the biggest threat on the board that they can't do anything about, outside of giving you a free 2 for 1. You say that against twin you felt like you need a threat to stick or youre durdling while they assemble the combo, serum visions+fetch turn one gives a bolt proof goyf on turn two and there really isnt a more ideal threat to have against them, same with UWR. Seems like goyf is better against out bad matchups, bolts/electrolyze/snapcaster, while pyromancer is better against the decks we prey upon, which are decks light in removal.
I think your reasoning is pretty spot on. Against Jund, UWR, and Twin Goyf looks a lot better. But it's also better against Tron and Scapeshift, since both decks rely so much on sweepers against us. AFAICT Pod is the only major player where Pyromancer is better, and it's probably not by much since it's so hard to get the tokens through on the ground anyway. Goyf just looks like the better threat. Heavier green also gives us access to Ooze out of the board vs a variety of decks - in particular on mtgo, I've been annoyed by all the red decks, and it gives us a proactive answer to graveyard shenanigans rather than something like Relic which doesn't pressure the opponent.
Has anyone considered Sygg, River Cutthroat in this deck as a 1-2 of? This deck has problems gaining card advantage and Sygg would help with that at a low mana cost.
Has anyone considered Sygg, River Cutthroat in this deck as a 1-2 of? This deck has problems gaining card advantage and Sygg would help with that at a low mana cost.
What would you cut? I like him in a Merfolk shell because 1 lord immediately brings him out of Bolt range and Spreading Seas usually guarantees his effect, but here we're usually playing the tempo game until we can start swinging unless we got a T1 Delver and flipped it. At that point we've already turned the corner and likely wouldn't need it. Being a permanent he also doesn't have synergy with Delver, Pyromancer, or Snapcaster. Those are each 4-ofs and the deck doesn't want more than 14 or so non land permanents, which means you have 2 slots to work with. Those 2 slots are often Grim Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, or a Runechanter's Pike for some folks. I think you'd have to compare Sygg to those cards to see if he's better.
@Spooly: How do you feel about the lack of Vapor Snag? I think that is one of the mvp's since you can bounce your own pyromancers or snaps, and getting another token btw...
And do you think there is no space for 2 cliques in the whole 75 of the second deckliste you posted?
There were times where I missed Vapor Snag, but honestly the ability to just kill a Goyf or Resto instead of buying a turn is a big deal, much bigger than bouncing our own guys. Bouncing Snapcaster or Young Pyro is cute, but I'm leaning away from Pyromancer right now anyway. That said, I do like 1 in the MD somewhere, but it's hard to find room. Cutting the Twisted Image for one is very reasonable. In a RUG Goyf build, it's easier to find slots because there is no longer a reason to run Gitaxian Probe.
Clique seemed fine but not great. I don't really like it MD since there are so many electrolyze decks (twin, UWR)and we have so many 1 toughness guys to begin with (though in RUG w/ Goyfs instead of Pyros, this needs to be reevaluated). Lavamancer has the same strike against it to be fair, but against Pod or Affinity, Lavamancer is hands down the winner. I also like Lavamancer because it gets some pressure down early, though obviously Goblin Guide or Delver would be preferred. I'm sure Clique is good in some matchups though and may warrant SB slots - vs Tron, pure combo decks, or decks packed with removal (but not Electrolyze). But I don't really know - in which matchups do you guys like Clique?
While I'm posting, here's a RUG list that's been bouncing around my head:
I like Thought Scour to fuel Lavamancer and Snapcaster, and it's also nice to EOT use Snapcaster to draw a card. Not to mention you can use it to mill yourself after seeing the top card of your deck from Delver or your opponent from Courser of Kruphix. This list is still trying Twisted Image, but it could easily be Thought Scour number 3, or rather it could have 2-3 Twisted Images. I don't really like any of the other 1 mana cantrips, but it is clear this deck needs 3-4 more on top of the Serum Visions. Maybe one of the Thought Scours should be a Shadow of Doubt, thought I don't want too many since we need enough 1 mana cantrips in order for the 19 land manabase to work. There are only 5 sorceries in this list, which maybe isn't enough for Goyf and motivates bringing back a probe or two. I'd like another Magma Jet somewhere to help flip Delver, but I'm not sure where. Maybe the Electrolyze should be Magma Jet, but I do like 'lyze as a one of. Another question is whether the forest is actually necessary.
