I've been championing pox since day one, and honestly haven't encountered many decks that it isn't good against. The synergy with delve is great, as usually one pox will put three cards in your yard. I think people aren't liking it more because it causes you to generally have to play differently, having to wait a bit longer to drop a Lili and soforth. The fact that it puts us at a disadvantage, to me has never been an issue, as it will always put you opponent at a bigger one. It's just a matter of playing a little less reserved and a little more suicidal, but a turn two or three pox, compounded with our normal discard and removal, is often enough to win the game.
Pox is pretty decent in this metagame, that's for sure. As mentioned, it has great synergy with Cut, is a beating against both Burn and Junk, not to mention Zoo and Merfolk, and overall fits with our gameplan and playstyle. That is, except for one element: Land count. Our deck runs only 23 lands with no filter or card draw to find more. My average hand tends to have 2 lands with a third drawn by turn 3. Then you can expect the 4th around turn 5 or so. We'd have to calculate the probabilities for all that (there IS a mathematical correct answer for this question) to really know for sure. My concern with Pox is that it doesn't just slow us from getting the turn 3 Lilly/Bridge. By killing that one land, it might prevent this from happening until at least turn 5. I'm fine with Pox setting us back a turn if it also sets back the opponent at least a turn, but I'm not fine with Pox preventing us from landing our 3 mana cards until 2+ turns later. That's not a good tradeoff because most decks where Pox shines against are also decks that can recover from Pox faster than us. They are also decks that we will really want Lilly/Bridge against.
Early fetchlands don't even enable turn 2 Cuts. They enable turn 3+ Cuts at 1 mana, which is fine if you are targeting Eidolon or Goyf, but not fine if you are trying to slow down MS or Guide.
Following up from this, you could probably run fetchlands if you also ran something that slowed down Burn.
As for running something with the fetchlands that could slow down burn, how about Pyroclasm? You mentioned that the BR list does well against burn, and I think the BR list had Pyros in the SB, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Seems to hit that 2 toughness sweet spot for GG, MS, and Eidolon. It only costs 1R, making it splashable. The 2CMC makes it much more appealing than Drown in Sorrow at 1BB, as Pyro can be reliably cast on turn 2 when Burn gets that aggressive start. They may be able to save MS, but this is unlikely; they usually should be tapped out due to MS incentivizing them to cast their instants at sorcery speed.
However, if I were going to throw in lands for Murderous Cut efficiency/speed and for R to enable Pyroclasm, I would probably look to run Lightning Bolt as well. Because it's that good. But at this point I feel like this is more of a blend between the traditional mono-black 8 Rack and the BR Rack list. Not a bad thing per se, I'm just not sure that was the intent of the OP. (I think Esperino's list was like this but I can't remember if he had Pyro in his SB, the search function is bugging out on me.)
Also, while Bolt seems just plain good in most matchups, I'm not sure how Pyroclasm would fare in matchups besides Burn. Anyone have thoughts/results on this? I haven't played 8-Rack against many aggro decks so I feel unqualified to comment on it. But if Pyro doesn't fare well outside of Burn, I would be loath to adapt the manabase to fit Pyro in the SB just for the Burn matchup.
I've been championing pox since day one, and honestly haven't encountered many decks that it isn't good against. The synergy with delve is great, as usually one pox will put three cards in your yard. I think people aren't liking it more because it causes you to generally have to play differently, having to wait a bit longer to drop a Lili and soforth. The fact that it puts us at a disadvantage, to me has never been an issue, as it will always put you opponent at a bigger one. It's just a matter of playing a little less reserved and a little more suicidal, but a turn two or three pox, compounded with our normal discard and removal, is often enough to win the game.
Pox is pretty decent in this metagame, that's for sure. As mentioned, it has great synergy with Cut, is a beating against both Burn and Junk, not to mention Zoo and Merfolk, and overall fits with our gameplan and playstyle. That is, except for one element: Land count. Our deck runs only 23 lands with no filter or card draw to find more. My average hand tends to have 2 lands with a third drawn by turn 3. Then you can expect the 4th around turn 5 or so. We'd have to calculate the probabilities for all that (there IS a mathematical correct answer for this question) to really know for sure. My concern with Pox is that it doesn't just slow us from getting the turn 3 Lilly/Bridge. By killing that one land, it might prevent this from happening until at least turn 5. I'm fine with Pox setting us back a turn if it also sets back the opponent at least a turn, but I'm not fine with Pox preventing us from landing our 3 mana cards until 2+ turns later. That's not a good tradeoff because most decks where Pox shines against are also decks that can recover from Pox faster than us. They are also decks that we will really want Lilly/Bridge against.
