I finally completed my Tezz deck online and first thing I noticed is how important it is to play fast. I've only lost 1 match because of time but I've gotten under 3 min like 4 times now (10 matches). I hope this is just me being new to MTGO and not a inherent problem of playing this deck online although I haven't had this issue playing limited tournaments online. Props to you MTGO players piloting this beast. For instance, Eldrazi Tron is has always felt like a winnable game, but gotta play VERY tight. However, every match goes close to time and I'm exhausted afterwards when playing online. Probably putting a 2nd needle in main since this deck is so prominent here. Unrelated, Dredge feels like basically a free win, first time I've played against it.
Anyways, I really wanted to hear more about canonist vs. trinisphere and possibly any other SB card that hits the storm matchup but is useful in other bad matchups. Canonist comes down a turn sooner, isn't that strictly better against a fast deck like Storm? Trinisphere seems ok against Death Shadow if the game goes much past turn 3, big if though, has anyone tried it? For what bad matchups is canonist strictly better and vice versa?
For the record, I'm still riding the prism train. The card is more effective in the first 4 turns and in modern the game is typically decided by turn 4. Don't be afraid to prism for 1 counter, and don't be afraid to burn counters when it's meaningful. It's still sac fodder for foundry and improvises. Not very close IMO when compared to talisman, if you've played with both in conjunction with Whir/Herald.
Magpie im running your main but have had decent experience with discard and counter magic.
I run 3 serum visions instead of 4
No push or decay, the five slots are filled with
3 stoic rebuttal and 2 Co. Brutality.
In the side i run 2 nature claim 2 abrupt decay and 1 maelstrom.
I really only want them for stony or rip. The push are uneeded they are redundant with bridge for creature control
Also i find jester cap super valuable in the side.
Vs scapeshift take the valakut
Vs ad naus and storm take the win con.
Vs tron grab o stone or karn or ulamog.
The stoic rebuttal is a 2 drop counter all card that has saved me from a echoing and hurkyl a ton
I love the card as a 2 drop hard counter. It replaces inquisition which is mostly aiming for their hate cards and stoic kinda lets me stop the hate.
Its more useful vs other things like karn or scapeshift, and forces the opponent to play around potential counters effectively slowing the game simetimes.
Mostly it fits my style
My main is
3 opal
4 bauble
2 welding
4 whir
4 pentad prism
3 serum visions
3 stoic rebuttal
2 co. Brutality
1 Eng exp
1 pithing
2 bridge
4 foundry
3 sword
3 tezzeret
Im debating trimming combo pieces because drawing multiple foundry or sword sucks.
Im 9 and 2 on xmage
And 7 and 3 on paper
Gonna play this list tonight
Thanks for the tips! I've got a lot of practicing to do.
Unrelated: found out recently that Leyline of the Meek is pretty terrible for us. Took me way too long to figure out why I wasn't getting my sword back.
We were both on a mulligan to 6 and I couldn't find a bridge. I was able to hold him off with 5/5's from Tezzeret but then He got to Spreading Seas me and get in with Island walk. I was able to buy myself a lot of time by not fetching out islands however.
Spellskite is largely to eat an Echoing Truth and Thoughtseize is to rip out Hurkkyll's Recall or simply slow them down. I trim most of the slower artifacts that don't do very much for action since I need to be more interactive against fair decks.
Game 2 I win with a fast Thopter/Sword and game 3 I turtle behind an Ensnaring Bridge and dome him with Tezzeret.
Saheeli Chord 2-0
Game 1 he had a hand with a Birds of Paradise, Saheeli Rai and lands. I Inquisition the Saheeli Rai into T3 Tezzeret T3 Thopter/Sword. Lights out.
Sideboard: +3 Abrupt Decay +1 Damnation +1 Lost Legacy +2 Thoughtseize +2 Engineered Explosives +1 Grafdiggers Cage
-4 Mishra's Bauble -1 Mox Opal -2 Relic of Progenitus -1 Welding Jar -1 Sword of the Meek -1 Thopter Foundry
My sideboard strategy here is to hedge heavily against the combo and Stony Silence. Ensnaring Bridge should lock up the fair fight on the ground.
