Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
hey guys, do you think that card may se some game in our deck? hallowed spiritkeeper
Unfortunately, the Commander cards aren't legal in Modern, so Hallowed Spiritkeeper won't be seeing play in this deck unless it's reprinted in a Standard-legal set.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Any feedback good or bad would be really appreciated.
I like Junk Taxes.
I think your curve is a little too high. You have 7 4-drops. I realize that Siege Rhino is a great card for this deck, but you don't want two in your opening hand.
I'm sure that it depends on the matchup, but I'm not sure how powerful Scavenging Ooze is in the mainboard. It stops Storm, and it shrinks Tarmogoyf, but I'd prefer that slot be Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader, or Brimaz. If you'll notice, you don't have many 3-drops, which is strange, because that's what you're trying to curve into if BoP is your T1 play. (If you have a hand with both BoP and Æther Vial, I imagine that you lead with Æther Vial, so that you can play a 4 CMC card on T3.)
Consider 1-2 copies of Eternal Witness. That card is really good in Junk Taxes.
I also think you have too many shocklands. Yes, you need to get the mana consistent, but this manabase is dealing you too much damage. My manabases are pretty greedy, but check the Esper list that I posted for what I think your mana should look like.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hey y'all, I played around 8 games against junk decks tonight with a W/u list. Half of the games were against a more traditional build with dark confidants and the other deck played finks. I won like 4 games, but I felt like I got lucky to win that many. Some thoughts:
- G1 I did not win any grindy matchups. I only won if I messed with their mana. This might be a function of my list, which is light on top-end. Still, they have so many 4/5s that idk what's to be done in the long game.
- Blinking Blade Splicers to stall the ground seemed risky because they can interrupt the blink or maelstrom pulse the tokens. It's dangerous to gang block against path and decay as well.
- I'm not sure if Thalia is good. They have many creatures, but they always kept in removal. Judge's familiar was trash.
- Jotun grunt was alright. It got sniped by discard and removal, which might be a hint.
- I boarded those cards out for Celestial Purge, Hibernation, Fiend Hunter, and Ephara. I'm not sure that Ephara is the way to go here but I'm going to keep testing I think. Celestial Purge was an all-star. Hibernation was not good, although neither build had Hierarchs.
So nothing revelatory or conclusive, but I thought I'd share. We need a good plan against this matchup if we're going to survive in this Rhino world.
Hey y'all, I played around 8 games against junk decks tonight with a W/u list. Half of the games were against a more traditional build with dark confidants and the other deck played finks. I won like 4 games, but I felt like I got lucky to win that many. Some thoughts:
- G1 I did not win any grindy matchups. I only won if I messed with their mana. This might be a function of my list, which is light on top-end. Still, they have so many 4/5s that idk what's to be done in the long game.
- Blinking Blade Splicers to stall the ground seemed risky because they can interrupt the blink or maelstrom pulse the tokens. It's dangerous to gang block against path and decay as well.
- I'm not sure if Thalia is good. They have many creatures, but they always kept in removal. Judge's familiar was trash.
- Jotun grunt was alright. It got sniped by discard and removal, which might be a hint.
- I boarded those cards out for Celestial Purge, Hibernation, Fiend Hunter, and Ephara. I'm not sure that Ephara is the way to go here but I'm going to keep testing I think. Celestial Purge was an all-star. Hibernation was not good, although neither build had Hierarchs.
So nothing revelatory or conclusive, but I thought I'd share. We need a good plan against this matchup if we're going to survive in this Rhino world.
I think that W/U lists want to run stuff like Geist of Saint Traft and Vendilion Clique, the first because it makes their spot removal useless and puts a lot of pressure on them when backed by Eiganjo Castle, and the second because it takes away their heavy hitters from hand(I suppose you mean Tarmogoyf, Siege Rhino and Tasigur, the Golden Fang) which makes our spot removal way better. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is actually pretty good to keep them behind a turn for stuff like Liliana of the Veil and Maelstrom Pulse. I'd say our main plan should be keeping them from stabilizing their mana base with the usual suspects before they can settle down with a Rhino and beat us to death. Besides all that, even though Rest in Peace is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay, it hoses their Tarmos, Tasigurs and Lingering Souls badly if it manages to stick around, and is somewhat harder to remove than the Grunt, and Engineered Explosives can take care of any Spirits in play. Lastly, I think maybe Meddling Mage out of the board can give us a couple of turns to find some answers, so it could be worth checking out too. I could be completely wrong, but that's my take on the matchup - I probably need more testing to be completely sure.
Thanks for sharing! I really like the idea of tricolor D&T. It seems fun.
Some thoughts on your build:
I'm not sure why you included thorn of amethyst. I think that slot in pretty much any D&T variant could be something that does more.
I'm not sure you want 2 pontiff main board in this meta. Maybe move one to the side?
With Vendilion, it's going to be tricky playing it without a vial. Especially because you're tricolor. It's a great card, but it's especially good against decks combo/ control. Against agro, it's decent, but you might not need it. I might consider cutting it entirely, or maybe at least moving one to the side.
Sygg is really interesting, but it may not be right here. Mana will be a little easier to reach than with venilion, but maybe not at 2. You also you want more of a focus on 3cmc stuff.
I think you need blade splicer. Mindcensor is handy as well, but less so. Perhaps -2 thorn, -1 pontiff, -1 vendilion, +3 blade splicer, +1 mindcensor? I also might personally prefer -1 Ephara +1 resto just to abuse CiP (such as tidehollow), but it works just fine as is.
If we were to run counters (either main or side), Which one / how many / why?
The answer to this question depends on:
1) Whether or not Thalia is in the list
2) Whether or not the list is built with Tempo elements (AKA, running GoST)
The best counterspells, imho, are:
1) Remand. Played correctly, this basically becomes a Time Walk, which is a pretty big deal if you're swinging for 6 with GoST.
2) Mana Tithe. Never run more than one copy, and always board it out after your opponent sees it. This trick tends to work once, and sometimes you can make your opponent play around a playset that isn't there.
3) Mana Leak. It hits everything, and paying 3 can become difficult if we're blowing up our opponents' lands.
Honorable mentions:
1) Spell Pierce. It's hard to argue with the efficiency of this card, but Modern has many more creatures than Legacy does. Against a deck that's both noncreature-spell heavy and not running Thoughtseize, this can be really annoying to have to play around.
3) Rebuff the Wicked. It's a hard counter for targeted removal that can be run in mono-white. Sure, it's a 1-for-1 trade and it doesn't hit targeted abilities, but most counterspells are like that anyway. Against the right decks, this can be a pretty efficient counterspell that no one ever sees coming.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Thanks for sharing! I really like the idea of tricolor D&T. It seems fun.
To be clear, I think my Esper build is lacking a certain synergy that I like to see in D&T decks. However, it's been a while since I put together an Esper list, and I'm pretty sure this is in the ballpark of being playable.
I'm not sure why you included thorn of amethyst. I think that slot in pretty much any D&T variant could be something that does more.
Depending on the matchup, Thorn of Amethyst can be very underwhelming. It's essentially a few extra copies of Thalia, except instead of it being able to swing, you can drop it concurrently with Thalia for a compounded effect.
Here is what's going on: Esper colors push control and tempo elements. I realize D&T is generally regarded as a control deck, but WB and WU D&T are definitely more controlling than WR and WG. My goal for this build was to make sure that our opponents can't play spells, and that's done through some combination of Thalia, Thorn, Tidehollow, and Vendilion Clique. I don't think this is as effective as I want it to be, but it's not too far off. The problem with Meddling Mage is that, in order to be the most effective, it must follow at least one of the aforementioned cards.
So to speak to your point, I'm really putting pressure on noncreature decks by pushing the taxing elements. Good luck dropping that LotV, especially if I can potentially drop both a Thalia and a Thorn.
I'm not sure you want 2 pontiff main board in this meta. Maybe move one to the side?
Unfortunately, I can't really tune a deck based on a meta, because around me, there is no meta. You might be right though, I'm not sure how they perform in a vacuum. If I took them out for other things, they would definitely be in the board.
With Vendilion, it's going to be tricky playing it without a vial. Especially because you're tricolor. It's a great card, but it's especially good against decks combo/ control.
My manabase is pretty greedy, but I potentially have 11 blue sources (including the fetchlands). I'm sure there will be games when I can't hit Vendilion on the curve, but you might be surprised. By turn 3 on the play, the odds that I've seen at least one blue source are 86%. Again, I need two in order to be able to cast Vendilion, but without actually crunching the numbers, I think I'm looking at a 65-70% chance that I can curve into a Clique.
Clique is a card that helps me minimize threats that I can't see. I could move one to the board (and maybe I should, because it's legendary), but I'd prefer to see two copies than see zero.
Sygg is really interesting, but it may not be right here. Mana will be a little easier to reach than with venilion, but maybe not at 2.
Sygg is interesting, especially with Flickerwisp and Clique. I just think that it's too vulnerable to everything, and it can't easily swing. I'd rather run Dark Confidant for a consistent draw package (and of course, I'm not running that either).
I think you need blade splicer. Mindcensor is handy as well, but less so.
Mindcensor is a better fit for this deck than Blade Splicer. As a color identity, Esper isn't aggressive; Esper is control. Blade Splicer is very useful, but it's not pushing the control elements of my game plan.
I did think about Blade Splicer, but I think this deck has a hard time dealing with Tarmogoyf, and I'd almost rather run Mirran Crusader.
Thanks for your feedback. Whenever I have a chance, I'll try to take another look at this list and make it less rough around the edges.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
If we were to run counters (either main or side), Which one / how many / why?
Charons does a great general explanation.
But, in my opinion, if you run counters, the deck becomes less of Death and Taxes and more of Death and Tempo. You essentially end up playing a UW Geist list that may have vial and probably arbiter, but honestly, you end up altering the deck so much, I'm not really sure you'd even need a lot of the core parts of the deck. If you're taking out thalia, spells start looking better and better and creatures, not so much. Which puts vial to the test. Remand is of course great as he mentioned and spells like vapor snag start looking really good. And if you have a high enough spell count, then maybe delver...at the extreme, this is an entirely different deck. It is possible to remove Thalia and still have a high creature density and so vial, but I'm not a big fan of it.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
After a brief flirtation with an all-in aggro deck, I've discovered I simply don't have enough of a #YOLO mindset to just go for broke all the time. I lost way too many games due to not putting on enough pressure because I was afraid to tap out and not leave Brave the Elements up. I need something with more tricksy play to it, so I think I'm coming back to DnT.
It seems like mono-White is out of style nowadays, but does anyone have any thoughts on mono-White? I'm thinking about running something like the below, but I don't know if it makes sense in the current metagame:
Has anyone running WB considered Lifebane Zombie as a sideboard card against Abzan?
In general, Aether vial is weaker against the deck due to Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. You can't reliably cast Lifebane because of double black, and Intimidate is also also never relevant (I think Goyf and Lingering Souls are the only common threats it gets through). Also, Abzan normally has little reason to not just cast all their creatures against you, meaning you could whiff fairly easily.
If you really want a sideboard card against Abzan, I'd be more inclined to suggest a hard removal spell like Dismember or Murderous Cut than Lifebane, because they can also help in other matchups (Twin, Affinity, etc).
Unrelated: I've found a new love for Kitchen Finks. The card is excellent in so many matchups, trades with a good amount of non Rhino/Tasigur creatures, and is good against Liliana, and lifegain gives us a better G1 against aggro decks. Would highly recommend it to anyone needing a 3-drop.
Has anyone running WB considered Lifebane Zombie as a sideboard card against Abzan?
In general, Aether vial is weaker against the deck due to Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. You can't reliably cast Lifebane because of double black, and Intimidate is also also never relevant (I think Goyf and Lingering Souls are the only common threats it gets through). Also, Abzan normally has little reason to not just cast all their creatures against you, meaning you could whiff fairly easily.
If you really want a sideboard card against Abzan, I'd be more inclined to suggest a hard removal spell like Dismember or Murderous Cut than Lifebane, because they can also help in other matchups (Twin, Affinity, etc).
For the most part, getting a double off-color in D&T is a function of your manabase. If you built a list with a bunch of Godless Shrines and Fetid Heaths, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
I think intimidate is pretty relevant. Evasion is definitely worth having in your deck.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I can't help but feel intrigued by this list. Battle Brawler was one of my favorite cards from Draft and Zealous Persecution is one of my favorites from my Legacy deck. Everything in that list makes sense to me except for Isolated Chapel as opposed to Caves of Koilos. The sideboard is a real ball buster for what we run so few of -- noncreature spells -- which really stands out to me as it's great sb tech for my meta. Having been really bored of my mono-white while also feeling something is amiss, I'm going to give it a try as soon as I get myself copies of King of Oreos. I might change some things but no more than a few cards mb & sb. Thanks for posting it!
2 Judge's Familiar
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Restoration Angel
4 Æther Vial
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Enchantments (2)
2 Ephara, God of the Polis
Instants (4)
4 Path to Exile
Lands (23)
2 Moorland Haunt
2 Vault of the Archangel
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
Like most of my builds, the manabase is pretty greedy.
Here are some cards that I wanted to use, but couldn't find room for:
1 CMC:
Dryad Militant
2 CMC:
Dark Confidant
Meddling Mage
Pack Rat
Phantasmal Image
Sygg, River Cutthroat
3 CMC:
Aven Mindcensor
Athreos, God of Passage
Blade Splicer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Fulminator Mage
Ghostly Prison
Mirran Crusader
4 CMC:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Unfortunately, the Commander cards aren't legal in Modern, so Hallowed Spiritkeeper won't be seeing play in this deck unless it's reprinted in a Standard-legal set.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I like Junk Taxes.
I think your curve is a little too high. You have 7 4-drops. I realize that Siege Rhino is a great card for this deck, but you don't want two in your opening hand.
I'm sure that it depends on the matchup, but I'm not sure how powerful Scavenging Ooze is in the mainboard. It stops Storm, and it shrinks Tarmogoyf, but I'd prefer that slot be Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader, or Brimaz. If you'll notice, you don't have many 3-drops, which is strange, because that's what you're trying to curve into if BoP is your T1 play. (If you have a hand with both BoP and Æther Vial, I imagine that you lead with Æther Vial, so that you can play a 4 CMC card on T3.)
Consider 1-2 copies of Eternal Witness. That card is really good in Junk Taxes.
I also think you have too many shocklands. Yes, you need to get the mana consistent, but this manabase is dealing you too much damage. My manabases are pretty greedy, but check the Esper list that I posted for what I think your mana should look like.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
- G1 I did not win any grindy matchups. I only won if I messed with their mana. This might be a function of my list, which is light on top-end. Still, they have so many 4/5s that idk what's to be done in the long game.
- Blinking Blade Splicers to stall the ground seemed risky because they can interrupt the blink or maelstrom pulse the tokens. It's dangerous to gang block against path and decay as well.
- I'm not sure if Thalia is good. They have many creatures, but they always kept in removal. Judge's familiar was trash.
- Jotun grunt was alright. It got sniped by discard and removal, which might be a hint.
- I boarded those cards out for Celestial Purge, Hibernation, Fiend Hunter, and Ephara. I'm not sure that Ephara is the way to go here but I'm going to keep testing I think. Celestial Purge was an all-star. Hibernation was not good, although neither build had Hierarchs.
So nothing revelatory or conclusive, but I thought I'd share. We need a good plan against this matchup if we're going to survive in this Rhino world.
Would you mind sharing your list?
3x Aven Mindcensor
1x Ephara, God of the Polis
1x Dismember
4x Blade Splicer
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
2x Icatian Javelineers
2x Judge's Familiar
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Path to Exile
1x Restoration Angel
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
6x Plains
2x Mutavault
4x Seachrome Coast
3x Tectonic Edge
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Flooded Strand
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Disenchant
1x Celestial Purge
1x Ephara, God of the Polis
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Judge's Familiar
1x Pithing Needle
1x Mark of Asylum
2x Stony Silence
2x Hibernation
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Spellskite
I think that W/U lists want to run stuff like Geist of Saint Traft and Vendilion Clique, the first because it makes their spot removal useless and puts a lot of pressure on them when backed by Eiganjo Castle, and the second because it takes away their heavy hitters from hand(I suppose you mean Tarmogoyf, Siege Rhino and Tasigur, the Golden Fang) which makes our spot removal way better. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is actually pretty good to keep them behind a turn for stuff like Liliana of the Veil and Maelstrom Pulse. I'd say our main plan should be keeping them from stabilizing their mana base with the usual suspects before they can settle down with a Rhino and beat us to death. Besides all that, even though Rest in Peace is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay, it hoses their Tarmos, Tasigurs and Lingering Souls badly if it manages to stick around, and is somewhat harder to remove than the Grunt, and Engineered Explosives can take care of any Spirits in play. Lastly, I think maybe Meddling Mage out of the board can give us a couple of turns to find some answers, so it could be worth checking out too. I could be completely wrong, but that's my take on the matchup - I probably need more testing to be completely sure.
If we were to run counters (either main or side), Which one / how many / why?
Thanks for sharing! I really like the idea of tricolor D&T. It seems fun.
Some thoughts on your build:
I'm not sure why you included thorn of amethyst. I think that slot in pretty much any D&T variant could be something that does more.
I'm not sure you want 2 pontiff main board in this meta. Maybe move one to the side?
With Vendilion, it's going to be tricky playing it without a vial. Especially because you're tricolor. It's a great card, but it's especially good against decks combo/ control. Against agro, it's decent, but you might not need it. I might consider cutting it entirely, or maybe at least moving one to the side.
Sygg is really interesting, but it may not be right here. Mana will be a little easier to reach than with venilion, but maybe not at 2. You also you want more of a focus on 3cmc stuff.
I think you need blade splicer. Mindcensor is handy as well, but less so. Perhaps -2 thorn, -1 pontiff, -1 vendilion, +3 blade splicer, +1 mindcensor? I also might personally prefer -1 Ephara +1 resto just to abuse CiP (such as tidehollow), but it works just fine as is.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
The answer to this question depends on:
1) Whether or not Thalia is in the list
2) Whether or not the list is built with Tempo elements (AKA, running GoST)
The best counterspells, imho, are:
1) Remand. Played correctly, this basically becomes a Time Walk, which is a pretty big deal if you're swinging for 6 with GoST.
2) Mana Tithe. Never run more than one copy, and always board it out after your opponent sees it. This trick tends to work once, and sometimes you can make your opponent play around a playset that isn't there.
3) Mana Leak. It hits everything, and paying 3 can become difficult if we're blowing up our opponents' lands.
Honorable mentions:
1) Spell Pierce. It's hard to argue with the efficiency of this card, but Modern has many more creatures than Legacy does. Against a deck that's both noncreature-spell heavy and not running Thoughtseize, this can be really annoying to have to play around.
2) Spell Snare. This is incredibly narrow, but surprisingly useful. It hits a lot of cards that we don't want see, including Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, and Scavenging Ooze.
3) Rebuff the Wicked. It's a hard counter for targeted removal that can be run in mono-white. Sure, it's a 1-for-1 trade and it doesn't hit targeted abilities, but most counterspells are like that anyway. Against the right decks, this can be a pretty efficient counterspell that no one ever sees coming.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
To be clear, I think my Esper build is lacking a certain synergy that I like to see in D&T decks. However, it's been a while since I put together an Esper list, and I'm pretty sure this is in the ballpark of being playable.
Depending on the matchup, Thorn of Amethyst can be very underwhelming. It's essentially a few extra copies of Thalia, except instead of it being able to swing, you can drop it concurrently with Thalia for a compounded effect.
Here is what's going on: Esper colors push control and tempo elements. I realize D&T is generally regarded as a control deck, but WB and WU D&T are definitely more controlling than WR and WG. My goal for this build was to make sure that our opponents can't play spells, and that's done through some combination of Thalia, Thorn, Tidehollow, and Vendilion Clique. I don't think this is as effective as I want it to be, but it's not too far off. The problem with Meddling Mage is that, in order to be the most effective, it must follow at least one of the aforementioned cards.
So to speak to your point, I'm really putting pressure on noncreature decks by pushing the taxing elements. Good luck dropping that LotV, especially if I can potentially drop both a Thalia and a Thorn.
Unfortunately, I can't really tune a deck based on a meta, because around me, there is no meta. You might be right though, I'm not sure how they perform in a vacuum. If I took them out for other things, they would definitely be in the board.
My manabase is pretty greedy, but I potentially have 11 blue sources (including the fetchlands). I'm sure there will be games when I can't hit Vendilion on the curve, but you might be surprised. By turn 3 on the play, the odds that I've seen at least one blue source are 86%. Again, I need two in order to be able to cast Vendilion, but without actually crunching the numbers, I think I'm looking at a 65-70% chance that I can curve into a Clique.
Clique is a card that helps me minimize threats that I can't see. I could move one to the board (and maybe I should, because it's legendary), but I'd prefer to see two copies than see zero.
Sygg is interesting, especially with Flickerwisp and Clique. I just think that it's too vulnerable to everything, and it can't easily swing. I'd rather run Dark Confidant for a consistent draw package (and of course, I'm not running that either).
Mindcensor is a better fit for this deck than Blade Splicer. As a color identity, Esper isn't aggressive; Esper is control. Blade Splicer is very useful, but it's not pushing the control elements of my game plan.
I did think about Blade Splicer, but I think this deck has a hard time dealing with Tarmogoyf, and I'd almost rather run Mirran Crusader.
Thanks for your feedback. Whenever I have a chance, I'll try to take another look at this list and make it less rough around the edges.
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Legacy
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UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Charons does a great general explanation.
But, in my opinion, if you run counters, the deck becomes less of Death and Taxes and more of Death and Tempo. You essentially end up playing a UW Geist list that may have vial and probably arbiter, but honestly, you end up altering the deck so much, I'm not really sure you'd even need a lot of the core parts of the deck. If you're taking out thalia, spells start looking better and better and creatures, not so much. Which puts vial to the test. Remand is of course great as he mentioned and spells like vapor snag start looking really good. And if you have a high enough spell count, then maybe delver...at the extreme, this is an entirely different deck. It is possible to remove Thalia and still have a high creature density and so vial, but I'm not a big fan of it.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
It seems like mono-White is out of style nowadays, but does anyone have any thoughts on mono-White? I'm thinking about running something like the below, but I don't know if it makes sense in the current metagame:
13 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
Spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Blade Splicer
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Restoration Angel
2 Mirran Crusader
13 Aggro/Combo Hate?
In general, Aether vial is weaker against the deck due to Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. You can't reliably cast Lifebane because of double black, and Intimidate is also also never relevant (I think Goyf and Lingering Souls are the only common threats it gets through). Also, Abzan normally has little reason to not just cast all their creatures against you, meaning you could whiff fairly easily.
If you really want a sideboard card against Abzan, I'd be more inclined to suggest a hard removal spell like Dismember or Murderous Cut than Lifebane, because they can also help in other matchups (Twin, Affinity, etc).
Unrelated: I've found a new love for Kitchen Finks. The card is excellent in so many matchups, trades with a good amount of non Rhino/Tasigur creatures, and is good against Liliana, and lifegain gives us a better G1 against aggro decks. Would highly recommend it to anyone needing a 3-drop.
For the most part, getting a double off-color in D&T is a function of your manabase. If you built a list with a bunch of Godless Shrines and Fetid Heaths, I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
I think intimidate is pretty relevant. Evasion is definitely worth having in your deck.
The big reasons to play Lifebane Zombie are Siege Rhino and Wilt-Leaf Liege, both of which come down a turn after Lifebane Zombie.
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Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I can't help but feel intrigued by this list. Battle Brawler was one of my favorite cards from Draft and Zealous Persecution is one of my favorites from my Legacy deck. Everything in that list makes sense to me except for Isolated Chapel as opposed to Caves of Koilos. The sideboard is a real ball buster for what we run so few of -- noncreature spells -- which really stands out to me as it's great sb tech for my meta. Having been really bored of my mono-white while also feeling something is amiss, I'm going to give it a try as soon as I get myself copies of King of Oreos. I might change some things but no more than a few cards mb & sb. Thanks for posting it!
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth