The thing I wish this deck had most is an alternate tutorable win condition. Not a CA machine. Not a hate card. An honest to god win condition that synergizes with the deck (ie bridge locks) but doesn't die to stony silence or grave hate. The best I could come up with was the rack but that still kinda sucked and was only viable in the liliana of the veil build. Stuffy Doll was also a relatively lame but technically viable option.
I know I mentioned this before, but what about bitterblossom? You cant tutor for it,it might be a little slow not sure, but the tokens can attack to close out the game while sitting behind bridge. And it doesn't die to graveyard hate or stony silence. But then again I might be biased since I just like playing with the card.
Tutorable artifacts that win the game on their own:
Darksteel Reactor is all I found that checks all your boxes
Decimator Web loses to Stony and Leyline, and the activation cost is real. DOES beat infinite life though.
Batterskull, Noxious Gearhulk, and Wurmcoil Engine can die but are powerful enough to be their own wincon.
Blightsteel Colossus has a problematic CMC
Memnarch is gonna cost too much and also can die
Altar of the Brood has been tried to meh results
Booby Trap is a mega combo with Bauble! lol
Funny enough, Altar and Reactor are trying to do the same thing--just stay alive and let the win come to you! The upside to Altar was that you'd have to be insane to counter it or waste a Wear//Tear on it, so we should be able to stick it as an innocuous wincon against answer-heavy decks. It's just so bad though. You aren't really going to Whir for it ever, cause if you can resolve a Whir, it's not a matchup where you really need Altar.
@Saggarath I wanted to circle back and say yes, I've tried Swan Song and I love it. It hits all the card types we care about, including denying RIP/Stony on the draw, giving additional trouble to Violent Outburst/Gifts Ungiven/Scapeshift/Ad Nauseum, and just trading up in CMC against K-com. I think I can handle the 2/2 Bird token better than the next guy though, cause I still run 4x Cranes which can block it as well as 2 Damnations.
Yeah I dont think the card exists that we want. In dreamland it would be something like a 1 cmc artifact that gains you 1 life on your upkeep and then deals dmg to opp instead if you have metalcraft or hellbent or something.
The actual options are too niche/terrible in the average situation while still being clunky as win cons (web, reactor).
Ashiok is one of the better options I think - not whirable but exile-mill is a very different axis of attack)
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
So AEther Grid is the real answer? Less spicy than I like.
@Reedy26 Alright, might slide the Capsule in for Thursday, I'm stuck with only one Bauble this week So I guess I'll be running that alongside a two-of Darksteel Relic. Might try out @LadenniferJadaniston's suggestion of Swan Song while I'm at it.
edit: my dream is that one day the Conspiracy walkers will become modern legal, would love to have Dack or R/B daretti in Tezz
Grid is it yeah - just not whirrable but otherwise pretty much exactly what I described once you point it out
I notice people play a breeding pool but not a steam vents - rationale? Spire opal prism can all provide the g/r but adding a shock gives you 7 more sources. If you want pool wouldnt you want vents? Esp when you cant count on those artifacts for the splash if youre under stony silence.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've had the same problem with brutality - most notably against spell queller and scavenging ooze but I also could see that it wouldn't be very good versus druid combo either (they often chord or company into the missing piece). I put executioner's capsule in for a while as it could also answer trouble cards like elesh norn and platinum emperion but it was pretty lousy when I wanted to use it on cheaper creatures and often too mana intensive to stop druid in time.
I think the deck can't do everything. If you try jamming answers like liliana/push/echoing truth you start drawing slower and more mediocre hands that don't assemble your combo very reliably. A maindeck cage or needle can solve a lot of these problems while being pretty versatile. The inquisitions also count for something. I would like to try blending the turbo build with lilianas/pushes/truths but I don't know if that will ever work.
Also forced deck names are bad (see RUG delver player who insists on calling it "monkey grow"). This deck might someday be known as "whir" instead of "tezzeret" or "tezzerator" since that is really the card that makes the deck tick. They called it UB Improvise on the SCG list. But "whizzerator" is awful. "Just gonna take a whiz" yeah not what I want to call my deck, thx.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Academy Ruin isn't for Time Sieve, it's to keep your self from decking. To say "I have infinite turns + Thopters" is great, but you actually only have as many thopters as mana on your 40-ish turn before you run out of cards to draw.
Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Academy Ruin isn't for Time Sieve, it's to keep your self from decking. To say "I have infinite turns + Thopters" is great, but you actually only have as many thopters as mana on your 40-ish turn before you run out of cards to draw.
You might be misreading because I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you have thopter-sword-sieve out and 5 mana you can take X turns where X is the number of cards left in your deck. That will usually be enough damage to win the game, but if your opponent has infinite life it won't be. By adding an academy ruins to your list you can now take infinite turns, using the ruins to keep you from decking yourself and deal infinite dmg beating infinite life.
SO yes, the point is to not deck yourself. But the only situation where that really matters is with a time sieve combo online and an opponent at infinite life. There may be some corner case versus a mill deck but those have GQ, surgical, and the ability to just mill away your ruins/sieve so I would not consider that a very relevant situation.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Academy Ruin isn't for Time Sieve, it's to keep your self from decking. To say "I have infinite turns + Thopters" is great, but you actually only have as many thopters as mana on your 40-ish turn before you run out of cards to draw.
You might be misreading because I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you have thopter-sword-sieve out and 5 mana you can take X turns where X is the number of cards left in your deck. That will usually be enough damage to win the game, but if your opponent has infinite life it won't be. By adding an academy ruins to your list you can now take infinite turns, using the ruins to keep you from decking yourself and deal infinite dmg beating infinite life.
SO yes, the point is to not deck yourself. But the only situation where that really matters is with a time sieve combo online and an opponent at infinite life. There may be some corner case versus a mill deck but those have GQ, surgical, and the ability to just mill away your ruins/sieve so I would not consider that a very relevant situation.
I was replying to @saucemaker who has deleted his comment.
Anyway I've gotten a couple modern nights in with my turbo list and it's performing much better. I still need to hammer out the removal issue. There's been a number of games where I top deck a Inquisition and Fatal Push would've given me the game. However I'm not factoring in all the times discarding has saved me as that's a difficult thing to monitor.
The only other thing in my list I dislike is Chalice in the side.
If you have Time Sieve, 5 mana and Thopter/Sword on board, you can draw your whole deck/ eventually make enough thopters to win via combat or Tezz, which people will most likely scoop to. A tenacious opponent might make you play it out to show them, but its very unlikely they have enough instant speed disruption to mess you up multiple times.
For actual infinite turns, you need to have have Time Sieve, Thopter/Sword and Academy Ruins on board plus 9 mana(5 mana for thopters, UB for sieve, U1 to activate academy ruins) you can sac Sieve and 4 Thopters, then put the Sieve on top with Ruins to take infinite turns/life/thopter tokens. You can shortcut from this point on once you show them the loop, you'll make enough thopters eventually to start drawing cards and get to a wincon that fits, be it Tezz, Aether Grid, combat damage or Darksteel Reactor.
Edit: On the topic of alternate wincons that are tutorable and function under Stony(which might be pointless theorycrafting at this point), Etherwrought Page is Whir-able, gets around Leyline effects and is Decay-proof. Psychosis Crawler is another option, but it dies if we go hellbent and opens us up to common removal.
Re: a tutorable win condition that doesn't die to stony or grave hate... what about expedition map and Nephalia Drownyard? Obviously map dies to stony but could potentially get under it. Horribly slow though...
Isn't the best alt wincon packing up anti-hate cards though ? That's the reason of the splash. If one doesn't splash, yes there's a need for an alt wincon, otherwise the splash is there to support Foundry and Tezz.
It seems artifact alt win cons are all very bad, then there are PWs when Bridge stays in the 60.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Regarding the mana cost for infinite turns - it should be trivial to put a zero mana artifact on top rather than sacrifice your time sieve itself. I canot imagine it matters but if for some reason you only had eight mana to work with you can get there (maybe you got stone rained or milled or something). Play zero cmc artifact, pay five for five thopters - sac 4 thopters and the 0cmc to sieve. Pay 1u and tap ruins (3) to put 0cmc on top. that lets you net a thopter per turn to actually deal infinite dmg.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
it's been discussed a lot in the thread. the consensus is it's bad for multiple reasons. 1 not tutorable 2 doesn't help win through stony silence 3 requires an entire turn cycle to end the game in which a single removal spell stops you.
So I had a great weekend at the scg invitational playing this deck!
I went 3/1 day one of the invi losing a close game 3 to a very good death shadow player. Standard was a bit worse but I decided to play the open rather than play day 2.
In the open I went 6/3, losing to Joe losett on Tron, pieter on affinity (the eventual open winner), and omen scape shift. I again decided to play the classic rather than day 2. All 3 loses were very close 3 game matches. 1 mana off infinite turns versus Joe and pieter drew an ancient grudge the turn I stabilized.
The classic I went 6/2 and ended 9th place as the best seated x/2, but there was a clean draw into top 8. I was the only loss for the eventual winner as well. I lost to tron in 3 close games (his only out was to ulamog me and he ripped it). I also kept a land heavy hand versus Jund in the dark and he thought seized my only action and I drew 6 lands in a row. Then when I assembled the combo he ripped an ancient grudge immediately. One turn later and I would have had too many thopters.
Beyond just the playing I had a ton of people comment on how awesome the deck I was playing is. Many people asked for a list and I shared it.
Mtg goldfish apparently commented on their podcast about the deck as well since I placed 9th.
I added a padeem for the classic just to try it out. I never got to test it but I think it is quite good versus death shadow grixis.
They however labeled the deck Ub improvise. I prefer UB Thopters as the deck name and I'll continue to call it that.
I'll likely be selling my standard tickets on modo and buying this to test more. I'll consider getting some gear to stream as Ive noticed the main issue players have is sideboarding decisions and I'm fairly confident in mine.
I know I mentioned this before, but what about bitterblossom? You cant tutor for it,it might be a little slow not sure, but the tokens can attack to close out the game while sitting behind bridge. And it doesn't die to graveyard hate or stony silence. But then again I might be biased since I just like playing with the card.
Darksteel Reactor is all I found that checks all your boxes
Decimator Web loses to Stony and Leyline, and the activation cost is real. DOES beat infinite life though.
Batterskull, Noxious Gearhulk, and Wurmcoil Engine can die but are powerful enough to be their own wincon.
Blightsteel Colossus has a problematic CMC
Memnarch is gonna cost too much and also can die
Altar of the Brood has been tried to meh results
Booby Trap is a mega combo with Bauble! lol
@Saggarath I wanted to circle back and say yes, I've tried Swan Song and I love it. It hits all the card types we care about, including denying RIP/Stony on the draw, giving additional trouble to Violent Outburst/Gifts Ungiven/Scapeshift/Ad Nauseum, and just trading up in CMC against K-com. I think I can handle the 2/2 Bird token better than the next guy though, cause I still run 4x Cranes which can block it as well as 2 Damnations.
The actual options are too niche/terrible in the average situation while still being clunky as win cons (web, reactor).
Ashiok is one of the better options I think - not whirable but exile-mill is a very different axis of attack)
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@Reedy26 Alright, might slide the Capsule in for Thursday, I'm stuck with only one Bauble this week So I guess I'll be running that alongside a two-of Darksteel Relic. Might try out @LadenniferJadaniston's suggestion of Swan Song while I'm at it.
edit: my dream is that one day the Conspiracy walkers will become modern legal, would love to have Dack or R/B daretti in Tezz
I notice people play a breeding pool but not a steam vents - rationale? Spire opal prism can all provide the g/r but adding a shock gives you 7 more sources. If you want pool wouldnt you want vents? Esp when you cant count on those artifacts for the splash if youre under stony silence.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I think the deck can't do everything. If you try jamming answers like liliana/push/echoing truth you start drawing slower and more mediocre hands that don't assemble your combo very reliably. A maindeck cage or needle can solve a lot of these problems while being pretty versatile. The inquisitions also count for something. I would like to try blending the turbo build with lilianas/pushes/truths but I don't know if that will ever work.
Also forced deck names are bad (see RUG delver player who insists on calling it "monkey grow"). This deck might someday be known as "whir" instead of "tezzeret" or "tezzerator" since that is really the card that makes the deck tick. They called it UB Improvise on the SCG list. But "whizzerator" is awful. "Just gonna take a whiz" yeah not what I want to call my deck, thx.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
You might be misreading because I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If you have thopter-sword-sieve out and 5 mana you can take X turns where X is the number of cards left in your deck. That will usually be enough damage to win the game, but if your opponent has infinite life it won't be. By adding an academy ruins to your list you can now take infinite turns, using the ruins to keep you from decking yourself and deal infinite dmg beating infinite life.
SO yes, the point is to not deck yourself. But the only situation where that really matters is with a time sieve combo online and an opponent at infinite life. There may be some corner case versus a mill deck but those have GQ, surgical, and the ability to just mill away your ruins/sieve so I would not consider that a very relevant situation.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I was replying to @saucemaker who has deleted his comment.
Anyway I've gotten a couple modern nights in with my turbo list and it's performing much better. I still need to hammer out the removal issue. There's been a number of games where I top deck a Inquisition and Fatal Push would've given me the game. However I'm not factoring in all the times discarding has saved me as that's a difficult thing to monitor.
The only other thing in my list I dislike is Chalice in the side.
If you have Time Sieve, 5 mana and Thopter/Sword on board, you can draw your whole deck/ eventually make enough thopters to win via combat or Tezz, which people will most likely scoop to. A tenacious opponent might make you play it out to show them, but its very unlikely they have enough instant speed disruption to mess you up multiple times.
For actual infinite turns, you need to have have Time Sieve, Thopter/Sword and Academy Ruins on board plus 9 mana(5 mana for thopters, UB for sieve, U1 to activate academy ruins) you can sac Sieve and 4 Thopters, then put the Sieve on top with Ruins to take infinite turns/life/thopter tokens. You can shortcut from this point on once you show them the loop, you'll make enough thopters eventually to start drawing cards and get to a wincon that fits, be it Tezz, Aether Grid, combat damage or Darksteel Reactor.
Edit: On the topic of alternate wincons that are tutorable and function under Stony(which might be pointless theorycrafting at this point), Etherwrought Page is Whir-able, gets around Leyline effects and is Decay-proof. Psychosis Crawler is another option, but it dies if we go hellbent and opens us up to common removal.
It seems artifact alt win cons are all very bad, then there are PWs when Bridge stays in the 60.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I went 3/1 day one of the invi losing a close game 3 to a very good death shadow player. Standard was a bit worse but I decided to play the open rather than play day 2.
In the open I went 6/3, losing to Joe losett on Tron, pieter on affinity (the eventual open winner), and omen scape shift. I again decided to play the classic rather than day 2. All 3 loses were very close 3 game matches. 1 mana off infinite turns versus Joe and pieter drew an ancient grudge the turn I stabilized.
The classic I went 6/2 and ended 9th place as the best seated x/2, but there was a clean draw into top 8. I was the only loss for the eventual winner as well. I lost to tron in 3 close games (his only out was to ulamog me and he ripped it). I also kept a land heavy hand versus Jund in the dark and he thought seized my only action and I drew 6 lands in a row. Then when I assembled the combo he ripped an ancient grudge immediately. One turn later and I would have had too many thopters.
Beyond just the playing I had a ton of people comment on how awesome the deck I was playing is. Many people asked for a list and I shared it.
Mtg goldfish apparently commented on their podcast about the deck as well since I placed 9th.
I added a padeem for the classic just to try it out. I never got to test it but I think it is quite good versus death shadow grixis.
They however labeled the deck Ub improvise. I prefer UB Thopters as the deck name and I'll continue to call it that.
I'll likely be selling my standard tickets on modo and buying this to test more. I'll consider getting some gear to stream as Ive noticed the main issue players have is sideboarding decisions and I'm fairly confident in mine.
3 sword of the meek
4 whir of invention
3 ensnaring bridge
3 tezzeret agent of bolas
4 Pentad prism
4 Mishras bauble
3 Mox opal
4 serum visions
3 collective brutality
1 time seive
1 grafdiggers cage
1 relic of progenitus
2 welding jar
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 island
1 swamp
2 watery grave
1 breeding pool
4 darkslick shores
1 inventors Fair
3 chalice of the void
2 thought seize
2 herald of anguish
1 damnation
2 Pithing needle
2 abrupt decay
2 Maelstrom pulse
1 Witchbane orb