My store has been transitioning to more players and more competitive decks (finally!). So I'm going to be switching back to MB Goblin Guides instead of the more grindy Young Pyromancer. I'll see how that goes this Wednesday. Unless I feel like running my Wildfire deck... Regardless, eventually I will give the deck a run with the changes and let you guys know how it goes.
Can I ask the reasons for the Goblin Guides? I feel like they might just be eating too much aggro, or get chumped on turn 2 etc... What have your experiences with them been like?
Has anyone considered running Blood Moon main deck? I have been toying with the idea since I was put into a corner playing 4C Gifts and think if we run a couple mana dorks it might be doable.
Well considering that most Loam decks are 3 colours, if not 4 (playing Lingering Souls), then Blood Moon is going to hurt us probably more than it will hurt them. Depending on what version of the deck you are running, you will need to play a lot of filter lands (and other non-basics) to be able to get all of the mana requirements. Triple red for Assualt, double black for Pox and Lily, and green for Loam is near impossible with basics. Just like Capt. Nick said, you could go RG and try to have a smoother landbase, but then you will loose a lot of power that the deck has to offer.
I think the point of guide is that it's additional damage without any further mana investment. It allows him to use Loam and assault to clear the field of all the creatures that he needs to kill, while guide ensures that damage is still going to the face.
I think the point of guide is that it's additional damage without any further mana investment. It allows him to use Loam and assault to clear the field of all the creatures that he needs to kill, while guide ensures that damage is still going to the face.
I realize that the guide is for the additional damage, but I figure why not play something a bit more efficient, like Goyf? Yes there is the money issue, but at the same time the Guide will be revealing lands that are the opponents topdecks and that means that they will be only drawing action. This means you will have to be focusing all of your assualt burn on the (possible) creatures they draw and not sending it to their face. I just really wonder if it is possible to play such an aggro creature that has a drawback if the game gets any longer than turn 4-ish. I think that playing the traditional Jund creatures will give a bigger beating and be able to play into the mid-late game that the deck tends to get to because of it's grindy nature.
I like Goblin Guide for more competitive metas because it's a low mana investment for 4-8 damage. I was having trouble closing out games against Tier 1 decks, even when I got Assault and Loam together. I could do between 12-16 damage over a turn or two which is substantial but won't win you games. Goblin Guide gets in the additional points of damage to make the deck capable of consistent turn 4 kills. So basically, I can go for a kill, instead of having to throw my lands at creatures and grind out games. Which opens up the opponent into drawing an out against me. He opens up the ability to play a solid tempo deck with Mid-Game reach. The draw back is actually not that terrible either. I get to see almost every card going in to my opponent's hand, which lets me prepare for potential things to play around as well as just general information. If he's doing his job, then the game should be closed out before the extra lands the opponent may draw can become relevant. Since in the early turns you are only playing one spell a turn typically. I was consistently impressed with him back when I originally put it in. I started with him as a 3-of originally just as a "it might be nice to see one in a game" and quickly became a "I want this in every opening hand." So I bumped him up to a 4-of. It's really solid.
I like Goblin Guide for more competitive metas because it's a low mana investment for 4-8 damage. I was having trouble closing out games against Tier 1 decks, even when I got Assault and Loam together. I could do between 12-16 damage over a turn or two which is substantial but won't win you games. Goblin Guide gets in the additional points of damage to make the deck capable of consistent turn 4 kills. So basically, I can go for a kill, instead of having to throw my lands at creatures and grind out games. Which opens up the opponent into drawing an out against me. He opens up the ability to play a solid tempo deck with Mid-Game reach. The draw back is actually not that terrible either. I get to see almost every card going in to my opponent's hand, which lets me prepare for potential things to play around as well as just general information. If he's doing his job, then the game should be closed out before the extra lands the opponent may draw can become relevant. Since in the early turns you are only playing one spell a turn typically. I was consistently impressed with him back when I originally put it in. I started with him as a 3-of originally just as a "it might be nice to see one in a game" and quickly became a "I want this in every opening hand." So I bumped him up to a 4-of. It's really solid.