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
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“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
I was responding to the comment that Goblin Guide can't hurt Tier 1 decks. It can and does. It also only puts lands in your opponent's hand, so it's card advantage effect is not as significant as most expect. That said, card advantage is a very good reason not to run it here. I also don't want to pull any instants or sorceries for creatures as this hurts how the deck functions.
Also, couldn't (and shouldn't) that logic be applied to Tarmogoyf as well? We don't run enchantments or artifacts (maindeck, at least), so we're not equipped to take optimal advantage of it and we have to run more lands to balance for the green splash, diluting our ability to hit the ground running. As Legacy has demonstrated, RUG Delver can definitely be a thing, but what else does the green splash net us? Hurting consistency to add four copies of a single card to the deck seems like a big risk to take, especially in a deck that currently runs on 19 lands and burns through its own graveyard, thereby crippling Tarmogoyf just through gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, a green splash has done wanders for Twin and could do wonders for this deck as well. Tarmogoyf is great! That said, what else does the green splash net this deck?
Sorry to seem overly harsh, but every thread seems to have a post (or twenty) trying to shoehorn Tarmogoyf in without considering how those decks operate. Goyf in means Grim Lavamancer out and even situations where we might not want to use Snapcaster Mage. It also means overhauling the manabase in a way that might make Vendilion Clique not possible to consistently play either.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Without artifacts and enchantments, goyf hits 4/5 very easily, simply by playing out your original gameplan. Casting cantrips, and killing creatures. In a deck playing mana leak, youre going to be putting a lot of enchantments and artifacts in the in the yard regardless of who's casting them, but honestly if my goyf hits 5 power thats generally icing at that point. If your gameplan is to kill them by turn 4-5, goyf pretty much never gets outclassed in those turns, meaning youre attacking every single turn as opposed to durdling making blockers with pyromancer or letting your opponent play around spellstutter. This deck has a kill you first mentality, and the only reason I could think of in regards to goyf not fitting here is because the pilot hasnt tested them. Its not just good, its blindingly obviously the best card in the deck kind of good. I dont think in a thousand games have I had to choose between exiling an instant or losing my goyf, instants are pretty much the thing that you never run out of, because your opponent is guaranteed to bring in instant speed removal against you. Of course the budget concerns are a totally valid reason not to have them. The RUG version still rocks Blood Moon and Shackles without any sort of issues so, why not?
As far as green extras, ancient grudge is far and away my favorite hate in the format, obstinate baloth is awesome in jund/ burn heavy meta, ive seen some number scavenging ooze maindeck, and Thrun was probably my favorite one of in the board when I played RUG as its so incredibly backbreaking against fair decks.
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
I don't think UR Delver has to care (much) about card advantage. There's a sort of continuum of tempo decks (partially because no one uses the word consistently!) - on one extreme you have decks that try to stick a threat or two early and protect it until the opponent is dead. The plan for the mid and long game is to finish them off with bolts or, if absolutely necessary, find another threat. On this extreme, card advantage is less important because the goal is to kill the opponent before the extra cards matter - you measure cards in turns bought (for your attackers) rather than raw cards. I think legacy Delver is the best example of this, but I don't know legacy very well. The original standard Delver lists are close to this, but they relied far less on raw speed and heavily on a Moorland Haunt + equipment endgame. On the other extreme you have decks that try less to come out of the gates guns blazing and more to control the opponent until they can stick a decent sized or difficult to deal with threat to protect. Here, card advantage is far more important since you're playing for a longer game, and thus can run the risk of being ground out by 2-1's. The tarmo-twin lists are pretty close to this extreme, especially post SB vs a lot of decks when they take out nearly all copies of Splinter Twin. Caw-Blade often was near this extreme, though it blended more with pure control decks since it often came packing wraths.
I agree that most Delver lists are closer to the slower side of the continuum, but I don't think they're very good. You're basically a slightly faster version of tempo-twin except instead of the infinite combo, you have turn one Delver. Turn one Delver is very good, and a strong reason to play the deck, but all those hands when you don't have turn 1 Delver, you're just on a worse version of the tempo-twin game plan - you're nickel and diming, just like them, but you have no chance of an infinite combo and probably no or less Cryptic Command. In return you get Young Pyromancer, which is occasionally nutty, but often just too fragile especially if your opponents didn't have to use removal on a one drop.