I should probably go on to say i don't run bridge. With pox, the spot removal, and Lili i don't often find creatures being a problem. My deck is currently undergoing revision, but I'd been running 21 lands, all swamps but for two salvages (which i do sometimes end up using as actual land) but have honestly never had much of a problem. I also run four dark confidant, which obviously helps, and I've always been ok with it often reading "target opponent discards a removal card."
So all in all a bit different that the stock list, but everything else is still there same, and even still running the full eight racks.
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The answer is purple because ice cream has no bones.
I've been championing pox since day one, and honestly haven't encountered many decks that it isn't good against. The synergy with delve is great, as usually one pox will put three cards in your yard. I think people aren't liking it more because it causes you to generally have to play differently, having to wait a bit longer to drop a Lili and soforth. The fact that it puts us at a disadvantage, to me has never been an issue, as it will always put you opponent at a bigger one. It's just a matter of playing a little less reserved and a little more suicidal, but a turn two or three pox, compounded with our normal discard and removal, is often enough to win the game.
Pox is pretty decent in this metagame, that's for sure. As mentioned, it has great synergy with Cut, is a beating against both Burn and Junk, not to mention Zoo and Merfolk, and overall fits with our gameplan and playstyle. That is, except for one element: Land count. Our deck runs only 23 lands with no filter or card draw to find more. My average hand tends to have 2 lands with a third drawn by turn 3. Then you can expect the 4th around turn 5 or so. We'd have to calculate the probabilities for all that (there IS a mathematical correct answer for this question) to really know for sure. My concern with Pox is that it doesn't just slow us from getting the turn 3 Lilly/Bridge. By killing that one land, it might prevent this from happening until at least turn 5. I'm fine with Pox setting us back a turn if it also sets back the opponent at least a turn, but I'm not fine with Pox preventing us from landing our 3 mana cards until 2+ turns later. That's not a good tradeoff because most decks where Pox shines against are also decks that can recover from Pox faster than us. They are also decks that we will really want Lilly/Bridge against.
That was my experience when I used to run it for a long while (manascrewed me as often or moreso than opponents). Pox can run it because it has more land, Crucible, Top, etc. But against Burn it's less concerning, so I dunno. My instinct is no but I'm still a little open to it. I would never run it main.
Just played against Burn in the daily and they scooped to Syphon Life. Amazing card. Turns out dumping a bunch of Racks + Life is all you really need to win. Debating 2x Nyx 2x Life. Footage later.
As for running something with the fetchlands that could slow down burn, how about Pyroclasm? You mentioned that the BR list does well against burn, and I think the BR list had Pyros in the SB, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Seems to hit that 2 toughness sweet spot for GG, MS, and Eidolon. It only costs 1R, making it splashable. The 2CMC makes it much more appealing than Drown in Sorrow at 1BB, as Pyro can be reliably cast on turn 2 when Burn gets that aggressive start. They may be able to save MS, but this is unlikely; they usually should be tapped out due to MS incentivizing them to cast their instants at sorcery speed.
However, if I were going to throw in lands for Murderous Cut efficiency/speed and for R to enable Pyroclasm, I would probably look to run Lightning Bolt as well. Because it's that good. But at this point I feel like this is more of a blend between the traditional mono-black 8 Rack and the BR Rack list. Not a bad thing per se, I'm just not sure that was the intent of the OP. (I think Esperino's list was like this but I can't remember if he had Pyro in his SB, the search function is bugging out on me.)
Also, while Bolt seems just plain good in most matchups, I'm not sure how Pyroclasm would fare in matchups besides Burn. Anyone have thoughts/results on this? I haven't played 8-Rack against many aggro decks so I feel unqualified to comment on it. But if Pyro doesn't fare well outside of Burn, I would be loath to adapt the manabase to fit Pyro in the SB just for the Burn matchup.
Not a fan of Pyroclasm in this metagame. It's fine against Burn but inconsistent against Affinity. It's decent against Merfolk but terrible against Zoo. That's a little too inconsistent for me if I'm running a card that is supposed to be an answer to our aggro problems. Also, even against Burn (the deck it is supposedly good against), MS can easily dodge this if the opponent plays smart. Bolt is a lot better in that respect because it hits something in every aggro matchup, even if it doesn't hit quite as many "somethings" as Pyro. But at least when Bolt hits, it actually kills the problem. Not saying that Bolt is the solution, but I would run Bolt before I ever ran Pyro.
Just played against Burn in the daily and they scooped to Syphon Life. Amazing card. Turns out dumping a bunch of Racks + Life is all you really need to win. Footage later.
I'm really excited to try out Syphon in this matchup. I honestly think it might be maindeckable because it seems relevant in a lot of matchups. It's also the rare card that helps us beat Burn while not also ruining our midrange matchup.
Yeah, I think it could be too. Definitely in certain metas - maybe this one. What would we cut if we did main it? Thoughtseize? Victim? Swamp? I don't see any other options, and cutting those worries me.