Game 2 is long and grindy. It starts by me dismantling his hand and then Grafdigger's Cage shutting off his 2 Chords. I give up winning the game maybe 15 turns sooner to hold on to an Abrupt Decay. He has Thopter tokens from Pia and Kiran Nalaar chipping away at my Tezzeret's while I held on to it but it kept me safe from Stony and the combo. Eventually assembled Thopter/Sword and grinded him out.
Living End 2-0
Turn 1 Relic. Turn 3 Ensnring Bridge. Also had welding jar for his beast within. Assembled Thopter Sword and held on to a Whir of Invention in case I needed the second Welding Jar. Easy win.
Sideboard: +1 Lost Legacy
-1 Pithing Needle
Turn 1 Relic. Turn 3 Ensnaring Bridge. More of the same from game 1. It just took a lot longer to kill because I had to play around a potential Faerie Macabre.
Mono White D&T 2-1
I was not thrilled to play this match. It is absolutely terrible for us. Game 1 he puts on a fast clock while I find nothing but lands Thopter Foundry and Pentad Prisms.
Sideboard: +Everything but Grafdigger's Cage, Ethersworn Cantonist, Pithing Needle
-4 Mishra's Bauble -2 Mox Opal -2 Pentad Prism -2 Relic of Progenitus -1 Sword of the Meek - 1 Thopter Foundry -1 Tezzeret
The sideboard strategy here is to reduce theeffectiveness of Stony Silence while also protecting Ensnaring Bridge from Flickerwisp. I also wanted to hedge against a T2 Thalia which is nearly impossible for me to beat.
Game 2 was EXTREMELY long. Took all but the last 5 minutes of the round. I used all my early artifacts to make blockers with Thopter Foundry until I could hit enough lands to sweep the board with Damnation and then follow it up with Brutality into Ensnaring Bridge. From here I just played protect the Bridge but it took very long to find a win condition since I boarded 3 cards for it out. Eventually Tezzeret ultimate gets there.
Game 3 my opponent was exceedingly frustrated because he couldn't get through my lock. He said "This is stupid and I am not playing against you again" packed up and went home. So we win! 4-0
Going forward I want to cut 1 Pentad Prism for the 4th Mox Opal. But overall I am really happy where my list is at.
Congrats, pal! May I suggest that you also post this report on Reddit/Modernmagic? 4-0 FNM reports are all the rage these days and, maybe you've noticed, the Tezzerator posts that pop up there from time to time seem to have lots of power in terms of attracting new people to the archetype. I think it would be beneficial to us and them to let your progress be known over there as well.
This being said, I notice from your list that you are totally walking away from alternate win conditions. When did you make that move and why, and how does it impact your game? I myself have good experience against white bears decks as they're pretty popular in my local metagame and it's true that these games often devolve into the grindiest. Now don't you think a Herald of Anguish, a Ghirapur Aether Grid or even a Hazoret the Fervent out of the board could have done work, speeding up the clock and giving you another SS-proof axis to fight on?
I finally completed my Tezz deck online and first thing I noticed is how important it is to play fast. I've only lost 1 match because of time but I've gotten under 3 min like 4 times now (10 matches). I hope this is just me being new to MTGO and not a inherent problem of playing this deck online although I haven't had this issue playing limited tournaments online. Props to you MTGO players piloting this beast. For instance, Eldrazi Tron is has always felt like a winnable game, but gotta play VERY tight. However, every match goes close to time and I'm exhausted afterwards when playing online. Probably putting a 2nd needle in main since this deck is so prominent here. Unrelated, Dredge feels like basically a free win, first time I've played against it.
Anyways, I really wanted to hear more about canonist vs. trinisphere and possibly any other SB card that hits the storm matchup but is useful in other bad matchups. Canonist comes down a turn sooner, isn't that strictly better against a fast deck like Storm? Trinisphere seems ok against Death Shadow if the game goes much past turn 3, big if though, has anyone tried it? For what bad matchups is canonist strictly better and vice versa?
For the record, I'm still riding the prism train. The card is more effective in the first 4 turns and in modern the game is typically decided by turn 4. Don't be afraid to prism for 1 counter, and don't be afraid to burn counters when it's meaningful. It's still sac fodder for foundry and improvises. Not very close IMO when compared to talisman, if you've played with both in conjunction with Whir/Herald.
Congrats on completing your online deck. Would love to tune-in and help if you're planning on streaming. Also, if I may ask, how much is the deck worth online? I'm not on MTGO but there's such a lack of Tezz content around which to gather that I'm contemplating the option of jumping online myself.
Lastly, about Storm, we haven't talked too much about overloading on GY hate while it seems a solid plan in theory. Anyone here tested going up to 3-4 Relics on top of Grafdigger's Cage? I'd like to see Storm go off through that -- and unlike Leyline, Relic have all the synergy and also cycle.
So, I've done some thinking. Some of you may be familiar with my 4/3 thoptersword, Sultai, sieve version of the deck. Here it is, as it was last time I took it out:
I was very happy with the MD, but the SB needed a lot of work. Another problem was that since the MD was so tight, it felt hard to SB more than 3 cards a lot of the time.
With this in mind, I've made some adjustments. Please note that, although some of these changes might raise an eyebrow or two, I've thought them through and tested them quite a bit. There are definitely some rough edges, and if I was taking the deck to a big tournament, this is NOT the list I'd run - some elements of this are included for testing presently and are not necessarily what I think is the best to be playing (but I gotta try, for science!). So, here's what I'm playing tonight (4 rounds of modern ahoy), followed by some notes re the specific changes and reasoning.
Changes:
>-1 Watery Grave, +1 Hallowed Fountain. I run no BB cards, and can still fetch for 2nd B on a swamp if I really need to. Fountain allows me to more consistently cast Leyline if I draw it.
>-2 Botanical Sanctum, +2 Spire of Industry. Spire seems very good in the deck. Now that I'm off of Ancient Stirrings, this change feels right. Also note that this change does not reduce the total number of green sources for Decay and Pulse, it only makes the manabase a little more painful and possibly disruptable (e.g. when no artifacts).
>-4 Ancient Stirrings, +4 Serum Visions. I wanted to try visions, as everyone seems to be getting gas out of it, and Stirrings, while very powerful, does require you to do certain things with your mana, that make running Leyline in the side quite a stretch.
Note that through these changes, I'm at the same number of green sources, +3 white sources, still have the effectively the same mana where casting foundry is concerned, and am no more succeptible to blood moon than before. The only drawback is the change from 4 fastlands to 2 with 4 spires; more pain and potential for spire to screw me over, but so far the risk seems very low.
SB:
>-2 Abrupt Decay. 2x Decay MD and 2x Maelstrom Pulse in the side is quite enough GB destruction effects.
>-2 Surgical Extraction. Without Ghost Quarter and Crucible, this card has a lot less gas.
>-1 Quicksilver Fountain. This card just never really did enough for me to like it. Against Eldrazi Tron I feel fine, and sieve is just better. Against GW/GR tron, well, I never really felt like the Quicksilver Fountain was really good enough, even with the crucible/ GQ package.
>-1 Witchbane Orb. This one I may regret and take back, but I feel with x3 Leyline + x3 Chalice, I don't need this. So far it's felt fine, but like I say, I'm watching this closely.
>-1 Ethersworn Canonist. This was really only in to foil Storm, and I'm now on Trinisphere for that, which I like better.
>+3 Chalice of the Void. This card is insane, shores up some of the tougher matchups (especially Death's Shadow) and is good against many decks. Between this and Leyline, I feel fine without Witchbane Orb.
>+3 Leyline of Sanctity. The most Outrageous aspect of my SB. Is 3 too many? Is the card even appropriate at all? Time will tell, but right now from testing, it has felt good as a x3. Card is very castable too.
>+1 Trinisphere. An answer to the developing threat that is Storm. Lucky for me, there aren't many storm players in my local meta, but I do travel to bigger tournaments so want to get experience with the card. Also, it may have applications in other matchups, which I'd like to explore (e.g. Death's Shadow, although I feel I'm plenty well equipped there already).
Moving forward, I'm considering the 4th Mox. T1 mox is usually gg with a reasonable hand with this deck, because you have like t2 tezz or t2 thoptersword, and that's godawful for your opponent.
I'll post my report and notes from this evening's matches when I get home.
While I'm typing, I see people are discussing the merits of the slower, control oriented version of the deck against the turbo packaged versions, and also that some people are discussing whether to run Pentad Prism over other cards. I feel like I have some experience, having played with a very UB control style version to begin, into UB with turbo, into my own sultai 4/3 sieve list, over the last few months. I feel like Radouf could explain this better than I, but I'll chip in my thoughts.
Re control vs turbo, the faster the deck is, the much more powerful it has felt. With the control version, I was just too slow for some of what modern is doing, and even when I stabilised with bridge etc, the topdecks were bad and the control-cards, while good, were often not enough that I still lost games. By making your "Plan-A" to have thoptersword up and running t3 (for sure by t4) with the sieve for t5+ (sometimes as early as t4 though), you fix the topdeck issue a lot and it just feels like power on a different level to what I was doing before, and my winrate reflects this. Thoptersword naturally insulates you against you against a lot of the field (so, it is a good defence), so by going in hard on the combo and having sieve, it's a good offence too. I find g1 is very very good with the deck. I still have the option to bridge and turtle, and I absolutely don't miss the other control elements. Then by having the most brutal, most targeted SB options, g2/3 are increasingly feeling uber as well.
My experience so far leads me to believe that Pentad Prism is still very strong in the deck. If you're looking at the card and seeing a mana fixer, or a card that allows us to whir for 3 on t3, I respectfully submit that you need more reps with the deck - it's a bit like Mishra's Bauble; initially the uses and value of the card aren't super obvious, it's only by playing it for so long that I've gotten a feel for the lines it opens up, the situations it saves me and the games it lets me win. It allows t2 and t3 Tezz, which is imo still our best game against Tron and strong against a lot of the field. It allows me to get t3 thoptersword out with mana for blockers, which is night and day against a lot of the field and happens pretty often. It allows me to evacuate my hand for hasty bridge action, if that's the plan. The Prism is more explosive than alternatives, and I think if you're on a more proactive plan like I am (I aim to be sieving by t5-6) then the prism is great. The way modern looks, explosive > consistency at the moment, or at least that's my gut feel.
Of course, that's just my two cents. I'm evolved into the faster versions of the deck by iterating and testing and playing, and they really do just feel better and win more in my experience. Don't get me wrong, you can have a great time with many versions of this deck, and I'm not sure that I'm right, I just have plenty of experience with the deck over the last two months and imo, you wanna be fast and hard in modern right now.
I totally encourage people to get reps in with talismans and other contenders and share their findings!
Thanks for the fleshed-out thought process, I can totally get behind most of your deck-building decisions. In fact, your MB is just 1-2 cards off the Leyline build I've been testing myself! Please keep us posted.
RE:leyline I've played many many many white decks in modern and I've never once played this card without regretting it. This is a deck building trap I think even silence is a better card(still very bad). One of the things I love about this deck is I have access to the effect in a tutorable fashion so I don't have to flood the deck with copies of a 4cmc do nothing enchantment. On top of that I don't mind getting hit by discard early because they probably are removing a card that's garbage on its own.
Reasons I hate this card:
1. Forces you to mulligan normally keepable hands due to feeling the need to start with this in play.
2. This feels worse to draw a second copy of than petty much any card I've ever played.
3. This is pure card disadvantage in your opener (tied to #4)
4. Literally might do nothing vs a deck. Bring it in vs burn? They drew eidolon and 2 guides and a swift spear (while anecdotal, this has actually happened to me before they bolted themselves for prowess to kill me)
5. Dilutes your plan. 3 to 4 of these means less of your attack plan.
All this being said the shell may help with some of the issues but needing double white on a splash color is miserable as well and warps the mana base so hard. Play 100 side boarded games with the leylines in and record exactly what they did in every game and I feel like you'll agree it's just a trap because it's highs are very high but its lows are very very very low.
In all due respect, some of the arguments you're making are so unfair it's unsettling.
1. Forces you to mulligan normally keepable hands due to feeling the need to start with this in play.
This is not an intrinsic property of the card. Leyline doesn't force you into mulligan'ing. If anything's a problem here, it's the feeling you're telling of. This being said, Ensnaring Bridge also profits from mulligans. And this deck often only needs the right combination of 2-3 cards to get going off in short terms, so there is actually really little opportunity cost to the first mulligan. Leyline just fits in that axis.
2. This feels worse to draw a second copy of than petty much any card I've ever played.
I don't think it's even worth starting to list cards that are worst when you draw a second copy of them, be it in this deck or all Tier 1 decks.
3. This is pure card disadvantage in your opener (tied to #4)
How? This seems hard to take seriously. Card from hand to the battlefield for free = card disadvantage? Pure one at that?
4. Literally might do nothing vs a deck. Bring it in vs burn? They drew eidolon and 2 guides and a swift spear (while anecdotal, this has actually happened to me before they bolted themselves for prowess to kill me)
This has happened to me before too. It's no reason NOT to run the card that shuts half their deck down, come on. By that logic, we shouldn't care to run Ensnaring Bridge as they might just draw Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Spike, Boros Charm.
5. Dilutes your plan. 3 to 4 of these means less of your attack plan.
This is totally agree with.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be a d*ck or come at you personally, but I think you're being way too liberally dismissive of the card on flawed grounds, and being so affirmative in tone might mislead some readers, bad. For the record, I'm not even advocating for Leyline. However I think it's only fair to ask for better intellectual rigor.
Do those of you who run Whirr/bridge over Thirst/control ever lament the loss of counter magic? That's the largest factor of why I went for a control shell. I feel absolutely bare to combo and midrange without counterspells to defend from both instant losses and the inevitable hate cards.
It has particular impact in games where winning via combo is just not where I want to be. Those other angles of attack our decks have become significantly harder to deal with when backed by more control.
Congrats on completing your online deck. Would love to tune-in and help if you're planning on streaming. Also, if I may ask, how much is the deck worth online? I'm not on MTGO but there's such a lack of Tezz content around which to gather that I'm contemplating the option of jumping online myself.
Lastly, about Storm, we haven't talked too much about overloading on GY hate while it seems a solid plan in theory. Anyone here tested going up to 3-4 Relics on top of Grafdigger's Cage? I'd like to see Storm go off through that -- and unlike Leyline, Relic have all the synergy and also cycle.
Never streamed before so I'll try to get that set up as I'm happy to share my results good or bad. If I had to guess, I put close to $200 into the deck between purchasing tickets and trading most of my online collection off. However, I only bought in for the non-turbo version and haven't obtained crucible/EE yet (Turbo probably $4-500 Complete). I'll post my current list later on. I am tracking my results via a spreadsheet. Currently, 3-2, 3-2, 4-1 in Friendlies. 3 of those losses are to Tron (1% of the meta...so unlucky, to quote LSV).
The storm matchup felt really bad and I've been losing to it in paper too. Relic/cage isn't enough (I run 3/1 after board); they can win without Past in Flames. I'm gonna start with canonist first since the smaller CMC appears crucial. Trinisphere does hit KCI too though.
Currently trying to build the deck but no idea what list to use. Atm trying to base it on the one from channel fireball last year but would love some input!
P.s I own Chalices are they any good? Help With storm?
Whir of invention lists are the most popular. Chalice is ok some of us are using em some arent, i find they r only good vs our already good match ups
I have an authoritative tone because I've literally played thousands of post board games with the card since modern came out. I always try it because I feel like the effect is good in a lot of matchups.
It's card disadvantage because unless it blanks at least 1 card in your opponents had (no way to tell) you just start the game with 6 cards because your 7th is a 4 mana do nothing enchantment. It's not proactive or synergistic.
I just looked at decks that place top 8 with this card in them. Almost every single deck was either a prison deck(synergy) or a combo deck that loses to a single discard spell(in those decks they run 4). This card neither has synergy nor are we completely useless after a single thoughtseize.
If it did anything proactive at all I'd be happier to get on board but I can't. The variance is way too swingy I want a card that increases my odds 8-12% consistently in a matchup not a card that either makes it a 100% or has no effect at all.
RE: Leyline. Fair arguments now, thanks for clarifying.
In other news I went out to a Wednesday night magic (non-Leyline list FYI) and finished 3-1, beating UW Control (2-0; Aether Grid FTW), Doran Stompy (2-1; did get T3 25'd in G2), UWR Aggro (2-0) losing only to Burkhart style Grixis Control (0-2) but to my own oversights and on the tiniest margins! Tale worth telling -- G1 after grinding through all the Commands and Squalls, our combo is finally online. With my last Foundry activation - to have a lethal thopter force on board and bring me up to 13 life - on the stack, opponent goes Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Cryptic bounce his Snap; fetches the last mana source from his library and Snap Bolts to 12 me dead! G2 I shred his hand bare, but overlook a single Relic activation which would've delayed his Tasigur a full turn. He's all-in on beatdown with Tasigur, Tar Pit and a blue Gearhulk on the last turn and I get in that spot where my only out is topdecking a Sword or Bridge. I draw land for turn, extend the hand for concession. I flip the top card of library: Sword. EDGES!!!
A problem with this deck is that there are so many possible lines of play, including activated abilities, that hindsight reveals mistakes. It's hard to know what to do all the time or to remember every edge. The fact we play silver bullets makes it even harder. For instance, scrying away a grafdigger's cage on a mull only to see you're facing storm feels awful, but it's really just the acute, swingy nature of a maindeck hate card more than anything. This deck is not easy to pilot.
@racing089: Congrats on your 4-0! I dig hearing people having success with this deck. I was wondering though if G is really the right SB splash. I can't argue with the cards you're using for it though. Do you think it would be better to use W for Anguished Unmaking in place of the green cards though? It's on-color regarding Foundry and Canonist too. I get the 3 life for Anguished Unmaking is not irrelevant, but we are running CB & Foundry to help offset that.
All that being said:
@radouf: Are you on an Esper build right now? If so, would you mind sharing your current list?
@Jedi: you can find the Leylines (Esper) list i was testing a couple of posts back in my post history. However this was strictly online as I'm missing some of the cards IRL. And yesterday my computer just died so I'll be off Esper going forward. Anyways I tend to agree with @Magpie in general and @Grouty in part: Leyline takes much commitment and SB space for a very hit-or-miss return... that's always un-synergistic and not proactive.
Sorry if my posts are what you're referring to raven. I haven't been trying to create a divide here or drive anyone off. I just don't want people to fall for the trap of leyline without very seriously considering the draw backs like I used to. Nice report though and i like the trawler infinite loop but why do you like that over say the 2nd aether grid?
Second question, have you had any problems getting to 5 mana to use time sieve I this build?
Just popping in to say that I've been continuing testing versions of tezz with some version of a saheeli combo. (Either the cat, or altar + liquimetal coating). Results have been all over the place, but it's interesting to note I've stomped valakut with the combo several times (as in turn 3-4 wins), and tron too, while getting my ass handed to me by DS decks way harder than normal with discard ripping apart the combos. Maybe the combo should be the real SB strat vs the big mana decks, as they lack early interraction.
So far all my testing has been with the combo jammed awkwardly in the main, but next up will be dedicating about 7 spots in the board, where I'll swap out foundries and swords for it in matchups where flying 1/1's are obsolete. This will be tough, but the SB is so open with this deck I think I can make it work.
Sideboard something like (UBr with some rainbow lands):
4 saheeli
1 altar of the brood
1 liquimetal coating
1 felidar guardian
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 anger of the gods
2 wear//tear
1 ethersworn canonist
1 extirpate
1 scrap trawler
I could even play a single saheeli main to free a sb slot because she's never a terrible card go have, can win behind a bridge, and can be a lightning rod for removal/attackers. I dunno, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
EDIT: thanks for the links radouf, that was cool to see.
Can you explain the liquid metal coating combo to me because I can't seem to figure it out. I feel really stupid >.<
You tap Liquimetal Coating to make Saheeli Rai an artifact. Then use her -2 to make a copy of her, except she's an artifact. Bury the original Saheeli, use the -2 on the token that was made, and make another copy of the her. Rinse....repeat.
With Altar of the Brood, it sees each copy hit the field and mills them one. You can make infinite copies of Saheeli and mill them out this way.
This may be a question better suited for a judge forum, but since it could potentially affect any of us playing with Time Sieve & Academy Ruins.
With the increase in popularity of the abzan coco decks recently, infinite life is something that may come up more (hopefully we can stop it from happening in the first place). However, I *think* we have a built-in way to deal with infinite life should that happen.
My question - Can this be presented as a loop:
You have Time Sieve with thopter/sword online and enough mana to begin taking as many turns as you want. You also have enough mana to activate Academy Ruins on each of these turns. You attack for some amount, make/sac at least 4 thopters and a mox opal (or any artifact that you can hit with ruins), put the opal on top of your library. Pass turn.
Draw opal, attack for some amount, make/sac thopters and mox, put mox on top, take extra turn.
Is this enough to present a loop and say that you will take X turns and deal X damage? Since you show that you won't deck yourself with ruins and can produce damage every turn, I'm curious if a judge would allow you to loop this in order to deal with "infinite" life. Any thoughts?
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Anyways, I really wanted to hear more about canonist vs. trinisphere and possibly any other SB card that hits the storm matchup but is useful in other bad matchups. Canonist comes down a turn sooner, isn't that strictly better against a fast deck like Storm? Trinisphere seems ok against Death Shadow if the game goes much past turn 3, big if though, has anyone tried it? For what bad matchups is canonist strictly better and vice versa?
For the record, I'm still riding the prism train. The card is more effective in the first 4 turns and in modern the game is typically decided by turn 4. Don't be afraid to prism for 1 counter, and don't be afraid to burn counters when it's meaningful. It's still sac fodder for foundry and improvises. Not very close IMO when compared to talisman, if you've played with both in conjunction with Whir/Herald.
I run 3 serum visions instead of 4
No push or decay, the five slots are filled with
3 stoic rebuttal and 2 Co. Brutality.
In the side i run 2 nature claim 2 abrupt decay and 1 maelstrom.
I really only want them for stony or rip. The push are uneeded they are redundant with bridge for creature control
Also i find jester cap super valuable in the side.
Vs scapeshift take the valakut
Vs ad naus and storm take the win con.
Vs tron grab o stone or karn or ulamog.
The stoic rebuttal is a 2 drop counter all card that has saved me from a echoing and hurkyl a ton
Debating 1 spell skite in the 75
Its more useful vs other things like karn or scapeshift, and forces the opponent to play around potential counters effectively slowing the game simetimes.
Mostly it fits my style
My main is
3 opal
4 bauble
2 welding
4 whir
4 pentad prism
3 serum visions
3 stoic rebuttal
2 co. Brutality
1 Eng exp
1 pithing
2 bridge
4 foundry
3 sword
3 tezzeret
Im debating trimming combo pieces because drawing multiple foundry or sword sucks.
Im 9 and 2 on xmage
And 7 and 3 on paper
Gonna play this list tonight
Unrelated: found out recently that Leyline of the Meek is pretty terrible for us. Took me way too long to figure out why I wasn't getting my sword back.
This being said, I notice from your list that you are totally walking away from alternate win conditions. When did you make that move and why, and how does it impact your game? I myself have good experience against white bears decks as they're pretty popular in my local metagame and it's true that these games often devolve into the grindiest. Now don't you think a Herald of Anguish, a Ghirapur Aether Grid or even a Hazoret the Fervent out of the board could have done work, speeding up the clock and giving you another SS-proof axis to fight on?
Lastly, about Storm, we haven't talked too much about overloading on GY hate while it seems a solid plan in theory. Anyone here tested going up to 3-4 Relics on top of Grafdigger's Cage? I'd like to see Storm go off through that -- and unlike Leyline, Relic have all the synergy and also cycle.
I don't think it's even worth starting to list cards that are worst when you draw a second copy of them, be it in this deck or all Tier 1 decks.
How? This seems hard to take seriously. Card from hand to the battlefield for free = card disadvantage? Pure one at that?
This has happened to me before too. It's no reason NOT to run the card that shuts half their deck down, come on. By that logic, we shouldn't care to run Ensnaring Bridge as they might just draw Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Spike, Boros Charm.
This is totally agree with.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be a d*ck or come at you personally, but I think you're being way too liberally dismissive of the card on flawed grounds, and being so affirmative in tone might mislead some readers, bad. For the record, I'm not even advocating for Leyline. However I think it's only fair to ask for better intellectual rigor.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
It has particular impact in games where winning via combo is just not where I want to be. Those other angles of attack our decks have become significantly harder to deal with when backed by more control.
Never streamed before so I'll try to get that set up as I'm happy to share my results good or bad. If I had to guess, I put close to $200 into the deck between purchasing tickets and trading most of my online collection off. However, I only bought in for the non-turbo version and haven't obtained crucible/EE yet (Turbo probably $4-500 Complete). I'll post my current list later on. I am tracking my results via a spreadsheet. Currently, 3-2, 3-2, 4-1 in Friendlies. 3 of those losses are to Tron (1% of the meta...so unlucky, to quote LSV).
The storm matchup felt really bad and I've been losing to it in paper too. Relic/cage isn't enough (I run 3/1 after board); they can win without Past in Flames. I'm gonna start with canonist first since the smaller CMC appears crucial. Trinisphere does hit KCI too though.
Whir of invention lists are the most popular. Chalice is ok some of us are using em some arent, i find they r only good vs our already good match ups
It's card disadvantage because unless it blanks at least 1 card in your opponents had (no way to tell) you just start the game with 6 cards because your 7th is a 4 mana do nothing enchantment. It's not proactive or synergistic.
I just looked at decks that place top 8 with this card in them. Almost every single deck was either a prison deck(synergy) or a combo deck that loses to a single discard spell(in those decks they run 4). This card neither has synergy nor are we completely useless after a single thoughtseize.
If it did anything proactive at all I'd be happier to get on board but I can't. The variance is way too swingy I want a card that increases my odds 8-12% consistently in a matchup not a card that either makes it a 100% or has no effect at all.
RE: Leyline. Fair arguments now, thanks for clarifying.
In other news I went out to a Wednesday night magic (non-Leyline list FYI) and finished 3-1, beating UW Control (2-0; Aether Grid FTW), Doran Stompy (2-1; did get T3 25'd in G2), UWR Aggro (2-0) losing only to Burkhart style Grixis Control (0-2) but to my own oversights and on the tiniest margins! Tale worth telling -- G1 after grinding through all the Commands and Squalls, our combo is finally online. With my last Foundry activation - to have a lethal thopter force on board and bring me up to 13 life - on the stack, opponent goes Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Cryptic bounce his Snap; fetches the last mana source from his library and Snap Bolts to 12 me dead! G2 I shred his hand bare, but overlook a single Relic activation which would've delayed his Tasigur a full turn. He's all-in on beatdown with Tasigur, Tar Pit and a blue Gearhulk on the last turn and I get in that spot where my only out is topdecking a Sword or Bridge. I draw land for turn, extend the hand for concession. I flip the top card of library: Sword. EDGES!!!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
All that being said:
@radouf: Are you on an Esper build right now? If so, would you mind sharing your current list?
Thanks all and keep up the good work!
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
So I'm back on UBg with this list: http://docker2.deckedbuilder.com:3001/d/303024
Cheers
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Second question, have you had any problems getting to 5 mana to use time sieve I this build?
Your UWR Whir deck featured on GP Copenhagen's stream: https://m.imgur.com/wYdxidm
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/6dn3kb/new_archetype_in_modern_saheelis_inventions/
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
So far all my testing has been with the combo jammed awkwardly in the main, but next up will be dedicating about 7 spots in the board, where I'll swap out foundries and swords for it in matchups where flying 1/1's are obsolete. This will be tough, but the SB is so open with this deck I think I can make it work.
Sideboard something like (UBr with some rainbow lands):
4 saheeli
1 altar of the brood
1 liquimetal coating
1 felidar guardian
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 anger of the gods
2 wear//tear
1 ethersworn canonist
1 extirpate
1 scrap trawler
I could even play a single saheeli main to free a sb slot because she's never a terrible card go have, can win behind a bridge, and can be a lightning rod for removal/attackers. I dunno, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
EDIT: thanks for the links radouf, that was cool to see.
You tap Liquimetal Coating to make Saheeli Rai an artifact. Then use her -2 to make a copy of her, except she's an artifact. Bury the original Saheeli, use the -2 on the token that was made, and make another copy of the her. Rinse....repeat.
With Altar of the Brood, it sees each copy hit the field and mills them one. You can make infinite copies of Saheeli and mill them out this way.
With the increase in popularity of the abzan coco decks recently, infinite life is something that may come up more (hopefully we can stop it from happening in the first place). However, I *think* we have a built-in way to deal with infinite life should that happen.
My question - Can this be presented as a loop:
You have Time Sieve with thopter/sword online and enough mana to begin taking as many turns as you want. You also have enough mana to activate Academy Ruins on each of these turns. You attack for some amount, make/sac at least 4 thopters and a mox opal (or any artifact that you can hit with ruins), put the opal on top of your library. Pass turn.
Draw opal, attack for some amount, make/sac thopters and mox, put mox on top, take extra turn.
Is this enough to present a loop and say that you will take X turns and deal X damage? Since you show that you won't deck yourself with ruins and can produce damage every turn, I'm curious if a judge would allow you to loop this in order to deal with "infinite" life. Any thoughts?