I'm pretty much sold on Condemn. Played it enough in EDH to know it's good. It's certainly situational, but it works against the decks where you want more removal.
Has anyone tried Paladin en-Vec over (or with) Mirran Crusader? Obviously the loss of double strike is huge but being able to dodge lightning bolt seems very relevant and there isn't really much green removal (outside abrupt decay which both stop anyway). My initial gut feeling is that it isn't worth it since it can't hold back Goyf.
I'd like to hear if anyone else has experience with him.
I brought up Fiendslayer Paladin awhile back as an option which is strictly superior to en-vec for the purposes of dodging removal but it was shot down immediately on the grounds of being too slow. I never tested with it but I still feel its a viable sideboard card and I do intend to give it a try at some point.
EDIT: Especially with delver getting treasure cruise and how close that matchup was before I will probably try it out sometime this week. A lifelinker that dodges most or all of their on board removal is quite valuable in that matchup.
I brought up Fiendslayer Paladin awhile back as an option which is strictly superior to en-vec for the purposes of dodging removal but it was shot down immediately on the grounds of being too slow. I never tested with it but I still feel its a viable sideboard card and I do intend to give it a try at some point.
EDIT: Especially with delver getting treasure cruise and how close that matchup was before I will probably try it out sometime this week. A lifelinker that dodges most or all of their on board removal is quite valuable in that matchup.
Fiendslayer Paladin is vulnerable to things like Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods which Paladin en-Vec isn't but Lifelink is probably worth that price. I can't think of many B or R creatures that get significant play that would make the actual protection of en-Vec relevant. That is, except Phyrexian Obliterator but protection is not much help there. Now if there are Tribal Zombies about, en-Vec might be your man.
I'm not sure either belong anywhere but Tribal Knights, to be honest. To be clear, I'm not knocking Knights, I love my Knights, I play my Knights, but I don't play any of them outside of the Tribe.
I like Kor Firewalker better than either of the Pro-Red knights mentioned above. It comes down a turn earlier, has full-on Pro Red instead of Fiendslayer "kindof Pro-Red", and it will gain you a fair amount of life. It also has the benefit of being very useful vs Burn decks. I'm not sure that I'd maindeck it, but I'm currently running two in my sideboard.
On a broader note, is anyone making any changes to shore up their Delver matchup? It's getting a lot of hype right now, and it's always seemed like a rough matchup for us. I've upped my Thalia count to 3 for JA Storm, and those are also good vs Delver. I've also got the two Firewalkers and 1 Mark of Asylum in the SB. Anyone else have any cool tech?
For really dedicated delver hate, Skylasher is a card but it dies to any of their burn. Bow of Nylea has been pretty good for me too.
I think post-board I would board in Rest in Peace to turn off their Treasure Cruises, Grim lavamancer and snapcaster mages.
Went 1-3 last Thursday with this 'budget-ish' list. Would've been 2-2 had I made one block differently versus Infect. I'm pretty happy considering that was the first I've played Hatebear, first time I've played against Infect and later during a 'friendly' playtesting session, i beat that Jeskai Ascendancy combo first try, without any sort of plays outside the normal scope of this deck.
Changes so far are: replaced Abolishers with Voice of Resurgence which does the same job and leaves a body behind when they eventually kill it, replaced one Revoker with another Guardian Seraph and replaced Gavony with Cathedral of War as the only time I had enough mana to activate it, I was already winning. Eventually I will buy one Linvala and hopefully one or two Wilt-Leafs to pump my guys for the attack.
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For those looking forward to my Primer update: I've decided to wait until after GP Madrid, which is mid-November. I will be able to give a better breakdown of the meta and card choices.
Bow does not seem relevant to me. Too slow vs Burn and no (really) relevant ability vs UR
Mark of Asylum maybe "ok" vs UR, but not vs burn.
Kinda agree on Chalice, but you have to remember that you cant handle their Pyromancer then (you cant path it then, spells still are cast, so he still produces tokens en masse, AND he still can delve those countered spells)
Agree on Kor Firewalker
More suggestions?
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Bow does not seem relevant to me. Too slow vs Burn and no (really) relevant ability vs UR
Mark of Asylum maybe "ok" vs UR, but not vs burn.
Kinda agree on Chalice, but you have to remember that you cant handle their Pyromancer then (you cant path it then, spells still are cast, so he still produces tokens en masse, AND he still can delve those countered spells)
Agree on Kor Firewalker
More suggestions?
The Bow's damage v fliers is definitely relevant v Insectile Aberration. Hatebears is typically very weak against fliers.
Additionally, I've always found Chalice of the Void to be a trap. Its extremely dependent on when you draw it and does nothing about things in play nor stop pyromancer tokens, as you stated. Additionally, hatebears also runs a lot of 1/2/3 cmc cards which you'll end up turning off for yourself while not really doing all that much to the opponent.
Leyline of Sanctity is also an option here but as I've stated previously in the thread, you need to run a lot of copies in your sideboard to allow not having to mull to 4 cards to have it in the opening hand. I don't like dedicating so many slots to the same card, but thats personal preference.
Phyrexian Unlife works as well assuming you have some way of getting life back over 0. Makes you pretty hard to kill.
I'm personally having a hard time moving forward with the deck right now. The way the meta is shaping up, being full of Burn and UR Delver, my deck is going to be making some drastic changes. I don't really have much to post about right now. Life gain seems good, as does recursive creatures, so I am leaning towards Kitchen Finks. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is also looking really strong right now. Loxodon Smiter is still strong, even though counters and forced discard seem to be at an all time low. The 4/4 he brings to the table is still really solid at 3 cmc. Qasali Pridemage is also looking really good for beating Eidolon of the Great Revel and Jeskai Ascendancy, among other things (like everything in Affinity). We also need ways to hate on graveyards, since Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time are now cards. Historically, I went with Scavenging Ooze, but it might be time to bring Dryad Militant out of the woodwork in addition. I'm also liking the extra pressure put on with Wilt-Leaf Liege, so maybe it's time to take a more aggressive approach.
Totally agree on the bad choices you listed - would not play any of those right now.
I have been thinking about Militant some time now too, and have not yet come to a conclusion what to cut. I have been thinking about cutting the third Ooze for a Dryad, cutting a mindcensor for another one.
Mindcensor is just bad vs burn as well as uwr. Will go down to playing 2 i guess.
Do you think we need the full set of Dryad? Also, what would you cut for Wilt-Leafs? I assume most likely Baneslayer(and Sigarda if your still playing her?). A problem here is, that every deck that can should up its AngerOfTheGods/Pyroclasm/VolcanicFallout count right now, which will hit even harder on Hatebears if you are also playing Dryads.
With the current boost for Scapeshift/Twin/UR and Burn (by DigThroughTime and or Treasure Cruise), i think spellskite is looking a bit better again. Went up to 2 maindeck again. He is a good wall and turns bolts to the face into shocks.
My Thalia count went up to 3 maindeck (and none sideboard), which felt perfectly fine. She is boss right now.
I've been playing with 1 Liege for a while now, and will probably cut a Linvala for a second. I don't know if I would run more than 2, but I did run 3 for a while and felt it was always producing solid pressure. I might also go back to a 2 of Baneslayer instead of a 1/1 split with Sigarda, or cut them completely to go for a more aggressive approach with Dryad Militant as a 2-3 of. Off the top of my head maybe:
I'm not sure if Spellskite is right, but with all the removal going around it's not a bad choice. It's just not aggressive though, which is where I think we want to be. Auriok Champion could be really good here, and Kor Firewalker is another solid choice that I forgot to mention. I'm definitely upping my Firewalker count in the sideboard to 2-3. I'm going to give some time and come up with something after the results of GP Madrid.
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I'm located in Canada =(.
Modern
WDeath & TaxesW
GWSelesnya MidrangeGW
Also, I'm not a fan of Serra Angel, Baneslayer is much better. Note that Restoration Angel can't blink either of them however.
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Condemn is definitely a hoot in Commander.
Crib Swap is a bit steep a 2W, but it doesn't have the limitations the others have. It also pumps Tarmogoyf, which may be a negative in context.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'd like to hear if anyone else has experience with him.
EDIT: Especially with delver getting treasure cruise and how close that matchup was before I will probably try it out sometime this week. A lifelinker that dodges most or all of their on board removal is quite valuable in that matchup.
GUGEdric, Spymaster of Trest - Elfball
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic- Doomsday!
RWUEphara, God of the Polis - Blink + Control
GBGGlissa, the Traitor - Stax & Lands
URGMaelstrom Wanderer - Goodstuff RUG
RGWMayael the Anima - Timmy
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher - The One Hit Wonder
RGWMarath, Will of the Wild - Old-school Enchantress Hate
RWRAurelia, the Warleader - Equipment Aggro
GGGReki, the History of Kamigawa - Legends + Banding
UBRSedris, the Traitor King - Creatures with : Ability
BUBPhenax, God of Deception - Mill
*Sidenote, I specifically excluded infinite combos from all these decks with the exception of Marath and the squirrel nest + Earthcraft combo.
Looking for something Aggressive in modern? Try - BR Aggro
Fiendslayer Paladin is vulnerable to things like Pyroclasm and Anger of the Gods which Paladin en-Vec isn't but Lifelink is probably worth that price. I can't think of many B or R creatures that get significant play that would make the actual protection of en-Vec relevant. That is, except Phyrexian Obliterator but protection is not much help there. Now if there are Tribal Zombies about, en-Vec might be your man.
I'm not sure either belong anywhere but Tribal Knights, to be honest. To be clear, I'm not knocking Knights, I love my Knights, I play my Knights, but I don't play any of them outside of the Tribe.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
On a broader note, is anyone making any changes to shore up their Delver matchup? It's getting a lot of hype right now, and it's always seemed like a rough matchup for us. I've upped my Thalia count to 3 for JA Storm, and those are also good vs Delver. I've also got the two Firewalkers and 1 Mark of Asylum in the SB. Anyone else have any cool tech?
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
I think post-board I would board in Rest in Peace to turn off their Treasure Cruises, Grim lavamancer and snapcaster mages.
Went 1-3 last Thursday with this 'budget-ish' list. Would've been 2-2 had I made one block differently versus Infect. I'm pretty happy considering that was the first I've played Hatebear, first time I've played against Infect and later during a 'friendly' playtesting session, i beat that Jeskai Ascendancy combo first try, without any sort of plays outside the normal scope of this deck.
4 Temple Garden
4 Razoerverge
4 Brushland
2 Wildwood
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Ghost Quart.
1 Tec Edge
1 Gavony
4 Birds
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Arbiter
3 Thalia
3 Revoker
3 Pridemage
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Hushwing
4 Smiter
1 Guardian Seraph
1 Windborn Muse
4 Path
2 Avoid Fate (it does work!)
Changes so far are: replaced Abolishers with Voice of Resurgence which does the same job and leaves a body behind when they eventually kill it, replaced one Revoker with another Guardian Seraph and replaced Gavony with Cathedral of War as the only time I had enough mana to activate it, I was already winning. Eventually I will buy one Linvala and hopefully one or two Wilt-Leafs to pump my guys for the attack.
BWR THE ARISTAHCRATZ!
GBURThe EPIC StormRUBG
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What are the hoser cards, that hose BOTH U/R and BURN - besides Thalia?
Chalice on 1
Kor Firewalker
Mark of Asylum
Even Bow of Nylea
Worship and Mark of Asylum do wonders individually, better together.
Rest in Peace to take out their Treasure Cruise ability
Bow of Nylea is decent if you can get it going. I found that having the mana wasn't always working out for me, for whatever reason.
Celestial Purge
Choke
Thrun, the Last Troll
Engineered Explosives
Qasali Pridemage - kills Eidolon of the Great Revel
I don't think Thalia hoses those match-ups all that much. Its pretty easy for them to kill her if they need to.
Mark of Asylum maybe "ok" vs UR, but not vs burn.
Kinda agree on Chalice, but you have to remember that you cant handle their Pyromancer then (you cant path it then, spells still are cast, so he still produces tokens en masse, AND he still can delve those countered spells)
Agree on Kor Firewalker
More suggestions?
The Bow's damage v fliers is definitely relevant v Insectile Aberration. Hatebears is typically very weak against fliers.
Additionally, I've always found Chalice of the Void to be a trap. Its extremely dependent on when you draw it and does nothing about things in play nor stop pyromancer tokens, as you stated. Additionally, hatebears also runs a lot of 1/2/3 cmc cards which you'll end up turning off for yourself while not really doing all that much to the opponent.
Leyline of Sanctity is also an option here but as I've stated previously in the thread, you need to run a lot of copies in your sideboard to allow not having to mull to 4 cards to have it in the opening hand. I don't like dedicating so many slots to the same card, but thats personal preference.
Phyrexian Unlife works as well assuming you have some way of getting life back over 0. Makes you pretty hard to kill.
Cards that look bad right now: Student of Warfare, Voice of Resurgence, Gaddock Teeg, Phyrexian Revoker, Mirran Crusader, Hushwing Gryff, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Sigarda, Host of Herons.
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I have been thinking about Militant some time now too, and have not yet come to a conclusion what to cut. I have been thinking about cutting the third Ooze for a Dryad, cutting a mindcensor for another one.
Mindcensor is just bad vs burn as well as uwr. Will go down to playing 2 i guess.
Do you think we need the full set of Dryad? Also, what would you cut for Wilt-Leafs? I assume most likely Baneslayer(and Sigarda if your still playing her?). A problem here is, that every deck that can should up its AngerOfTheGods/Pyroclasm/VolcanicFallout count right now, which will hit even harder on Hatebears if you are also playing Dryads.
With the current boost for Scapeshift/Twin/UR and Burn (by DigThroughTime and or Treasure Cruise), i think spellskite is looking a bit better again. Went up to 2 maindeck again. He is a good wall and turns bolts to the face into shocks.
My Thalia count went up to 3 maindeck (and none sideboard), which felt perfectly fine. She is boss right now.
Have been thinking about the following list:
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dryad Militant
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Spellskite
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Brushland
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Forest
1 Plains
...just cant find it in my heart to not play Baneslayer and Thrun ;(
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Dryad Militant
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Spellskite
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Path to Exile
1x Rancor
Land: 22
4x Temple Garden
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Stirring Wildwood
2x Brushland
1x Tectonic Edge
2x Forest
1x Plains
I'm not sure if Spellskite is right, but with all the removal going around it's not a bad choice. It's just not aggressive though, which is where I think we want to be. Auriok Champion could be really good here, and Kor Firewalker is another solid choice that I forgot to mention. I'm definitely upping my Firewalker count in the sideboard to 2-3. I'm going to give some time and come up with something after the results of GP Madrid.
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