Is there any thought or consenus on the use of Planeswalkers outside of Jace(s)?
I've played around with Ral Zarek and Ashiok, myself. Ral is nice because it's one extra mana each turn (more instants, or earlier cruel) or a bolt.
Ashiok is more swingy and less useful, but exile-mill and extra bodies is helpful. In reality, I like that that it is a decent planeswalker at 3 cmc. If it sticks it'll give me value, but otherwise I can drop it on turn 5 or 6 when I can still leave counter mana up, but bait out a counter from my opponent. But large downsides of course. If I'm not winning it's a very dead card, and if I'm playing against control I might not get any creatures off the top(although I did once steal a snapcaster from RWU... that was sweet).
I also considered the 5 cmc Jace with "0: mill 10" as a SB wincon if I'm playing something that's not letting my manlands through, but haven't implemented it.
Since modern season is starting, i'd like to start it with a bang so Grixis control. Are the lists on the first page good for starters?
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From Supernatural:
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
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The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
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I know there are some manabase issues but atm I can't efford fetchlands so I'm stuck with this without many problems, maybe there will be a time where you draw 2-3 lands in a row but it's rare to be mana flooded cause there are 11 cards that makes you draw(without snap or think twice fb)+ 2 mystical teachings.
Previously the deck runned 3 shadow of doubt and 3 terminate with the 2 mystical teachings in the board. Swapped them maindeck and now it's pure fun.
Game 1 I tend to play like a simple draw-go with teachings backup but in g2 and 3 the deck becomes a real teachings cruel control cause the side is so wide that i can board in all the hate i want and tutor them with teachings or grab them by drawing like a crazy at the end of every turn.
One thought about sudden spoiling/magmaquake vs aggro or combo like twin or storm(etw) and even infect: They're really good, not to mention a snapback on those cards, simply evil!
In conclusion the deck is fairly simple to use: pure draw-go, only instants(cruel ruins this, but it's a strong finisher and the namesake of the deck).The sideboard is a collection of utility spells to win that matchup ore just to improve the teachings tricks.
I'm looking for suggests so tell me what you think keeping in mind that I can't pute huge changes to the manabase atm.
I'll be finishing putting together the list (minus 1 cryptic, but I can proxy that until I get mine later this week) and let you know. I figure an instant speed removal ala Terminate with extra oomph against planeswalkers couldn't be bad. The mana might get a little odd though.
Yes guys, magmaquake is simply nasty: teachings eot grabbing magmaquake and gg to pw and creatures in their turn. It's a mininum 3 damage to all the opponent board except flying creatures and if it's followed by a suffer the past in their next eot it's simply evil
Early liliana can be dealt by bolt or a simple counter.(I'm currently testing 4 negate instead of leaks cause creatures can be easily dealt and leak lategame is not effective most of the times unless the opponent almost taps out himself)
Some interesting choices main and board. Full 4 Spell Snare and a singleton Thoughtseize. I know Chromatic Lantern is an out for a resolved Blood Moon. But I have no idea what Commandeer is for.
I did a bunch of testing against UWR resto-kiki control, jund, pod, and affinity.
I'll break it down.
Against UWR, i struggled in both pre and post board. Preboard, my issue was that I could win every counter war, but then I always ended up not having anything to follow up with. There was a turn where we each had 10+ land in play, he was tapped out and I just had nothing. The longer the game goes, the less control I felt I had. We have no equivalent of Sphinx's Revelation unfortunately. Games 2 and 3 went better as he had no removal for the young pyromancers, but then they'd quickly get outclassed by Resto and Wall of Omens. I just couldn't draw what I needed when I needed.
Against Jund, I had draw issues, but I came out ahead each game. Heroes' downfall really came through in this one. Jund can't beat a Cruel Ultimatum, but i'm not entirely sure we can beat a Liliana followed by a Pyromaster.
Against Pod, when I ran out of removal, I lost. That was about it. Most of the games went well, but if I couldn't close it fast enough, they tended to just get ahead. It's crazy important not to let a birthing pod resolve.
Affinity was bad. I struggled. The only good game I had was when I kept a 3 bolt, mana leak hand on the play.
I think my sideboarding was off at times, but my issue with this deck seems to just being able to draw at the right times.
I used to, was a pet card of mine, there are two comparable cards to bsz; Forbidden Alchemy and Cruel Ultimatum
I prefer alchemy since it's always better in the earlier game, I would rather dig four deep than draw 2 on t5.
On t7 + I would always rather just have a cruel ultimatum
The only time bsz would practically be more effective than either is on t6, I just prefer the flexibility and power level of the other 2. Draw spells with flashback are underplayed in this format imo, especially with spot discard, lili, and the inherent flexibility they give you when paired with reactionary instants at (or around) the same cmc
UWR and other control variants should be easy imo, they can't handle the spot discard, the eot snapcaster harassment, and cruel ultimatum all at the same time. Just familiarize yourself moreso with the mu and it should be an easy win
Against Affinity I think we have a slight advantage at least, matchup familiarity is key though.
I just want to stress the importance of reliably disrupting your opponent's gameplan in the first few turns. Spell Snare and/or IOK are a must alongside lightning bolt, they are both universally strong against the field and help pave the way for an ultimatum. Personally, I prefer IOK since it gives you information and helps you form your gameplan while it also deals with way more problematic cards than snare, also enables some more flexibility with the bounce mode of cc. Snare is better if you can't afford 8 fetches since it's easier on the mana base (when taking subsequent turns into consideration, the explanation would be a long write-up), and it's better in some scenarios (like your opponent just playing in top deck mode).
I used it as a one-of whenever I first started running Cruel Control but I ended up cutting it. It just didn't dig enough and didn't provide enough value for the cost. I pretty much always prefer Cruel Ultimatum because it's just better value.
However, feel free to test it. Perhaps you are running a build that can utilize it better!
So far it has helped when I'm in top deck mode. I never lied alchemy, it seems to never like me as well. Like when I flip over the spell I need and 3 lands I wanted as well.
aether whirlwind is the first card from m15 that might fit well into the build. Very similar to consume the meek and is tutorable with teachings. Works with indestructable creatures in Tron decks too.
I've played around with Ral Zarek and Ashiok, myself. Ral is nice because it's one extra mana each turn (more instants, or earlier cruel) or a bolt.
Ashiok is more swingy and less useful, but exile-mill and extra bodies is helpful. In reality, I like that that it is a decent planeswalker at 3 cmc. If it sticks it'll give me value, but otherwise I can drop it on turn 5 or 6 when I can still leave counter mana up, but bait out a counter from my opponent. But large downsides of course. If I'm not winning it's a very dead card, and if I'm playing against control I might not get any creatures off the top(although I did once steal a snapcaster from RWU... that was sweet).
I also considered the 5 cmc Jace with "0: mill 10" as a SB wincon if I'm playing something that's not letting my manlands through, but haven't implemented it.
Any other thoughts or opinions on planeswalkers?
Edit: no one was able to get the list of the cruel deck that made d2? wish these things were posted on the mothership somewhere
Also, how does this deck stack up against pod variants?
If you want a third option for a competiitve control deck, there is always Blue Moon.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I really want to play this list. What would you suggest for a replacement for the 2nd Clique?
ALso, does this deck struggle against planeswalkers?
Sam: a demon summoning spell ? why?
Lucifer: to summon a demon (auto censorship here)
====
The Wizard of Oz: A juvenile delinquent runs away from home, kills the first person she meets in a foreign land, robs her corpse, then promptly forms a gang with three complete strangers in order to kill again.
====
with R i'll burn you and with B youll'be maimed
4 lightning bolt
4 mana leak
4 electrolyze
3 cryptic command
3 spell snare
2 mystical teachings
2 terminate
2 shadow of doubt
2 cruel ultimatum
2 consume the meek
2 think twice
4 creeping tar pit
4 island
3 darkslick shores
2 sulfur falls
2 swamp
2 mountain
2 watery grave
2 steam vents
1 drowned catacomb
1 dragonskull summit
1 blood crypt
1 graven cairns
1 cascade bluffs
1 magmaquake
1 dispel
1 negate
1 sudden spoiling
1 suffer the past
1 sowing salt
1 teferi, mage of zhalfir
1 engineered explosives
1 volcanic fallout
1 echoing truth
1 rakdos charm
1 shadow of doubt
1 terminate
1 butterskull
Ok so this is my current version of CC.
I know there are some manabase issues but atm I can't efford fetchlands so I'm stuck with this without many problems, maybe there will be a time where you draw 2-3 lands in a row but it's rare to be mana flooded cause there are 11 cards that makes you draw(without snap or think twice fb)+ 2 mystical teachings.
Previously the deck runned 3 shadow of doubt and 3 terminate with the 2 mystical teachings in the board. Swapped them maindeck and now it's pure fun.
Game 1 I tend to play like a simple draw-go with teachings backup but in g2 and 3 the deck becomes a real teachings cruel control cause the side is so wide that i can board in all the hate i want and tutor them with teachings or grab them by drawing like a crazy at the end of every turn.
One thought about sudden spoiling/magmaquake vs aggro or combo like twin or storm(etw) and even infect: They're really good, not to mention a snapback on those cards, simply evil!
In conclusion the deck is fairly simple to use: pure draw-go, only instants(cruel ruins this, but it's a strong finisher and the namesake of the deck).The sideboard is a collection of utility spells to win that matchup ore just to improve the teachings tricks.
I'm looking for suggests so tell me what you think keeping in mind that I can't pute huge changes to the manabase atm.
Sorry if I made some grammar mistakes!
I missed playtesting tonight, but I managed to pick up my 4th Cryptic (next is the clique).
What's your usual SB plan? The I'm changing the thoughtseize and Shadow of doubt(can't find any in this area at all) for 2 spell pierces
Early liliana can be dealt by bolt or a simple counter.(I'm currently testing 4 negate instead of leaks cause creatures can be easily dealt and leak lategame is not effective most of the times unless the opponent almost taps out himself)
What about Beseech the Queen? I have really liked it in testing. Damnation and Cruel Ultimatum are the most common things to grab for me.
Cruel Control
Some interesting choices main and board. Full 4 Spell Snare and a singleton Thoughtseize. I know Chromatic Lantern is an out for a resolved Blood Moon. But I have no idea what Commandeer is for.
I did a bunch of testing against UWR resto-kiki control, jund, pod, and affinity.
I'll break it down.
Against UWR, i struggled in both pre and post board. Preboard, my issue was that I could win every counter war, but then I always ended up not having anything to follow up with. There was a turn where we each had 10+ land in play, he was tapped out and I just had nothing. The longer the game goes, the less control I felt I had. We have no equivalent of Sphinx's Revelation unfortunately. Games 2 and 3 went better as he had no removal for the young pyromancers, but then they'd quickly get outclassed by Resto and Wall of Omens. I just couldn't draw what I needed when I needed.
Against Jund, I had draw issues, but I came out ahead each game. Heroes' downfall really came through in this one. Jund can't beat a Cruel Ultimatum, but i'm not entirely sure we can beat a Liliana followed by a Pyromaster.
Against Pod, when I ran out of removal, I lost. That was about it. Most of the games went well, but if I couldn't close it fast enough, they tended to just get ahead. It's crazy important not to let a birthing pod resolve.
Affinity was bad. I struggled. The only good game I had was when I kept a 3 bolt, mana leak hand on the play.
I think my sideboarding was off at times, but my issue with this deck seems to just being able to draw at the right times.
I prefer alchemy since it's always better in the earlier game, I would rather dig four deep than draw 2 on t5.
On t7 + I would always rather just have a cruel ultimatum
The only time bsz would practically be more effective than either is on t6, I just prefer the flexibility and power level of the other 2. Draw spells with flashback are underplayed in this format imo, especially with spot discard, lili, and the inherent flexibility they give you when paired with reactionary instants at (or around) the same cmc
Quick Update
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (21)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Think Twice
3 Mana Leak
3 Geth's Verdict
1 Condescend
3 Electrolyze
1 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Cryptic Command
Sorcery (10)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Damnation
3 Cruel Ultimatum
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats
4 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Thoughtseize
3 Terminate
3 Countersquall
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Spellskite
3 Stone Rain
@badtoazt
UWR and other control variants should be easy imo, they can't handle the spot discard, the eot snapcaster harassment, and cruel ultimatum all at the same time. Just familiarize yourself moreso with the mu and it should be an easy win
Against Affinity I think we have a slight advantage at least, matchup familiarity is key though.
I just want to stress the importance of reliably disrupting your opponent's gameplan in the first few turns. Spell Snare and/or IOK are a must alongside lightning bolt, they are both universally strong against the field and help pave the way for an ultimatum. Personally, I prefer IOK since it gives you information and helps you form your gameplan while it also deals with way more problematic cards than snare, also enables some more flexibility with the bounce mode of cc. Snare is better if you can't afford 8 fetches since it's easier on the mana base (when taking subsequent turns into consideration, the explanation would be a long write-up), and it's better in some scenarios (like your opponent just playing in top deck mode).
However, feel free to test it. Perhaps you are running a build that can utilize it better!
GBW Nic-Fit GBW
UBRWG Dredge UBRWG
Modern:
R RDW R
UBW Esper Control UBW
EDH:
BG Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord BG
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/aether-whirlwind/