i'd keep the bloodghasts in for now, yes he's useless, but so is vengevine and gravecrawler against them. nothing we have blocks.
most people seem to want to board wipe zoo, you'll need to be ready to go on the attack after that, our free creatures should be left in the graveyard while your digging for board wipe. once you force zoo into top decking, then gravecrawler, vengevine and ghast can do there thing.
my original list use to run graze of granite, i cut it, but post banning i may revisit using it mainboard for fighting both zoo and faeries. otherwise slagstorm can be your best friend in the sideboard.
if board wipe isn't your style, or your not convinced. cut something for 4 lightning bolts and 4 gatekeeper of malakir.
while gatekeeper swings the creature count into your favor. Fleshbag Marauder might be more useful, if you sack one of our 1cc to him, he can enable gravecrawler to come back later, and he sits there with a 3/1 body ready to chump and kill any of zoo's oncoming x/3's
----------------------
actually I bet zoo wouldn't like to see phyrexian crusader on the otherside of the table, now that I think about it.
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I used to run a dredge less jundvine list. 4-0 a couple fnm modern events. 12-18 people nothing crazy. However I used to run 2-3 main deck Legion Loyalist. Seems like this card would be really good in the new meta. His battalion trigger is all creatures get first strike and trample. Which is very relevant against zoo giving a VV first strike is pretty sweet. Additionally it also "can't be blocked by creature tokens. BW tokens is likely going to become more popular and with all the BitterBlossoms running around it will let us punch right the ought their flying chumpers.
i'd keep the bloodghasts in for now, yes he's useless, but so is vengevine and gravecrawler against them. nothing we have blocks.
most people seem to want to board wipe zoo, you'll need to be ready to go on the attack after that, our free creatures should be left in the graveyard while your digging for board wipe. once you force zoo into top decking, then gravecrawler, vengevine and ghast can do there thing.
my original list use to run graze of granite, i cut it, but post banning i may revisit using it mainboard for fighting both zoo and faeries. otherwise slagstorm can be your best friend in the sideboard.
if board wipe isn't your style, or your not convinced. cut something for 4 lightning bolts and 4 gatekeeper of malakir.
while gatekeeper swings the creature count into your favor. Fleshbag Marauder might be more useful, if you sack one of our 1cc to him, he can enable gravecrawler to come back later, and he sits there with a 3/1 body ready to chump and kill any of zoo's oncoming x/3's
----------------------
actually I bet zoo wouldn't like to see phyrexian crusader on the otherside of the table, now that I think about it.
Well if you board something in, you have to take something out, I think that blodghast might be our weakest card in that matchup. Vengevine can block ;).
Haakon with inversion doesn't sound bad at all actually. What would you take out for it?
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Haakon will probably eat a bolt and you'll even lose some life to him. About Bloodghasts, I've been having the impression that they aren't doing much most of the time. They just round up numbers (save for UWR control where a creature so easy to recur drives them mad) and I've even considered taking them out of the mainboard, but it isn't like I really need those slots. I guess they'll be the first ones to go out for sideboarding most of the time.
Been a little while guys, but I haven't given up on the deck in the meantime. Still really happy with my old mainboard and with the banning of DRS, I'm very interested in devoting some more time to the deck again. There hasn't been a whole lot of Modern events locally or within a few hours of me worth going too, so that's contributed as well. Anyways, going to be taking old faithful to a tournament this weekend and will let you know how it goes. The list for reference:
Just a couple sideboard changes. Have always been really happy with the mainboard and will keep it that way for the moment. I'm interested to see how the meta starts to shape with the unbannings and will adjust accordingly afterwards.
I tried the Haakon nameless inversion plan, and I've found that it's too slow. If you want to recur inversion the turn you get Haakon out you need 5 mana. If you don't recur inversion in that turn you leave yourself open to a bolt (which turns into a one mana searing blaze). So I don't like it. However it is nice that Haakon is a zombie.
Has anyone tried Vengeful Pharaoh?
Seems like it could be interesting, recurring removal with dredge guys that doesn't cost anything, but the creatures have to deal you damage for it to work. Maybe it would be good as a 2-of against zoo? I could just imagine casting a turn 1 looting discarding imp and this guy and potentially having removal the entire game.
EDIT:
So I got some testing in with pharaoh, and it's pretty good, not amazing, but descent. I think it's worth 1 slot. In one of my game with it against zoo I killed a nacatl and a goyf, after that he got out a sword of feast and famine and the pharaoh obviously did nothing, but it was pretty nice before that.
I've been looking at some other dredgevine lists, lists that have placed in dailies, and I don't see abrupt decay or anything. What do you guys do against rest in peace or even relic? I have 4 decay in my main and 4 inquisition in my board and I almost always board in the inquisition in post board games to get grave hate, but that's pretty much all I ever board.
Anyway, am I missing something? Some of these lists from mtgo can't deal with any resolved hate.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Just letting you know I am brewing up a BUG dredgevine list and will make some videos when I get it right Any good sideboard cards in blue you guys have in mind? I want to TRY to make the deck without faithless looting/red but losing ancient grudge and others is miserable no doubt.
I currently run a BUGvine list, it's more of an all in dredge list relying on Hedron Crab, Magus of the Bazaar, and Lotleth Troll to make the graveyard happen. If one of those resolves, especially magus, I'm one or two turns from just over running my opponent
I didn't have a sideboard as I was still trying to make the main deck work before I jumped into it. When I played this deck, I would smash most opponents game one, then utterly lose to sideboard.
Skaab Ruinator probably would've been an awesome card for this, but I was also toying with the idea of making the sideboard an entire switch to a pseudo Living End deck. Something like this
Side out loam, Salvages, the two basics and one breeding pool, and most of the two/one drops. In my mind, it felt like a good idea but I get the feeling in play, it would've been a bust. Though, it is something I would like to try, playing Dredgevine game one, then being able to swap to entire different playstyle games two and three
Cascading into anything other than Living End would be heartbreaking. Though hitting a free Troll off demonic dread and having a loaded yard and 1 mana up for a crawler could be narsty. I am going to play around with this if you don't mind.
Just a quick update. Went 2-2 drop yesterday with my list from the last page. Lost to Tron which is by far the worst matchup and Fairies due to variance. I had milled more than half of my deck and hit no Vengevines. All good and it happens. Not that upset.
Anyways, I realized yesterday that the Viscera Draggers are truly not required and they were the first cards that I sided out each game (this is normal though). The 4 Dregscape Zombies are more than enough to help recur the Gravecrawlers. This will open up 2 slots in the list. I'm thinking on trying out 2 Drown in Filth in their spot to start and going from there. There's another smaller Modern tournament in a couple weeks that I will most likely be taking this to again.
with deathrite shaman banned, I had to make some last minute changes to my list.
I dropped small pox because i don't have deathrite for quick mana recovery after turn 2. deathrite shaman was my primary plan for accelerating 4cc on turn 3 sometimes, definitely lost some power in my deck. I replaced small pox with 4 raven's crime and shaman with 4 goblin guide. goblin guide can be very good, but raven's crime was a poor choice on my part. result of last minute thinking.
probably going to drop out the raven's crimes for a 4th lotleth and maybe 3 inquisition of kozilek. I thought raven's crime was a decent because I could recast it if it got milled. the whole tournament i was constantly using it for bringing in sideboard. options. I never had a situation where i wanted to use it, nor would I have turned a game by recurring it.
i could use some opinions on how to restructure the deck in those two spots.
the goblin guide works well when used early or late game, two game last friday, i oppned with him and he took my opponent down to twelve life, leaving bloodghast and gravecrawler to finish the job. the second game this happened proved my point as well, but my opponent's rogue deck landed two slumbering dragon's early, and after the 4th attack, i couldn't attack anymore since one more attack would activate them and that would be 16 2 8/8's flying back at me the following turn, my deck wiffed by grisely salvageing abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse into the graveyard. beat him down game 3. ;);)
most of my loses recently have been to rogue decks, and geist of saint traft, I loved small pox in this deck because it could handle geist and other hexproof bastards, and 2 black is easy mana.
it confused me because without deathrite small pox doesn't seem as easy to work around on my side. so if i did keep it, what do I swap the goblin guide for? birds of paradise?
hence why i want advise the changes to those two slots could go either way
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I'm all in on the dredge plan game 1, game 2 I always always board in 4 thoughtsieze and I board in cards that just help.
Vengeful Pharaoh has been AMAZING against zoo. You usually get in a spot where you're constantly dredging stinkweed and playing it to kill their creatures until you can hit a bunch of vengevines off of crawlers, and pharaoh goes perfectly with that plan, it's extra removal.
This is quite soft to grave hate, however I can kill a rest in peace with a ray in the yard since rip has a trigger when it enters play, but you always have to keep green open. But honestly if you look at the lists in the established and proven section, NOBODY has more than 2 spots (if even) devoted to grave hate. I play on mtgo and I've had lots of people concede the match after game 1 because they have no hate and I smoked them game 1.
I think that lotleth troll is a very weak card right now. With path's and cryptic's being played in high numbers he is no longer a reliable discard outlet or a reliable blocker. Instead I've been using Phantasmagorian, it's a free discard outlet that you can loop (discard a phantasmagorian to another phantasmagorian), plus he's fat that you can cast if you get rip'ed or caged.
So since lotleth troll is out I've greatly reduced my dependence on green, I'm just playing one tomb for gnaw to the bone. Instead of grisly salvage, which I've always hated playing, I'm using Goblin Lore Grisly salvage only mills a max of 5. With goblin lore you can dredge 4 times, 4 TIMES, which is obviously huge and really helps accelerate this deck. Burning Inquiry is a cheaper version of it, but it has the added ability to screw up your opponent's draws as well. I've gotten rip's out of opponent's hands and I've even manascrewed people with it, which is hilarious.
Anyway this deck generally wins on turn 4, sometimes it's turn 5 if you brick on dredges, and sometimes you can win turn 3 if you get really lucky.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I'm all in on the dredge plan game 1, game 2 I always always board in 4 thoughtsieze and I board in cards that just help.
Vengeful Pharaoh has been AMAZING against zoo. You usually get in a spot where you're constantly dredging stinkweed and playing it to kill their creatures until you can hit a bunch of vengevines off of crawlers, and pharaoh goes perfectly with that plan, it's extra removal.
This is quite soft to grave hate, however I can kill a rest in peace with a ray in the yard since rip has a trigger when it enters play, but you always have to keep green open. But honestly if you look at the lists in the established and proven section, NOBODY has more than 2 spots (if even) devoted to grave hate. I play on mtgo and I've had lots of people concede the match after game 1 because they have no hate and I smoked them game 1.
I think that lotleth troll is a very weak card right now. With path's and cryptic's being played in high numbers he is no longer a reliable discard outlet or a reliable blocker. Instead I've been using Phantasmagorian, it's a free discard outlet that you can loop (discard a phantasmagorian to another phantasmagorian), plus he's fat that you can cast if you get rip'ed or caged.
So since lotleth troll is out I've greatly reduced my dependence on green, I'm just playing one tomb for gnaw to the bone. Instead of grisly salvage, which I've always hated playing, I'm using Goblin Lore Grisly salvage only mills a max of 5. With goblin lore you can dredge 4 times, 4 TIMES, which is obviously huge and really helps accelerate this deck. Burning Inquiry is a cheaper version of it, but it has the added ability to screw up your opponent's draws as well. I've gotten rip's out of opponent's hands and I've even manascrewed people with it, which is hilarious.
Anyway this deck generally wins on turn 4, sometimes it's turn 5 if you brick on dredges, and sometimes you can win turn 3 if you get really lucky.
I thought this was an interesting list, and I decided to give it a whirl. To say that my results were different would be a drastic understatement.
1. I hated Phantasmagorian and Burning Inquiry. There were times when I absolutely, positively needed a creature in play, and all I had was a 7-cost do-nothing that I could never dream of casting. While I like Goblin Lore, I was never happy casting Burning Inquiry past turn 1. Every other turn, I just wished I had Grisly Salvage or even Mulch or Tracker's Instinct.
2. Four Gravecrawlers and no other zombies? It was a disaster every time I saw three Gravecrawlers in my graveyard, none in hand, and thirty cards left in my library.
3. Stinkweed Imp -- Stinkweed exists in an awkward sweetspot. The deck was so light on immediate threats that I had to hold him in my hand to fend off my opponent's board. At three casting-cost, it also meant I wasn't dredging because I needed a draw to get more land. And dredging when I needed to draw one of my primary threats (Gravecrawler) was also awkward.
4. This deck is all in on Vengevine. If two hit the red zone early enough, I often won. But a whiff at any point - only one in the 'yard, only able to cast one creature, all buried in the bottom half of my library - and the deck just shuts down. A Bitterblossom or any x/3 was a massive stop sign to a board of 2/1s.
5. The mana base wasn't doing me any favors. (PS. Your list has only 18 land.)
On paper, I really liked the look of this deck, but, in practice, I found the build to be super awkward. I really wonder how you got it to work. Even with my best draws, I struggled to keep up against Faeries and Zoo. By the time I got online, I was often too far behind to make a dent on the board or in life totals. Even a fifth turn win was rare; a turn four win seems like fantasy.
I thought this was an interesting list, and I decided to give it a whirl. To say that my results were different would be a drastic understatement.
1. I hated Phantasmagorian and Burning Inquiry. There were times when I absolutely, positively needed a creature in play, and all I had was a 7-cost do-nothing that I could never dream of casting. While I like Goblin Lore, I was never happy casting Burning Inquiry past turn 1. Every other turn, I just wished I had Grisly Salvage or even Mulch or Tracker's Instinct.
2. Four Gravecrawlers and no other zombies? It was a disaster every time I saw three Gravecrawlers in my graveyard, none in hand, and thirty cards left in my library.
3. Stinkweed Imp -- Stinkweed exists in an awkward sweetspot. The deck was so light on immediate threats that I had to hold him in my hand to fend off my opponent's board. At three casting-cost, it also meant I wasn't dredging because I needed a draw to get more land. And dredging when I needed to draw one of my primary threats (Gravecrawler) was also awkward.
4. This deck is all in on Vengevine. If two hit the red zone early enough, I often won. But a whiff at any point - only one in the 'yard, only able to cast one creature, all buried in the bottom half of my library - and the deck just shuts down. A Bitterblossom or any x/3 was a massive stop sign to a board of 2/1s.
5. The mana base wasn't doing me any favors. (PS. Your list has only 18 land.)
On paper, I really liked the look of this deck, but, in practice, I found the build to be super awkward. I really wonder how you got it to work. Even with my best draws, I struggled to keep up against Faeries and Zoo. By the time I got online, I was often too far behind to make a dent on the board or in life totals. Even a fifth turn win was rare; a turn four win seems like fantasy.
Woops I missed some important things in my list.
I have 2 dregscape zombies with the creatures (if you noticed I only have 26 in there when I said 28). Dregscape is incredibly important because you unearth him and then you can cast 2 crawlers to trigger all the vengevines.
I understand with that list why inquiry is bad because you don't have a way to get the crawlers from the yard, but with dregscape it's a different story, he really brings the whole thing together. Burning inquiry basically reads as "dredge 3 times, discard the dredgers". It's also another faithless looting to try to get your yard started turn 1.
With this deck you should be dredging every chance you get unless you only have 1 land or no red source. This is why phantasmagorian is great, because you can discard your dredgers, I'm not going to lie I don't use him often, but there are times when you will be very happy that he's in here to allow you to keep dredging.
In that list I actually had 3 Dakmor Salvage, and I don't remember what other land I had in there was. I have since changed my mana base, because I would get openers without having access to red, or red and blue if I got a crab in the opener.
So here's my new manabase, not much different but it's a lot better.
Fae can be a difficult match up if they cast mistbind on the turn you want to trigger your vengevines, or if they can chain cryptic commands, but that's the case with every deck. We do have bloodghast to keep pressure on them. And it's usually a good match up, they have to chain cryptics to win.
Zoo is a good matchup though. You want to dredge stinkweed and play it from turn 3 on, until you can trigger enough vengevines to get past blockers for lethal. Post board this matchup is easier with gnaw to the bone and vengeful pharaoh. I generally end games against zoo at 34+ life because of the gnaws.
Obviously this deck doesn't work without dregscape zombie, and I'm sorry you tested it without him, but he pulls the whole deck together. A turn 4 win is on the goldfish, you can obviously pull that off against a lot of decks, but against zoo, for example, they can be faster than you, so you have to deal with their board by casting imps or using gnaw to by time.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Is Demon of Death's Gate in here just as a card that could be cast if it's in your opener, or is there some way you plan on recurring him? I don't understand why he's in here, it would be awesome to cast him from the yard though. Dangerous Wager seems like it could be good, but I'd be scared that I'd lose either a third land to recur the crawlers or something like a salvage, troll etc. You certainly can't be on the demon plan with wager unless I'm missing something.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Yeah Demon's in the opening hand, or put back in library with Golgari Thug. Often they end up being a +1 counter on the Troll, and usually the first thing I side out. However I have found that occasionally being able to drop a demon on turn 3 or 4 works pretty well to add a bunch of pressure. Usually they get pathed or something similar though. I've got a bit of a soft spot for alternate casting costs
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most people seem to want to board wipe zoo, you'll need to be ready to go on the attack after that, our free creatures should be left in the graveyard while your digging for board wipe. once you force zoo into top decking, then gravecrawler, vengevine and ghast can do there thing.
my original list use to run graze of granite, i cut it, but post banning i may revisit using it mainboard for fighting both zoo and faeries. otherwise slagstorm can be your best friend in the sideboard.
if board wipe isn't your style, or your not convinced. cut something for 4 lightning bolts and 4 gatekeeper of malakir.
while gatekeeper swings the creature count into your favor. Fleshbag Marauder might be more useful, if you sack one of our 1cc to him, he can enable gravecrawler to come back later, and he sits there with a 3/1 body ready to chump and kill any of zoo's oncoming x/3's
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actually I bet zoo wouldn't like to see phyrexian crusader on the otherside of the table, now that I think about it.
add Haakon, Stromgald Scourge and you can replay phyrexian crusader as well as use the nameless inversion plan.
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Thoughts?
Well if you board something in, you have to take something out, I think that blodghast might be our weakest card in that matchup. Vengevine can block ;).
Haakon with inversion doesn't sound bad at all actually. What would you take out for it?
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Slitherhead
4 Gravecrawler
4 Faithless Looting
4 Vengevine
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Viscera Dragger
2 Golgari Thug
3 Lightning Axe
3 Darkblast
4 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Stomping Ground
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Swamp
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
1 Lightning Axe
3 Ground Seal
2 Gnaw to the Bone
Just a couple sideboard changes. Have always been really happy with the mainboard and will keep it that way for the moment. I'm interested to see how the meta starts to shape with the unbannings and will adjust accordingly afterwards.
Has anyone tried Vengeful Pharaoh?
Seems like it could be interesting, recurring removal with dredge guys that doesn't cost anything, but the creatures have to deal you damage for it to work. Maybe it would be good as a 2-of against zoo? I could just imagine casting a turn 1 looting discarding imp and this guy and potentially having removal the entire game.
EDIT:
So I got some testing in with pharaoh, and it's pretty good, not amazing, but descent. I think it's worth 1 slot. In one of my game with it against zoo I killed a nacatl and a goyf, after that he got out a sword of feast and famine and the pharaoh obviously did nothing, but it was pretty nice before that.
I've been looking at some other dredgevine lists, lists that have placed in dailies, and I don't see abrupt decay or anything. What do you guys do against rest in peace or even relic? I have 4 decay in my main and 4 inquisition in my board and I almost always board in the inquisition in post board games to get grave hate, but that's pretty much all I ever board.
Anyway, am I missing something? Some of these lists from mtgo can't deal with any resolved hate.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
4 Vengevine
4 Magus of the Bazaar
4 Hedron Crab
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Grave Crawler
3 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Thug
3 Stinkweed Imp
2 Fatestitcher
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Life from the Loam
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flat
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Mutavault
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
1 Forest
I didn't have a sideboard as I was still trying to make the main deck work before I jumped into it. When I played this deck, I would smash most opponents game one, then utterly lose to sideboard.
Skaab Ruinator probably would've been an awesome card for this, but I was also toying with the idea of making the sideboard an entire switch to a pseudo Living End deck. Something like this
3 Mountain shocks
3 Living End
3 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
3 Large Creatures
Side out loam, Salvages, the two basics and one breeding pool, and most of the two/one drops. In my mind, it felt like a good idea but I get the feeling in play, it would've been a bust. Though, it is something I would like to try, playing Dredgevine game one, then being able to swap to entire different playstyle games two and three
:symb::symr::symg: Living End
Delver
RDW
Anyways, I realized yesterday that the Viscera Draggers are truly not required and they were the first cards that I sided out each game (this is normal though). The 4 Dregscape Zombies are more than enough to help recur the Gravecrawlers. This will open up 2 slots in the list. I'm thinking on trying out 2 Drown in Filth in their spot to start and going from there. There's another smaller Modern tournament in a couple weeks that I will most likely be taking this to again.
I dropped small pox because i don't have deathrite for quick mana recovery after turn 2. deathrite shaman was my primary plan for accelerating 4cc on turn 3 sometimes, definitely lost some power in my deck. I replaced small pox with 4 raven's crime and shaman with 4 goblin guide. goblin guide can be very good, but raven's crime was a poor choice on my part. result of last minute thinking.
heres the current list
4 gravecrawler
4 bloodghast
4 vengevine
3 lotleth troll
2 falkenrath aristocrat
4 grisely salvage
1 life from the loam
4 raven's crime
4 lightning bolt
2 abrupt decay
19 other lands
probably going to drop out the raven's crimes for a 4th lotleth and maybe 3 inquisition of kozilek. I thought raven's crime was a decent because I could recast it if it got milled. the whole tournament i was constantly using it for bringing in sideboard. options. I never had a situation where i wanted to use it, nor would I have turned a game by recurring it.
i could use some opinions on how to restructure the deck in those two spots.
the goblin guide works well when used early or late game, two game last friday, i oppned with him and he took my opponent down to twelve life, leaving bloodghast and gravecrawler to finish the job. the second game this happened proved my point as well, but my opponent's rogue deck landed two slumbering dragon's early, and after the 4th attack, i couldn't attack anymore since one more attack would activate them and that would be 16 2 8/8's flying back at me the following turn, my deck wiffed by grisely salvageing abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse into the graveyard. beat him down game 3. ;);)
most of my loses recently have been to rogue decks, and geist of saint traft, I loved small pox in this deck because it could handle geist and other hexproof bastards, and 2 black is easy mana.
it confused me because without deathrite small pox doesn't seem as easy to work around on my side. so if i did keep it, what do I swap the goblin guide for? birds of paradise?
hence why i want advise the changes to those two slots could go either way
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has anyone tried running phyrexian arena in the deck?
might be some potential when mixed with the dredge golgari thug and stinkweed imp.
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[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
2 Watery Grave
3 Blood Crypt
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Swamp
Creatures: 28
4 Gravecrawler
4 Hedron Crab
4 Bloodghast
2 Dregscape Zombie
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Vengevine
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Faithless Looting
4 Goblin Lore
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Lingering Souls
2 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
I'm all in on the dredge plan game 1, game 2 I always always board in 4 thoughtsieze and I board in cards that just help.
Vengeful Pharaoh has been AMAZING against zoo. You usually get in a spot where you're constantly dredging stinkweed and playing it to kill their creatures until you can hit a bunch of vengevines off of crawlers, and pharaoh goes perfectly with that plan, it's extra removal.
This is quite soft to grave hate, however I can kill a rest in peace with a ray in the yard since rip has a trigger when it enters play, but you always have to keep green open. But honestly if you look at the lists in the established and proven section, NOBODY has more than 2 spots (if even) devoted to grave hate. I play on mtgo and I've had lots of people concede the match after game 1 because they have no hate and I smoked them game 1.
I think that lotleth troll is a very weak card right now. With path's and cryptic's being played in high numbers he is no longer a reliable discard outlet or a reliable blocker. Instead I've been using Phantasmagorian, it's a free discard outlet that you can loop (discard a phantasmagorian to another phantasmagorian), plus he's fat that you can cast if you get rip'ed or caged.
So since lotleth troll is out I've greatly reduced my dependence on green, I'm just playing one tomb for gnaw to the bone. Instead of grisly salvage, which I've always hated playing, I'm using Goblin Lore Grisly salvage only mills a max of 5. With goblin lore you can dredge 4 times, 4 TIMES, which is obviously huge and really helps accelerate this deck. Burning Inquiry is a cheaper version of it, but it has the added ability to screw up your opponent's draws as well. I've gotten rip's out of opponent's hands and I've even manascrewed people with it, which is hilarious.
Anyway this deck generally wins on turn 4, sometimes it's turn 5 if you brick on dredges, and sometimes you can win turn 3 if you get really lucky.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I thought this was an interesting list, and I decided to give it a whirl. To say that my results were different would be a drastic understatement.
1. I hated Phantasmagorian and Burning Inquiry. There were times when I absolutely, positively needed a creature in play, and all I had was a 7-cost do-nothing that I could never dream of casting. While I like Goblin Lore, I was never happy casting Burning Inquiry past turn 1. Every other turn, I just wished I had Grisly Salvage or even Mulch or Tracker's Instinct.
2. Four Gravecrawlers and no other zombies? It was a disaster every time I saw three Gravecrawlers in my graveyard, none in hand, and thirty cards left in my library.
3. Stinkweed Imp -- Stinkweed exists in an awkward sweetspot. The deck was so light on immediate threats that I had to hold him in my hand to fend off my opponent's board. At three casting-cost, it also meant I wasn't dredging because I needed a draw to get more land. And dredging when I needed to draw one of my primary threats (Gravecrawler) was also awkward.
4. This deck is all in on Vengevine. If two hit the red zone early enough, I often won. But a whiff at any point - only one in the 'yard, only able to cast one creature, all buried in the bottom half of my library - and the deck just shuts down. A Bitterblossom or any x/3 was a massive stop sign to a board of 2/1s.
5. The mana base wasn't doing me any favors. (PS. Your list has only 18 land.)
On paper, I really liked the look of this deck, but, in practice, I found the build to be super awkward. I really wonder how you got it to work. Even with my best draws, I struggled to keep up against Faeries and Zoo. By the time I got online, I was often too far behind to make a dent on the board or in life totals. Even a fifth turn win was rare; a turn four win seems like fantasy.
Current list:
2x Demon of Death's Gate
4x Dregscape Zombie
4x Golgari Thug
4x Gravecrawler
4x Lotleth Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
Instant (7)
3x Dangerous Wager
4x Grisly Salvage
4x Blood Crypt
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Stomping Ground
4x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
Sorcery (7)
3x Faithless Looting
4x Life from the Loam
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ancient Grudge
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Ground Seal
3x Smallpox
Woops I missed some important things in my list.
I have 2 dregscape zombies with the creatures (if you noticed I only have 26 in there when I said 28). Dregscape is incredibly important because you unearth him and then you can cast 2 crawlers to trigger all the vengevines.
I understand with that list why inquiry is bad because you don't have a way to get the crawlers from the yard, but with dregscape it's a different story, he really brings the whole thing together. Burning inquiry basically reads as "dredge 3 times, discard the dredgers". It's also another faithless looting to try to get your yard started turn 1.
With this deck you should be dredging every chance you get unless you only have 1 land or no red source. This is why phantasmagorian is great, because you can discard your dredgers, I'm not going to lie I don't use him often, but there are times when you will be very happy that he's in here to allow you to keep dredging.
In that list I actually had 3 Dakmor Salvage, and I don't remember what other land I had in there was. I have since changed my mana base, because I would get openers without having access to red, or red and blue if I got a crab in the opener.
So here's my new manabase, not much different but it's a lot better.
2 Watery Grave
3 Blood crypt
2 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Swamp
Fae can be a difficult match up if they cast mistbind on the turn you want to trigger your vengevines, or if they can chain cryptic commands, but that's the case with every deck. We do have bloodghast to keep pressure on them. And it's usually a good match up, they have to chain cryptics to win.
Zoo is a good matchup though. You want to dredge stinkweed and play it from turn 3 on, until you can trigger enough vengevines to get past blockers for lethal. Post board this matchup is easier with gnaw to the bone and vengeful pharaoh. I generally end games against zoo at 34+ life because of the gnaws.
Obviously this deck doesn't work without dregscape zombie, and I'm sorry you tested it without him, but he pulls the whole deck together. A turn 4 win is on the goldfish, you can obviously pull that off against a lot of decks, but against zoo, for example, they can be faster than you, so you have to deal with their board by casting imps or using gnaw to by time.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Is Demon of Death's Gate in here just as a card that could be cast if it's in your opener, or is there some way you plan on recurring him? I don't understand why he's in here, it would be awesome to cast him from the yard though. Dangerous Wager seems like it could be good, but I'd be scared that I'd lose either a third land to recur the crawlers or something like a salvage, troll etc. You certainly can't be on the demon plan with wager unless I'm missing something.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Paying 6 life for the demon with that amount of shocklands seems brave.