The goal with Goblin Guide is to pull the deck back toward the first end of the continuum - instead of being a worse version of tempo twin, we're on a much more aggressive version of the tempo game plan. It also subtly makes Pyromancer better since he's more likely to live when your opponent bolts your one drop first. The card disadvantage is a problem, but the deck is positioned to care less about that - it's far better at killing the opponent before it matters (much). Guide is a harder threat to protect and force damage through with than Delver, but it's usually easier than with Pyromancer by virtue of being a one drop and having haste.
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
I'm not ignorant. I played with Goblin Guide so many times in modern and he doesn't work. He gets blocked or killed all day while potentially giving your opponent a free card. I'm always happy to see a goblin guide played against me. If he's so damned good why does he only appear in burn decks, who are desperate for low mana cost damage spells? Even zoo has stopped playing him.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
Has anyone considered Sygg, River Cutthroat in this deck as a 1-2 of? This deck has problems gaining card advantage and Sygg would help with that at a low mana cost.
What would you cut? I like him in a Merfolk shell because 1 lord immediately brings him out of Bolt range and Spreading Seas usually guarantees his effect, but here we're usually playing the tempo game until we can start swinging unless we got a T1 Delver and flipped it. At that point we've already turned the corner and likely wouldn't need it. Being a permanent he also doesn't have synergy with Delver, Pyromancer, or Snapcaster. Those are each 4-ofs and the deck doesn't want more than 14 or so non land permanents, which means you have 2 slots to work with. Those 2 slots are often Grim Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, or a Runechanter's Pike for some folks. I think you'd have to compare Sygg to those cards to see if he's better.
Since I can't afford the fetchlands for Lavaman and don't want to have to buy V-Clique (especially with only 18 lands in my deck), I am testing him as a 1-2 of instead of those.
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
I'm not ignorant. I played with Goblin Guide so many times in modern and he doesn't work. He gets blocked or killed all day while potentially giving your opponent a free card. I'm always happy to see a goblin guide played against me. If he's so damned good why does he only appear in burn decks, who are desperate for low mana cost damage spells? Even zoo has stopped playing him.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
I agree with most of that except for the Zoo part. True that most Zoo decks don't play him. But I play Gruul Zoo, and given the options available for red and green creatures, Goblin Guide is one of the best out there.
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
I don't think UR Delver has to care (much) about card advantage. There's a sort of continuum of tempo decks (partially because no one uses the word consistently!) - on one extreme you have decks that try to stick a threat or two early and protect it until the opponent is dead. The plan for the mid and long game is to finish them off with bolts or, if absolutely necessary, find another threat. On this extreme, card advantage is less important because the goal is to kill the opponent before the extra cards matter - you measure cards in turns bought (for your attackers) rather than raw cards. I think legacy Delver is the best example of this, but I don't know legacy very well. The original standard Delver lists are close to this, but they relied far less on raw speed and heavily on a Moorland Haunt + equipment endgame. On the other extreme you have decks that try less to come out of the gates guns blazing and more to control the opponent until they can stick a decent sized or difficult to deal with threat to protect. Here, card advantage is far more important since you're playing for a longer game, and thus can run the risk of being ground out by 2-1's. The tarmo-twin lists are pretty close to this extreme, especially post SB vs a lot of decks when they take out nearly all copies of Splinter Twin. Caw-Blade often was near this extreme, though it blended more with pure control decks since it often came packing wraths.
I agree that most Delver lists are closer to the slower side of the continuum, but I don't think they're very good. You're basically a slightly faster version of tempo-twin except instead of the infinite combo, you have turn one Delver. Turn one Delver is very good, and a strong reason to play the deck, but all those hands when you don't have turn 1 Delver, you're just on a worse version of the tempo-twin game plan - you're nickel and diming, just like them, but you have no chance of an infinite combo and probably no or less Cryptic Command. In return you get Young Pyromancer, which is occasionally nutty, but often just too fragile especially if your opponents didn't have to use removal on a one drop.
The goal with Goblin Guide is to pull the deck back toward the first end of the continuum - instead of being a worse version of tempo twin, we're on a much more aggressive version of the tempo game plan. It also subtly makes Pyromancer better since he's more likely to live when your opponent bolts your one drop first. The card disadvantage is a problem, but the deck is positioned to care less about that - it's far better at killing the opponent before it matters (much). Guide is a harder threat to protect and force damage through with than Delver, but it's usually easier than with Pyromancer by virtue of being a one drop and having haste.
i duno if i understood this correctly, but adding goblin guide pretty much makes this deck UR burn. we might as well just sub all those draw spells for burn spells and flash them back with snapcaster mage....
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
I'm not ignorant. I played with Goblin Guide so many times in modern and he doesn't work. He gets blocked or killed all day while potentially giving your opponent a free card. I'm always happy to see a goblin guide played against me. If he's so damned good why does he only appear in burn decks, who are desperate for low mana cost damage spells? Even zoo has stopped playing him.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
I agree with most of that except for the Zoo part. True that most Zoo decks don't play him. But I play Gruul Zoo, and given the options available for red and green creatures, Goblin Guide is one of the best out there.
Yes... and Gruul Zoo is no longer a deck now that Wild Nacatl is in the format.
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
I was responding to the comment that Goblin Guide can't hurt Tier 1 decks. It can and does. It also only puts lands in your opponent's hand, so it's card advantage effect is not as significant as most expect. That said, card advantage is a very good reason not to run it here. I also don't want to pull any instants or sorceries for creatures as this hurts how the deck functions.
Also, couldn't (and shouldn't) that logic be applied to Tarmogoyf as well? We don't run enchantments or artifacts (maindeck, at least), so we're not equipped to take optimal advantage of it and we have to run more lands to balance for the green splash, diluting our ability to hit the ground running. As Legacy has demonstrated, RUG Delver can definitely be a thing, but what else does the green splash net us? Hurting consistency to add four copies of a single card to the deck seems like a big risk to take, especially in a deck that currently runs on 19 lands and burns through its own graveyard, thereby crippling Tarmogoyf just through gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, a green splash has done wanders for Twin and could do wonders for this deck as well. Tarmogoyf is great! That said, what else does the green splash net this deck?
Sorry to seem overly harsh, but every thread seems to have a post (or twenty) trying to shoehorn Tarmogoyf in without considering how those decks operate. Goyf in means Grim Lavamancer out and even situations where we might not want to use Snapcaster Mage. It also means overhauling the manabase in a way that might make Vendilion Clique not possible to consistently play either.
Is it worth it?
RUG delver is a thing in legacy because of the blue cards you can play with and the existence of nimble mongoose. And if you're playing geese why not throw in goyf? I think splashing green for goyf just dilutes the deck. Young pyromancer is the better threat for this shell. It allows us more consistency. We don't HAVE to run probe for pyro, we GET to. The information is pretty valuable for a deck like this. Guide is good for information purposes and the lands they draw don't usually seem to matter. However guide is bad because we seriously diminish our odds of flipping delver.
That said, a card I am looking to cut is in fact delver. He demands so much of your deck construction while still being a bit too unreliable for my taste. I just have this love/hate relationship with the card. I think there is a UR based aggro or tempo deck out there that doesn't need delver bossing the other cards around.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
I really wouldn't run goblin guides. They are pretty terrible against any established deck.
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
I'm not ignorant. I played with Goblin Guide so many times in modern and he doesn't work. He gets blocked or killed all day while potentially giving your opponent a free card. I'm always happy to see a goblin guide played against me. If he's so damned good why does he only appear in burn decks, who are desperate for low mana cost damage spells? Even zoo has stopped playing him.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
I agree with most of that except for the Zoo part. True that most Zoo decks don't play him. But I play Gruul Zoo, and given the options available for red and green creatures, Goblin Guide is one of the best out there.
Yes... and Gruul Zoo is no longer a deck now that Wild Nacatl is in the format.
There are pros and cons with splashing white. Pros: you have access to a lot more cards. Cons: more life loss from fetchlands and shocklands, and you make your manabase more vulnerable to the likes of Blood Moon, Molten Rain, and Spreading Seas. While I acknowledge the strengths of splashing white for the additional cards and full-powered Wild Nacatl, I do not think one is undoubtedly better than the other.
Hi, I am new to the thread and have been playing UR Delver (pyromancer version) for some months now. A friend and I are going to a two headed giant modern tournament soon, and we don't know which of the decks we have available pairs up best with UR Delver.
We can choose between Goryo's Vengeance deck, a Soul Sisters and a Merfolk (this last would mean changing a few blue cards though)
I don't know if it is correct to post this here, but I have been unable to find a modern multiplayer thread.
