Merfolk plays vials for two reasons that I can really think of from the top of my head.
1. They play on a really low curve
2. They play a lot of lords, this makes combat math difficult. You can't block a 2/2 with your 2/3.
Merfolks curve is above mine, and not that far below DOL's.
So. #1 Isn't necessarily correct. I've been under the assumption that our curve, as well as the meat of our CMC, like merfolk, lies at 2, and that our CMC's can be relatively tight, if you're not playing baneslayer. Chop off the 2 baneslayers off of DOL's list, and you have a similar CMC to merfolk (at 2.25).
Lets just discuss #2... I think that's only true insofar as "you're not expecting them to use vial". Combat math isn't legitimately harder when you have them pegged on a vial lord. It's usually nothing you can deal with anyhow. If you're playing, you bolt the lord at instant speed or you just have to play around it. They're usually not even going to attack with creatures that they will get killed if they don't have it in hand. It's part of their plan yes, but, it's a fairly obvious one that's not hard to play around (in the sense that you're not surprised, not necessarily that you can't deal with). It's still not one of the better reasons to play vial.
I'm still looking for more answers. Because I think this is pretty critical to not only change opinions on what Vial is. Because frankly, I don't care if anyone runs it or not, as what's in your deckbox is whatever is in your deckbox, but I do care that it's evaluated on some weird skewed axis with this deck that I just don't understand. I think the key is to start looking at decks that successfully run it, and ask why they run it, why they use it, when they cut it, when they want it.
I've read through the last few pages of this thread and am quite confused. From DE reports and my own experience on MODO, a very large percentage of hatebear decks abuse value creatures such as Flickerwisp, Blade Splicer and Restoration Angel.
Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
I've read through the last few pages of this thread and am quite confused. From DE reports and my own experience on MODO, a very large percentage of hatebear decks abuse value creatures such as Flickerwisp, Blade Splicer and Restoration Angel. Essentially, that's their top end. I very rarely see Baneslayer, Sigarda, of Wilt-Leaf and Thrun usually resides in the SB. They also often split BoP and Vial. I'm not saying MODO results are the end all be all but I was expecting at least a mention of the aforementioned cards.
That is a different deck, called Death and Taxes. The two decks are definitely similar, but the main thing to keep in mind is this one question: Does Torpor Orb blow my deck out of the water? If the answer is yes, then you are likely playing Death and Taxes, and not Hatebears. My biggest issue here (keep in mind I started as a Death and Taxes player) is that I don't want to lose to a commonly played card that is in sideboards for Melira Pod, Twin, Kiki Pod, etc... I would rather have a similar deck, with a bigger top end, that doesn't lose to Orb. I also really like running Torpor Orb, and don't want to hose my own strategy with a card that is highly effective against a lot of top tier decks.
Feel free to play either strategy you prefer, but I definitely think this is the more competitive of the two decks.
Hello everyone. I'll let you know right off the bat that this is my last post in this thread, and probably in MTGS for a while. Its not you... its me. Its time for me to take a break from Magic.
By now I'm sure everyone here saw that this deck didn't make a huge splash at the GP. I tried as hard as I could, but despite 100+ hours of hard work and 450+ test games with this deck, it just wasn't in the cards for success at this event.
Friday - The Grinder
I had to do some selling at the dealers' tables, so I ended up jumping into the last grinder of the night.
In Round 1, I played against a fellow from the UK, piloting Amulet Combo. He tried to get me with a Primeval Titan, but my Ghost Quarter & Aven Mindcensor slowed him down enough for me to take control of the game. I had plenty of search hate in game 2 to grind out the match despite his boarded in Firespouts.
In Round 2, I faced Affinity. In game 1 it looked like I was about to lose, when I drew a... Worship! My opponent got the Oracle text for the card and then killed me the very next turn with 10 power on a Inkmoth Nexus. There wasn't much I could do about that. Game 2 had me draw a hand with turn 2 Kataki. I landed the Kataki and followed up with a Spellskite, forcing the concession.
Game 3 had me draw a hand with a decent curve and a Chalice of The Void. Chalice was going to be a bit less effective in this game due to me being on the draw, but it would still help me later as long as I could answer the initial plays from Affinity. Unfortunately for me, Affinity had "the nuts." Ornithopter, Ornithopter, Blinkmoth Nexus, Springleaf, Mox Opal, Cranial Plating, "Go." I lost shortly after when my opponent drew Arcbound Ravager and more gas.
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Saturday - GP Day 1
With no byes, I was looking at playing all nine rounds of Magic today.
After losing to Affinity in the grinder, I decided that I couldn't afford to lose to Affinity today, and made a SB adjustment. This was my final 75:
In game 1 we had a grindy game, where I had Loxodon Smiters for his 3/4 Street Wraiths and 4/4 Carabids. I eventually win this with superior creatures and a couple of removal spells.
In game 2 I had some hate cards to shut Living End down, and the deck never did much more besides play some Fulminator Mages.
1-0
Round 2 - Jund
Game 1 was ground out by the Jund player. He had Goyf, Lili, and enough removal to stop what I was doing.
In game 2, I had an aggressive start that Jund was not able to recover from.
Game 3 was a grind fest. I drew Worship, then Batterskull, then Thrun, the Last Troll to start hitting for 8 lifelink per turn. My opponent drew his own Batterskull, and we went to time in the round.
Once our turns were up, I asked my opponent to count the number of cards not in the deck. He had 30. I had 32. I tried to convince my opponent to concede the match to me, seeing as I would deck him via the Worship lock and he had no chance to win this game. My opponent refused to scoop, and this match ended in a draw.
1-0-1
Round 3 - UWR COntrol
I don't remember many specifics about this match, except that Batterskull was a house in game 2! My opponent didn't have the Mana Leak for that card, and from there I was able to ride it to victory.
2-0-1
Round 4 - Death & Taxes
This was one of the most fun matches I played all day. My opponent was a great person to play with, and our games were kind of silly as well! In game 1 I landed the Leonin Arbiter, Ghost Quarter combo. My opponent had his own Ghost Quarters to kill my lands as well. My opponent ended up having a Plains and 2 Aether Vials out to "cast" his creatures, while I had a pair of Noble Heirarchs to cast mine. The game lasted for a while, but eventually my Scavenging Ooze and Smiters were too much for our mono-white bretheren to manage.
Game 2 was much more straightforward, but my 4/4s were still bigger than the opponent's 3/3 Serra Avengers and 3/4 Restoration Angels.
3-0-1
Round 5 - Melira Pod
I lost this match to Gavony Township making Melira's team larger in both games. The Pod deck didn't need to combo off to beat me, since it played a better beatdown game than I could muster.
3-1-1
Round 6 - Grixis Delver
This was UR Delver with a splash for Thoughtseize.
I lost game 1 due to that Thoughtseize taking out my Worship. My opponent managed to deal with my board with Bolts and an active Grim Lavamancer, while I didn't draw anything that would help me out.
Game 2 was similar. I had a solid hand, but my cards were answered with Thoughtseize, counters, and Bolts on the rest.
3-2-1 - DROP
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Sunday - Win-A-Box
In round 1 I beat a Tin Fins player in 3 games. My hate cards, including Rest In Peace and Chalice set at 2, kept my opponent from doing anything when he couldn't draw an Emrakul. Eventually I had more than 6 permanents anyway...
In round 2 I played against Melira Pod again. Actually, this was the same player I faced in the main event! I still lost this is 2 games, although I got close to winning game 1 with Aven Mindcensor before my opponent dropped Archangel of Thune and pulled the game out. In game 2 I had hate cards while my opponent just went for the beatdown plan and played bigger creatures.
This was frustrating because I could have beaten UWR control in the finals and won this box. Oh well...
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I told myself before the event that this would be my last tournament for a while if I couldn't make Day 2. I put SO much work into this event, only to fail.
This deck is tier 2. I'm sorry guys, but the top tier decks either are faster (Storm, Tin Fins, Affinity), have more removal (BGx, Lightning Bolt decks), have combos that win on the spot (Twin, Pod), have bigger and better creatures (BG, Affinity, Melira Pod) or run extensive disruption (UWR). We can beat some of these decks some of the time, but we can't ever beat all of these decks all of the time. I tried, and you can look at the rest of this thread to see the work I put into this.
Aether Vial would not have helped me one bit. I didn't die to Cryptic Command or Spell Snare. I died to Gavony Township and a 10/10 Scavenging Ooze. I died to Thoughtseize. I died to the clock and a stubborn opponent. I died to decks that could take the hate we play and play out of it.
It seems like whatever we do, we lose to half of the top tier decks. We can build the list to beat combo & UWR, and then lose to BG, Affinity and Pod going on the beatdown. We can become a deck that hates out the "fair" decks, but then we'll have a bunch of durdles against the "unfair" half of the format. To top it off, we don't really have an inherant powerful game plan that can just win no matter what the opposition presents. We have to have the right match ups or we lose.
Notice how my wins were against "unfair" decks and the UWR opponent, and my losses were against "fair" decks. That's what my list does, but that's not good enough for this level of competition.
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What would an "anti-fair decks" list look like? Could we build a list that beats Melira Pod and Affinity in game 1 without sacrificing our game against the combo decks? IDK, but I'd start here:
Batterskull and Banealsayer in the maindeck as "trumps" to the fair decks. Baneslayer dies to more removal, but has flying. Batterskull is the more resilient trump, but doesn't have any evasion. Journey To Nowhere is our third best removal spell in these colors, but we play more of these than Dismembers at this point in order to preserve our life total against Zoo and other fast decks.
Mirran Crusader is in the list to punch through Melira Pod and BG decks, and also to carry a Batterskull to victory. Please play around with 1 or 2 Swords in the list as well. They match up well with the Crusader!
For the mana you will notice that I added a 2nd Gavony Township. We may be a bit color shy, so I compensated by adding the 6th mana dork (2nd Birds). This list now has the same Gavony power that Melira Pod does, so we can run the "pump plan" if we have to.
Last but not least, Courser of Kruphix could gain us some much needed life in fair matches as well as dig us through land pockets a bit faster than normal.
The SB is full of singletons now to gain coverage against the field. Damping Matrix stops both Pod and the creatures in the Pod deck from activating, but also stops your Qasali Pridemages, Batterskull and Spellskite from working. Only use this if the effect will cripple the opponent more than it harms you (Hint: Board out Batterskull.)
Grafdigger's Cage stops Melira Pod, but does NOT stop the Living End combo.
I found myself wanting the third Aven in some matches. With this SB that will be possible.
Kataki is the concession to Affinity. Do not ever go to a big tournament without a plan to beat that deck. It makes high showings in nearly every Modern event, so be prepared!
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Sideboard plan for the 75 I registered for the GP:
vs Twin - UR "All-In" version
IN: 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Choke, 2 Seal of Primordium, 1 Linvala
OUT: 2 Thrun, 2 Aven, 2 Thalia
- Worship doesn't actually help much here. If they go off, they will most likely be able to "Scry tutor" with Viscera Seer for the Enchantmant hate card or the Murderous Redcap to kill our board.
- Kill Spike Feeder or Archangel of Thrune first if you see it, because that combo doesn't care about our hate cards.
- Chalice for 0 to stop Summoner's Pact
- Remember that the pact cast on your side of the field via a Hive Mind is NOT countered! Chalice will not stop the Hive Mind part of the deck.
- Chalice for 1 so that Worship can work here. With Chalice out at 1 Merfolk cannot use Vapor Snag to make you lose the last point of life.
- EE for 2 to clear out the Lords and Spreading Seas
Last but not least, attached is the testing spreadsheet I used to log my games leading up to this event. Maybe this info can be of help to those of you that continue playing with the deck. It is certainly a fun list to play, but I'm afraid that if I wanted to play a Modern event tomorrow that I would be bringing my Affinity deck instead of this.
Sorry guys
EDIT: It looks like I can't upload an Excel spreadsheet on here.
Wow, long post. Okay! In round 2, I think the Jund player probably had Maelstrom Pulse in there somewhere. I don't blame him for not wanting to concede.
Thanks for the feedback and all the work you've put into this deck. I can understand your frustration. At one point I had the same feeling. But then I took the deck to a 5K event and did fairly well. Now I am moving forward with the deck. Sure, it's probably always going to be Tier 1.5-2, but as far as I'm concerned, this is MY deck. I'm not saying that I created it, or anything like that. I've played this deck for so long now that I can't even imagine playing anything else competitively. Sure, I've got Kiki Pod and Melira Pod on hand to play any time. But I don't play those decks like I play Hatebears. Not by a long shot. While I know how to play other decks, I am a long way away from playing them at the same efficiency that I play Hatebears at. As other decks and strategies come and go, this deck will always have cards on hand to adjust to the meta. It will never be a deck that people can hate out, because the optimal build is always in flux. For these reasons, I think this deck will continue to be the deck for me. I hope you decide to keep playing too.
Just wanted to say thanks for all your input into this thread, it is invaluable for those of us wanting to stick it out. (Although I'm slightly disheartened by your giving up on the deck, with the time you've put into it, it can't be an easy decision).
Anyway, good luck, enjoy your break and come back refreshed.
Merfolk plays countermagic to some extent and benefits a lot more from leaving mana open than Hatebears.
Er. "To some extent", means 2 spell pierces, or 2 remands? I'm just quantifying. Basically they have 6 spells they can play on an opponents turn, usually. Hatebears has 4. I think that's not a strong enough reason to consider why Merfolk uses vials.
Merfolk also has a considerably larger number of 2-drops and IMO vastly superior vial tricks which makes vial more effective overall. In addition to this the Merfolk deck more easily produces a large number of power on the board with a relatively small number of cards where as the effective 'card loss' can impact the board state more severely for the hatebears player.
I think we're stuck on the idea of vial tricks as being the reason to run Vial. What Vial tricks does merfolk run? Lords pumping and Reejerey's a tapping? It's the more aggressive form of attacking into an untapped vial, which makes sense, because we're a control deck. We don't run many ETB effects, like merfolk outside of Reejerey. The second half there, doesn't make much sense to me. I grasp that the Merfolk deck can put a lot of power on the ground. They're an aggro deck, a real aggro deck. But hatebears isn't. Hatebears shares its aggressiveness on par with legacy D&T (more than modern D&T).
I think my big issue with the statement is: "effective card loss". I don't actually understand what that means in this case, and how running vial would impact the board more severely for a hatebear player. That sounds like nonsense.
Honestly though, I'm not that impressed with vial in Merfolk either. In legacy vial is a vastly different beast since you have more countermagic in the format and you have cards like standstill that allow you to truly take advantage of vial's nature.
Have you played modern merfolk without Vial? It's hands down unplayable. Legacy Merfolk doesn't even run Standstill most of the time, granted it does have much more countermagic to play through, and Vials are a bit more powerful in a format where Force of Will is played. But look at legacy D&T... They play 3 Vial tricks now, which is significantly down from the past iterations of D&T that played stonecloaker mangara flickerwisp in much higher numbers and had a very high amount of creature interactions. Nowadays you're lucky if you see D&T decks with 1 mangara. Their only real Vial trick is 3 Flickerwisps & 2 Aven Mindcensors. I'd be rather sure to say that GW Hatebears runs more vial tricks than legacy D&T decks, but yet, we don't run enough combat tricks to play Vial. Why does legacy D&T run it? (I think we all know why modern D&T runs it). What about Goblins?
One of the things that I like doing, especially when doing evaluations is to ask a lot of questions, a lot of why and why nots. Asking why, especially in templating, is an important phase of design and tuning. When you're trying to evaluate a well used card in other archtypes and translate it, like you do with Vial, I think it's important to understand why they run it and what value it has to them.
- And granted, you can keep a low curve with hatebears if you wish (and you should IMO if you're gonna play vials) but I think this hurts you more in the current meta than any benefit you'd receive from vial.
But why? I think just stating your opinion without any rationale behind it is meaningless. Just explain why you think it hurts. Why is the low curve bad?
I understand you think Vial is bad (and a lot of you do), but I think it's more like saying Little Zoo is bad and you should only be playing Big Zoo... There's a fundamental difference between a card being bad and a card not fitting your playstyle, and that's I think what a lot of it is, followed by cherry picking a meta and saying "it's bad because of these decks". It just doesn't work. Sure, if your meta is 50% Zoo, Merfolk & Burn, Aether Vial isn't a great choice. Heck, Hatebears isn't a great choice in that meta anyway.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
Someone said something about Merfolk using Vial for Merrow Reejerey (lost track of who said it in the wall of text). They actually have to cast a merfolk spell for that ability to trigger.
Thanks for all the kind words everyone! I'm taking a break from Magic period. Its not this deck. I just need some time off to work on other things and recharge.
I would love to own this deck on MODO just to be able to stream gameplay. Sadly that is out of my current fund-range as a student, so we'll have to rely on DOL for videos.
The vial discussion is an interesting one, and I must say that I've always liked it as a card.
Is a 2 or 3 of Dryad Militant really out of the question? I know it's already been discussed a little bit (I discovered the search button and checked out all the posts where it had been mentioned), but I want to open the idea back up, or at least have someone soundly put it out of my mind if it actually just isn't worth it. There's the usual, "It gets fat from Wilt-Leaf Liege," but it also just seems so good against a number of decks! Would you cut off the top of the curve if you included it? How many are appropriate (I'd hate to draw a bunch)?
@Horseshoecrab: Aw... that's disheartening. Not necessarily the break from MtG, I get that. There's a lot of other things going on out there too. But the tourney. Sometimes it's just not there, I guess. I still think the deck is solid and extremely adaptable and can remain a solid deck for the long-haul.
Speaking of the long-haul, and this may sound like an odd question, but what direction will these bears go if Birthing Pod gets banned? I'd be interested in hearing some speculations. What would change? Would Arbiter slots free up? I'm curious.
Also, is blue too hard to splash for to include Geist of Saint Traft? I love the Worship route and that would give us some more hexproof synergism. He's legendary and that's applicable, and he hits like a ton of bricks. We all know that.
Thanks in advance for the input.
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MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Thanks for all your hard work, knowledge, and insight Horseshoecrab. Hopefully we'll get you back some time.
a Blue splash isn't too difficult, but fetches/arbiter can be a bit of a pain. Otherwise you can kinda take it in a bant direction with less hate, which I've been looking to try.
The most notable issue with the deck is definitely its dependence on weak draws with no tutors/manipulation unlike its legacy inspiration. If pod gets banned, although I feel its unlikely, Arbiters can be removed for kotr + fetches?. However, without the pseudo stripmines, swords to plowshares, we're not really doing much else besides being a low curve/mindrangy deck with no real mana denial outside of thalia and fauna shaman definitely needs to be an auto-include with no GSZ, mom, or stoneforge around. Maybe we can get a decent mom/land disruption substitute one day.
Is a 2 or 3 of Dryad Militant really out of the question? I know it's already been discussed a little bit (I discovered the search button and checked out all the posts where it had been mentioned), but I want to open the idea back up, or at least have someone soundly put it out of my mind if it actually just isn't worth it. There's the usual, "It gets fat from Wilt-Leaf Liege," but it also just seems so good against a number of decks! Would you cut off the top of the curve if you included it? How many are appropriate (I'd hate to draw a bunch)?
@Horseshoecrab: Aw... that's disheartening. Not necessarily the break from MtG, I get that. There's a lot of other things going on out there too. But the tourney. Sometimes it's just not there, I guess. I still think the deck is solid and extremely adaptable and can remain a solid deck for the long-haul.
Speaking of the long-haul, and this may sound like an odd question, but what direction will these bears go if Birthing Pod gets banned? I'd be interested in hearing some speculations. What would change? Would Arbiter slots free up? I'm curious.
Also, is blue too hard to splash for to include Geist of Saint Traft? I love the Worship route and that would give us some more hexproof synergism. He's legendary and that's applicable, and he hits like a ton of bricks. We all know that.
Thanks in advance for the input.
Well i think -4 Leonin Arbiter in GW is totally out of question.
They have sinergy with Path to Exile which is the best White removal besides they're powerfull with Ghost Quarter and this combo hurts most of the top decks of the format (see Twin, Zoo, Fae, Jund).
I think your Geist + Worship suggestion fits better in the UWx Taxes, but maybe not GW Hatebears.
Is a 2 or 3 of Dryad Militant really out of the question? I know it's already been discussed a little bit (I discovered the search button and checked out all the posts where it had been mentioned), but I want to open the idea back up, or at least have someone soundly put it out of my mind if it actually just isn't worth it. There's the usual, "It gets fat from Wilt-Leaf Liege," but it also just seems so good against a number of decks! Would you cut off the top of the curve if you included it? How many are appropriate (I'd hate to draw a bunch)?
@Horseshoecrab: Aw... that's disheartening. Not necessarily the break from MtG, I get that. There's a lot of other things going on out there too. But the tourney. Sometimes it's just not there, I guess. I still think the deck is solid and extremely adaptable and can remain a solid deck for the long-haul.
Speaking of the long-haul, and this may sound like an odd question, but what direction will these bears go if Birthing Pod gets banned? I'd be interested in hearing some speculations. What would change? Would Arbiter slots free up? I'm curious.
Also, is blue too hard to splash for to include Geist of Saint Traft? I love the Worship route and that would give us some more hexproof synergism. He's legendary and that's applicable, and he hits like a ton of bricks. We all know that.
Militant is particularly good against specific graveyard strategies, but it is also solid against Snapcaster Mage which happens to be one of the most played cards in the format. The 2/1 body for 1 is great for builds that want to be aggressive, and he gets a solid pump from Wilt-leaf Liege.
Good Against: 4
Storm - 3
Gifts - 1
Fair Against: 10
Twin - 3
Scapeshift - 2
RUW Control - 2
Blue Moon - 2
UR Delver - 1
The biggest thing with this deck and the one reason I always end up coming back to it is this: I have never played a game of magic with this deck where I felt I had no shot at winning the match. Some of our matchups may not be great, but there isn't a single one where I would put myself as an autoloss. In the past I have played decks where something like Storm was an autoloss. I will never do that again if I can help it. I tried to go the path of the T1 deck and play pod. I built it on modo and proceeded to fail with it. I switch back to this and end up with a 75% win rate in like 12 matches. Of course that doesn't mean that's what this deck does, but I've never felt just out of a match with no chance to win due to my list. I won't argue that this is a T1 deck, however I will argue that it is a meta deck and in the right setting boosts itself to T1 status just due to the matchups you play against.
Hello everyone.
Been playing hate-bears for a couple of weeks and its been loads of fun playing and building it. Was wondering if I could get some feedback on the list I'm running.
Ive had some success with this list but it feels like its missing something. Would welcome some opinions.
So far the all star has been Knight of the Reliquary.
I can agree with that. I find myself running with a pretty constant 60-65% win rate with almost every variation of this deck. Part of that is also my knowledge of the format and experience piloting the deck.
EDIT: Played a couple matches against BG Rock. I only lost one game, and even managed to win one where I was playing horribly. I definitely wasn't playing my best tonight, but my opponent was good and so were the games.
Currently my thoughts on Elspeth are that I do really like her, but I also don't like drawing more than one. Getting taxed by Thalia can be an issue from time to time too. If I continue to run her, I will likely only run her as a 1 of. That said, I am very strongly considering keeping her in my build. I'd like to test her more, but I feel it's time to move on to testing other cards on my list.
The usual response when KotR is brought up is that Arbiter tax impedes it too much, we don't utilize fetchlands, etc. That being said, I've never actually tried it so I'm interested in your experience. How are you using it that makes it the all-star?
The usual response when KotR is brought up is that Arbiter tax impedes it too much, we don't utilize fetchlands, etc. That being said, I've never actually tried it so I'm interested in your experience. How are you using it that makes it the all-star?
While its true arbiter seems like it would tax KOTR it actually does not. Most of the time if I have both out i begin to pay 2 mana sacrificing one of those lands to fetch a Ghost Quarter and proceed to destroy my opponents lands which makes KOTR quite big extremely fast. Some matches got to the point where I had left my opponent with nothing but mana dorks and the fetches in his hands. Its also quite great for fetching Stirring Wildwood
Also the fact that there's a Horizon Canopy ,Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge usually get it quite beefy.
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Merfolks play:
- 4 1 cmc creatures.
- 15 2 cmc creatures.
- 4 3 cmc creatures.
- 3 4 cmc creatures.
Avg Cmc: 2.23
Hatebears (my list) plays:
- 6 1 cmc creatures
- 13 2 cmc creatures
- 9 3 cmc creatures
- 0 4 cmc creatures
Avg CMC: 2.18
Hatebears (DOL's list) plays:
- 5 1 cmc creatures
- 16 2 cmc creatures
- 7 3 cmc creatures
- 3 4 cmc creatures
- 2 5 cmc creatures
Avg CMC: 2.42
Merfolks curve is above mine, and not that far below DOL's.
So. #1 Isn't necessarily correct. I've been under the assumption that our curve, as well as the meat of our CMC, like merfolk, lies at 2, and that our CMC's can be relatively tight, if you're not playing baneslayer. Chop off the 2 baneslayers off of DOL's list, and you have a similar CMC to merfolk (at 2.25).
Lets just discuss #2... I think that's only true insofar as "you're not expecting them to use vial". Combat math isn't legitimately harder when you have them pegged on a vial lord. It's usually nothing you can deal with anyhow. If you're playing, you bolt the lord at instant speed or you just have to play around it. They're usually not even going to attack with creatures that they will get killed if they don't have it in hand. It's part of their plan yes, but, it's a fairly obvious one that's not hard to play around (in the sense that you're not surprised, not necessarily that you can't deal with). It's still not one of the better reasons to play vial.
I'm still looking for more answers. Because I think this is pretty critical to not only change opinions on what Vial is. Because frankly, I don't care if anyone runs it or not, as what's in your deckbox is whatever is in your deckbox, but I do care that it's evaluated on some weird skewed axis with this deck that I just don't understand. I think the key is to start looking at decks that successfully run it, and ask why they run it, why they use it, when they cut it, when they want it.
More likely to find them in the paper cards.
That is a different deck, called Death and Taxes. The two decks are definitely similar, but the main thing to keep in mind is this one question: Does Torpor Orb blow my deck out of the water? If the answer is yes, then you are likely playing Death and Taxes, and not Hatebears. My biggest issue here (keep in mind I started as a Death and Taxes player) is that I don't want to lose to a commonly played card that is in sideboards for Melira Pod, Twin, Kiki Pod, etc... I would rather have a similar deck, with a bigger top end, that doesn't lose to Orb. I also really like running Torpor Orb, and don't want to hose my own strategy with a card that is highly effective against a lot of top tier decks.
Feel free to play either strategy you prefer, but I definitely think this is the more competitive of the two decks.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
By now I'm sure everyone here saw that this deck didn't make a huge splash at the GP. I tried as hard as I could, but despite 100+ hours of hard work and 450+ test games with this deck, it just wasn't in the cards for success at this event.
Friday - The Grinder
I had to do some selling at the dealers' tables, so I ended up jumping into the last grinder of the night.
In Round 1, I played against a fellow from the UK, piloting Amulet Combo. He tried to get me with a Primeval Titan, but my Ghost Quarter & Aven Mindcensor slowed him down enough for me to take control of the game. I had plenty of search hate in game 2 to grind out the match despite his boarded in Firespouts.
In Round 2, I faced Affinity. In game 1 it looked like I was about to lose, when I drew a... Worship! My opponent got the Oracle text for the card and then killed me the very next turn with 10 power on a Inkmoth Nexus. There wasn't much I could do about that. Game 2 had me draw a hand with turn 2 Kataki. I landed the Kataki and followed up with a Spellskite, forcing the concession.
Game 3 had me draw a hand with a decent curve and a Chalice of The Void. Chalice was going to be a bit less effective in this game due to me being on the draw, but it would still help me later as long as I could answer the initial plays from Affinity. Unfortunately for me, Affinity had "the nuts." Ornithopter, Ornithopter, Blinkmoth Nexus, Springleaf, Mox Opal, Cranial Plating, "Go." I lost shortly after when my opponent drew Arcbound Ravager and more gas.
---
Saturday - GP Day 1
With no byes, I was looking at playing all nine rounds of Magic today.
After losing to Affinity in the grinder, I decided that I couldn't afford to lose to Affinity today, and made a SB adjustment. This was my final 75:
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Temple Garden
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Path to Exile
2 Worship
1 Batterskull
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Choke
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Torpor Orb
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Round 1 - Living End
In game 1 we had a grindy game, where I had Loxodon Smiters for his 3/4 Street Wraiths and 4/4 Carabids. I eventually win this with superior creatures and a couple of removal spells.
In game 2 I had some hate cards to shut Living End down, and the deck never did much more besides play some Fulminator Mages.
1-0
Round 2 - Jund
Game 1 was ground out by the Jund player. He had Goyf, Lili, and enough removal to stop what I was doing.
In game 2, I had an aggressive start that Jund was not able to recover from.
Game 3 was a grind fest. I drew Worship, then Batterskull, then Thrun, the Last Troll to start hitting for 8 lifelink per turn. My opponent drew his own Batterskull, and we went to time in the round.
Once our turns were up, I asked my opponent to count the number of cards not in the deck. He had 30. I had 32. I tried to convince my opponent to concede the match to me, seeing as I would deck him via the Worship lock and he had no chance to win this game. My opponent refused to scoop, and this match ended in a draw.
1-0-1
Round 3 - UWR COntrol
I don't remember many specifics about this match, except that Batterskull was a house in game 2! My opponent didn't have the Mana Leak for that card, and from there I was able to ride it to victory.
2-0-1
Round 4 - Death & Taxes
This was one of the most fun matches I played all day. My opponent was a great person to play with, and our games were kind of silly as well! In game 1 I landed the Leonin Arbiter, Ghost Quarter combo. My opponent had his own Ghost Quarters to kill my lands as well. My opponent ended up having a Plains and 2 Aether Vials out to "cast" his creatures, while I had a pair of Noble Heirarchs to cast mine. The game lasted for a while, but eventually my Scavenging Ooze and Smiters were too much for our mono-white bretheren to manage.
Game 2 was much more straightforward, but my 4/4s were still bigger than the opponent's 3/3 Serra Avengers and 3/4 Restoration Angels.
3-0-1
Round 5 - Melira Pod
I lost this match to Gavony Township making Melira's team larger in both games. The Pod deck didn't need to combo off to beat me, since it played a better beatdown game than I could muster.
3-1-1
Round 6 - Grixis Delver
This was UR Delver with a splash for Thoughtseize.
I lost game 1 due to that Thoughtseize taking out my Worship. My opponent managed to deal with my board with Bolts and an active Grim Lavamancer, while I didn't draw anything that would help me out.
Game 2 was similar. I had a solid hand, but my cards were answered with Thoughtseize, counters, and Bolts on the rest.
3-2-1 - DROP
---
Sunday - Win-A-Box
In round 1 I beat a Tin Fins player in 3 games. My hate cards, including Rest In Peace and Chalice set at 2, kept my opponent from doing anything when he couldn't draw an Emrakul. Eventually I had more than 6 permanents anyway...
In round 2 I played against Melira Pod again. Actually, this was the same player I faced in the main event! I still lost this is 2 games, although I got close to winning game 1 with Aven Mindcensor before my opponent dropped Archangel of Thune and pulled the game out. In game 2 I had hate cards while my opponent just went for the beatdown plan and played bigger creatures.
This was frustrating because I could have beaten UWR control in the finals and won this box. Oh well...
---
I told myself before the event that this would be my last tournament for a while if I couldn't make Day 2. I put SO much work into this event, only to fail.
This deck is tier 2. I'm sorry guys, but the top tier decks either are faster (Storm, Tin Fins, Affinity), have more removal (BGx, Lightning Bolt decks), have combos that win on the spot (Twin, Pod), have bigger and better creatures (BG, Affinity, Melira Pod) or run extensive disruption (UWR). We can beat some of these decks some of the time, but we can't ever beat all of these decks all of the time. I tried, and you can look at the rest of this thread to see the work I put into this.
Aether Vial would not have helped me one bit. I didn't die to Cryptic Command or Spell Snare. I died to Gavony Township and a 10/10 Scavenging Ooze. I died to Thoughtseize. I died to the clock and a stubborn opponent. I died to decks that could take the hate we play and play out of it.
It seems like whatever we do, we lose to half of the top tier decks. We can build the list to beat combo & UWR, and then lose to BG, Affinity and Pod going on the beatdown. We can become a deck that hates out the "fair" decks, but then we'll have a bunch of durdles against the "unfair" half of the format. To top it off, we don't really have an inherant powerful game plan that can just win no matter what the opposition presents. We have to have the right match ups or we lose.
Notice how my wins were against "unfair" decks and the UWR opponent, and my losses were against "fair" decks. That's what my list does, but that's not good enough for this level of competition.
---
What would an "anti-fair decks" list look like? Could we build a list that beats Melira Pod and Affinity in game 1 without sacrificing our game against the combo decks? IDK, but I'd start here:
2 Gavony Township
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Temple Garden
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Dismember
2 Journey to Nowhere
4 Path to Exile
1 Worship
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Choke
1 Damping Matrix
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Spellskite
1 Stony Silence
1 Torpor Orb
1 Worship
Batterskull and Banealsayer in the maindeck as "trumps" to the fair decks. Baneslayer dies to more removal, but has flying. Batterskull is the more resilient trump, but doesn't have any evasion. Journey To Nowhere is our third best removal spell in these colors, but we play more of these than Dismembers at this point in order to preserve our life total against Zoo and other fast decks.
Mirran Crusader is in the list to punch through Melira Pod and BG decks, and also to carry a Batterskull to victory. Please play around with 1 or 2 Swords in the list as well. They match up well with the Crusader!
For the mana you will notice that I added a 2nd Gavony Township. We may be a bit color shy, so I compensated by adding the 6th mana dork (2nd Birds). This list now has the same Gavony power that Melira Pod does, so we can run the "pump plan" if we have to.
Last but not least, Courser of Kruphix could gain us some much needed life in fair matches as well as dig us through land pockets a bit faster than normal.
The SB is full of singletons now to gain coverage against the field. Damping Matrix stops both Pod and the creatures in the Pod deck from activating, but also stops your Qasali Pridemages, Batterskull and Spellskite from working. Only use this if the effect will cripple the opponent more than it harms you (Hint: Board out Batterskull.)
Grafdigger's Cage stops Melira Pod, but does NOT stop the Living End combo.
I found myself wanting the third Aven in some matches. With this SB that will be possible.
Kataki is the concession to Affinity. Do not ever go to a big tournament without a plan to beat that deck. It makes high showings in nearly every Modern event, so be prepared!
---
Sideboard plan for the 75 I registered for the GP:
vs Twin - UR "All-In" version
IN: 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Choke, 2 Seal of Primordium, 1 Linvala
OUT: 2 Thrun, 2 Aven, 2 Thalia
- They might have Blood Moon
vs Twin - UWR & RUG versions
IN: 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Choke, 2 Seal, 1 Rest In Peace, 1 Linvala
OUT: 1 Thrun, 2 Aven, 2 Thalia, 2 Leonin Arbiter
- I want a Thrun here as a "hedge" against the alternate plans for these decks.
vs Blue Moon
IN: 2 Seal, 3 Chalice, 2 Rest In Peace, 1 Choke, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Worship, 1 Birds, 4 Path, 2 Arbiter
- Chalice for 1, then 3 to keep Shackles off the board.
vs UWR Control
IN: 1 Choke, 2 RIP, 3 Chalice, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Worship, 4 Path, 1 Birds
- Chalice for 1
- Try to cast Thrun with the regen mana up. Don't lose your best card in this match to a board wipe!
vs Melira Pod
IN: 2 RIP, 2 Torpor Orb, 2 Seal, 1 Stony Silence, 1 Linvala
OUT: 2 Thrun, 2 Thalia, 2 Spellskite, 2 Worship
- Worship doesn't actually help much here. If they go off, they will most likely be able to "Scry tutor" with Viscera Seer for the Enchantmant hate card or the Murderous Redcap to kill our board.
- Kill Spike Feeder or Archangel of Thrune first if you see it, because that combo doesn't care about our hate cards.
vs Kiki Pod
IN: 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Linvala, 2 Seal, 1 Stony Silence, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Thrun, 2 Thalia, 2 Spellskite, 1 Worship
vs Affinity
IN: 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Stony, 2 Seal, 3 Chalice, 1 Kataki
OUT: 2 Thalia, 2 Thrun, 3 Voice, 1 Smiter
- Chalice for 0 on the play & 0 or 2 on the draw
- Mulligan to Stony or EE or Path & Seal on the draw
vs Storm
IN: 1 EE, 3 Chalice, 1 Choke, 2 RIP, 2 Seal
OUT: 1 Voice of Resurgence, 4 Path, 1 Dismember, 2 Thrun, 1 Birds
- Chalice for 2 on the play, 1 on the draw
- Use EE for 0 to blow up Empty the Warrens tokens
vs Ad Nauseum combo
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 Seal, 1 Stony Silence
OUT: 4 Path, 1 Dismember, 1 Birds
- Chalice for 0 if they have Lotus Bloom, else set it to 1 for the Angel's Grace and cantrips
- Spellskite is also hard hate for this combo.
vs Amulet combo / Summer Bloom
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 Orb, 2 Seal
OUT: 2 Worship, 2 Thrun, 2 Spellskite, 1 Ooze
- Chalice for 0 to stop Summoner's Pact
- Remember that the pact cast on your side of the field via a Hive Mind is NOT countered! Chalice will not stop the Hive Mind part of the deck.
vs Living End
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 RIP
OUT: 2 Spellskite, 3 Qasali Pridemage
- Chalice for 0 stops Living End from resolving
vs Big Zoo
IN: 1 Batterskull, 2 RIP, 1 EE
OUT: 2 Thalia, 2 Qasali
- EE for 2 to blow up opposing Goyfs and Oozes
vs BG Rock / Jund
IN: 2 RIP, 1 Batterskull, 1 EE
OUT: 2 Thalia, 2 Arbiter
- Keep Qasali for possible Batterskull or Swords on their side.
- EE for 2 for Goyfs
vs RG Tron
IN: 3 Chalice, 1 Stony, 2 Seal, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Spellskite, 2 Worship, 1 Dismember, 2 Thalia
vs Tin Fins
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 RIP
OUT: 3 Voice, 2 Thalia
- Chalice for 2 if on the play, or 1 if on the draw.
vs Merfolk
IN: 1 Batterskull, 1 EE, 1 Choke, 3 Chalice
OUT: 1 Birds, 3 Path, 2 Aven
- Chalice for 1 so that Worship can work here. With Chalice out at 1 Merfolk cannot use Vapor Snag to make you lose the last point of life.
- EE for 2 to clear out the Lords and Spreading Seas
vs Bogle
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 Seal, 1 EE
OUT: 2 Aven, 2 Thrun, 2 Path
- Chalice and EE for 1
vs Infect
IN: 1 EE, 3 Chalice
OUT: 2 Worship, 2 Thrun
- They will have Stony Silence for your Spellskites.
vs BW Tokens
IN: 1 EE, 2 Seal
OUT: 2 Aven, Dismember
- They will have Sundering Growth for Worship if they see it in game 1.
vs Soul Sisters
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 Orb, 1 Batterskull, 1 EE
OUT: 2 Thalia, 1 Birds, 4 Path
- Chalice for 1
vs Delver
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 RIP, 1 Batterskull, 1 Choke
OUT: 2 Thalia, 1 Birds, 4 Path
- Chalice for 1
- RIP for Snapcaster and Grim Lavamancer
vs UWR Midrange
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 RIP, 2 Torpor Orb, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Thalia, 1 Birds, 4 Path, 1 Aven
- Chalice for 1
vs Scapeshift
IN: 1 Choke
OUT: 1 Qasali
- Assuming you are playing against the RUG version with Cryptic Command
vs the mirror
IN: 1 Batterskull, 1 Linvala
OUT: 2 Thalia
vs 8-rack
IN: 3 Chalice, 2 Seal, 1 EE, 1 Batterskull
OUT: 2 Aven, 2 Worship, 2 Path, 1 Birds
- Chalice for 1
---
Last but not least, attached is the testing spreadsheet I used to log my games leading up to this event. Maybe this info can be of help to those of you that continue playing with the deck. It is certainly a fun list to play, but I'm afraid that if I wanted to play a Modern event tomorrow that I would be bringing my Affinity deck instead of this.
Sorry guys
EDIT: It looks like I can't upload an Excel spreadsheet on here.
~ Brian DeMars
Thanks for the feedback and all the work you've put into this deck. I can understand your frustration. At one point I had the same feeling. But then I took the deck to a 5K event and did fairly well. Now I am moving forward with the deck. Sure, it's probably always going to be Tier 1.5-2, but as far as I'm concerned, this is MY deck. I'm not saying that I created it, or anything like that. I've played this deck for so long now that I can't even imagine playing anything else competitively. Sure, I've got Kiki Pod and Melira Pod on hand to play any time. But I don't play those decks like I play Hatebears. Not by a long shot. While I know how to play other decks, I am a long way away from playing them at the same efficiency that I play Hatebears at. As other decks and strategies come and go, this deck will always have cards on hand to adjust to the meta. It will never be a deck that people can hate out, because the optimal build is always in flux. For these reasons, I think this deck will continue to be the deck for me. I hope you decide to keep playing too.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Just wanted to say thanks for all your input into this thread, it is invaluable for those of us wanting to stick it out. (Although I'm slightly disheartened by your giving up on the deck, with the time you've put into it, it can't be an easy decision).
Anyway, good luck, enjoy your break and come back refreshed.
PS you could possible share on googledocs
Er. "To some extent", means 2 spell pierces, or 2 remands? I'm just quantifying. Basically they have 6 spells they can play on an opponents turn, usually. Hatebears has 4. I think that's not a strong enough reason to consider why Merfolk uses vials.
I think we're stuck on the idea of vial tricks as being the reason to run Vial. What Vial tricks does merfolk run? Lords pumping and Reejerey's a tapping? It's the more aggressive form of attacking into an untapped vial, which makes sense, because we're a control deck. We don't run many ETB effects, like merfolk outside of Reejerey. The second half there, doesn't make much sense to me. I grasp that the Merfolk deck can put a lot of power on the ground. They're an aggro deck, a real aggro deck. But hatebears isn't. Hatebears shares its aggressiveness on par with legacy D&T (more than modern D&T).
I think my big issue with the statement is: "effective card loss". I don't actually understand what that means in this case, and how running vial would impact the board more severely for a hatebear player. That sounds like nonsense.
Have you played modern merfolk without Vial? It's hands down unplayable. Legacy Merfolk doesn't even run Standstill most of the time, granted it does have much more countermagic to play through, and Vials are a bit more powerful in a format where Force of Will is played. But look at legacy D&T... They play 3 Vial tricks now, which is significantly down from the past iterations of D&T that played stonecloaker mangara flickerwisp in much higher numbers and had a very high amount of creature interactions. Nowadays you're lucky if you see D&T decks with 1 mangara. Their only real Vial trick is 3 Flickerwisps & 2 Aven Mindcensors. I'd be rather sure to say that GW Hatebears runs more vial tricks than legacy D&T decks, but yet, we don't run enough combat tricks to play Vial. Why does legacy D&T run it? (I think we all know why modern D&T runs it). What about Goblins?
One of the things that I like doing, especially when doing evaluations is to ask a lot of questions, a lot of why and why nots. Asking why, especially in templating, is an important phase of design and tuning. When you're trying to evaluate a well used card in other archtypes and translate it, like you do with Vial, I think it's important to understand why they run it and what value it has to them.
But why? I think just stating your opinion without any rationale behind it is meaningless. Just explain why you think it hurts. Why is the low curve bad?
I understand you think Vial is bad (and a lot of you do), but I think it's more like saying Little Zoo is bad and you should only be playing Big Zoo... There's a fundamental difference between a card being bad and a card not fitting your playstyle, and that's I think what a lot of it is, followed by cherry picking a meta and saying "it's bad because of these decks". It just doesn't work. Sure, if your meta is 50% Zoo, Merfolk & Burn, Aether Vial isn't a great choice. Heck, Hatebears isn't a great choice in that meta anyway.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Good idea on the GoogleDocs link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-QwgoqXFaZFeGNzOU8yZGxkb28/edit?usp=sharing
~ Brian DeMars
The vial discussion is an interesting one, and I must say that I've always liked it as a card.
@Horseshoecrab: Aw... that's disheartening. Not necessarily the break from MtG, I get that. There's a lot of other things going on out there too. But the tourney. Sometimes it's just not there, I guess. I still think the deck is solid and extremely adaptable and can remain a solid deck for the long-haul.
Speaking of the long-haul, and this may sound like an odd question, but what direction will these bears go if Birthing Pod gets banned? I'd be interested in hearing some speculations. What would change? Would Arbiter slots free up? I'm curious.
Also, is blue too hard to splash for to include Geist of Saint Traft? I love the Worship route and that would give us some more hexproof synergism. He's legendary and that's applicable, and he hits like a ton of bricks. We all know that.
Thanks in advance for the input.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
a Blue splash isn't too difficult, but fetches/arbiter can be a bit of a pain. Otherwise you can kinda take it in a bant direction with less hate, which I've been looking to try.
The most notable issue with the deck is definitely its dependence on weak draws with no tutors/manipulation unlike its legacy inspiration. If pod gets banned, although I feel its unlikely, Arbiters can be removed for kotr + fetches?. However, without the pseudo stripmines, swords to plowshares, we're not really doing much else besides being a low curve/mindrangy deck with no real mana denial outside of thalia and fauna shaman definitely needs to be an auto-include with no GSZ, mom, or stoneforge around. Maybe we can get a decent mom/land disruption substitute one day.
Well i think -4 Leonin Arbiter in GW is totally out of question.
They have sinergy with Path to Exile which is the best White removal besides they're powerfull with Ghost Quarter and this combo hurts most of the top decks of the format (see Twin, Zoo, Fae, Jund).
I think your Geist + Worship suggestion fits better in the UWx Taxes, but maybe not GW Hatebears.
Dryad Militant - Meta Rating: 14
Militant is particularly good against specific graveyard strategies, but it is also solid against Snapcaster Mage which happens to be one of the most played cards in the format. The 2/1 body for 1 is great for builds that want to be aggressive, and he gets a solid pump from Wilt-leaf Liege.
Good Against: 4
Storm - 3
Gifts - 1
Fair Against: 10
Twin - 3
Scapeshift - 2
RUW Control - 2
Blue Moon - 2
UR Delver - 1
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Been playing hate-bears for a couple of weeks and its been loads of fun playing and building it. Was wondering if I could get some feedback on the list I'm running.
4x Dryad Militant
4x Leonin Arbiter
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Voice of Resurgence
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Mirran Crusader
3x Loxodon Smiter
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Aether Vial
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
Instants: 4
4x Path to Exile
Lands: 23
1x Brushland
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Stirring Wildwood
2x Tectonic Edge
4x Temple Garden
2x Torpor Orb
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spellskite
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Back to Nature
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Sigarda, Host of Heron's
Ive had some success with this list but it feels like its missing something. Would welcome some opinions.
So far the all star has been Knight of the Reliquary.
EDIT: Played a couple matches against BG Rock. I only lost one game, and even managed to win one where I was playing horribly. I definitely wasn't playing my best tonight, but my opponent was good and so were the games.
BG Rock (2-1 3/14/14)
BG Rock (2-0 3/14/14)
Currently my thoughts on Elspeth are that I do really like her, but I also don't like drawing more than one. Getting taxed by Thalia can be an issue from time to time too. If I continue to run her, I will likely only run her as a 1 of. That said, I am very strongly considering keeping her in my build. I'd like to test her more, but I feel it's time to move on to testing other cards on my list.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
The usual response when KotR is brought up is that Arbiter tax impedes it too much, we don't utilize fetchlands, etc. That being said, I've never actually tried it so I'm interested in your experience. How are you using it that makes it the all-star?
While its true arbiter seems like it would tax KOTR it actually does not. Most of the time if I have both out i begin to pay 2 mana sacrificing one of those lands to fetch a Ghost Quarter and proceed to destroy my opponents lands which makes KOTR quite big extremely fast. Some matches got to the point where I had left my opponent with nothing but mana dorks and the fetches in his hands. Its also quite great for fetching Stirring Wildwood
Also the fact that there's a Horizon Canopy ,Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge usually get it quite beefy.