I got a lot of testing done this weekend and had really great results with 2 pack rat and 2 kitchen finks main, otherwise going with the 'typical' control list, its not the same as goyf, but does play nicely with the less rock mindset.
I think if we wanna go goyf-less and be competitive it is possible, but I noticed that basically without a discard spell and two removals early we weren't really playing a deck suitable for modern. I mean to say that we start 'playing' turn 3/4 rather than right off the bat and no matter how powerful the end game, thats just not a realistic expectation. Finks and rat, even they just chump have been really helpful to help shore up the early game. I cut grave titan and added a third inquisition as I also felt that it helps get the deck going early and having too much discard wasn't a big deal late because you may have drawn a rat by then. Try it out.
To be clear, I don't think the Goyfless version is bad. It's just a tad too slow for the format. Gifts gives you the ability to come back a lot of times, but it's probably not enough.
I'm not saying thats what you were insinuating, but I think it does feel underpowered in the early game and thats what I did to fix it without buying goyfs.
i went 2-2 last night going against 2 kiki pods and 2 merfolks. elesh norn just shuts kiki pod off(match 2) but sometimes theyre just faster
(match 1) Merfolk is only rough if we dont draw removal otherwise theyre playing 2/2s for 2(match 3) Also Phantasmal image can be a real pain copying Iona or Norn, bleh, not playing around the card led to some sloppy losses. Master of the Waves can be tricky, most notably abrupt decay doesnt hit it and Liliana cries too... Maelstrom pulse was great and I like 2 in the 75, brought the 2nd in in all matches.
I decided on a couple mana leaks in the main since im going for the goyfless controlling version and they were awesome. Duress will also be going in the side since now i can take out a negate or 2. Hand disruption has been paramount for my wins and choosing the wrong card has lead to quite a few losses. With the addition of counterspell back up hand disruption acts almnost as a 2 for 1 as it allows me to counter what is appropriate.
Blue is only a slight splash, so hoping to have a blue source on t1 for a Serum Visions is too risky. You could rework the mana base, but really this is a Rock/Junk deck with blue only for 5-8 cards including the SB (4 Gifts, 1-2 Snapcaster, some counters from the SB if any).
Do you feel that three color gifts is good? I tried four colors. I just feel that three color fail to find is stupid. And four colors can sometimes not hit the proper land base. Thats why i went to three colors. I get serum visions and inquistion four of each makes turn one amazing!!
I don't know, I usually don't have color issues, specially if you are running the Esper / Solar Flare 4C version, as green is just an splash for Abrupt Decay and Life from the Loam (plus some sideboard options).
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
- I'm not sure about the 25th land. Was thinking on trying Vault of the Archangel, but I'm hesitant to run 4 colorless lands with such greedy manabase. Perhaps a Celestial Colonnade? Another Creeping Tarpit? Bojuka Bog maybe?
- As I'm sure everyone already know, Knight of the Reliquary is not a Tarmogoyf. Most of the times I'm like "girl, I wish you were a goyf now!", although from time to time she's and absolute beast.
- Thragtusk is huge for life gain, as you can usually Gifts for Thragtusk + Unburial + X + Y against aggro. Love it.
- Scooze is really good, but I don't think I can afford to run more than one, as usually I don't have that much green mana at my disposal.
- Iona was moved to the sideboard, more a meta-call than anything else
I really, really want to make KKnight of the Reliquary to work, but at the end of the day it seems that she's always outclassed but the green Lhurgoyf.
As I don't own any Tarmogoyf, should I go back to a more control-ish build? Any thoughts?
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
just play it a bunch until you can figure it out yourself. I've been running 2 finks main and really liked it and sometimes it gets there with some souls tokens. I think the q of whether or not your beaters are good enough is whether or not you think you need to control the game first to win. goyf says no, knight says maybe, souls say yes--you pick and then build around that.
- I'm not sure about the 25th land. Was thinking on trying Vault of the Archangel, but I'm hesitant to run 4 colorless lands with such greedy manabase. Perhaps a Celestial Colonnade? Another Creeping Tarpit? Bojuka Bog maybe?
- As I'm sure everyone already know, Knight of the Reliquary is not a Tarmogoyf. Most of the times I'm like "girl, I wish you were a goyf now!", although from time to time she's and absolute beast.
- Thragtusk is huge for life gain, as you can usually Gifts for Thragtusk + Unburial + X + Y against aggro. Love it.
- Scooze is really good, but I don't think I can afford to run more than one, as usually I don't have that much green mana at my disposal.
- Iona was moved to the sideboard, more a meta-call than anything else
I really, really want to make KKnight of the Reliquary to work, but at the end of the day it seems that she's always outclassed but the green Lhurgoyf.
As I don't own any Tarmogoyf, should I go back to a more control-ish build? Any thoughts?
I also don't have access to Goyfs, and would like to make Knight of the Reliquary work. I like your list, and will test something very similar to it this weekend.
I think I'd play Bojuka Bog as the 25th land, as I'm pretty afraid of Living End. It's also good against Pod and is okay against Snapcaster. Speaking of which, I really think 1 Snapcaster is great in Gifts. How about playing it over 1 Knight or the Scavenging Ooze?
I think the mana base might need a slight rework to accommodate the Knights. Maybe an extra Overgrown Tomb and Godless Shrine? Maybe you could cut the basic Island (as the list looks very light on blue, and I find that having Island, Plains, or a colourless-producing land in the opening hand is sometimes very bad). The second cut could be something like 1 Creeping Tar Pit or Ghost Quarter? I feel less need to run multiple Tar Pits with the Knights to tutor one up in case we need to hit an opposing planeswalker or something. There's also less need for manland beats when we're running Knights.
We probably want access to at least one of Vault of the Archangel and Gavony Township (possibly also Academy Ruins), but I'm not really sure which is best between Vault and Township. Township makes Birds a bit less useless in the late game, and works nicely with spirit tokens, but Vault can be really powerful against aggro when we run larger creatures such as the Knights. Unfortunately, I don't think this deck can tolerate more than 2 colourless-only lands, as I got colour-screwed an unfortunate amount of the time when I ran 3 of them. Tectonic Edge is a must, and I would hate to lose Ghost Quarter...
How is your experience with the 2 Paths and 1 Dismember instead of 3 Paths (my other removal is the same as yours)? I've considered making the switch to the 2/1 split, as Dismember is better early, but I seem to run into a ton of Wurmcoil, and Path is a bit better against Pod and Living End.
Sometimes Dismember is great and sometimes is just a slightly worst Path to Exile. There were times were my opponent wasn't expecting it and it was great. That said, is still something I'm testing. Path to Exile is just too good.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
a 4-CC Gifts Deck won the Sioux Falls PTQ (107 people). It looked like a fun deck. It was BGuw. It had Gravetitan and Life From the Loam. I can't wait to see the deck list. It was sweet.
Hi!
Thanks again for the side “guide” you provided.
First, I have a couple questions about your list if you don’t mind
I’m still relatively new to the deck so it might sound dumb but I’m curious:
- I noticed you don’t play a basic island. Is it something you miss sometimes for example after boarding the 2 Dispel?
- On the other hand, you chose to play a Stirring Wildwood. Never tried the card myself but I’m curious about what purpose it actually serves.
- How do you feel about the 2 birds? I’ve always thought that if you want to ramp reliably, you need like 4 to 6 mana dorks. How was the ratio of games were you had it in you opening hand vs late game dead topdeck?
- Do you feel like the 4 Decay are absolutely required in the list? Vs for example 3 + another “kill something” card, dismember maybe? Or a second Lingering Souls?
As far as sideboard goes, it looks really good!
You seem to side out the 3 Lilis quite often, that’s something I rarely do because it has always seemed really good, no matter the situation (discard or sacrifice), what do you think?
My current list has a Terastodon vs Tron. Never had the opportunity to test it since he is on at my FNM, ever tried it?
You have 2 Timely Reinforcements but only side 1 against Jund, just a typo maybe?
Last question and I stop being annoying My meta is pretty much similar to yours except there are a couple of hatebears decks floating around. How would you side against it?
Also super curious about that list that won a PTQ! Especially about if he runs Goyf or not… I’m on the verge on buying them and with two lists showing good results with it, I would probably give in
I think if we wanna go goyf-less and be competitive it is possible, but I noticed that basically without a discard spell and two removals early we weren't really playing a deck suitable for modern. I mean to say that we start 'playing' turn 3/4 rather than right off the bat and no matter how powerful the end game, thats just not a realistic expectation. Finks and rat, even they just chump have been really helpful to help shore up the early game. I cut grave titan and added a third inquisition as I also felt that it helps get the deck going early and having too much discard wasn't a big deal late because you may have drawn a rat by then. Try it out.
(match 1) Merfolk is only rough if we dont draw removal otherwise theyre playing 2/2s for 2(match 3) Also Phantasmal image can be a real pain copying Iona or Norn, bleh, not playing around the card led to some sloppy losses. Master of the Waves can be tricky, most notably abrupt decay doesnt hit it and Liliana cries too... Maelstrom pulse was great and I like 2 in the 75, brought the 2nd in in all matches.
I decided on a couple mana leaks in the main since im going for the goyfless controlling version and they were awesome. Duress will also be going in the side since now i can take out a negate or 2. Hand disruption has been paramount for my wins and choosing the wrong card has lead to quite a few losses. With the addition of counterspell back up hand disruption acts almnost as a 2 for 1 as it allows me to counter what is appropriate.
I found Pack rat really good too
I think that's the thread you're looking for.
I think Raven's Crime + Loam is just too good to pass.
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 <another land>
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
4 Gifts Ungiven
2 Lingering Souls
1 Unburial Rites
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
My thoughts so far:
- I'm not sure about the 25th land. Was thinking on trying Vault of the Archangel, but I'm hesitant to run 4 colorless lands with such greedy manabase. Perhaps a Celestial Colonnade? Another Creeping Tarpit? Bojuka Bog maybe?
- As I'm sure everyone already know, Knight of the Reliquary is not a Tarmogoyf. Most of the times I'm like "girl, I wish you were a goyf now!", although from time to time she's and absolute beast.
- Thragtusk is huge for life gain, as you can usually Gifts for Thragtusk + Unburial + X + Y against aggro. Love it.
- Scooze is really good, but I don't think I can afford to run more than one, as usually I don't have that much green mana at my disposal.
- Iona was moved to the sideboard, more a meta-call than anything else
I really, really want to make KKnight of the Reliquary to work, but at the end of the day it seems that she's always outclassed but the green Lhurgoyf.
As I don't own any Tarmogoyf, should I go back to a more control-ish build? Any thoughts?
I also don't have access to Goyfs, and would like to make Knight of the Reliquary work. I like your list, and will test something very similar to it this weekend.
I think I'd play Bojuka Bog as the 25th land, as I'm pretty afraid of Living End. It's also good against Pod and is okay against Snapcaster. Speaking of which, I really think 1 Snapcaster is great in Gifts. How about playing it over 1 Knight or the Scavenging Ooze?
I think the mana base might need a slight rework to accommodate the Knights. Maybe an extra Overgrown Tomb and Godless Shrine? Maybe you could cut the basic Island (as the list looks very light on blue, and I find that having Island, Plains, or a colourless-producing land in the opening hand is sometimes very bad). The second cut could be something like 1 Creeping Tar Pit or Ghost Quarter? I feel less need to run multiple Tar Pits with the Knights to tutor one up in case we need to hit an opposing planeswalker or something. There's also less need for manland beats when we're running Knights.
We probably want access to at least one of Vault of the Archangel and Gavony Township (possibly also Academy Ruins), but I'm not really sure which is best between Vault and Township. Township makes Birds a bit less useless in the late game, and works nicely with spirit tokens, but Vault can be really powerful against aggro when we run larger creatures such as the Knights. Unfortunately, I don't think this deck can tolerate more than 2 colourless-only lands, as I got colour-screwed an unfortunate amount of the time when I ran 3 of them. Tectonic Edge is a must, and I would hate to lose Ghost Quarter...
How is your experience with the 2 Paths and 1 Dismember instead of 3 Paths (my other removal is the same as yours)? I've considered making the switch to the 2/1 split, as Dismember is better early, but I seem to run into a ton of Wurmcoil, and Path is a bit better against Pod and Living End.
Sometimes Dismember is great and sometimes is just a slightly worst Path to Exile. There were times were my opponent wasn't expecting it and it was great. That said, is still something I'm testing. Path to Exile is just too good.
Thanks again for the side “guide” you provided.
First, I have a couple questions about your list if you don’t mind
I’m still relatively new to the deck so it might sound dumb but I’m curious:
- I noticed you don’t play a basic island. Is it something you miss sometimes for example after boarding the 2 Dispel?
- On the other hand, you chose to play a Stirring Wildwood. Never tried the card myself but I’m curious about what purpose it actually serves.
- How do you feel about the 2 birds? I’ve always thought that if you want to ramp reliably, you need like 4 to 6 mana dorks. How was the ratio of games were you had it in you opening hand vs late game dead topdeck?
- Do you feel like the 4 Decay are absolutely required in the list? Vs for example 3 + another “kill something” card, dismember maybe? Or a second Lingering Souls?
As far as sideboard goes, it looks really good!
You seem to side out the 3 Lilis quite often, that’s something I rarely do because it has always seemed really good, no matter the situation (discard or sacrifice), what do you think?
My current list has a Terastodon vs Tron. Never had the opportunity to test it since he is on at my FNM, ever tried it?
You have 2 Timely Reinforcements but only side 1 against Jund, just a typo maybe?
Last question and I stop being annoying My meta is pretty much similar to yours except there are a couple of hatebears decks floating around. How would you side against it?
Also super curious about that list that won a PTQ! Especially about if he runs Goyf or not… I’m on the verge on buying them and with two lists showing good results with it, I would probably give in