Hi, I am new to the thread and have been playing UR Delver (pyromancer version) for some months now. A friend and I are going to a two headed giant modern tournament soon, and we don't know which of the decks we have available pairs up best with UR Delver.
We can choose between Goryo's Vengeance deck, a Soul Sisters and a Merfolk (this last would mean changing a few blue cards though)
I don't know if it is correct to post this here, but I have been unable to find a modern multiplayer thread.
Any suggestions would be very welcomed
Goryo's Vengeance sounds good, as Delver has the counterspell protection to help protect the combo.
What is the reason behind not splashing green for goyfs over pyros in this deck? Tried looking for the answer to this a few pages back but can't find it.
I feel you. One toughness spread over several creatures (and also found in delver and snapscaster) gives the deck a weakness to a certain kind of removal and goyf would throw in a different angle.
However there are many reasons to keep the deck UR only.
Running many fetches can lower the effectiveness of Serum Visions and the deck pretty much needs it be in the right spot between mana flooded and mana screwed.
The deck sometimes run Blood Moon in the sideboard.. not sure if that's a good reason however.
Gitaxian Probe also help the deck run smoother and works well with YP and Delver (running less lands). I suspect adding green means getting rid of Probe because you run more shocks and more fetches. (and you would not need Probe for YP)
I'm sure a version with green would work to some degree but I suspect it would slow down the deck a little bit.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
I think 2 mana is a lot and the only issue I can see with this card is that it requires you to have something on the board. If you do however, it allows you to play around so much. It's a counter if they try to kill your clock, it's reach via giant growth of unsummon.. Like Vapor Snag, the unsummon doubles as (subpar but still) protection. (suppose the threat doesn't target, making hexproof useless). I guess it would be better than Mana Leak wherever a counter is less interesting (vs aether vial, pod, when stuff is already on board.)
I think it's worth a try but it's still a conditional spell as it doesn't do much if you don't have anything on the board.
Against Tron, it is strictly can you do 20 damage before either a swing from Wurmcoil or Karn takes over the game? Turn 1 Delver or turn 2 Young Pyromancer are key here, as is disrupting turn 1/2 Maps/Sylvan Scrying and early Oblivion Stone. Admittedly, Vendilion Clique is much better here than Grim Lavamancer. Negate, Conterflux, and Spreading Seas/Blood Moon are key to winning this match up. I don't think it's a bad match up, you're free to shock yourself as much as you want here because your life total is irrelevant, Gitaxian Probe helps a ton in knowing when to overextend and when to hold back disruption.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromaster
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
1 Electrolyze
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
2 Mountain
1 Shattering Spree
1 Vandalblast
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Spellskite
2 Combust
2 Blood Moon
2 Counterflux
2 Threads of Disloyalty
Goblin Guide was fantastic - the ability to consistently put pressure on the opponent from turn 1 is what this deck really needs. Without that, we're a somewhat faster version of tempo twin without the infinite combo, which just seems worse. The dismembers are necessary to force guide through against many decks. The life loss is sometimes a big problem, but the ability to kill Tarmogoyf, Wall of Roots, Restoration Angel, Deceiver Exarch, Celestial Colonnade, etc, makes it worth it. I'm not sure the correct number is 2 because the life loss is really bad sometimes. I discussed adding Watery Graves to offset this with a few people, but it's not clear that even saves you any life loss in the situations where it matters.
Not maindecking lavamancers was a huge punt, as was my choice of artifact destruction. I went 1-4 vs affinity between day 1 and day 2 (1-2 day 1, 0-2 day 2). Getting to 5 mana in time to overload Vandalblast just hardly ever happens, and Shattering Spree isn't really any better than Ancient Grudge since triple red or 4 mana for Snapcaster + replicate Spree is fairly hard to pull off in time, and the instant speed is really useful. Clique was fine, but Lavamancer is another early threat vs a lot of decks and, more importantly, is great against affinity and other decks with early creatures.
18 Lands also seemed pretty bad without any more cantrips or scry. I mulliganed an insane number of 0 land hands at the GP. I may have been just getting unlucky, but with 18 lands about 7% of your 7 card hands will have 0 lands. I also want 19 lands now because I want to make sure I can cast a new SB card: Molten Rain. With Goblin Guide in the deck, Stone Raining their land is much more attractive sense you're more likely to have pressure in order to take advantage of the pseudo time walk. UWR Control seems like a bad matchup, but maybe Molten Rain can help shore it up a bit. Blood Moon serves a similar purpose, but Molten Rain hits a somewhat different set of decks. Maybe they're redundant, but I'm not sure. I also have been trying out Twisted Image as a one-of after Owen Turtenwald's article advocating its use in tempo twin. It kills Signal Pest, Spellskite, mana dorks / Wall of Roots, Ornithopter and combines with bolt to kill Resto and Exarch as well as saves Young Pyro from Electrolyze. Of course often it's just u: draw a card, but this deck doesn't mind that too much. Here's the list I'm thinking about:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Twisted Image
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Dismember
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Magma Jet
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Breeding Pool
1 Shivan Reef
2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Blood Moon
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite
2 Combust
2 Counterflux
One less snapcaster is heresy, but I really like Lavamancer, and we can't play too many things that don't flip Delver. Magma Jet is a concession to this as well - adding a land and cutting a spell makes Delver flip less, so the extra scry helps a bit. I'm mostly brainstorming a bit with this list - I'm not even sure if we want Pyromancer over Goyf. Pyromancer does win games that nothing else can, but Goyf is obviously the more powerful beater on his own.
I think your reasoning is pretty spot on. Against Jund, UWR, and Twin Goyf looks a lot better. But it's also better against Tron and Scapeshift, since both decks rely so much on sweepers against us. AFAICT Pod is the only major player where Pyromancer is better, and it's probably not by much since it's so hard to get the tokens through on the ground anyway. Goyf just looks like the better threat. Heavier green also gives us access to Ooze out of the board vs a variety of decks - in particular on mtgo, I've been annoyed by all the red decks, and it gives us a proactive answer to graveyard shenanigans rather than something like Relic which doesn't pressure the opponent.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
What would you cut? I like him in a Merfolk shell because 1 lord immediately brings him out of Bolt range and Spreading Seas usually guarantees his effect, but here we're usually playing the tempo game until we can start swinging unless we got a T1 Delver and flipped it. At that point we've already turned the corner and likely wouldn't need it. Being a permanent he also doesn't have synergy with Delver, Pyromancer, or Snapcaster. Those are each 4-ofs and the deck doesn't want more than 14 or so non land permanents, which means you have 2 slots to work with. Those 2 slots are often Grim Lavamancer, Vendilion Clique, or a Runechanter's Pike for some folks. I think you'd have to compare Sygg to those cards to see if he's better.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
There were times where I missed Vapor Snag, but honestly the ability to just kill a Goyf or Resto instead of buying a turn is a big deal, much bigger than bouncing our own guys. Bouncing Snapcaster or Young Pyro is cute, but I'm leaning away from Pyromancer right now anyway. That said, I do like 1 in the MD somewhere, but it's hard to find room. Cutting the Twisted Image for one is very reasonable. In a RUG Goyf build, it's easier to find slots because there is no longer a reason to run Gitaxian Probe.
Clique seemed fine but not great. I don't really like it MD since there are so many electrolyze decks (twin, UWR)and we have so many 1 toughness guys to begin with (though in RUG w/ Goyfs instead of Pyros, this needs to be reevaluated). Lavamancer has the same strike against it to be fair, but against Pod or Affinity, Lavamancer is hands down the winner. I also like Lavamancer because it gets some pressure down early, though obviously Goblin Guide or Delver would be preferred. I'm sure Clique is good in some matchups though and may warrant SB slots - vs Tron, pure combo decks, or decks packed with removal (but not Electrolyze). But I don't really know - in which matchups do you guys like Clique?
While I'm posting, here's a RUG list that's been bouncing around my head:
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour
1 Twisted Image
1 Magma Jet
1 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Dismember
1 Vapor Snag
3 Mana Leak
3 Remand
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
2 Breeding Pool
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
I like Thought Scour to fuel Lavamancer and Snapcaster, and it's also nice to EOT use Snapcaster to draw a card. Not to mention you can use it to mill yourself after seeing the top card of your deck from Delver or your opponent from Courser of Kruphix. This list is still trying Twisted Image, but it could easily be Thought Scour number 3, or rather it could have 2-3 Twisted Images. I don't really like any of the other 1 mana cantrips, but it is clear this deck needs 3-4 more on top of the Serum Visions. Maybe one of the Thought Scours should be a Shadow of Doubt, thought I don't want too many since we need enough 1 mana cantrips in order for the 19 land manabase to work. There are only 5 sorceries in this list, which maybe isn't enough for Goyf and motivates bringing back a probe or two. I'd like another Magma Jet somewhere to help flip Delver, but I'm not sure where. Maybe the Electrolyze should be Magma Jet, but I do like 'lyze as a one of. Another question is whether the forest is actually necessary.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
You're kidding, right? It's one of the single best damage-output cards in red. It almost always gets 4 damage or more out of R while usually showing 2 of your opponent's draws. Saying it isn't worthy of competitive play is outright ignorant. Its usefulness tapers off as the game progresses, but this deck isn't built for the long game, it's built for brutal, explosive, quick games.
Does Goblin Guide belong in this deck? Never thought about it before, but it's definitely a solid card.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Goblin Guide is very good for reasons you stated, for Zoo. Zoo doesn't care about giving your opponent card advantage, in return for swinging for 2 each turn as well as seeing your opponent's draws. UR Delver, on the other hand, does care about card advantage. Let's say your opponent's next 2 draws are a land and a removal spell. So instead of your opponent just drawing just another land next turn, he or she is drawing another land AND a removal spell. In summary, Goblin Guide is good for Zoo, but bad for UR Delver.
I was responding to the comment that Goblin Guide can't hurt Tier 1 decks. It can and does. It also only puts lands in your opponent's hand, so it's card advantage effect is not as significant as most expect. That said, card advantage is a very good reason not to run it here. I also don't want to pull any instants or sorceries for creatures as this hurts how the deck functions.
Also, couldn't (and shouldn't) that logic be applied to Tarmogoyf as well? We don't run enchantments or artifacts (maindeck, at least), so we're not equipped to take optimal advantage of it and we have to run more lands to balance for the green splash, diluting our ability to hit the ground running. As Legacy has demonstrated, RUG Delver can definitely be a thing, but what else does the green splash net us? Hurting consistency to add four copies of a single card to the deck seems like a big risk to take, especially in a deck that currently runs on 19 lands and burns through its own graveyard, thereby crippling Tarmogoyf just through gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, a green splash has done wanders for Twin and could do wonders for this deck as well. Tarmogoyf is great! That said, what else does the green splash net this deck?
Sorry to seem overly harsh, but every thread seems to have a post (or twenty) trying to shoehorn Tarmogoyf in without considering how those decks operate. Goyf in means Grim Lavamancer out and even situations where we might not want to use Snapcaster Mage. It also means overhauling the manabase in a way that might make Vendilion Clique not possible to consistently play either.
Is it worth it?
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
As far as green extras, ancient grudge is far and away my favorite hate in the format, obstinate baloth is awesome in jund/ burn heavy meta, ive seen some number scavenging ooze maindeck, and Thrun was probably my favorite one of in the board when I played RUG as its so incredibly backbreaking against fair decks.
I don't think UR Delver has to care (much) about card advantage. There's a sort of continuum of tempo decks (partially because no one uses the word consistently!) - on one extreme you have decks that try to stick a threat or two early and protect it until the opponent is dead. The plan for the mid and long game is to finish them off with bolts or, if absolutely necessary, find another threat. On this extreme, card advantage is less important because the goal is to kill the opponent before the extra cards matter - you measure cards in turns bought (for your attackers) rather than raw cards. I think legacy Delver is the best example of this, but I don't know legacy very well. The original standard Delver lists are close to this, but they relied far less on raw speed and heavily on a Moorland Haunt + equipment endgame. On the other extreme you have decks that try less to come out of the gates guns blazing and more to control the opponent until they can stick a decent sized or difficult to deal with threat to protect. Here, card advantage is far more important since you're playing for a longer game, and thus can run the risk of being ground out by 2-1's. The tarmo-twin lists are pretty close to this extreme, especially post SB vs a lot of decks when they take out nearly all copies of Splinter Twin. Caw-Blade often was near this extreme, though it blended more with pure control decks since it often came packing wraths.
I agree that most Delver lists are closer to the slower side of the continuum, but I don't think they're very good. You're basically a slightly faster version of tempo-twin except instead of the infinite combo, you have turn one Delver. Turn one Delver is very good, and a strong reason to play the deck, but all those hands when you don't have turn 1 Delver, you're just on a worse version of the tempo-twin game plan - you're nickel and diming, just like them, but you have no chance of an infinite combo and probably no or less Cryptic Command. In return you get Young Pyromancer, which is occasionally nutty, but often just too fragile especially if your opponents didn't have to use removal on a one drop.
The goal with Goblin Guide is to pull the deck back toward the first end of the continuum - instead of being a worse version of tempo twin, we're on a much more aggressive version of the tempo game plan. It also subtly makes Pyromancer better since he's more likely to live when your opponent bolts your one drop first. The card disadvantage is a problem, but the deck is positioned to care less about that - it's far better at killing the opponent before it matters (much). Guide is a harder threat to protect and force damage through with than Delver, but it's usually easier than with Pyromancer by virtue of being a one drop and having haste.
I'm not ignorant. I played with Goblin Guide so many times in modern and he doesn't work. He gets blocked or killed all day while potentially giving your opponent a free card. I'm always happy to see a goblin guide played against me. If he's so damned good why does he only appear in burn decks, who are desperate for low mana cost damage spells? Even zoo has stopped playing him.
Also, as for the question about what else green brings other than goyf and grudge flashback, Simic Charm is a potent tempo spell that does everything you need from an instant.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Since I can't afford the fetchlands for Lavaman and don't want to have to buy V-Clique (especially with only 18 lands in my deck), I am testing him as a 1-2 of instead of those.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I agree with most of that except for the Zoo part. True that most Zoo decks don't play him. But I play Gruul Zoo, and given the options available for red and green creatures, Goblin Guide is one of the best out there.
i duno if i understood this correctly, but adding goblin guide pretty much makes this deck UR burn. we might as well just sub all those draw spells for burn spells and flash them back with snapcaster mage....
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Yes... and Gruul Zoo is no longer a deck now that Wild Nacatl is in the format.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
RUG delver is a thing in legacy because of the blue cards you can play with and the existence of nimble mongoose. And if you're playing geese why not throw in goyf? I think splashing green for goyf just dilutes the deck. Young pyromancer is the better threat for this shell. It allows us more consistency. We don't HAVE to run probe for pyro, we GET to. The information is pretty valuable for a deck like this. Guide is good for information purposes and the lands they draw don't usually seem to matter. However guide is bad because we seriously diminish our odds of flipping delver.
That said, a card I am looking to cut is in fact delver. He demands so much of your deck construction while still being a bit too unreliable for my taste. I just have this love/hate relationship with the card. I think there is a UR based aggro or tempo deck out there that doesn't need delver bossing the other cards around.
There are pros and cons with splashing white. Pros: you have access to a lot more cards. Cons: more life loss from fetchlands and shocklands, and you make your manabase more vulnerable to the likes of Blood Moon, Molten Rain, and Spreading Seas. While I acknowledge the strengths of splashing white for the additional cards and full-powered Wild Nacatl, I do not think one is undoubtedly better than the other.
We can choose between Goryo's Vengeance deck, a Soul Sisters and a Merfolk (this last would mean changing a few blue cards though)
I don't know if it is correct to post this here, but I have been unable to find a modern multiplayer thread.
Any suggestions would be very welcomed
Goryo's Vengeance sounds good, as Delver has the counterspell protection to help protect the combo.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
I feel you. One toughness spread over several creatures (and also found in delver and snapscaster) gives the deck a weakness to a certain kind of removal and goyf would throw in a different angle.
However there are many reasons to keep the deck UR only.
Running many fetches can lower the effectiveness of Serum Visions and the deck pretty much needs it be in the right spot between mana flooded and mana screwed.
The deck sometimes run Blood Moon in the sideboard.. not sure if that's a good reason however.
Gitaxian Probe also help the deck run smoother and works well with YP and Delver (running less lands). I suspect adding green means getting rid of Probe because you run more shocks and more fetches. (and you would not need Probe for YP)
I'm sure a version with green would work to some degree but I suspect it would slow down the deck a little bit.
I think 2 mana is a lot and the only issue I can see with this card is that it requires you to have something on the board. If you do however, it allows you to play around so much. It's a counter if they try to kill your clock, it's reach via giant growth of unsummon.. Like Vapor Snag, the unsummon doubles as (subpar but still) protection. (suppose the threat doesn't target, making hexproof useless). I guess it would be better than Mana Leak wherever a counter is less interesting (vs aether vial, pod, when stuff is already on board.)
I think it's worth a try but it's still a conditional spell as it doesn't do much if you don't have anything on the board.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay