I think that following up a Damnation with a Tamiyo to tap down their last guy seems like a strong play. I am trying out an approach with less counters and more tap out, since cruel ultimatum is sorcery anyways I feel that It is only important to leave mana open against twin and pod. So far have no had any issues with mana, but I have also not run across any blood moon yet. Although I do play the swamps and islands necessary to cast an ultimatum if I fetch for them. Like I said it needs a lot more testing against some of the more major decks right now, but it is a lot of fun and I like this style of it.
I kind of really want to run tech edge in this deck but I don't think it is possible with the mana requirements on ultimatum. But there was a game I lost because I couldn't deal with an inkmoth nexus. Tried to electrolyze it and he spell pierced it twice.
Note on Ashiok and Rakdos's Return. I think that both of them can be strong cards in modern. Ashiok is my only real win condition in the deck besides the manland+snapcaster beat down plan. Rakdos's Return just seems like it could be great to cast before an ultimatum to kind of test the waters a bit, it can also just fireball someone if it gets to that point since I have at least 7 mana for ultimatum anyways.
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I think that following up a Damnation with a Tamiyo to tap down their last guy seems like a strong play. I am trying out an approach with less counters and more tap out, since cruel ultimatum is sorcery anyways I feel that It is only important to leave mana open against twin and pod. So far have no had any issues with mana, but I have also not run across any blood moon yet. Although I do play the swamps and islands necessary to cast an ultimatum if I fetch for them. Like I said it needs a lot more testing against some of the more major decks right now, but it is a lot of fun and I like this style of it.
I kind of really want to run tech edge in this deck but I don't think it is possible with the mana requirements on ultimatum. But there was a game I lost because I couldn't deal with an inkmoth nexus. Tried to electrolyze it and he spell pierced it twice.
Note on Ashiok and Rakdos's Return. I think that both of them can be strong cards in modern. Ashiok is my only real win condition in the deck besides the manland+snapcaster beat down plan. Rakdos's Return just seems like it could be great to cast before an ultimatum to kind of test the waters a bit, it can also just fireball someone if it gets to that point since I have at least 7 mana for ultimatum anyways.
The biggest problem that I can see with this version is that you aren't running Lightning Bolt.
Bolts kill mana dorks and other creatures to slow down your opponent until you can sweep. Have you played zoo, pod, or merfolk? On their turn 3 you can be dead or almost dead before you can sweep. And having cryptic as your only counter available at turn 4 is dangerous. I like some of the ideas here, but I'd say scratch the maw and ashoik and get 4 bolts.
I guess the point is you have very little interaction/disruption turns 1-3 to stop your opponent. If they are on the play they are very capable of making their turn 4 move and you don't have much to stop it with 3 mana.
Shriekmaw is there because it is a terminate that you can get back to your hand with ultimatum if you need it. Being unblockable also helps with the tar pit beat down finish. I can agree that Ashiok may be up for cut, along with the RReturn or moving thoughtsieze to the board. Like I said I have tested it very little so far and it needs tons more. I don't want to run to many counters though because I would much rather be proactive with sweepers and planeswalkers and be tap out than be draw go style. They cryptics are there because they are too good not to run, provide a lot of utility to help get you to 7 mana, and because you absolutely cannot tap out against splinter twin. The counterflux in the board come in for that matchup as well because you can cast it on the draw.
Against Zoo I feel that you can use your life as a resource to buy you some time, they will likely not kill you on turn 3 and anger of the gods wrecks them. Most of the time you can just draw with serum visions or think twice on the first two turns to make sure you are hitting land drops and are able to cast an anger turn 3. At least that has been my experience playing against Zoo with other decks that I have built.
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You can't use your life total as a resource against zoo because you have to fetch and/or shock your self to cast the sweepers and that means more lifeloss. Even after the sweeper it takes 1 stumble in your draw to screw you up. Especially with only 1 terminate, if you are stack with AotG what will you do for a Tarmogoyf? Shriekmaw is indeed a good choice since you can fetch it back from GY but: 1) it is not even close to a terminate (2 less targets + the creature can regenerate) 2) by the point you slam your ultimatum you (probably) don't need the shriekmaws ability. Having lavaclaw reaches is all you need to finish things off.
4 cryptics might be too many cause you don't want to draw them that early and with all that card draw you run you will eventually get one. I think that with your build merfold, zoo or any other aggro and burn (which is already bad Mu) you are going to have a ton of problems. The same goes for pod decks unless you are lucky enough to thoughtseize a pod from their hand. You need early counters like mana leak, remand, spell snare.
Saying that because you play red you shouldn't play Lightning Bolt is no argument. Lightning bolt is arguably one of the best cards in the entire format. It is the sole reason some decks decide to splash red. It is a card that defines the format right now (the argument that a card is "good but dies to bolt" is there for some reason). So yeah, especially if you are a control deck you SHOULD run a lightning bolts no matter what. There needs to be a very good reason for not doing so (like storm decks for example, but even they run em SB or, rarely MB).
All those sweepers just seems ambitious. Creatures are too good nowadays to use your life as a reskurce that often. Back then yes you could sit there just draw cards early game then wipe but that is not true in todays world. Your tapout options seem pretty questionable also such as Ashiok.she is not even good enough for standard which is muchslower and has no combo. Usually tapout control is draw go for the first 4 turns until you can just drop superior threats such as batterskull, wurmcoil, ajani, and other bomby cards. Combo also seems like they can out interact you for easy wins.
I like Demigod as a quick clock against U/W/R. It only dies to path, if they counter it and you play another one then it puts them on a two turn clock. The idea is that it forces them to have multiple path to exiles. You could argue that slot for thundermaw or stormbreath or batterskull but against U/W/R they have more counterspells than they do path to exiles.
Not never control deck in modern needs to run lightning bolt. Shaheen Sorani ran a U/W control deck at GP Richmond with 6 planeswalkers, only counterspells were 4 crptic commands, and no bolts. My point is there is another way to play something and I would like to try that approach before I resort to the default. I will not scrap the ashioks until I get further testing in. Once I have sufficient testing with her in the deck, yes, she is the first thing on the chopping block. When I played ashiok in another deck I was testing out, she was actually quite good against pod and Zoo.
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You can't use your life total as a resource against zoo because you have to fetch and/or shock your self to cast the sweepers and that means more lifeloss. Even after the sweeper it takes 1 stumble in your draw to screw you up. Especially with only 1 terminate, if you are stack with AotG what will you do for a Tarmogoyf? Shriekmaw is indeed a good choice since you can fetch it back from GY but: 1) it is not even close to a terminate (2 less targets + the creature can regenerate) 2) by the point you slam your ultimatum you (probably) don't need the shriekmaws ability. Having lavaclaw reaches is all you need to finish things off.
4 cryptics might be too many cause you don't want to draw them that early and with all that card draw you run you will eventually get one. I think that with your build merfold, zoo or any other aggro and burn (which is already bad Mu) you are going to have a ton of problems. The same goes for pod decks unless you are lucky enough to thoughtseize a pod from their hand. You need early counters like mana leak, remand, spell snare.
Saying that because you play red you shouldn't play Lightning Bolt is no argument. Lightning bolt is arguably one of the best cards in the entire format. It is the sole reason some decks decide to splash red. It is a card that defines the format right now (the argument that a card is "good but dies to bolt" is there for some reason). So yeah, especially if you are a control deck you SHOULD run a lightning bolts no matter what. There needs to be a very good reason for not doing so (like storm decks for example, but even they run em SB or, rarely MB).
how does affinity win the game without lightning bolt omg! how does pod manage it? what was tarmo twin thinking when they decided to not add 4 of the best card ever printed to their deck!
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First of all you should be more polite. I said that a deck which runs red, and especially a control deck, should (and imho must) play Lightning bolt. If you play UW control it is a different story. The same goes for other decks which don't need the bolt because they have different strategies. However there is a reason that, for example UWR control ALWAYS runs lightning bolt and it is the same reason we should do it too. It is the best burn spell and one of the best decks in the format, that is a fact you can't argue with. If you don't want to run it feel free to do so, however if you want to argue about it find some constructive arguments to provide a constructive discussion.
U/W/R is a control deck who's main win condition is burn. 4 helix, 4 bolt, some number of electrolyze, with more than 30 points worth of burn in the deck + snapcaster mage it is the easiest way for them to win the game once they have the board under control. I see no need for a deck with multiple win conditions to run a card which does not help the main plan. Lightning bolt is a backup plan, not a number one game plan. In fact, I think lightning bolt is probably cards number 56-60 in U/W/R.
I am sorry if i sound rude. I get heated sometimes. I will post more after I test tonight at modern mondays and let you know if ashiok or RReturn make it or get cut. As I have said, I am not certain that these cards are the right here, but you sound as if I should not even be testing them out. If there was a default stock list of Cruel Control, wouldn't it be winning? As there is not, I feel that everything is up for grabs.
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You lack enough early game interaction, lighting bolt, inquisition of kozilek, and spell snare do well here. Every competitive modern deck is brutally consistent and efficient, you need to match that consistency and efficiency. That means 8-10 1 cmc spells that can cross-applicably hit the meta effectively.
Ashiok and tamiyo are terribad, they don't do anything against a lot of decks. The goal of cruel control is to land a cruel ultimatum, not a rakdos's return, not a planeswalker/win-more card. This means that every card up to t7 should be supporting the path to burying your opponents in card advantage, not going off into an alternate and less effective gameplan. This is why cruel ultimatum is so good, as a finisher it packs quadruple duty as creature removal, hand disruption, tempo gains, and massive card advantage. It's the only finisher that doesn't care about what match-up you're against. Olivia voldaren sucks against combo, expensive creatures are too easily removed, and planeswalkers aren't impactful enough. Example, you wouldn't want olivia or a titan against combo, a planeswalker against infect/combo, not rakdos's return against an aggro deck ect the list goes on but you would always want a t7 ultimatum.
You're sporting too many sweepers, once again potential do-nothings in a lot of match-ups, splintertwin, tron, control, combo ect. It helps you in the zoo match-up but that's about it. This is why everyone here is advocating 4 lighting bolt, it can disrupt zoo well enough and is an efficient win condition against decks that don't warrant removal since you can send it to their face in order to net tempo. After you get exposed to the meta in general, you're going to re-evaluate your card choices heavily
The mana base is bad
11 red and 18 blue sources are in now way going to consistently support a t3 anger of the gods (needs 19 red) or CC (needs 22 blue), I don't care if you're running serum visions to up the consistency by a couple percent. The deck should be consistent on its own mana-wise and relying on a few cantrips is a bad idea
And on the stock list, there a few changes here and there but they all have a few things in common. Are they winning dailies/events everyday? Maybe not, but that's moreso due to the decks popularity than its effectiveness. If anything, one cruel control deck placing high piloted by a few people is more proof of its effectiveness than (insert popular deck) placing high when 15-20% of the entire field is playing said deck
4 Lighting Bolt
4 IOK or Spell Snare
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
3-4 Cryptic Command
2-3 Cruel Ultimatum
3-4 Mana leak/Remand
2-4 Black Spot removal
2-3 sweepers (not 5) in the maindeck
No Ashiok or Tamiyo
No Rakdos's Return
By now the only things that are for the most part up for debate are
Choice of black spot removal (terminate, geth's verdict, tribute, far // away)
Choice of cheap card draw (think twice, remand, shadow of doubt, serum visions)
Choice of 3 cmc spell (electrolyze, tribute, far, forbidden alchemy)
Then the sideboard of course but I don't have the energy to touch up on that
Did some testing with the list today and it was inconclusive. Only person at the shop with a modern deck was playing swords and dorks and land destruction which you can guess is a terrible matchup for someone wanting to hit 7 mana spells every game. I can say though that I was very unhappy every time I drew the RReturn. Going to see if anyone is in tomorrow and swap the Return out for a second terminate. That is about all I am changing at this point until I get some more useful testing in.
I will say this differently this time. I am not apposed to playing lightning bolt or cheap counterspells. I would just like to test out a more proactive strategy right now. It takes no effort on your part for me to test out bad cards. I will test them until I am sure they are not the right choice. I get this feeling that people don't want to make an effort to try something new when something that is old is not working anymore. Look at threads of disloyalty. The card went from worthless and unplayed to $30 after one weekend when someone had the balls to try it out in a tournament.
It is obviously not "working" or it would be what people played when they went to control. Instead those shoes are filled by U/W/R.
The main problems that Grixis has are that casting Cruel Ultimatum is hard on the manabase, which means that it can't play Tectonic Edge, and that it doesn't have a second removal spell on the level of Path. Until these problems are fixed, trying to play Grixis draw-go will almost always be inferior to playing WUR draw-go.
The only things uwr has over any other control deck is two on color fetches, and the combination of bolt and white for arguably the best sideboard cards. Uwr can also switch to a tempo game with burn, snap, clique, and manlands to just get there in bad matchups. I play esper teachings and cruel control. With teachings I feel the power of white sideboard but I miss bolt while with cruel you have the amazing red removal but miss out on white's sideboard cards. Of course the real pain is the lack of another fetch landwith two of our colors otherwise this deck and esper would be just as competitive.
I would rather have black though in a combo/boggles meta. Edict effects are at a prime with how well boggles is doing and how poorly zoo is performing the life gain from uwr might not be that big of a deal.
It is obviously not "working" or it would be what people played when they went to control. Instead those shoes are filled by U/W/R.
Check Modo - it has been working. Besides, if there is ever a reason this deck wasn't working, snapcaster + bolt would be the last reasons for that.
Cruel control has better tools vs. combo, UWR is better against aggro. Helix + Path make UWR better vs. aggro. Hand disruption effects are better in mirror matches or against combo. I actually would also make a small argument that Cruel Control is better against creature-based aggro since none of your removal spells ramp the opponent like path, and you also gain access to edict effects when necessary.
3 Serum Visions
2 Think Twice
2 Shadow of Doubt
Kill:
1 Terminate
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Damnation
3 Electrolyze
Counter:
4 Cryptic Command
Creatures:
1 Shriekmaw
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers:
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Thoughtseize
Lands:
2 Blood Crypt
3 Steam Vents
3 Watery Grave
2 Graven Cairns
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Scalding Tarns
2 Marsh Flats
3 Swamp
2 Island
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Torpor Orb
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Counterflux
2 Sowing Salt
1 Combust
2 Shadow of Doubt
I think that following up a Damnation with a Tamiyo to tap down their last guy seems like a strong play. I am trying out an approach with less counters and more tap out, since cruel ultimatum is sorcery anyways I feel that It is only important to leave mana open against twin and pod. So far have no had any issues with mana, but I have also not run across any blood moon yet. Although I do play the swamps and islands necessary to cast an ultimatum if I fetch for them. Like I said it needs a lot more testing against some of the more major decks right now, but it is a lot of fun and I like this style of it.
I kind of really want to run tech edge in this deck but I don't think it is possible with the mana requirements on ultimatum. But there was a game I lost because I couldn't deal with an inkmoth nexus. Tried to electrolyze it and he spell pierced it twice.
Note on Ashiok and Rakdos's Return. I think that both of them can be strong cards in modern. Ashiok is my only real win condition in the deck besides the manland+snapcaster beat down plan. Rakdos's Return just seems like it could be great to cast before an ultimatum to kind of test the waters a bit, it can also just fireball someone if it gets to that point since I have at least 7 mana for ultimatum anyways.
The biggest problem that I can see with this version is that you aren't running Lightning Bolt.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Against Zoo I feel that you can use your life as a resource to buy you some time, they will likely not kill you on turn 3 and anger of the gods wrecks them. Most of the time you can just draw with serum visions or think twice on the first two turns to make sure you are hitting land drops and are able to cast an anger turn 3. At least that has been my experience playing against Zoo with other decks that I have built.
4 cryptics might be too many cause you don't want to draw them that early and with all that card draw you run you will eventually get one. I think that with your build merfold, zoo or any other aggro and burn (which is already bad Mu) you are going to have a ton of problems. The same goes for pod decks unless you are lucky enough to thoughtseize a pod from their hand. You need early counters like mana leak, remand, spell snare.
Saying that because you play red you shouldn't play Lightning Bolt is no argument. Lightning bolt is arguably one of the best cards in the entire format. It is the sole reason some decks decide to splash red. It is a card that defines the format right now (the argument that a card is "good but dies to bolt" is there for some reason). So yeah, especially if you are a control deck you SHOULD run a lightning bolts no matter what. There needs to be a very good reason for not doing so (like storm decks for example, but even they run em SB or, rarely MB).
Could you also explain the demigod on the SB?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Not never control deck in modern needs to run lightning bolt. Shaheen Sorani ran a U/W control deck at GP Richmond with 6 planeswalkers, only counterspells were 4 crptic commands, and no bolts. My point is there is another way to play something and I would like to try that approach before I resort to the default. I will not scrap the ashioks until I get further testing in. Once I have sufficient testing with her in the deck, yes, she is the first thing on the chopping block. When I played ashiok in another deck I was testing out, she was actually quite good against pod and Zoo.
There's also the small fact that Lightning Bolt + Snapcaster Mage=Win
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I am sorry if i sound rude. I get heated sometimes. I will post more after I test tonight at modern mondays and let you know if ashiok or RReturn make it or get cut. As I have said, I am not certain that these cards are the right here, but you sound as if I should not even be testing them out. If there was a default stock list of Cruel Control, wouldn't it be winning? As there is not, I feel that everything is up for grabs.
Ashiok and tamiyo are terribad, they don't do anything against a lot of decks. The goal of cruel control is to land a cruel ultimatum, not a rakdos's return, not a planeswalker/win-more card. This means that every card up to t7 should be supporting the path to burying your opponents in card advantage, not going off into an alternate and less effective gameplan. This is why cruel ultimatum is so good, as a finisher it packs quadruple duty as creature removal, hand disruption, tempo gains, and massive card advantage. It's the only finisher that doesn't care about what match-up you're against. Olivia voldaren sucks against combo, expensive creatures are too easily removed, and planeswalkers aren't impactful enough. Example, you wouldn't want olivia or a titan against combo, a planeswalker against infect/combo, not rakdos's return against an aggro deck ect the list goes on but you would always want a t7 ultimatum.
You're sporting too many sweepers, once again potential do-nothings in a lot of match-ups, splintertwin, tron, control, combo ect. It helps you in the zoo match-up but that's about it. This is why everyone here is advocating 4 lighting bolt, it can disrupt zoo well enough and is an efficient win condition against decks that don't warrant removal since you can send it to their face in order to net tempo. After you get exposed to the meta in general, you're going to re-evaluate your card choices heavily
The mana base is bad
11 red and 18 blue sources are in now way going to consistently support a t3 anger of the gods (needs 19 red) or CC (needs 22 blue), I don't care if you're running serum visions to up the consistency by a couple percent. The deck should be consistent on its own mana-wise and relying on a few cantrips is a bad idea
And on the stock list, there a few changes here and there but they all have a few things in common. Are they winning dailies/events everyday? Maybe not, but that's moreso due to the decks popularity than its effectiveness. If anything, one cruel control deck placing high piloted by a few people is more proof of its effectiveness than (insert popular deck) placing high when 15-20% of the entire field is playing said deck
4 Lighting Bolt
4 IOK or Spell Snare
3-4 Snapcaster Mage
3-4 Cryptic Command
2-3 Cruel Ultimatum
3-4 Mana leak/Remand
2-4 Black Spot removal
2-3 sweepers (not 5) in the maindeck
No Ashiok or Tamiyo
No Rakdos's Return
By now the only things that are for the most part up for debate are
Choice of black spot removal (terminate, geth's verdict, tribute, far // away)
Choice of cheap card draw (think twice, remand, shadow of doubt, serum visions)
Choice of 3 cmc spell (electrolyze, tribute, far, forbidden alchemy)
Then the sideboard of course but I don't have the energy to touch up on that
I will say this differently this time. I am not apposed to playing lightning bolt or cheap counterspells. I would just like to test out a more proactive strategy right now. It takes no effort on your part for me to test out bad cards. I will test them until I am sure they are not the right choice. I get this feeling that people don't want to make an effort to try something new when something that is old is not working anymore. Look at threads of disloyalty. The card went from worthless and unplayed to $30 after one weekend when someone had the balls to try it out in a tournament.
There's obviously also Grixis Delver that briefly was a thing.
The main problems that Grixis has are that casting Cruel Ultimatum is hard on the manabase, which means that it can't play Tectonic Edge, and that it doesn't have a second removal spell on the level of Path. Until these problems are fixed, trying to play Grixis draw-go will almost always be inferior to playing WUR draw-go.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I would rather have black though in a combo/boggles meta. Edict effects are at a prime with how well boggles is doing and how poorly zoo is performing the life gain from uwr might not be that big of a deal.
Check Modo - it has been working. Besides, if there is ever a reason this deck wasn't working, snapcaster + bolt would be the last reasons for that.
Cruel control has better tools vs. combo, UWR is better against aggro. Helix + Path make UWR better vs. aggro. Hand disruption effects are better in mirror matches or against combo. I actually would also make a small argument that Cruel Control is better against creature-based aggro since none of your removal spells ramp the opponent like path, and you also gain access to edict effects when necessary.