Also, I tried Cut and I'm not sure I like it still, if only because with slower hands that have a piece or two of removal, you need to hit that removal asap to buy you more time. If you can't cast Cut quickly, it can screw you.
Yeah, I think it could be too. Definitely in certain metas - maybe this one. What would we cut if we did main it? Thoughtseize? Victim? Swamp? I don't see any other options, and cutting those worries me.
Also, I tried Cut and I'm not sure I like it still, if only because with slower hands that have a piece or two of removal, you need to hit that removal asap to buy you more time. If you can't cast Cut quickly, it can screw you.
In my list I have it replacing a Victim. Targeted discard is too important to shave imo. My rationalization is that it's not a comparable answer to removal, but it does help slow the bleed to buy you time.
To hedge, I put more removal in my SB. I'm thinking this:
3-1'd again with the "final" list below (except Cut, which I don't think I like). Standings screenshot; in-game screenshot. Footage below. Note some of the games are out of order because MTGO is ****ed.
Beat Time Warp, lost to Soul Sisters, beat Burn and Dredgevine. Time Warp was easier than it's been in the past for me - I suppose I owe a lot of that to Pack Rat. Soul Sisters is normally easy but I saw no Bridges, little removal, and kept a sketchy hand or two so that went terribly (note in the footage I tried to kill his Pridemage but apparently the 'pause on block phase' setting had been disabled so I wasn't able to, not that it mattered much). Burn was down to topdecks one game. In the other I slowed him down by dropping a bunch of Racks early (very important strategy for this match - they're not just for racing), and then Syphon Life'd the crap out of him, at which point he conceded. Dredgevine was easily beaten with Bridge. Assuming they don't Decay or Grudge your only one, you're fine - for whatever reasons I saw no Decay or Grudge from him.
Nyxathid is a monster against Burn. We are currently 14 games into the game 2 tests and 8Rack is rocking (racking?) a 71% (10/14) win rate. I'm sure this will go down a bit more as the tests proceed, but Nyx is really pulling weight. Of the 10 wins, 5 are directly attributable to Nyx and Nyx alone. Indeed, I've only lost 2 of the 7 total games where I have seen Nyx, and one of those was to mana screw (couldn't get a third land before turn 7, despite an opening hand with 2 lands). Syphon Life is also quite decent, although the Relic that our Burn player sided in has dampened its effectiveness; he brought in Relic in place of lands because it's basically a cantrip and he knows we had the Crimes even before sideboarding. Even with Relic, however, the card is still quite good and has directly won 2 games and contributed in a few others.
So with just these preliminary results in, I can say that I am loving the sideboard plan against Burn. I'm currently doing -4 Bridge, -2 Rat, and -1 Crime for +3 Nyx, +2 Syphon, +1 Cut, and +1 Darkblast. I'm not totally sold on the Cut/DB, but I'm a true believer in Nyx/Syphon in this matchup.
This is the list im using now, what changes do you guys think i could do ? My meta is Junk, Merfolk, Tron, Auras, Goblins, Burn, Bloom Titan, BW Mid and Tokens, Twin and Affinity .
@SBurani
I strongly recommend you look through the primer for additional ideas. It's one of the best maintained and most frequently updated primers on the site.
That said, off the top of my head here are the things I would change.
-1 Muta, +1 Swamp: Muta is good but losing games to hands where you don't have BB on turn 2 is not.
-1 Pack Rat, +1 Removal: Against something like Junk or UWR Midrange, Rat is a monster. But against Burn, Amulet Bloom, Affinity, and a ton of other decks, it's very weak. Given the metagame right now, I don't think anyone should be running more than 2 unless they know for a fact that there is going to be lots of grindy matchups.
-1 Waste Not, +1 Removal/alt win con: Waste Not is very inconsistent and not a great topdeck. Your singleton spells in a deck like this should be strong topdecks past turn 5, or singleton versions of redundant effects.
Removal ideas include Slaughter Pact, Murderous Cut, additional Victims, or whatever else you might prefer.
Alternate win cards to replace Waste Not might be Syphon Life (good against grind AND aggro).
@SBurani
I strongly recommend you look through the primer for additional ideas. It's one of the best maintained and most frequently updated primers on the site.
That said, off the top of my head here are the things I would change.
-1 Muta, +1 Swamp: Muta is good but losing games to hands where you don't have BB on turn 2 is not.
-1 Pack Rat, +1 Removal: Against something like Junk or UWR Midrange, Rat is a monster. But against Burn, Amulet Bloom, Affinity, and a ton of other decks, it's very weak. Given the metagame right now, I don't think anyone should be running more than 2 unless they know for a fact that there is going to be lots of grindy matchups.
-1 Waste Not, +1 Removal/alt win con: Waste Not is very inconsistent and not a great topdeck. Your singleton spells in a deck like this should be strong topdecks past turn 5, or singleton versions of redundant effects.
Removal ideas include Slaughter Pact, Murderous Cut, additional Victims, or whatever else you might prefer.
Alternate win cards to replace Waste Not might be Syphon Life (good against grind AND aggro).
Well thanks.
Don't forget Nyxathid sideboard.
Edit: sideboarding plans in the primer have been updated. I'll get to card choices and options soon.
Edit: Card choices and options done. Also tweaked the primer decklist and ordering of the card choices so they're grouped properly.
Went to a small event this evening and didn't make out so well, went 1-2 over all. At the risk of making excuses, I felt like I had some terrible matchups, but if not, maybe you guys can show me where I went off the rails. Decklist was mostly the same as last time but with a few minor changes, after seeing some of Destroyers videos, thanks so much for taking the time to put them together by the way, I am looking to get a hold of some sideboard Nyxathids, because I am becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Leyline of Sanctity. I think they would have helped tonight for sure.
Inquisition of K. x4
Thoughtsieze x3
Raven's Crime x4
Wrench Mind x4
Liliana of the Veil x4
Ensnaring Bridge x4
Victim of night x3
Slaughter Pact x1
Pack Rat x2
Syphon Life x1
The Rack x4
Shrieking Affliction x4
Dakmore Salvage x2
Mutavault x3
Urborg x4
Buried Ruin x2
Swamp x11
Leyline of Sanctity x4
Darkblast x2
Pack Rat x1
Pithing Needle x2
Surgical Extraction x4
Bile Blight x2
Round 1 R/G Tron Game one, he pretty much just pulled out the tron and I watched helplessly as a wurmcoil beat me to death. For sideboarding, I brought in +2 Pithing Needles and +4 Surgical extractions, -4 wrench mind, -1 Bridge, and -1 Syphon Life. Game 2, opponent drops T0 Leyline of Sanctity, I kept an openner with a mutavault and a needle, set the needle to his expedition map, a play that seemed subpar at the time, but would go on to win me the game. While he tries to draw his tron pieces, that lone mutavault and one rack with lily discard backup eventually get me there, I extract his wurmcoils at some point, preventing him from playing any as he started to draw lands. Game three, he drops the Leyline again, apparently keeping a hand with only one land, a ghost quarter. My decent hand of a healthy blend of targeted and not so targeted discard is suddenly terrible, but I land a lily and begin the discarding slowly, while getting in some mutavault beats. As soon as I drop a pack rat he GQs my mutavault, all the while I hold back on +1ing lily to keep a Victim of Night in my hand thinking it may somehow make the difference if he sundering titans or wurmcoils. Rats get him down to 6 life and I have him dead on board next turn, then he top decks and pops an O-stone. Robbed. He ancient stirrings, and in desperation, I surgical a map in his graveyard, thinking I may not have another chance to play one. this reveals a wurmcoil, karn, and Ugin in his hand, yikes. His stirrings resolves and he gets himself something nasty, then plays a wurmcoil. I still have the VoN in my hand, then draw another surgical. I pass the turn and when he swings,I victim the wurmcoil, then extract it,yanking another from his hand. Game ends with him resolving a karn and removing any racks I play to race his wurm tokens. It was a really fun game actually and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, very close.
0-1
Round 2 This next guy was playing a Doran junk deck much like the one in one of Destroyers recent videos. I felt really helpless the whole match pretty much,but perhaps I went about it incorrectly, I really feel as though Nyxathid could have made the difference here. G1 was an absolute beatdown, I discarded some of his stuff,spellskites, a doran, and a Rhino, but he just swung under bridge with a second doran and I drew no more removal. I really didnt feel good about sideboard options here, all the removal I had seemed too small, though in hindsight I could have brought in bile blights for souls tokens. In the end I just decided on -1 slaughter pact and +1 Pack Rat. I target discard spellskite and a doran, then proceed to go on a crime spree to empty his hand for my rack. Rack and mutavault begins to race his two tokens and a rapidly growing scavenging ooze, I topdeck into lands for days and promptly lose. Nothing to see here. I saw that he brought in tons of artifact removal and dudes that come into play when discarded, really brutal deck to play against, Doran pretty much turns Bridge into a CMC3 artifact with no text.