Ah, I was surprised to see Blue in there. Guess I should have looked at your sig... Thanks for the explanation, and have you tried the Goblin in a Jund shell before? I guess I can try it out to see if it works about the same, but my guess is that we would rather be Looting or using some discard turn 1 instead.
Isn't there better things than Faithless Looting? In my experience, I think I would want something like Grisly Salvage or Commune with the gods. Especially if it is just to fuel the graveyard. Sure the flashback is nice, but the same amount of cards hit the yard with only a 2 mana investment instead of 4 mana. Plus the fore-mentioned cards dig deep for creatures, or in the case of Commune, Seismic Assault. Also, in the creatureless jund decks with the splash of blue, Tracker's Instincts is another way to fuel the yard.
Am I thinking about this the wrong way? We can't do these things turn 1, but I feel like they would give better value overall for us. Plus, I find myself casting targeted discard turn 1 anyways.
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
You don't always have discard turn one, maximizing turn one plays is good.
With looting you can get decays/poxes/any spells without restrictions.
Looting can send cards from your hand into the grave. In my version with souls and pharaoh this is very relevant, for exemple when you don't have white mana for souls. Also you can pitch dead cards from your hand into the grave, with the 2 mana spells you're stuck with your hand.
Lootings that end up in the grave from dredging give value, the 2 mana spells do nothing when you dredge them.
The one mana cost is good with young pyro, you can cast pyro turn 3 and loot right away and get a token. Also the one mana cost vs 2 mana cost helps you maximize your mana, we always have stuff to do with mana, costing one less allows better plays, for exemple turn 3 looting + loam.
The fact that looting draws card instead of revealing them and putting them in your hand makes it better with loam since you can dredge them by replacing draws. I've won games by casting multiple loam in a turn with the help of looting.
Very good points. I very rarely have dead cards as I don't run souls and other splashes like that. I don't run young pyromancer either.
Using Loam twice in a turn is something extremely good, but that is late game stuff. I would like to hit into an seismic assault with the commune, but there might be good stuff in there that are unusable in the yard. I might do some testing with them along side looting, because when I run the creature less version, I really don't like the blue splash just for ravings.
In the creatureless version I think commune is probably better than ravings in order to find an assault so I can agree with you on that Dylan. I would never give up looting though since it is a very key turn 1 play to scuplting a perfect hand.
In the creatureless version I think commune is probably better than ravings in order to find an assault so I can agree with you on that Dylan. I would never give up looting though since it is a very key turn 1 play to scuplting a perfect hand.
Yeah, Looting is really nice. I did some games and Commune was a big help. It just seemed like Looting was that much better.
I'll continue testing though. Realistically, I will only be able to somewhat remotely afford the creatureless version in paper, so I will be doing a ton of testing with it on mtgo.
Well I think commune is probably better than ravings for the paper version as well. So perhaps I will test that next modern event tomorrow night.
I would definitely run it over ravings. It's really nice to be able to dig for an Assault and fill the yard at the same time.
Do you have the list handy?
I have been testing the last week with Coursers and Communes. My conclusion is that Courser and Young Pyromancer can work well in the same deck to an extent. The courser takes lands off the top, so we can dredge some instants and then flashback/retrace them and get a bunch of tokens. On the flipside, missing that first cast of the spell hurt the deck a bit. Maybe I was just playing it wrong so I'd want others opinions on this.
I also ran Commune with just Pyromancer and it flopped hard. There is too few targets, and as someone said earlier, just filling the yard for a turn wasn't good enough. The creatureless version was ok with it, but I found it to be rather underwhelming when not interacting with the opponent for a turn (aka playing discard or removing creatures).
Overall I would say that Commune with the Gods looks good on paper, but it doesn't preform as good as it possibly could. It did help me find Assualts from time to time, but not as much as you would think. Also being a sorcery hurt it because we already have so many cards competing for things to do on our turn such as Loam, Ravens Crime, casting Assualt and Lily's, that jamming another in there really stretched its focus. I think that it can be god in the right setting, but overall it wasn't what I had hoped it to be.
I have been testing the last week with Coursers and Communes. My conclusion is that Courser and Young Pyromancer can work well in the same deck to an extent. The courser takes lands off the top, so we can dredge some instants and then flashback/retrace them and get a bunch of tokens. On the flipside, missing that first cast of the spell hurt the deck a bit. Maybe I was just playing it wrong so I'd want others opinions on this.
I do think that Courser is a little weak when we have T2 Pyro, but often times I don't even want to cast Pyro on T2. When I have both in hand, which for some reason is rare, I usually just keep the Pyro in hand for a few turns so that I can get immediate value out of him by casting a spell after him, so I can still get something if they remove him.
I have been stuck on the pyromancer version. This is what my creatureless version looks like in theory with commune
Something that I think you should watch is that Abrupt Decay is way too valuable in Modern to not include maindecking them. They nit almost anything, so I'd suggest dropping the Bolts and Anger of the Gods for them. You will probably want to get a Ravens Crime more than a Glame Jab, so cutting 1 for the fourth Ravens Crime could be beneficial. Other than that it is pretty stock and close to what I was running when I was testing out Commune. The only thing is the lack of targets and the waste of a turn when you cast it in the creatureless version.
I don't run that list anymore so it's been a while since I started running the pyromancer list. When I did run the creaturless list that is what I ran and it usually never failed me as is. The U shocks I would probably drop as that was an oversight after dropping ravings
So since there hasn't been much discussion going on here I figured that I would throw some more ideas up in the air to see what people think.
Scythe Tiger is a one drop that destroys our tempo much like Small Pox, but provides huge beats. It would be for a version of loam that is more geared towards getting the opponent low with aggro and then finishing them with some burn to the face, rather than playing the super grindy game that Jund Loam seems to do. Just a thought after Goblin Guide was suggested as a way of getting in early damage. I feel as though it would be way too slow to be truly effective, but who knows?
Can I ask the reasons for the Goblin Guides? I feel like they might just be eating too much aggro, or get chumped on turn 2 etc... What have your experiences with them been like?
Well considering that most Loam decks are 3 colours, if not 4 (playing Lingering Souls), then Blood Moon is going to hurt us probably more than it will hurt them. Depending on what version of the deck you are running, you will need to play a lot of filter lands (and other non-basics) to be able to get all of the mana requirements. Triple red for Assualt, double black for Pox and Lily, and green for Loam is near impossible with basics. Just like Capt. Nick said, you could go RG and try to have a smoother landbase, but then you will loose a lot of power that the deck has to offer.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I realize that the guide is for the additional damage, but I figure why not play something a bit more efficient, like Goyf? Yes there is the money issue, but at the same time the Guide will be revealing lands that are the opponents topdecks and that means that they will be only drawing action. This means you will have to be focusing all of your assualt burn on the (possible) creatures they draw and not sending it to their face. I just really wonder if it is possible to play such an aggro creature that has a drawback if the game gets any longer than turn 4-ish. I think that playing the traditional Jund creatures will give a bigger beating and be able to play into the mid-late game that the deck tends to get to because of it's grindy nature.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 24
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Deprive
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
1 Jace Beleren
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Back to Nature
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Deprive
2 Anger of the Gods
I like Goblin Guide for more competitive metas because it's a low mana investment for 4-8 damage. I was having trouble closing out games against Tier 1 decks, even when I got Assault and Loam together. I could do between 12-16 damage over a turn or two which is substantial but won't win you games. Goblin Guide gets in the additional points of damage to make the deck capable of consistent turn 4 kills. So basically, I can go for a kill, instead of having to throw my lands at creatures and grind out games. Which opens up the opponent into drawing an out against me. He opens up the ability to play a solid tempo deck with Mid-Game reach. The draw back is actually not that terrible either. I get to see almost every card going in to my opponent's hand, which lets me prepare for potential things to play around as well as just general information. If he's doing his job, then the game should be closed out before the extra lands the opponent may draw can become relevant. Since in the early turns you are only playing one spell a turn typically. I was consistently impressed with him back when I originally put it in. I started with him as a 3-of originally just as a "it might be nice to see one in a game" and quickly became a "I want this in every opening hand." So I bumped him up to a 4-of. It's really solid.
Ah, I was surprised to see Blue in there. Guess I should have looked at your sig... Thanks for the explanation, and have you tried the Goblin in a Jund shell before? I guess I can try it out to see if it works about the same, but my guess is that we would rather be Looting or using some discard turn 1 instead.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Am I thinking about this the wrong way? We can't do these things turn 1, but I feel like they would give better value overall for us. Plus, I find myself casting targeted discard turn 1 anyways.
You don't always have discard turn one, maximizing turn one plays is good.
With looting you can get decays/poxes/any spells without restrictions.
Looting can send cards from your hand into the grave. In my version with souls and pharaoh this is very relevant, for exemple when you don't have white mana for souls. Also you can pitch dead cards from your hand into the grave, with the 2 mana spells you're stuck with your hand.
Lootings that end up in the grave from dredging give value, the 2 mana spells do nothing when you dredge them.
The one mana cost is good with young pyro, you can cast pyro turn 3 and loot right away and get a token. Also the one mana cost vs 2 mana cost helps you maximize your mana, we always have stuff to do with mana, costing one less allows better plays, for exemple turn 3 looting + loam.
The fact that looting draws card instead of revealing them and putting them in your hand makes it better with loam since you can dredge them by replacing draws. I've won games by casting multiple loam in a turn with the help of looting.
Using Loam twice in a turn is something extremely good, but that is late game stuff. I would like to hit into an seismic assault with the commune, but there might be good stuff in there that are unusable in the yard. I might do some testing with them along side looting, because when I run the creature less version, I really don't like the blue splash just for ravings.
I'll continue testing though. Realistically, I will only be able to somewhat remotely afford the creatureless version in paper, so I will be doing a ton of testing with it on mtgo.
I would definitely run it over ravings. It's really nice to be able to dig for an Assault and fill the yard at the same time.
Do you have the list handy?
I also ran Commune with just Pyromancer and it flopped hard. There is too few targets, and as someone said earlier, just filling the yard for a turn wasn't good enough. The creatureless version was ok with it, but I found it to be rather underwhelming when not interacting with the opponent for a turn (aka playing discard or removing creatures).
Overall I would say that Commune with the Gods looks good on paper, but it doesn't preform as good as it possibly could. It did help me find Assualts from time to time, but not as much as you would think. Also being a sorcery hurt it because we already have so many cards competing for things to do on our turn such as Loam, Ravens Crime, casting Assualt and Lily's, that jamming another in there really stretched its focus. I think that it can be god in the right setting, but overall it wasn't what I had hoped it to be.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Commune with the gods
4 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Trading Post
I have been stuck on the pyromancer version. This is what my creatureless version looks like in theory with commune
I do think that Courser is a little weak when we have T2 Pyro, but often times I don't even want to cast Pyro on T2. When I have both in hand, which for some reason is rare, I usually just keep the Pyro in hand for a few turns so that I can get immediate value out of him by casting a spell after him, so I can still get something if they remove him.
Current Modern:
BRGAssault LoamBRG
WUKrark Eggs(Balls of Steel)WU
Current EDH:
GSeshiro SnakesG//GEzuri ElvesG
WUBRGHorde of PlaneswalkersWUBRG
UBRNekusar the MindwheelerUBR
WUGRoon FlickerWUG
Something that I think you should watch is that Abrupt Decay is way too valuable in Modern to not include maindecking them. They nit almost anything, so I'd suggest dropping the Bolts and Anger of the Gods for them. You will probably want to get a Ravens Crime more than a Glame Jab, so cutting 1 for the fourth Ravens Crime could be beneficial. Other than that it is pretty stock and close to what I was running when I was testing out Commune. The only thing is the lack of targets and the waste of a turn when you cast it in the creatureless version.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Scythe Tiger is a one drop that destroys our tempo much like Small Pox, but provides huge beats. It would be for a version of loam that is more geared towards getting the opponent low with aggro and then finishing them with some burn to the face, rather than playing the super grindy game that Jund Loam seems to do. Just a thought after Goblin Guide was suggested as a way of getting in early damage. I feel as though it would be way too slow to be truly effective, but who knows?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge