How much success have you guys found with your big mana hate? I'm still fairly new to the deck and learning some of it's intricacies but one of the sticking points I've been having when constructing my sideboard is how much I should bother with fighting some of the big mana decks and what tools are best.
Currently unsure on whether Molten Rain is the correct choice. I don't have Fulminators right now but I do have Ceremonious Rejection and Blood Moon available to me. But then I'm not even sure if having 3 slots dedicated to tron variants and a few others is a good plan. Rejection also can catch eldrazi (sometimes) and works against affinity but has little use outside of those. Blood Moon is arguably more powerful against those decks and can work against other 3 color decks as well but requires setup... which isn't always perfectly feasible. Molten Rain I like because racing big mana decks feels right so the 2 points of damage is relevant but sometimes the cost is restrictive and it's mostly just a delay tactic rather than a blowout. Then of course, I'm still not sure 3 slots should even be dedicated to these.
So what's been working for you guys best? I'm sticking with Molten Rain temporarily I think but I would like to hear from someone more experienced.
Ceremonious Rejection is probably the best card we have against Eldrazi (and useful against normal Tron too) in my opinion. Land Destruction spells will give you a few or even only a single extra turn so you should either look at maximum impact cards like Blood Moon/Crumble to Dust or "hate" cards that go along with our overall game plan (cheap interaction + clock). This includes cards like Countersqual, Thoughtseize (both are obviously good against other decks too) and Ceremonious Rejection which is extremely good against Eldrazi Tron because they usually don't run many copies of Cavern.
I've tried both Molten Rain and Crumble to Dust against Eldrazi Tron, and I honestly think they're traps. The CMC for both is quite high, and I thought it would be amazing to recast Molten Rain with a Snapcaster, but it's extremely resource intensive and also a huge tempo loss. I went for 4 Rejection instead. Cheaper, with the same benefits in terms of Snapcaster/Delver synergy.
How is Ceremonious Rejection been doing for you in the sideboard? I can see it being key in some matchups such as Affinity and Tron builds. Is it useful against another decks? I've thought running Rakdos Charm because it is very versatile in key situations. I might trade out the Ravenous Trap for it, Dredge hasn't been too popular as of now. Here is my sideboard as of now.
I used to run 2 Blood Moons in sideboard against Tron a lot of the time and Jund, traded them out for Harsh Mentor and Liliana, the Last Hope. Any ideas for changes in my sideboard?
Rejection is amazing against Eldrazi Tron.
Rakdos Charm is great against graveyard decks. Nobody expects that card being played.
About land hate, I agree with Jonny : " Land Destruction spells will give you a few or even only a single extra turn so you should either look at maximum impact cards like Blood Moon/Crumble to Dust or "hate" cards that go along with our overall game plan (cheap interaction + clock). " I'm currently testing Crumble to Dust because I find one extra mana is better than Fulminator Mage + Surgical.
Rakdos Charm is great against graveyard decks. Nobody expects that card being played.
About land hate, I agree with Jonny : " Land Destruction spells will give you a few or even only a single extra turn so you should either look at maximum impact cards like Blood Moon/Crumble to Dust or "hate" cards that go along with our overall game plan (cheap interaction + clock). " I'm currently testing Crumble to Dust because I find one extra mana is better than Fulminator Mage + Surgical.
I agree in that Crumble to Dust is better even though it cost one extra mana to cast, but can have better results in the long run. At FNM this Friday, I'm gonna make an effort to play Grixis Delver instead of Infect since Infect didn't really do well with me yesterday.
So far, unfortunately, the deck is more fun than good. It's fun because I love hand disruption. Mostly played against control decks today, which discard isn't superb.
Maybe Xaricore has a point. Maybe the more you put discard, the more it becomes a worse Grixis Death's Shadow deck. Will continue testing. One thing is for sure, I want 1-2 Thoughtseize in the 75. It's good against mana decks and combo.
So far, unfortunately, the deck is more fun than good. It's fun because I love hand disruption. Mostly played against control decks today, which discard isn't superb.
Maybe Xaricore has a point. Maybe the more you put discard, the more it becomes a worse Grixis Death's Shadow deck. Will continue testing. One thing is for sure, I want 1-2 Thoughtseize in the 75. It's good against mana decks and combo.
I've been thinking about adding in some hand hate spells like some Inquisition of Kozilek to the mainboard. I do like your idea, I think I will follow in your idea.
Played a couple of games on Cockatrice today, tweak a little bit the list with 2/2 IoK/TS.
Lost RG Valakut 1-2: Both games that I lost, I was one turn away before killing him. Both games he was at 1-3 life and I had lethal next turn. Thoughtseize and Countersquall/Negate did a lot of work.
Won GW Tron 2-1. Thoughtseize was amazing here.
Tied UW Control 1-1. Cockatrice's server went down on G3, which I believe I had control of the game.
Notes:
- Note that all wins were with Young Pyromancer on board. In fact, all my wins lately is because of YP. It makes sense, because I play 4 copies of YP. I truly believe that going 3-4 Pyro helps a lot putting pressure against the matchups that you need to be the aggressor.
- Spell Snare seems very weak where I currently play. So I decided to swap them + Electrolyze for IoK and TS. Reason for taking out Spell Snare is also because I feel somewhat weird playing Snare + IoK.
- So far I'm a lot more impressed with TS than IoK. Mostly because I mostly played against big mana decks.
- The decklist on my last post, I didn't how I shaved two hard removals. I always prefered playing more of a "Blue Jund" style.
- If I had to change something in the deck, I think I'd want to switch 2 IoK for 2 Snares.
// Grixis Delver
// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
Firstly, I'd like to thank you guys for the advice on big mana hate. Switched to 3 rejection in the board and found it more successful than the molten rains I was running before.
Secondly, I'd like to also advocate Young Pyromancer. I'm not playing the full 4 like deathstroke is but I switched to 3 Pyros from two lately and I've been enjoying it before. Fair decks have to deal with the tokens leftover if they remove it and left unchecked this dude runs away with games (especially in multiples). I know this is hardly new information but I've very much been enjoying the success with him. My meta has quite a large portion by comparison of URx decks and even in matchups where he just dies immediately it feels nice getting just one or two tokens off with him.
What's the general consensus on Remand currently? I understand that this deck generally can't play tempo all the time so it's often better used as a mana leak, or removal spell or some other hard answer but a couple of the lists I've seen on mtggoldfish (which seem to have been popping up a bit more) have gone to running two copies of the card again. I mean it seems like a pretty hit or miss card depending on the matchup so I'm really not sure what to think
3 Young Pyromancers is fine. I play a full playset because I find it easier testing cards when you play four copies of the card you're testing. Playset of Young Pyromancer is working so far. It does happen (rarely though), against the grindy matchups, I top deck too much YPs, which makes me lose the game.
Remand, you pretty much summed up why I don't like the card.
For the others, here is my updated list, beat 3 of our worst matchups today with this list:
Eldrazi Tron 2-1 (Thoughtseize put a LOT of work)
RG Scapeshift 2-1
GB Tron 2-1 (Crumble for the win)
I love Logic Knot as a card and it totally slipped my mind that the card would be more effective without as many delve creatures eating away the graveyard. And while I totally advocate Deprive as a one of (maybe 2) in the main board, how does Pyro help with that plan? Deprive asks to bounce a land, not a permanent...
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
I feel like if we are going the 4 YP route (just like Deathstroke did) we should look at Logic Knot and Deprive as possible counters. With 4 Thought Scour and only 2 Tasigur, running a number of Logic Knots should go without any problems. Deprive on the other hand basically becomes counterspell with a YP out as you can "pay" for it with a token and immediately get a new one of the cast trigger.
Be aware that cutting Delve creatures generally makes the big mana matchups worse because the YP clock can't kill as reliably as a quick Tasigur. I'm definitely going to try it out though, I haven't sleeved up mys YP's in a long time
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Modern UR Storm URB Grixis Delver W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
I feel like if we are going the 4 YP route (just like Deathstroke did) we should look at Logic Knot and Deprive as possible counters. With 4 Thought Scour and only 2 Tasigur, running a number of Logic Knots should go without any problems. Deprive on the other hand basically becomes counterspell with a YP out as you can "pay" for it with a token and immediately get a new one of the cast trigger.
Deprive is a card I always wanted to try. May be worth the shot. Also, I just realized that my current list (if I remember correctly) is somewhat similar to your build, Jonny. It was unintentional and I think the main difference is you play different counterspells, but we both decided to go with 3-4 YP and 2 main Thoughtseize. Glad it works for both of us, at least for me so far with my limited testing.
Be aware that cutting Delve creatures generally makes the big mana matchups worse because the YP clock can't kill as reliably as a quick Tasigur.
I highly disagree on this. The main reason I play 4 YPs is because I want to beat the big mana matchups. Tasigur isn't always going to land on turn 2. I wanted to consistently have pressure on turn 2. I found that turn 2 YP + counterspells was far better than turn 2 Tasigur.
I love Logic Knot as a card and it totally slipped my mind that the card would be more effective without as many delve creatures eating away the graveyard. And while I totally advocate Deprive as a one of (maybe 2) in the main board, how does Pyro help with that plan? Deprive asks to bounce a land, not a permanent...
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
I really like running a one of Deprive mainboard in Grixis Delver. People don't expect it at all.
I feel like if we are going the 4 YP route (just like Deathstroke did) we should look at Logic Knot and Deprive as possible counters. With 4 Thought Scour and only 2 Tasigur, running a number of Logic Knots should go without any problems. Deprive on the other hand basically becomes counterspell with a YP out as you can "pay" for it with a token and immediately get a new one of the cast trigger.
Be aware that cutting Delve creatures generally makes the big mana matchups worse because the YP clock can't kill as reliably as a quick Tasigur. I'm definitely going to try it out though, I haven't sleeved up mys YP's in a long time
Familiar's Ruse is an interesting choice as a counter spell in our deck. A bit risky most of the time because of big mana cost delve creatures.
I haven't used Young Pyromancer in quite a while honestly. I took it out for Vendilion Clique as an option. It has been doing good most of the time but I do wanna try new stuff, possibly Bone Picker.
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
The new Burn list is harder than the old burn where they played Wild Nacatl, because Boros Burn has more spells than Naya Burn. Usually, Burn is a matchup that I just accept that it's a bad one. I usually rely on my counterspells and hope for the best. Luckily for me, there is not a ton of Burn, where I play.
I went to play at FNM tonight, my decklist is the same.
RESULT : 2-1-0
ROUND 1: Bant Amulet brew // 2-0. Thoughtseize was awesome here. My opponent told me that if it wasn't for Thoughtseize both games, he would've a better chance to beat me.
ROUND 2: Eldrazi Tron // 0-2.
ROUND 3: Affinity // 2-1, lost G1.
All wins were because of Elemental tokens once again.
I think Kommand is a find card to run even without the snaps... honestly the deck is gonna be much worse without the snaps so I would focus on them asap. Kolaghan's Command however is a great card in grindy matchups... bring back a Tasigur and kill and opposing snapcaster, or draw step discard/shock them when they're out of cards. Lots of cute plays to make with it even without snappy. I don't know how often I'd wanna bring back a Delver unless I could set it up to flip immediately. Delver loses lots of value as the game goes on.
I'd say Collective Brutality is a great card to get but maybe not quite as good. It is however, probably the single best card we have against burn especially and does well against other aggro decks where multiple modes are relevant. But I'm not sold on it being main-deckable in the way Kommand is.
Separate note: I love switching up my flex slot(s) and I think I'll be giving Logic Knot a try this time. I'm down to just the 3 Tasigur as my delve cards so I think it's fine, and I imagine it as just counterspell most times. I'm not sure it would be better than Deprive, but it seems to fit my build, and I like the card
*Quick edit: I like having at least one card in the side dedicated for grindy matchups (lots of URx in my meta). Lately I've been using Painful Truths but a lot of the other grixis players at my LGS have Rise // Fall. Never played that card personally... how has your guys' performance been with either of those?
Hey guys, I top 4'd last night and made top 16 at a 60 person PPTQ with Grixis Pyro Delver and I thought I'd come in and show you guys what I've been brewing. This is definitely more of a tempo build than anything, but it is incredibly resilient. I held off on reporting this since a single result does not make a trend, but I've got two solid showings against a wide array of decks and I'm doing fairly well.
Young Pyromancer is an absolute house and I'm only really unhappy to see her when I'm hellbent late game. Even then, with the amount of 'draw a card' effects this deck has stapled onto it, restarting the value train is not something that is super hard to do.
Notable inclusions:
Shadow of Doubt maindeck - I play against lots of two-three color decks in my meta and helps me against the titanshift matchup. I don't think I'd want it as more than a 1-of, but it catches everyone off guard and it has won me games by responding to a fetch with it after a t1 bolt/push on a mana dork. Being able to make someone go from a 3 mana by t2 hand to a 1 mana on t3 at a net -1 card? It's so back breaking, bluntly put.
Remand - This card is actively terrible against burn and GDS. But the ability to just buy some time against E-tron, Combo, and Rock-type decks is invaluable. I won't win a top deck war, so making my opponent play off tempo is the best that I can do. I have also used to at EoT to remand my own bolt with a Pyromancer on the field for 3 Tokens at net -1 card.
I feel I need a little bit more tweaking with my SB in preparation for SCG Louisville. What are you guys thinking?
Your list is very similar to mine except the Remands, Shadow of Doubt and Deprive. I'm trying Thoughtseize at that slot instead.
Since we play fairly the same list, and having some success with it, I think it's pretty safe to say that four Young Pyromancers is something that people should try.
I don't like Remand. With all the cheap spells running around this meta, I don't it's good. Else, the list is sweet and I'm glad that someone else is liking four YPs.
I have been having a lot of success with this list on MTGO. In my last 5 run's through Competitive League's I have finished 4-1 4 times and then had one run end up 2-3.
Young Pyromancer - Go wide strategies and cards like Young Pyromancer are so difficult to deal with for many decks. Grixis Death's Shadow struggles mightily against this guy, and the clock he can put on decks with out 29 Instant/Sorceries is a beating. He also covers an area for this deck that it is inherently weak to, Planeswalkers.
Remand over Mana Leak, Deprive, and Logic Knot - Our deck is a tempo deck, and being able to slow down an opponent while allowing us to stay even in cards is exactly what this deck needs. Snapcaster Mage, flashing back a Remand feels so great and allows us to dig deeper for an answer to a problem, or allows us to get that much closer to closing out the game against many decks we are trying to race. Let's not forget remanding a delve threat
Murderous Cut - This card has been great for me as a 1-of. Considering I only run 18 mana (which I will cover later) and only 3 delve threats, this card reads "Pay 1 Black, destroy a creature". I would recommend running this card over a 3rd terminate if you were to cut anything in this list (likely for a 19th land). Considering I am running only 2 fatal Push's, this is also a clean answer to Master of Waves.
Dreadbore - One of the most difficult problems of this deck, as mentioned above, is planeswalkers. This one-of is rarely a bad draw and being able to snipe out a problematic planeswalker is very meaningful against a few decks in the meta. Again, along with 1 terminite, I could see this being a 4th Remand or another land.
Mana Base - 18 Lands? Yes. With only Three 3-drops and 11 cantrips, this deck can manage with 18 lands. I am likely to bump up to 19 lands if I am losing games because of mana, but so far that hasn't been a big issue.
Side Board:
Disdainful Stroke - What a noob! Not! Tron and RG Valakut have been our most difficult matches in the past, and bring in Disdainful Stroke has been nothing but amazing against these decks, specifically RG Valakut. It used to be Countersquall, but that does not stop a Prime Time. Terminate hits PrimeTime after the damage has already been done, and I hate trying to attack a mana base as it is difficult at instant speed, and honestly, attacking a mana base is simply a speed bump. I have loved this card, but playing 3 may be the right number.
Grave hate - I try and race decks that utilize the graveyard, but the spell bombs are excellent because they are cheap and replace themselves.
I am happy that people are still playing this deck and taking it in their own way. Yes, DeathShadow is great, but often times a flipped delver can "get there" against them in a way that Death Shadow can't.
Hey, I know this is probably not a place to discuss budget brews, but I feel like it would be better asked here...
Right now, I'm not running Snapcaster Mages (eventually will, of course), and I was wondering how good Kolaghan's Command is without them? I'm already rnning one, but I'm debating whether a second one will be good right now, or if I should get another Collective Brutality or something else instead? Or is it actually a viable play to revive an Angler or a Delver?
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't play this deck without Snapcaster. He is just so good and allows you to get back in games you otherwise shouldn't have, allows you to close out games, and anything in between.
If you insist on playing this deck without Snapcaster God, I would try something lower to the ground, maybe even a UR Delver type list. 4x Swiftspear, 4x Young Peezy, 4x Delver, 2x Grim Lavamancer and then some extra burn.
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Current list for reference:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Spells
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Dispel
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vandalblast
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
1 Electrolyze
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Molten Rain
1 Painful Truths
Currently unsure on whether Molten Rain is the correct choice. I don't have Fulminators right now but I do have Ceremonious Rejection and Blood Moon available to me. But then I'm not even sure if having 3 slots dedicated to tron variants and a few others is a good plan. Rejection also can catch eldrazi (sometimes) and works against affinity but has little use outside of those. Blood Moon is arguably more powerful against those decks and can work against other 3 color decks as well but requires setup... which isn't always perfectly feasible. Molten Rain I like because racing big mana decks feels right so the 2 points of damage is relevant but sometimes the cost is restrictive and it's mostly just a delay tactic rather than a blowout. Then of course, I'm still not sure 3 slots should even be dedicated to these.
So what's been working for you guys best? I'm sticking with Molten Rain temporarily I think but I would like to hear from someone more experienced.
I'm definitely becoming more a fan of Ceremonious Rejection against meta decks such as Eldrazi and Affinity. I haven't used Crumble to Dust but it can be super good instead of Blood Moon because they always have access to Oblivion Stone and All is Dust.
Rejection is amazing against Eldrazi Tron.
Rakdos Charm is great against graveyard decks. Nobody expects that card being played.
About land hate, I agree with Jonny : " Land Destruction spells will give you a few or even only a single extra turn so you should either look at maximum impact cards like Blood Moon/Crumble to Dust or "hate" cards that go along with our overall game plan (cheap interaction + clock). " I'm currently testing Crumble to Dust because I find one extra mana is better than Fulminator Mage + Surgical.
I agree in that Crumble to Dust is better even though it cost one extra mana to cast, but can have better results in the long run. At FNM this Friday, I'm gonna make an effort to play Grixis Delver instead of Infect since Infect didn't really do well with me yesterday.
So far, unfortunately, the deck is more fun than good. It's fun because I love hand disruption. Mostly played against control decks today, which discard isn't superb.
Maybe Xaricore has a point. Maybe the more you put discard, the more it becomes a worse Grixis Death's Shadow deck. Will continue testing. One thing is for sure, I want 1-2 Thoughtseize in the 75. It's good against mana decks and combo.
// 14 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
// 19 Instant
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Fatal Push
// 19 Land
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Flooded Strand
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Serum Visions
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Terminate
1 Murderous Cut
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
I've been thinking about adding in some hand hate spells like some Inquisition of Kozilek to the mainboard. I do like your idea, I think I will follow in your idea.
Lost RG Valakut 1-2: Both games that I lost, I was one turn away before killing him. Both games he was at 1-3 life and I had lethal next turn. Thoughtseize and Countersquall/Negate did a lot of work.
Won GW Tron 2-1. Thoughtseize was amazing here.
Tied UW Control 1-1. Cockatrice's server went down on G3, which I believe I had control of the game.
Notes:
- Note that all wins were with Young Pyromancer on board. In fact, all my wins lately is because of YP. It makes sense, because I play 4 copies of YP. I truly believe that going 3-4 Pyro helps a lot putting pressure against the matchups that you need to be the aggressor.
- Spell Snare seems very weak where I currently play. So I decided to swap them + Electrolyze for IoK and TS. Reason for taking out Spell Snare is also because I feel somewhat weird playing Snare + IoK.
- So far I'm a lot more impressed with TS than IoK. Mostly because I mostly played against big mana decks.
- The decklist on my last post, I didn't how I shaved two hard removals. I always prefered playing more of a "Blue Jund" style.
- If I had to change something in the deck, I think I'd want to switch 2 IoK for 2 Snares.
// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
// 19 Instant
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous cut
// 19 Land
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Flooded Strand
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
// 8 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
// 15 Sideboard
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
Secondly, I'd like to also advocate Young Pyromancer. I'm not playing the full 4 like deathstroke is but I switched to 3 Pyros from two lately and I've been enjoying it before. Fair decks have to deal with the tokens leftover if they remove it and left unchecked this dude runs away with games (especially in multiples). I know this is hardly new information but I've very much been enjoying the success with him. My meta has quite a large portion by comparison of URx decks and even in matchups where he just dies immediately it feels nice getting just one or two tokens off with him.
What's the general consensus on Remand currently? I understand that this deck generally can't play tempo all the time so it's often better used as a mana leak, or removal spell or some other hard answer but a couple of the lists I've seen on mtggoldfish (which seem to have been popping up a bit more) have gone to running two copies of the card again. I mean it seems like a pretty hit or miss card depending on the matchup so I'm really not sure what to think
Remand, you pretty much summed up why I don't like the card.
For the others, here is my updated list, beat 3 of our worst matchups today with this list:
Eldrazi Tron 2-1 (Thoughtseize put a LOT of work)
RG Scapeshift 2-1
GB Tron 2-1 (Crumble for the win)
Changes: +2 Spell Snare, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, + SB Tweaks
Inquisition wasn't that impressive so decided to shave them.
// 14 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Young Pyromancer
// 19 Instant
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
2 Fatal Push
1 Murderous cut
2 Spell Snare
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
2 Flooded Strand
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
// 8 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dismember
1 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Crumble to Dust
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
Be aware that cutting Delve creatures generally makes the big mana matchups worse because the YP clock can't kill as reliably as a quick Tasigur. I'm definitely going to try it out though, I haven't sleeved up mys YP's in a long time
UR Storm
URB Grixis Delver
W Death and Taxes
Basically anything with Scalding Tarn
Deprive is a card I always wanted to try. May be worth the shot. Also, I just realized that my current list (if I remember correctly) is somewhat similar to your build, Jonny. It was unintentional and I think the main difference is you play different counterspells, but we both decided to go with 3-4 YP and 2 main Thoughtseize. Glad it works for both of us, at least for me so far with my limited testing.
I highly disagree on this. The main reason I play 4 YPs is because I want to beat the big mana matchups. Tasigur isn't always going to land on turn 2. I wanted to consistently have pressure on turn 2. I found that turn 2 YP + counterspells was far better than turn 2 Tasigur.
I really like running a one of Deprive mainboard in Grixis Delver. People don't expect it at all.
Familiar's Ruse is an interesting choice as a counter spell in our deck. A bit risky most of the time because of big mana cost delve creatures.
I haven't used Young Pyromancer in quite a while honestly. I took it out for Vendilion Clique as an option. It has been doing good most of the time but I do wanna try new stuff, possibly Bone Picker.
The new Burn list is harder than the old burn where they played Wild Nacatl, because Boros Burn has more spells than Naya Burn. Usually, Burn is a matchup that I just accept that it's a bad one. I usually rely on my counterspells and hope for the best. Luckily for me, there is not a ton of Burn, where I play.
I went to play at FNM tonight, my decklist is the same.
RESULT : 2-1-0
ROUND 1: Bant Amulet brew // 2-0. Thoughtseize was awesome here. My opponent told me that if it wasn't for Thoughtseize both games, he would've a better chance to beat me.
ROUND 2: Eldrazi Tron // 0-2.
ROUND 3: Affinity // 2-1, lost G1.
All wins were because of Elemental tokens once again.
I'd say Collective Brutality is a great card to get but maybe not quite as good. It is however, probably the single best card we have against burn especially and does well against other aggro decks where multiple modes are relevant. But I'm not sold on it being main-deckable in the way Kommand is.
Separate note: I love switching up my flex slot(s) and I think I'll be giving Logic Knot a try this time. I'm down to just the 3 Tasigur as my delve cards so I think it's fine, and I imagine it as just counterspell most times. I'm not sure it would be better than Deprive, but it seems to fit my build, and I like the card
*Quick edit: I like having at least one card in the side dedicated for grindy matchups (lots of URx in my meta). Lately I've been using Painful Truths but a lot of the other grixis players at my LGS have Rise // Fall. Never played that card personally... how has your guys' performance been with either of those?
Young Pyromancer is an absolute house and I'm only really unhappy to see her when I'm hellbent late game. Even then, with the amount of 'draw a card' effects this deck has stapled onto it, restarting the value train is not something that is super hard to do.
Notable inclusions:
Shadow of Doubt maindeck - I play against lots of two-three color decks in my meta and helps me against the titanshift matchup. I don't think I'd want it as more than a 1-of, but it catches everyone off guard and it has won me games by responding to a fetch with it after a t1 bolt/push on a mana dork. Being able to make someone go from a 3 mana by t2 hand to a 1 mana on t3 at a net -1 card? It's so back breaking, bluntly put.
Remand - This card is actively terrible against burn and GDS. But the ability to just buy some time against E-tron, Combo, and Rock-type decks is invaluable. I won't win a top deck war, so making my opponent play off tempo is the best that I can do. I have also used to at EoT to remand my own bolt with a Pyromancer on the field for 3 Tokens at net -1 card.
I feel I need a little bit more tweaking with my SB in preparation for SCG Louisville. What are you guys thinking?
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
1x Spirebluff Canal
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Control(16)
2x Fatal Push
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Shadow of Doubt
1x Murderous Cut
3x Terminate
2x Spell Snare
1x Deprive
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Remand
3x Thought Scour
4x Serum Visions
4x Snapcaster Mage
Pressure(10)
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Anger of the Gods
3x Blood Moon
1x By Force
1x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
1x Crypt Incursion
1x Dispel
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
Since we play fairly the same list, and having some success with it, I think it's pretty safe to say that four Young Pyromancers is something that people should try.
I don't like Remand. With all the cheap spells running around this meta, I don't it's good. Else, the list is sweet and I'm glad that someone else is liking four YPs.
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Gurmag Angler
2x Young Pyromancer
Instants (26)
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
2x Spell Snare
2x Fatal Push
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Remand
3x Terminate
2x Kolaghan's Command
1x Electrolyze
1x Murderous Cut
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Dreadbore
Mana Base (18)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Spirebluff Canal
1x Blood Crypt
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dispel
4x Disdainful Stroke
2x Countersquall
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Nihil Spellbomb
Notable card choices:
Young Pyromancer - Go wide strategies and cards like Young Pyromancer are so difficult to deal with for many decks. Grixis Death's Shadow struggles mightily against this guy, and the clock he can put on decks with out 29 Instant/Sorceries is a beating. He also covers an area for this deck that it is inherently weak to, Planeswalkers.
Remand over Mana Leak, Deprive, and Logic Knot - Our deck is a tempo deck, and being able to slow down an opponent while allowing us to stay even in cards is exactly what this deck needs. Snapcaster Mage, flashing back a Remand feels so great and allows us to dig deeper for an answer to a problem, or allows us to get that much closer to closing out the game against many decks we are trying to race. Let's not forget remanding a delve threat
Murderous Cut - This card has been great for me as a 1-of. Considering I only run 18 mana (which I will cover later) and only 3 delve threats, this card reads "Pay 1 Black, destroy a creature". I would recommend running this card over a 3rd terminate if you were to cut anything in this list (likely for a 19th land). Considering I am running only 2 fatal Push's, this is also a clean answer to Master of Waves.
Dreadbore - One of the most difficult problems of this deck, as mentioned above, is planeswalkers. This one-of is rarely a bad draw and being able to snipe out a problematic planeswalker is very meaningful against a few decks in the meta. Again, along with 1 terminite, I could see this being a 4th Remand or another land.
Mana Base - 18 Lands? Yes. With only Three 3-drops and 11 cantrips, this deck can manage with 18 lands. I am likely to bump up to 19 lands if I am losing games because of mana, but so far that hasn't been a big issue.
Side Board:
Disdainful Stroke - What a noob! Not! Tron and RG Valakut have been our most difficult matches in the past, and bring in Disdainful Stroke has been nothing but amazing against these decks, specifically RG Valakut. It used to be Countersquall, but that does not stop a Prime Time. Terminate hits PrimeTime after the damage has already been done, and I hate trying to attack a mana base as it is difficult at instant speed, and honestly, attacking a mana base is simply a speed bump. I have loved this card, but playing 3 may be the right number.
Grave hate - I try and race decks that utilize the graveyard, but the spell bombs are excellent because they are cheap and replace themselves.
I am happy that people are still playing this deck and taking it in their own way. Yes, DeathShadow is great, but often times a flipped delver can "get there" against them in a way that Death Shadow can't.
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't play this deck without Snapcaster. He is just so good and allows you to get back in games you otherwise shouldn't have, allows you to close out games, and anything in between.
If you insist on playing this deck without Snapcaster God, I would try something lower to the ground, maybe even a UR Delver type list. 4x Swiftspear, 4x Young Peezy, 4x Delver, 2x Grim Lavamancer and then some extra burn.