Glad to help. Hopefully we didn't sound terribly negative, but I wanted to get my point across strongly.
And where I said "back when I played the deck," I meant "back when I played 8 fetches." I tried 8 fetches for awhile and it just never seemed great.
Edit: So I managed to combo off without playing any lands today. Mulliganned a landless hand into another landless hand, but it had 2 Angel's Grace, 2 Ad Nauseam and 2 Lotus Bloom. So I said screw it and went with it. Got Thoughtseized on turn 3 and he just conceded the moment he saw my hand.
^ I love the deck so much because I love punching through brick walls. Ad Nauseam requires a great deal of knowing the field, when to go off, how to fight through hate, setting up your draws and hands, sculpting your lines of play because it leaves little room for error, etc. You do sometimes just get those free wins, which are much appreciated in competitive tournaments, but I guess my fondness for the deck is many reasons. You'll find out grinding out combo decks can be just as fun as grinding out control decks.
Also a few posts above,
20 lands is fine, and I often cut to 18 in appropriate match-ups where Bosieju is dead land that self-inflicts and Tolaria West is a tapped Island. 22 seems a bit much. I've been rocking different variations of 20 ever since March and have run into no problems. In grindy blue match-ups you are allowed to play a lot of your lands and only hold up 7-10 lands (obviously not going all in, but most decks will play their shocks untapped against you anyway so the trade of playing a land over their fetch + shock is totally fine since you won't be shooting for a lot of damage).
I'm surprised people would go 22, even with Spellskite. Countless tournaments Spellskite has never got me once. Slaughter Pact game one against Twin and Pod decks that have it maindecked works, Hurkyl's Recall (or keeping in Pact) post-board is always fine, etc. Both those decks you should be siding into Dismember as well, so that's another cheap answer. The deck is mana intense yes, so just sculpt your plays carefully.
Edit: Last I posted 1-2 pages back, I took down FNM recently 5-1, which was fun. A few days later I self-eliminated myself at a PPTQ. 1-2 fair losses against my friend rocking Pod who just hit endless Discards game 3 (2x Thoughtseize, 1 Entomber Exarch, and something else... Sin Collector I think?). I beat Scapeshift in a matter of about 5 minutes. I mulled to 5 game one and won with a no lander (double Lotus Bloom backed by Pact, had to go for it because his 4th land was tapped so I figured I was screwed once he hit Cryptic mana). Then I accidentally self-eliminated against that tier 3 R/W Lockdown deck (which rarely ever "locks" down). Not a bad match-up, I've beat it before at GP's and FNM's. Game one he hit the Leyline turn 1, so I scooped rather than giving him information (tried to just hope that signaled I was on Burn or UR Delver) which I think he took the bait, because he sided into a bunch of mediocre cards. I got him game 2 even with 2x Leyline out because Echoing Truth remains our best S.B. card. Game 3 I mull, keep a 1 lander, and continue to not draw lands even after a Serum Vision. After struggling with my mana for a bit (still low on lands, and had to fire off a Prism to cast Unlife), I go for the combo while he just beating me with a Simian Spirit Guide. I draw my deck, and combo, and he asks if I deal with his Leyline (didn't have the spare amana for E-truth) that he had put really far aside that I hadn't even noticed. The tilt becomes real as I become visibly upset, and scoop, only to realize a minute later I hadn't played my land for land for turn, so I could played my plains, played Angel's Grace, then cast Patrcian's Scorn for free (it gets rid of Unlife but the Grace is still keeping me alive). Get rid of the Leyline, then shoot damage. Man, even after playing this deck for an entire year, 2nd at a PTQ, countless wins, losses, and many nights playtesting... I'm still learning this deck. Hahaha. I suck. Oh well, there will be more.
God it's been a long time since I've posted here....
Been playing around with the deck on cockatrice for the past few days and am planning on picking up the cards in a couple of days, I was wondering if anyone cared to critique my list or help show me what I could be doing better.
Lately I've been running 22 lands just for the opening hands. I was running 20 for awhile, but my percentage of opening hands with acceptable mana was not the greatest ever. However, I'm thinking of dropping to 21 and adding some more dig, and if it works out, I might go back down to twenty.
God it's been a long time since I've posted here....
Been playing around with the deck on cockatrice for the past few days and am planning on picking up the cards in a couple of days, I was wondering if anyone cared to critique my list or help show me what I could be doing better.
Looks pretty stock. I'd just move your Conjurer's Bauble to the sideboard and max out on Peer Through Depths. That card is an MVP in almost every game I play.
Also, I'd drop that Glacial Fortress for another Strand.
I'll try sideboarding the bauble, it sounds like a good idea. An extra Peer could also be great. I've seen some people that run an Echoing Truth mainboard instead of Bauble--has anyone had any success with that?
20 lands is fine, and I often cut to 18 in appropriate match-ups where Bosieju is dead land that self-inflicts and Tolaria West is a tapped Island. 22 seems a bit much. I've been rocking different variations of 20 ever since March and have run into no problems. In grindy blue match-ups you are allowed to play a lot of your lands and only hold up 7-10 lands (obviously not going all in, but most decks will play their shocks untapped against you anyway so the trade of playing a land over their fetch + shock is totally fine since you won't be shooting for a lot of damage).
I'm surprised people would go 22, even with Spellskite. Countless tournaments Spellskite has never got me once. Slaughter Pact game one against Twin and Pod decks that have it maindecked works, Hurkyl's Recall (or keeping in Pact) post-board is always fine, etc. Both those decks you should be siding into Dismember as well, so that's another cheap answer. The deck is mana intense yes, so just sculpt your plays carefully.
That's fair. The tournament I lost to Spellskite was the first time I'd played the deck in a competitive setting, and I'd completely forgotten about my mainboard Pact. How many Dismembers do you have in the sideboard?
I'm going to a local tournament on January 3rd and an IQ on January 4th, so I'll make sure to post results!
I was just wondering if people had ideas about how to build a fetchless manabase? Would you just run fastlands? I'm just not sure about the availability of fetches at my LGS.
Lots of folks run zero fetches, instead using more temples to filter. Piece of cake.
Alright, I just didn't find a list in the past few pages that wasn't running them, thanks
The variance between using fetches, temples, or some other choices of fast/filter/pain lands is mitigated through the artifacts. With lotus bloom, gemstone mine, and prism we almost always have the right colors on time. It's uncanny really how consistent it is.
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I agree with foxganic. If no one runs Blood Moon at your store, then going fetchless can be fine. However, if there are people who do, or you're playing in a larger event where you can't be sure of the meta, aggressively fetching basics is one of the best ways to avoid Blood Moon--and you can't do that without fetches.
Mmm...maybe. Blood moon comes down turn 3. By then you should have at least one prism out, and hopefully lotus bloom. Yeah, it hurts cantrips, but not a shut down, especially since you can angel's grace with prism, patrician's scorn for free, continue winning. Stony Silence might be worse.
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Stony Silence can definitely be an issue as well. Cantrips are very important-considering we only have 4 copies of one half of our combo, it can be difficult to find sometimes. Additionally, many of the dominant decks at the moment (Twin, Delver) can board in Blood Moon, so it's good to be able to play around it.
I've been playing this deck for a little while and it seems that being slightly more resistant to Blood Moon with fetches isn't worth giving up the consistency that you get for little cost with the Temples. More often than not you're racing in the current meta and getting turn 4's (sometimes 3) more frequently is overall better for the deck. It also makes your Scry's so much better and turns Peer Through Depths into a powerhouse. The Temples let you play fewer lands to free up space for more ways to get and defend the combo.
I think the biggest knock against the 8 Temple plan is the fact they enter tapped. You really want to have untapped lands for Turn 2 and/or Turn 3 so it's really important to keep the density of untapped lands high. I still MD Boseiju but I don't think keeping Tolaria MD works well with the Temples. I haven't had a problem with it, though, since this deck is pretty good at controlling its top card of the library.
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I can understand where you're coming from, but I think it's pretty meta-dependent. My local meta has a lot of Twin, Delver, Burn, and Goblins, so I run into Moon a lot. I wouldn't want to not have Tolaria mainboard, though--it serves as an extra copy of both Pacts and Boseiju, which can be extremely useful.
Welp, I got to play in a local event today, went 3-1 for 9th and not having fetches came up once.
Round 1 - Angel Pod
Nervous as ****, I missplay G1 and give him a voice token he needs to speed up his clock by one, the AN I needed was the next card.... G2 I just durdle and my hand gets destroyed by thoughtseize and Entomber exarch. Feeling pretty bleh after this game I go sit outside for a bit to try and focus.
Round 2 - GR Tron
Hurray, easy matchup! G1 he has 3 Karns starting on T3 and kills my mana. Game two I learn he doesn't really know what I'm up to, he boarded in Blood moon, I sit around for a while while he's casting O-Stones and cracking relics until I get a pentad and combo him. G3 I have a T4 kill and just kill him.
Round 3 - UR Tempo Twin
Feeling better now, this guy has no idea what I'm doing but kills me G1 with a clique and 3 combo attempts to pressure me, G2 I combo in response to an exarch and he is just completely blown away. G3 comes down to the wire but I stall enough to get enough protection to Silence, Pact a Cryptic and win.
Round 4 - Esper
Guy is super confident and then gets killed in response to a rev, he realizes I'm paired down and just concedes to let me prize and so that he can go home. He wasn't a fan of the deck.
List is the one I posted above but with worse mana and no Serum Visions (2 Telling time, and one extra Sleight and Peer instead) The SB was also a bit different, the pact was moved to MD and I had tolaria west in the board along with no darkness, a Lab Maniac, a Grave Titan, and a Tormod's Crypt.
One other guy had the deck built (he has like 13 Modern decks) and was running 3 Geist out of the board to deal with Slaughter Games, as well as Night of Souls Betrayal instead of Drown in Sorrow, thoughts?
I want to upgrade my mana, get serum visions, get a single Dig Through Time to go along with the fetches (I saw it in some japanese lists)and eventually grab some Leylines to help shore up my discard matchups.
Gratz on your finish! I'm curious about LabMan and Grave Titan in your board--did you ever find yourself boarding them in? If so, for what matchups and how did it go?
Bauble cycles if you're not using it to recover from a discarded Lightning Storm. That's more relevant than beating life gain decks, which don't take up a large part of the meta.
LS+Conflagrate is two dead draws in your deck. LS+Bauble is just one.
Anyway, you should board out Bauble in postboard games if you have no use for it.
Gratz on your finish! I'm curious about LabMan and Grave Titan in your board--did you ever find yourself boarding them in? If so, for what matchups and how did it go?
Nope :/ Didn't end up running into decks with either Leyline or Slaughter Games or enough lifegain to warrant Labman (The Esper control player was whining about not having Leylines sometime during round 2 and I overheard him)I want to try running two Geist and one Titan though, I like it more than 3 Geist because of the possibility of having two creatures out and 6 Mana isn't too hard anyways.
I actually think that Labman is a much better answer to lifegain than Conflagrate though, since you generally have time to wait until you have 7 mana against the lifegain decks since they aren't as fast as most aggro decks, combo, drop Labman and Bauble (using SSG mana) for the win. Dropping Labman too early seems risky though because of Path, even if it isn't likely to stay in, and the one extra blue you need doesn't seem too rough.
Hey everybody. I've been following the thread for a while and decided to finally chirp in since we're talking about Lab Man.
Last week I played a small local tournament. Didn't finish as well as I have in the past, or should have. Anyways, I only had one Leyline, which was the cause of my poor finish, round 2 was against a BW deck with heavy discard...got ripped to shreds. So round 3 I get paired against the guy playing Soul Sisters. G1 he went to 50 something before I could combo, so I scooped (I only run LS main). I side in my Conflagrate and Laboratory Maniac I put in the side since I had spaces to fill. G2 I guess he decides to just rocket his life total up with three back to back to back Martyrs off a one land hand, hoping I'd scoop again, so I had time to build up the extra mana and hit the LabMan win. G3 I was able to combo off turn 3 with just enough to get him with LS, so I ended up going 2-1 before the cut...unfortunately my tiebreakers weren't good enough for Top 4...oh well.
What I will say is I immediately ordered my 3 remaining Leylines when I got home. They are absolutely essential and the LabMan win is awful...way too clunky. But it is awfully cute.
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And where I said "back when I played the deck," I meant "back when I played 8 fetches." I tried 8 fetches for awhile and it just never seemed great.
Edit: So I managed to combo off without playing any lands today. Mulliganned a landless hand into another landless hand, but it had 2 Angel's Grace, 2 Ad Nauseam and 2 Lotus Bloom. So I said screw it and went with it. Got Thoughtseized on turn 3 and he just conceded the moment he saw my hand.
URW Control
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Also a few posts above,
20 lands is fine, and I often cut to 18 in appropriate match-ups where Bosieju is dead land that self-inflicts and Tolaria West is a tapped Island. 22 seems a bit much. I've been rocking different variations of 20 ever since March and have run into no problems. In grindy blue match-ups you are allowed to play a lot of your lands and only hold up 7-10 lands (obviously not going all in, but most decks will play their shocks untapped against you anyway so the trade of playing a land over their fetch + shock is totally fine since you won't be shooting for a lot of damage).
I'm surprised people would go 22, even with Spellskite. Countless tournaments Spellskite has never got me once. Slaughter Pact game one against Twin and Pod decks that have it maindecked works, Hurkyl's Recall (or keeping in Pact) post-board is always fine, etc. Both those decks you should be siding into Dismember as well, so that's another cheap answer. The deck is mana intense yes, so just sculpt your plays carefully.
Edit: Last I posted 1-2 pages back, I took down FNM recently 5-1, which was fun. A few days later I self-eliminated myself at a PPTQ. 1-2 fair losses against my friend rocking Pod who just hit endless Discards game 3 (2x Thoughtseize, 1 Entomber Exarch, and something else... Sin Collector I think?). I beat Scapeshift in a matter of about 5 minutes. I mulled to 5 game one and won with a no lander (double Lotus Bloom backed by Pact, had to go for it because his 4th land was tapped so I figured I was screwed once he hit Cryptic mana). Then I accidentally self-eliminated against that tier 3 R/W Lockdown deck (which rarely ever "locks" down). Not a bad match-up, I've beat it before at GP's and FNM's. Game one he hit the Leyline turn 1, so I scooped rather than giving him information (tried to just hope that signaled I was on Burn or UR Delver) which I think he took the bait, because he sided into a bunch of mediocre cards. I got him game 2 even with 2x Leyline out because Echoing Truth remains our best S.B. card. Game 3 I mull, keep a 1 lander, and continue to not draw lands even after a Serum Vision. After struggling with my mana for a bit (still low on lands, and had to fire off a Prism to cast Unlife), I go for the combo while he just beating me with a Simian Spirit Guide. I draw my deck, and combo, and he asks if I deal with his Leyline (didn't have the spare amana for E-truth) that he had put really far aside that I hadn't even noticed. The tilt becomes real as I become visibly upset, and scoop, only to realize a minute later I hadn't played my land for land for turn, so I could played my plains, played Angel's Grace, then cast Patrcian's Scorn for free (it gets rid of Unlife but the Grace is still keeping me alive). Get rid of the Leyline, then shoot damage. Man, even after playing this deck for an entire year, 2nd at a PTQ, countless wins, losses, and many nights playtesting... I'm still learning this deck. Hahaha. I suck. Oh well, there will be more.
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Been playing around with the deck on cockatrice for the past few days and am planning on picking up the cards in a couple of days, I was wondering if anyone cared to critique my list or help show me what I could be doing better.
3 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Angel's Grace
1 Lightning Storm
1 Mystical Teachings
2 Pact of Negation
3 Peer Through Depths
1 Slaughter Pact
Artifacts
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
1 Conjurer's Bauble
Land
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
2 Polluted Delta
1 City of Brass
1 Halimar Depths
1 Flooded Strand
1 Pact of Negation
2 Darkness
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Duress
1 Patrician's Scorn
2 Silence
1 Wear // Tear
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Conflagrate
2 Echoing Truth
Looks pretty stock. I'd just move your Conjurer's Bauble to the sideboard and max out on Peer Through Depths. That card is an MVP in almost every game I play.
Also, I'd drop that Glacial Fortress for another Strand.
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That's fair. The tournament I lost to Spellskite was the first time I'd played the deck in a competitive setting, and I'd completely forgotten about my mainboard Pact. How many Dismembers do you have in the sideboard?
I'm going to a local tournament on January 3rd and an IQ on January 4th, so I'll make sure to post results!
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Alright, I just didn't find a list in the past few pages that wasn't running them, thanks
The variance between using fetches, temples, or some other choices of fast/filter/pain lands is mitigated through the artifacts. With lotus bloom, gemstone mine, and prism we almost always have the right colors on time. It's uncanny really how consistent it is.
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I think the biggest knock against the 8 Temple plan is the fact they enter tapped. You really want to have untapped lands for Turn 2 and/or Turn 3 so it's really important to keep the density of untapped lands high. I still MD Boseiju but I don't think keeping Tolaria MD works well with the Temples. I haven't had a problem with it, though, since this deck is pretty good at controlling its top card of the library.
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Round 1 - Angel Pod
Nervous as ****, I missplay G1 and give him a voice token he needs to speed up his clock by one, the AN I needed was the next card.... G2 I just durdle and my hand gets destroyed by thoughtseize and Entomber exarch. Feeling pretty bleh after this game I go sit outside for a bit to try and focus.
Round 2 - GR Tron
Hurray, easy matchup! G1 he has 3 Karns starting on T3 and kills my mana. Game two I learn he doesn't really know what I'm up to, he boarded in Blood moon, I sit around for a while while he's casting O-Stones and cracking relics until I get a pentad and combo him. G3 I have a T4 kill and just kill him.
Round 3 - UR Tempo Twin
Feeling better now, this guy has no idea what I'm doing but kills me G1 with a clique and 3 combo attempts to pressure me, G2 I combo in response to an exarch and he is just completely blown away. G3 comes down to the wire but I stall enough to get enough protection to Silence, Pact a Cryptic and win.
Round 4 - Esper
Guy is super confident and then gets killed in response to a rev, he realizes I'm paired down and just concedes to let me prize and so that he can go home. He wasn't a fan of the deck.
List is the one I posted above but with worse mana and no Serum Visions (2 Telling time, and one extra Sleight and Peer instead) The SB was also a bit different, the pact was moved to MD and I had tolaria west in the board along with no darkness, a Lab Maniac, a Grave Titan, and a Tormod's Crypt.
One other guy had the deck built (he has like 13 Modern decks) and was running 3 Geist out of the board to deal with Slaughter Games, as well as Night of Souls Betrayal instead of Drown in Sorrow, thoughts?
I want to upgrade my mana, get serum visions, get a single Dig Through Time to go along with the fetches (I saw it in some japanese lists)and eventually grab some Leylines to help shore up my discard matchups.
LS+Conflagrate is two dead draws in your deck. LS+Bauble is just one.
Anyway, you should board out Bauble in postboard games if you have no use for it.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Nope :/ Didn't end up running into decks with either Leyline or Slaughter Games or enough lifegain to warrant Labman (The Esper control player was whining about not having Leylines sometime during round 2 and I overheard him)I want to try running two Geist and one Titan though, I like it more than 3 Geist because of the possibility of having two creatures out and 6 Mana isn't too hard anyways.
I actually think that Labman is a much better answer to lifegain than Conflagrate though, since you generally have time to wait until you have 7 mana against the lifegain decks since they aren't as fast as most aggro decks, combo, drop Labman and Bauble (using SSG mana) for the win. Dropping Labman too early seems risky though because of Path, even if it isn't likely to stay in, and the one extra blue you need doesn't seem too rough.
Last week I played a small local tournament. Didn't finish as well as I have in the past, or should have. Anyways, I only had one Leyline, which was the cause of my poor finish, round 2 was against a BW deck with heavy discard...got ripped to shreds. So round 3 I get paired against the guy playing Soul Sisters. G1 he went to 50 something before I could combo, so I scooped (I only run LS main). I side in my Conflagrate and Laboratory Maniac I put in the side since I had spaces to fill. G2 I guess he decides to just rocket his life total up with three back to back to back Martyrs off a one land hand, hoping I'd scoop again, so I had time to build up the extra mana and hit the LabMan win. G3 I was able to combo off turn 3 with just enough to get him with LS, so I ended up going 2-1 before the cut...unfortunately my tiebreakers weren't good enough for Top 4...oh well.
What I will say is I immediately ordered my 3 remaining Leylines when I got home. They are absolutely essential and the LabMan win is awful...way too clunky. But it is awfully cute.