0-2
Round 3 U/G Infect. Fella opens on a T1 glistener elf after I mull to 6 with a relatively slow hand, 2 lily,a mutavault, swamp,victim of night, and a rack. He starts laying on the infect and I quickly find out that this is a very budget/janky deck,only basic lands, Core Prowler, Decimator Web, suboptimal pump spells, etc. Mutavault bites the dust to stave off 6 infect dmg cause he mainphased a pump spell and swung with elf and signal pest, I dont draw enough lands to Victim or lily,end up slaughter pacting and killing myself rather than giving him the satisfaction. I felt really good with my sideboard. -4 bridge, -1 Syphon life, +2 darkblast,+2 bile blight, +1 rat. G2, he mulls to 6, I open with a much better hand, give him the IoK, he reveals 3 forest, that aforementioned prowler thing, a distortion strike, and a lay of the land. I take the strike, he searches an island on his turn,then I wrench mind and again the following turn, establish a lily and double rack lock and win quickly. G3 goes very similar, I Victim of night an elf at some point and lily, a rack and mutavault put him down.
Final 1-2
I had a good time as usual, but was slightly disappointed. Would like to comment on a few cards, as is the opinion of most I believe, mutavault as a 3 of is pure gold here, even without rat I would still run them, they are a great team player. I didnt see Syphon Life, but didnt really have a time all night where I would have wanted it in those games, however, apparently there were quite a few burn players there so I feel as though it was a justified inclusion. Plan to try a new sideboard with -4 leyline, +3 Nyxathid and +1 Syphon Life. I have tested a few games on Cockatrice using a "Ghast Rack" build really trying to take advantage of smallpox, but it seems that most of the people I find on there are running weird janky stuff so I dont know if they are a good indicator of its potential power. That deck did manage to beat the Esper control deck that I know was mentioned as a bad matchup, Necrogen Mists is real, and I may also think of cutting the sideboard rat for mists as a one of. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Bloodghast smallpox list when I get back up to school. Peace rackers.
-1 Muta, +1 Swamp: Muta is good but losing games to hands where you don't have BB on turn 2 is not.
-1 Pack Rat, +1 Removal: Against something like Junk or UWR Midrange, Rat is a monster. But against Burn, Amulet Bloom, Affinity, and a ton of other decks, it's very weak. Given the metagame right now, I don't think anyone should be running more than 2 unless they know for a fact that there is going to be lots of grindy matchups.
-1 Waste Not, +1 Removal/alt win con: Waste Not is very inconsistent and not a great topdeck. Your singleton spells in a deck like this should be strong topdecks past turn 5, or singleton versions of redundant effects.
Removal ideas include Slaughter Pact, Murderous Cut, additional Victims, or whatever else you might prefer.
Alternate win cards to replace Waste Not might be Syphon Life (good against grind AND aggro).
Well thanks.
Don't forget Nyxathid sideboard.
Well, i followed the instructions u guys gave me and went to a small event here, made 3-0, against BW Tokens, Melfork and Burn. Still gonna try Nyxathid.
I'm glad you guys are giving another look to Nyxathid. Nyxathid essentially did win me both matchups against Burn because it is just too big too quickly for the matchup to handle, and they can't expend two cards to deal with it because the deck doesn't allow them to have two burn spells in hand for very long.
I don't have much in the way of long-term updates for you guys. I've been playing with 21 lands, down from 22, and the basic swamp out for a 4th Nyxathid in the main deck of the BR version. The format has gotten to the point where having multiple Nyxathids has been insane pretty much every time, and I don't think I've really lost many sets in the last week. I'm still working on Sideboard changes pretty heavily. Will post changes as they come.
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Modern: BR Control BR Standard: Temur Energy RUG Pauper: Fireball Black B Commander: Kaervek the MercilessBR
I'm glad you guys are giving another look to Nyxathid. Nyxathid essentially did win me both matchups against Burn because it is just too big too quickly for the matchup to handle, and they can't expend two cards to deal with it because the deck doesn't allow them to have two burn spells in hand for very long.
I don't have much in the way of long-term updates for you guys. I've been playing with 21 lands, down from 22, and the basic swamp out for a 4th Nyxathid in the main deck of the BR version. The format has gotten to the point where having multiple Nyxathids has been insane pretty much every time, and I don't think I've really lost many sets in the last week. I'm still working on Sideboard changes pretty heavily. Will post changes as they come.
I'm finishing up my test writeup from games 2/3 against Burn. I'll post it tomorrow, but here are some preview points. First, Nyx is a monster against Burn. That deck just can't deal with it. I question it's value against Junk, but it's definitely a killer against Burn. Second, between Nyx, more removal, and Syphon Life, the win rate improved to a strong 65%, 75% on the play and 55% on the draw. This bodes well for 8Rack's future in a metagame with lots of Burn, and Nyx is a big part of that.
Pox is pretty decent in this metagame, that's for sure. As mentioned, it has great synergy with Cut, is a beating against both Burn and Junk, not to mention Zoo and Merfolk, and overall fits with our gameplan and playstyle. That is, except for one element: Land count. Our deck runs only 23 lands with no filter or card draw to find more. My average hand tends to have 2 lands with a third drawn by turn 3. Then you can expect the 4th around turn 5 or so. We'd have to calculate the probabilities for all that (there IS a mathematical correct answer for this question) to really know for sure. My concern with Pox is that it doesn't just slow us from getting the turn 3 Lilly/Bridge. By killing that one land, it might prevent this from happening until at least turn 5. I'm fine with Pox setting us back a turn if it also sets back the opponent at least a turn, but I'm not fine with Pox preventing us from landing our 3 mana cards until 2+ turns later. That's not a good tradeoff because most decks where Pox shines against are also decks that can recover from Pox faster than us. They are also decks that we will really want Lilly/Bridge against.
^ This.
As for running something with the fetchlands that could slow down burn, how about Pyroclasm? You mentioned that the BR list does well against burn, and I think the BR list had Pyros in the SB, but please correct me if I'm wrong. Seems to hit that 2 toughness sweet spot for GG, MS, and Eidolon. It only costs 1R, making it splashable. The 2CMC makes it much more appealing than Drown in Sorrow at 1BB, as Pyro can be reliably cast on turn 2 when Burn gets that aggressive start. They may be able to save MS, but this is unlikely; they usually should be tapped out due to MS incentivizing them to cast their instants at sorcery speed.
However, if I were going to throw in lands for Murderous Cut efficiency/speed and for R to enable Pyroclasm, I would probably look to run Lightning Bolt as well. Because it's that good. But at this point I feel like this is more of a blend between the traditional mono-black 8 Rack and the BR Rack list. Not a bad thing per se, I'm just not sure that was the intent of the OP. (I think Esperino's list was like this but I can't remember if he had Pyro in his SB, the search function is bugging out on me.)
Also, while Bolt seems just plain good in most matchups, I'm not sure how Pyroclasm would fare in matchups besides Burn. Anyone have thoughts/results on this? I haven't played 8-Rack against many aggro decks so I feel unqualified to comment on it. But if Pyro doesn't fare well outside of Burn, I would be loath to adapt the manabase to fit Pyro in the SB just for the Burn matchup.
I should probably go on to say i don't run bridge. With pox, the spot removal, and Lili i don't often find creatures being a problem. My deck is currently undergoing revision, but I'd been running 21 lands, all swamps but for two salvages (which i do sometimes end up using as actual land) but have honestly never had much of a problem. I also run four dark confidant, which obviously helps, and I've always been ok with it often reading "target opponent discards a removal card."
So all in all a bit different that the stock list, but everything else is still there same, and even still running the full eight racks.
That was my experience when I used to run it for a long while (manascrewed me as often or moreso than opponents). Pox can run it because it has more land, Crucible, Top, etc. But against Burn it's less concerning, so I dunno. My instinct is no but I'm still a little open to it. I would never run it main.
Just played against Burn in the daily and they scooped to Syphon Life. Amazing card. Turns out dumping a bunch of Racks + Life is all you really need to win. Debating 2x Nyx 2x Life. Footage later.
Not a fan of Pyroclasm in this metagame. It's fine against Burn but inconsistent against Affinity. It's decent against Merfolk but terrible against Zoo. That's a little too inconsistent for me if I'm running a card that is supposed to be an answer to our aggro problems. Also, even against Burn (the deck it is supposedly good against), MS can easily dodge this if the opponent plays smart. Bolt is a lot better in that respect because it hits something in every aggro matchup, even if it doesn't hit quite as many "somethings" as Pyro. But at least when Bolt hits, it actually kills the problem. Not saying that Bolt is the solution, but I would run Bolt before I ever ran Pyro.
I'm really excited to try out Syphon in this matchup. I honestly think it might be maindeckable because it seems relevant in a lot of matchups. It's also the rare card that helps us beat Burn while not also ruining our midrange matchup.
Also, I tried Cut and I'm not sure I like it still, if only because with slower hands that have a piece or two of removal, you need to hit that removal asap to buy you more time. If you can't cast Cut quickly, it can screw you.
In my list I have it replacing a Victim. Targeted discard is too important to shave imo. My rationalization is that it's not a comparable answer to removal, but it does help slow the bleed to buy you time.
To hedge, I put more removal in my SB. I'm thinking this:
2 Bile Blight
1 Smother
1 Murderous Cut
2 Darkblast
3 Nyxathid
1 Shrieking Affliction
2 Pithing Needle
Note: I'm still on 22 land with 4 Mutavault; my extra card is the 3rd Rat main
3-1'd again with the "final" list below (except Cut, which I don't think I like). Standings screenshot; in-game screenshot. Footage below. Note some of the games are out of order because MTGO is ****ed.
Beat Time Warp, lost to Soul Sisters, beat Burn and Dredgevine. Time Warp was easier than it's been in the past for me - I suppose I owe a lot of that to Pack Rat. Soul Sisters is normally easy but I saw no Bridges, little removal, and kept a sketchy hand or two so that went terribly (note in the footage I tried to kill his Pridemage but apparently the 'pause on block phase' setting had been disabled so I wasn't able to, not that it mattered much). Burn was down to topdecks one game. In the other I slowed him down by dropping a bunch of Racks early (very important strategy for this match - they're not just for racing), and then Syphon Life'd the crap out of him, at which point he conceded. Dredgevine was easily beaten with Bridge. Assuming they don't Decay or Grudge your only one, you're fine - for whatever reasons I saw no Decay or Grudge from him.
15 Swamp
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mutavault
Creatures: 2
2 Pack Rat
Other spells: 35
4 Raven's Crime
3 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Thoughtseize
2 Victim of Night
1 Murderous Cut
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Wrench Mind
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Darkblast
1 Pack Rat
2 Bile Blight
1 Syphon Life
3 Nyxathid
1 Shrieking Affliction
Drafted a lot during ONS.
So with just these preliminary results in, I can say that I am loving the sideboard plan against Burn. I'm currently doing -4 Bridge, -2 Rat, and -1 Crime for +3 Nyx, +2 Syphon, +1 Cut, and +1 Darkblast. I'm not totally sold on the Cut/DB, but I'm a true believer in Nyx/Syphon in this matchup.
I'm skeptical of cutting Crime as we need lots of ways to discard that don't hurt us (TS).
12 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mutavault
Creatures: 3
3 Pack Rat
Other spells: 35
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
2 Victim of Night
1 Waste Not
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Darkblast
2 Bile Blight
4 Leyline of Sanctity
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I strongly recommend you look through the primer for additional ideas. It's one of the best maintained and most frequently updated primers on the site.
That said, off the top of my head here are the things I would change.
-1 Muta, +1 Swamp: Muta is good but losing games to hands where you don't have BB on turn 2 is not.
-1 Pack Rat, +1 Removal: Against something like Junk or UWR Midrange, Rat is a monster. But against Burn, Amulet Bloom, Affinity, and a ton of other decks, it's very weak. Given the metagame right now, I don't think anyone should be running more than 2 unless they know for a fact that there is going to be lots of grindy matchups.
-1 Waste Not, +1 Removal/alt win con: Waste Not is very inconsistent and not a great topdeck. Your singleton spells in a deck like this should be strong topdecks past turn 5, or singleton versions of redundant effects.
Removal ideas include Slaughter Pact, Murderous Cut, additional Victims, or whatever else you might prefer.
Alternate win cards to replace Waste Not might be Syphon Life (good against grind AND aggro).
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Well thanks.
Don't forget Nyxathid sideboard.
Edit: sideboarding plans in the primer have been updated. I'll get to card choices and options soon.
Edit: Card choices and options done. Also tweaked the primer decklist and ordering of the card choices so they're grouped properly.
Inquisition of K. x4
Thoughtsieze x3
Raven's Crime x4
Wrench Mind x4
Liliana of the Veil x4
Ensnaring Bridge x4
Victim of night x3
Slaughter Pact x1
Pack Rat x2
Syphon Life x1
The Rack x4
Shrieking Affliction x4
Dakmore Salvage x2
Mutavault x3
Urborg x4
Buried Ruin x2
Swamp x11
Leyline of Sanctity x4
Darkblast x2
Pack Rat x1
Pithing Needle x2
Surgical Extraction x4
Bile Blight x2
Round 1 R/G Tron Game one, he pretty much just pulled out the tron and I watched helplessly as a wurmcoil beat me to death. For sideboarding, I brought in +2 Pithing Needles and +4 Surgical extractions, -4 wrench mind, -1 Bridge, and -1 Syphon Life. Game 2, opponent drops T0 Leyline of Sanctity, I kept an openner with a mutavault and a needle, set the needle to his expedition map, a play that seemed subpar at the time, but would go on to win me the game. While he tries to draw his tron pieces, that lone mutavault and one rack with lily discard backup eventually get me there, I extract his wurmcoils at some point, preventing him from playing any as he started to draw lands. Game three, he drops the Leyline again, apparently keeping a hand with only one land, a ghost quarter. My decent hand of a healthy blend of targeted and not so targeted discard is suddenly terrible, but I land a lily and begin the discarding slowly, while getting in some mutavault beats. As soon as I drop a pack rat he GQs my mutavault, all the while I hold back on +1ing lily to keep a Victim of Night in my hand thinking it may somehow make the difference if he sundering titans or wurmcoils. Rats get him down to 6 life and I have him dead on board next turn, then he top decks and pops an O-stone. Robbed. He ancient stirrings, and in desperation, I surgical a map in his graveyard, thinking I may not have another chance to play one. this reveals a wurmcoil, karn, and Ugin in his hand, yikes. His stirrings resolves and he gets himself something nasty, then plays a wurmcoil. I still have the VoN in my hand, then draw another surgical. I pass the turn and when he swings,I victim the wurmcoil, then extract it,yanking another from his hand. Game ends with him resolving a karn and removing any racks I play to race his wurm tokens. It was a really fun game actually and I was on the edge of my seat the whole time, very close.
0-1
Round 2 This next guy was playing a Doran junk deck much like the one in one of Destroyers recent videos. I felt really helpless the whole match pretty much,but perhaps I went about it incorrectly, I really feel as though Nyxathid could have made the difference here. G1 was an absolute beatdown, I discarded some of his stuff,spellskites, a doran, and a Rhino, but he just swung under bridge with a second doran and I drew no more removal. I really didnt feel good about sideboard options here, all the removal I had seemed too small, though in hindsight I could have brought in bile blights for souls tokens. In the end I just decided on -1 slaughter pact and +1 Pack Rat. I target discard spellskite and a doran, then proceed to go on a crime spree to empty his hand for my rack. Rack and mutavault begins to race his two tokens and a rapidly growing scavenging ooze, I topdeck into lands for days and promptly lose. Nothing to see here. I saw that he brought in tons of artifact removal and dudes that come into play when discarded, really brutal deck to play against, Doran pretty much turns Bridge into a CMC3 artifact with no text.
0-2
Round 3 U/G Infect. Fella opens on a T1 glistener elf after I mull to 6 with a relatively slow hand, 2 lily,a mutavault, swamp,victim of night, and a rack. He starts laying on the infect and I quickly find out that this is a very budget/janky deck,only basic lands, Core Prowler, Decimator Web, suboptimal pump spells, etc. Mutavault bites the dust to stave off 6 infect dmg cause he mainphased a pump spell and swung with elf and signal pest, I dont draw enough lands to Victim or lily,end up slaughter pacting and killing myself rather than giving him the satisfaction. I felt really good with my sideboard. -4 bridge, -1 Syphon life, +2 darkblast,+2 bile blight, +1 rat. G2, he mulls to 6, I open with a much better hand, give him the IoK, he reveals 3 forest, that aforementioned prowler thing, a distortion strike, and a lay of the land. I take the strike, he searches an island on his turn,then I wrench mind and again the following turn, establish a lily and double rack lock and win quickly. G3 goes very similar, I Victim of night an elf at some point and lily, a rack and mutavault put him down.
Final 1-2
I had a good time as usual, but was slightly disappointed. Would like to comment on a few cards, as is the opinion of most I believe, mutavault as a 3 of is pure gold here, even without rat I would still run them, they are a great team player. I didnt see Syphon Life, but didnt really have a time all night where I would have wanted it in those games, however, apparently there were quite a few burn players there so I feel as though it was a justified inclusion. Plan to try a new sideboard with -4 leyline, +3 Nyxathid and +1 Syphon Life. I have tested a few games on Cockatrice using a "Ghast Rack" build really trying to take advantage of smallpox, but it seems that most of the people I find on there are running weird janky stuff so I dont know if they are a good indicator of its potential power. That deck did manage to beat the Esper control deck that I know was mentioned as a bad matchup, Necrogen Mists is real, and I may also think of cutting the sideboard rat for mists as a one of. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Bloodghast smallpox list when I get back up to school. Peace rackers.
Well, i followed the instructions u guys gave me and went to a small event here, made 3-0, against BW Tokens, Melfork and Burn. Still gonna try Nyxathid.
This is the list
13 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mutavault
Creatures: 2
2 Pack Rat
Other spells: 35
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Wrench Mind
2 Victim of Night
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Murderous Cut
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Darkblast
2 Bile Blight
4 Leyline of Sanctity
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I don't have much in the way of long-term updates for you guys. I've been playing with 21 lands, down from 22, and the basic swamp out for a 4th Nyxathid in the main deck of the BR version. The format has gotten to the point where having multiple Nyxathids has been insane pretty much every time, and I don't think I've really lost many sets in the last week. I'm still working on Sideboard changes pretty heavily. Will post changes as they come.
Standard: Temur Energy RUG
Pauper: Fireball Black B
Commander: Kaervek the Merciless BR
"Always Bolt the Bird."
I'm finishing up my test writeup from games 2/3 against Burn. I'll post it tomorrow, but here are some preview points. First, Nyx is a monster against Burn. That deck just can't deal with it. I question it's value against Junk, but it's definitely a killer against Burn. Second, between Nyx, more removal, and Syphon Life, the win rate improved to a strong 65%, 75% on the play and 55% on the draw. This bodes well for 8Rack's future in a metagame with lots of Burn, and Nyx is a big part of that.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Siege Rhino
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
Land (23)
3 Gavony Township
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG