I wonder if there's anything we take from this UWR list in the PT finals.
Threads of Disloyalty? But for real, we get to see, I think, why people prefer UWR instead of grixis control. Path to exile and Sideboard options were key to winning this PT and is what we are the weakest. I don't think we have a worse main build, maybe lacking lightning helix but I don't think it is that important. So overall we need, I think to adjust the sideboard and see what is the best way to fit in the hole of path to exile.
I wonder if there's anything we take from this UWR list in the PT finals.
Threads of Disloyalty? But for real, we get to see, I think, why people prefer UWR instead of grixis control. Path to exile and Sideboard options were key to winning this PT and is what we are the weakest. I don't think we have a worse main build, maybe lacking lightning helix but I don't think it is that important. So overall we need, I think to adjust the sideboard and see what is the best way to fit in the hole of path to exile.
What this deck is really missing is a good planeswalker like Ajani Vengeant. Still, Grixis seems like it should be doing better than it is.
I wonder if there's anything we take from this UWR list in the PT finals.
Threads of Disloyalty? But for real, we get to see, I think, why people prefer UWR instead of grixis control. Path to exile and Sideboard options were key to winning this PT and is what we are the weakest. I don't think we have a worse main build, maybe lacking lightning helix but I don't think it is that important. So overall we need, I think to adjust the sideboard and see what is the best way to fit in the hole of path to exile.
What this deck is really missing is a good planeswalker like Ajani Vengeant. Still, Grixis seems like it should be doing better than it is.
I don't think this statement is necessarily true. There are lists of UWR control w/o planeswalkers. Also,the fact that Ajani won an aired game doesn't mean it is THE best thing the deck runs. I believe the sideboard options is what makes all the difference and we need to work in that direction. And Grixis isn't doing better because it is not played, not cause it's bad.
I wonder if there's anything we take from this UWR list in the PT finals.
Threads of Disloyalty? But for real, we get to see, I think, why people prefer UWR instead of grixis control. Path to exile and Sideboard options were key to winning this PT and is what we are the weakest. I don't think we have a worse main build, maybe lacking lightning helix but I don't think it is that important. So overall we need, I think to adjust the sideboard and see what is the best way to fit in the hole of path to exile.
What this deck is really missing is a good planeswalker like Ajani Vengeant. Still, Grixis seems like it should be doing better than it is.
I don't think this statement is necessarily true. There are lists of UWR control w/o planeswalkers. Also,the fact that Ajani won an aired game doesn't mean it is THE best thing the deck runs. I believe the sideboard options is what makes all the difference and we need to work in that direction. And Grixis isn't doing better because it is not played, not cause it's bad.
I disagree about the planeswalkers, but I agree with you last statement. WUR Control does better than Grixis Control mainly because more people play it.
Not that a good, strong planeswalker doesn't make any control deck better.
Chapin played Jace, Architect of Thought in his Cruel at a Pro Tour last year. I think he's better in UW though because our Walls and Angels are actually very good alongside his +1.
Why not try Chandra Ablaze? Her +1 basically gives Lightning Bolt and Electrolyze a second mode, her -2 can draw you cards and put you on parity with your opponent if they have more cards than you, and with all the burn and Cruel Ultimatums you guys have her -7 ought to always be an automatic victory. At worst she draws six cards for six mana because you a -2 her twice right out of the gate. Nine cards if you +1 her once somewhere in there. Also note that her +1 hits players (!) and discarding a red spell isn't much of a cost in a format with Snapcaster Mage.
Not that a good, strong planeswalker doesn't make any control deck better.
Chapin played Jace, Architect of Thought in his Cruel at a Pro Tour last year. I think he's better in UW though because our Walls and Angels are actually very good alongside his +1.
Why not try Chandra Ablaze? Her +1 basically gives Lightning Bolt and Electrolyze a second mode, her -2 can draw you cards and put you on parity with your opponent if they have more cards than you, and with all the burn and Cruel Ultimatums you guys have her -7 ought to always be an automatic victory. At worst she draws six cards for five mana because you a -2 her twice right out of the gate. Nine cards if you +1 her once somewhere in there.
I'd certainly try it, if I played this deck.
Chandra is one of the worst planeswalkers ever printed. She has no way to gain loyalty without losing card advantage. Her second ability is bad for us since we are a control deck that wants to hold up mana for counterspells and removal. Her ultimate is nice, but most planeswalker ultimates are. The worst thing of all is that she is a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't set your opponent back like Cruel Ultimatum does.
What this deck really needs is a good midgame draw spell like Fact or Fiction (I can keep hoping). Actually, any way to gain large amounts of card advantage before turn 7 would be nice.
Chandra is one of the worst planeswalkers ever printed. She has no way to gain loyalty without losing card advantage. Her second ability is bad for us since we are a control deck that wants to hold up mana for counterspells and removal. Her ultimate is nice, but most planeswalker ultimates are. The worst thing of all is that she is a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't set your opponent back like Cruel Ultimatum does.
What this deck really needs is a good midgame draw spell like Fact or Fiction (I can keep hoping). Actually, any way to gain large amounts of card advantage before turn 7 would be nice.
Well that is why we run think twice/shadow of doubt etc where other control decks don't
Chandra is one of the worst planeswalkers ever printed. She has no way to gain loyalty without losing card advantage. Her second ability is bad for us since we are a control deck that wants to hold up mana for counterspells and removal. Her ultimate is nice, but most planeswalker ultimates are. The worst thing of all is that she is a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't set your opponent back like Cruel Ultimatum does.
What this deck really needs is a good midgame draw spell like Fact or Fiction (I can keep hoping). Actually, any way to gain large amounts of card advantage before turn 7 would be nice.
Well that is why we run think twice/shadow of doubt etc where other control decks don't
True, but I am thinking that for the deck to be tier 1, something that is a little higher than those would have to be printed. Like the aforementioned Fact or Fiction (though this deck would still be worse than WUR Control then) or a planeswalker on the level of Ajani, Gideon, and Elspeth.
The main thing keeping Cruel Control from being the premier control deck is the lack of on color fetch land. Uwr has arid mesa and scalding tarn while we are missing polluted delta and bloodstained mire. Uwr is only missing flooded strand.
The other thing really are the sideboard options which uwr arguably has the most versatile sideboard in modern.
Once these small things get fixed I am sure cruel control will be the better control deck.
imo what cruel control lacks is really just the SB options. white offers stoney silent, rest in peace, wear/tear, timely reinforcements, even porphyry nodes.
this makes me wonder if the white splash is worth it...
We lack life gain and exile effects. In exchange, we get discard and edict effects, and get to play what is one of the most powerful finishers you could ask for. I do not accept that this deck is weaker than WUR; it's simply geared towards a different meta than WUR. We have the tools to destroy combo at the expense of making our aggro games a bit worse.
The problem is that WUR also has the tools to destroy combo. So that means that until new cards get printed that make this deck more powerful, it is unfortunately not quite as strong as WUR under most circumstances.
We lack life gain and exile effects. In exchange, we get discard and edict effects, and get to play what is one of the most powerful finishers you could ask for. I do not accept that this deck is weaker than WUR; it's simply geared towards a different meta than WUR. We have the tools to destroy combo at the expense of making our aggro games a bit worse.
The problem is that WUR also has the tools to destroy combo. So that means that until new cards get printed that make this deck more powerful, it is unfortunately not quite as strong as WUR under most circumstances.
We have stuff like Devour Flesh against Infect, Illness in the Ranks against Faeries / Twin, discard spells against just about any combo deck, Rakdos Charm which serves as hate against any sort of yard strategy and also helps against artifacts (excellent against Pod), I mean what more do you really want?
A stronger aggro game? WUR has access to sideboard cards that are just as strong as or stronger than Grixis's (Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctitiy, Spellskite, Torpor Orb, Stony Silence, etc.). The difference is while Grixis might be slightly better against combo, WUR is a lot better against aggro and control.
If all ur gonna do is complain about us not being as good as Uwr due to your expert opinion based on one pro tour or then stay out of this thread and start posting in the Uwr thread. I play them both and grixis is a better control deck by far, just because you tools don't see the blatant advantages grixis has due to your hivemnd mentality doesn't mean you have to be a toxic naysayer here, it just means that you can't properly pilot or evaluate our card choices. I practically face Palmed my face off when you asserted that we need a planesewalker
Grixis will always have a better control my than Uwr btw
I have played mostly UWR and I can say it isn't any main things going on between the two decks. It so turns out their very equal almost favored to you, but there is a slight problem. The mana of shards tends to be inherently worse without two completely on color fetches like UWR and colonnade, which is better than tar pit. Its small but it really makes a difference sometimes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Modern: RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy: UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander: UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
We lack life gain and exile effects. In exchange, we get discard and edict effects, and get to play what is one of the most powerful finishers you could ask for. I do not accept that this deck is weaker than WUR; it's simply geared towards a different meta than WUR. We have the tools to destroy combo at the expense of making our aggro games a bit worse.
The problem is that WUR also has the tools to destroy combo. So that means that until new cards get printed that make this deck more powerful, it is unfortunately not quite as strong as WUR under most circumstances.
We have stuff like Devour Flesh against Infect, Illness in the Ranks against Faeries / Twin, discard spells against just about any combo deck, Rakdos Charm which serves as hate against any sort of yard strategy and also helps against artifacts (excellent against Pod), I mean what more do you really want?
A stronger aggro game? WUR has access to sideboard cards that are just as strong as or stronger than Grixis's (Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctitiy, Spellskite, Torpor Orb, Stony Silence, etc.). The difference is while Grixis might be slightly better against combo, WUR is a lot better against aggro and control.
It's not nearly as bad as you are making it sound. It's true that Burn is probably our worst matchup since our removal is often dead against them, but we still have access to sweepers and enough removal / counters to hold out against most aggro decks until we can take over. Aggro =/= autoloss. And I don't think I've ever lost to WUR Control either. Between discard, Clique, and counters, we can go toe to toe with them until we can force a game winning Ultimatum through.
And we have access to Spellskite and Torpor Orb also if we want them. I tried specifically to only mention cards we have that they don't.
You are sort of right about this, but I did not say that aggro was an auto=loss. I was saying that WUR was almost as strong against combo and much stronger against aggro (especially because of sideboard cards like Supreme Verdict, Porphyry Nodes, Ghostly Prison, Stony Silence, and Timely Reinforcements). Also, WUR Control often runs Clique as well and they have the advantage of having more removal that functions as burn as opposed to removal that can only target creatures. Another critical thing is that Revelation is an instant, while Ultimatum is a sorcery. And yes, I realize that you can run artifacts too. I just mentioned them because they seemed better than some of the things that you were talking about.
If all ur gonna do is complain about us not being as good as Uwr due to your expert opinion based on one pro tour or then stay out of this thread and start posting in the Uwr thread. I play them both and grixis is a better control deck by far, just because you tools don't see the blatant advantages grixis has due to your hivemnd mentality doesn't mean you have to be a toxic naysayer here, it just means that you can't properly pilot or evaluate our card choices. I practically face Palmed my face off when you asserted that we need a planesewalker
Grixis will always have a better control my than Uwr btw
First, I corrected what I said about a planeswalker to "Any large midgame source of card advantage". Currently that is Cryptic Command, but I still think that a strong midgame draw spell or a powerful planeswalker would help this deck. Second, I am not following the hive mind mentality. I am currently playing Esper Faerie Gifts Control that doesn't run any spot removal and runs Dissolve and Condescend in the maindeck. Before that I was looking at MemoryLapse's WU Control deck that operated on the same premise. I don't see how that is a hive mind mentality. I see the advantages that Grixis has. I just think that WUR has more of them.
Uwr is better positioned against zoo, which isn't really a bad matchup for us. We have a marginally better game against tron and a much worse matchup against burn, basically don't play grixis at all if you're expecting burn.
What we do have is a much better game against infect(edicts), bogle(edicts), control, blue tempo decks, and combo decks. Totally worth the trade-off if you ask me
Blood moon is getting popular as a maindeck option again though, repeal is really good to handle it while being a great way to dismantle the ineffectiveness of IoK later on in the game. Electrolyze might be officially dead and I'm considering just running far // away over it, making a few matchups better and at the expense of having a few worse match-ups. Another card that has good synergy with spot discard, allowing us to disrupt the early game with it while not losing its effectiveness late game. Repeal and Far // Away + IoK and Seize isn't the most efficient line of play, but in the mid-late game efficiency doesn't matter as much as versatility anyways. There are also the snapcater dance shenanigans to keep in mind too.
Guys, i need an answer. Im a huge Cruel Control enthusiast, and my friends always ask me, "Why not just play uwr?" Im not ignorant, i see the pros and cons of each deck, but i just cant wrap my head around how there isn't ONE guy out there top 8ing with it!! I mean black is great in addition to ur, as is white, but can someone give me a reason why there isnt a guy out there making youtube coverage or making it to top 8. I just watched protour born of the gods, and its all pod and uwr, there was even one guy playing mono black discard! i mean how?! How come there isnt cruel control out there? what is our weakness?! Are there just not enough enthusiasts out there?! Somebody tell me!!
Jumping in the bandwagon here, more demoralizing is a cruel ultimatum into a snapcaster cruel ultimatum with the snapcaster you just picked from your gy
Which in turn draws you into another cruel ultimatum
Guys, i need an answer. Im a huge Cruel Control enthusiast, and my friends always ask me, "Why not just play uwr?" Im not ignorant, i see the pros and cons of each deck, but i just cant wrap my head around how there isn't ONE guy out there top 8ing with it!! I mean black is great in addition to ur, as is white, but can someone give me a reason why there isnt a guy out there making youtube coverage or making it to top 8. I just watched protour born of the gods, and its all pod and uwr, there was even one guy playing mono black discard! i mean how?! How come there isnt cruel control out there? what is our weakness?! Are there just not enough enthusiasts out there?! Somebody tell me!!
the most obvious thing we can do is compare the lists. let's take mclaren's list for instance, in grixis colours we're missing the colonnades, PtEs, helixes, ajani vengeant, stony silent, celestial purge, timely reinforcements, wear/tear, and porphyry nodes. we gained targeted discard from black, which is excellent. but imo what we really lacked are PtEs and lightning helixes, which kept them alive against aggro and the sideboard cards such as wear/tear and stony silent. imo threads of disloyalty is a smart sideboard card and we should start using it too. i will start testing my grixis list when i get my SB cards delivered next week, with some of the UWR sideboard options.
I feel like black is weaker than white in modern for control purposes. The premier removal spell of a format being white and not black says all you need to know I think. Cruel gives more satisfying victories which is why I stick with it
The above is a personal opinion, oughtta be yours.
Woot, I just 4-0'ed a daily event with Cruel Control. I imagine the decklist will be posted since it was a pretty large event. I was able to go on a perfect 8-0 run playing agianst UR delver/faeries, Melira Pod, Mono White Enchantment Stuffs, and Infect. The funny thing is I actually loaded the wrong list (although it was pretty similar to what I had wanted to play). The list should ideally have 1-2 snapcasters in it and only 60 cards maindeck.
Guys, i need an answer. Im a huge Cruel Control enthusiast, and my friends always ask me, "Why not just play uwr?" Im not ignorant, i see the pros and cons of each deck, but i just cant wrap my head around how there isn't ONE guy out there top 8ing with it!! I mean black is great in addition to ur, as is white, but can someone give me a reason why there isnt a guy out there making youtube coverage or making it to top 8. I just watched protour born of the gods, and its all pod and uwr, there was even one guy playing mono black discard! i mean how?! How come there isnt cruel control out there? what is our weakness?! Are there just not enough enthusiasts out there?! Somebody tell me!!
There are a few reasons I like Cruel more than UWR. 1, cruel control plays cruel ultimatum simply enough, which is a much stronger card than Sphinx's Revelation. 2, being able to mix in hand disruption with permission is also really strong, providing an edge in any control mirror as well as against combo. 3, black removal actually has a lot of advantages, the primary being that you don't ramp your opponents when you kill their creatures (unlike path). But overall, the primary reason you play cruel control is for cruel ultimatum itself + inquisitions. Sideboard options are fairly equal to be honest, both have a good range of options against combo and aggro when it comes to black vs. white.
Threads of Disloyalty?
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
What this deck is really missing is a good planeswalker like Ajani Vengeant. Still, Grixis seems like it should be doing better than it is.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't think this statement is necessarily true. There are lists of UWR control w/o planeswalkers. Also,the fact that Ajani won an aired game doesn't mean it is THE best thing the deck runs. I believe the sideboard options is what makes all the difference and we need to work in that direction. And Grixis isn't doing better because it is not played, not cause it's bad.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
I disagree about the planeswalkers, but I agree with you last statement. WUR Control does better than Grixis Control mainly because more people play it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Chapin played Jace, Architect of Thought in his Cruel at a Pro Tour last year. I think he's better in UW though because our Walls and Angels are actually very good alongside his +1.
Why not try Chandra Ablaze? Her +1 basically gives Lightning Bolt and Electrolyze a second mode, her -2 can draw you cards and put you on parity with your opponent if they have more cards than you, and with all the burn and Cruel Ultimatums you guys have her -7 ought to always be an automatic victory. At worst she draws six cards for six mana because you a -2 her twice right out of the gate. Nine cards if you +1 her once somewhere in there. Also note that her +1 hits players (!) and discarding a red spell isn't much of a cost in a format with Snapcaster Mage.
I'd certainly try it, if I played this deck.
Chandra is one of the worst planeswalkers ever printed. She has no way to gain loyalty without losing card advantage. Her second ability is bad for us since we are a control deck that wants to hold up mana for counterspells and removal. Her ultimate is nice, but most planeswalker ultimates are. The worst thing of all is that she is a 6 mana sorcery that doesn't set your opponent back like Cruel Ultimatum does.
What this deck really needs is a good midgame draw spell like Fact or Fiction (I can keep hoping). Actually, any way to gain large amounts of card advantage before turn 7 would be nice.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
True, but I am thinking that for the deck to be tier 1, something that is a little higher than those would have to be printed. Like the aforementioned Fact or Fiction (though this deck would still be worse than WUR Control then) or a planeswalker on the level of Ajani, Gideon, and Elspeth.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The other thing really are the sideboard options which uwr arguably has the most versatile sideboard in modern.
Once these small things get fixed I am sure cruel control will be the better control deck.
this makes me wonder if the white splash is worth it...
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
The problem is that WUR also has the tools to destroy combo. So that means that until new cards get printed that make this deck more powerful, it is unfortunately not quite as strong as WUR under most circumstances.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
A stronger aggro game? WUR has access to sideboard cards that are just as strong as or stronger than Grixis's (Rest in Peace, Leyline of Sanctitiy, Spellskite, Torpor Orb, Stony Silence, etc.). The difference is while Grixis might be slightly better against combo, WUR is a lot better against aggro and control.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Grixis will always have a better control my than Uwr btw
Modern:
RUGScapeshift[RUG...Occasionally with goyfs
RUGTarmotwinRUG(RIP)
Legacy:
UWxuwr miracles and stonebladeUWx
Commander:
UWRShu Yun/Ruhan SmashUWR
You are sort of right about this, but I did not say that aggro was an auto=loss. I was saying that WUR was almost as strong against combo and much stronger against aggro (especially because of sideboard cards like Supreme Verdict, Porphyry Nodes, Ghostly Prison, Stony Silence, and Timely Reinforcements). Also, WUR Control often runs Clique as well and they have the advantage of having more removal that functions as burn as opposed to removal that can only target creatures. Another critical thing is that Revelation is an instant, while Ultimatum is a sorcery. And yes, I realize that you can run artifacts too. I just mentioned them because they seemed better than some of the things that you were talking about.
First, I corrected what I said about a planeswalker to "Any large midgame source of card advantage". Currently that is Cryptic Command, but I still think that a strong midgame draw spell or a powerful planeswalker would help this deck. Second, I am not following the hive mind mentality. I am currently playing Esper Faerie Gifts Control that doesn't run any spot removal and runs Dissolve and Condescend in the maindeck. Before that I was looking at MemoryLapse's WU Control deck that operated on the same premise. I don't see how that is a hive mind mentality. I see the advantages that Grixis has. I just think that WUR has more of them.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
What we do have is a much better game against infect(edicts), bogle(edicts), control, blue tempo decks, and combo decks. Totally worth the trade-off if you ask me
Blood moon is getting popular as a maindeck option again though, repeal is really good to handle it while being a great way to dismantle the ineffectiveness of IoK later on in the game. Electrolyze might be officially dead and I'm considering just running far // away over it, making a few matchups better and at the expense of having a few worse match-ups. Another card that has good synergy with spot discard, allowing us to disrupt the early game with it while not losing its effectiveness late game. Repeal and Far // Away + IoK and Seize isn't the most efficient line of play, but in the mid-late game efficiency doesn't matter as much as versatility anyways. There are also the snapcater dance shenanigans to keep in mind too.
the most obvious thing we can do is compare the lists. let's take mclaren's list for instance, in grixis colours we're missing the colonnades, PtEs, helixes, ajani vengeant, stony silent, celestial purge, timely reinforcements, wear/tear, and porphyry nodes. we gained targeted discard from black, which is excellent. but imo what we really lacked are PtEs and lightning helixes, which kept them alive against aggro and the sideboard cards such as wear/tear and stony silent. imo threads of disloyalty is a smart sideboard card and we should start using it too. i will start testing my grixis list when i get my SB cards delivered next week, with some of the UWR sideboard options.
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
The above is a personal opinion, oughtta be yours.
There are a few reasons I like Cruel more than UWR. 1, cruel control plays cruel ultimatum simply enough, which is a much stronger card than Sphinx's Revelation. 2, being able to mix in hand disruption with permission is also really strong, providing an edge in any control mirror as well as against combo. 3, black removal actually has a lot of advantages, the primary being that you don't ramp your opponents when you kill their creatures (unlike path). But overall, the primary reason you play cruel control is for cruel ultimatum itself + inquisitions. Sideboard options are fairly equal to be honest, both have a good range of options against combo and aggro when it comes to black vs. white.