MTG Salvation

Hey guys. Made some changes, it makes the land matchups free wins which is required in my meta. It's easily scaled back into a little more balance but overall the deck is running more smoothly than it ever has before. I hust basically had to anandon the mox opal/high artifact count. It makes tez whiff more but his main modes are 5/5 on turn 2 or 3 or play him a turn after thopter sword has made a few blockers for a lethal ultimate.

Artifact
4 thopter Foundry
3 ensnaring bridge
3 pentad prism
3 sword of the meek
1 crucible of worlds
1 talisman of dominance
1 time sieve
1 grafdigger's cage

Sorcery
4 serum visions
3 collected brutality

Creature
1 simian spirit guide

Enchantment
3 spreading seas

Instants
4 whir of invention
3 opt

Planeswalkers
4 tezzeret, agent of bolas
1 tezzeret the seeker

Lands
3 island
1 flooded strand
1 breeding pool
2 darkslick shores
4 gemstone caverns
2 watery grave
1 scalding tarn
3 polluted delta
1 spire of industry
2 field of ruin

Sb
1 field of ruin
4 abrupt decay
1 nihil spellbomb
1 relic of progenitus
2 flaying tendrils
2 surgical extraction
2 lost legacy
2 damnation

Hi mates!

Thx for your answers, I would like to ask some things about them :

@radouf : feels like your proposals all rely on your pentad prism to make them fast enough. Quicksilver fountain seems expensive to whir of you don't have it and the Tezz plan needs targets to animate and need to be online really fast. I'm more seeking for something that would not rely on my ability to cast spells ahead of the normal land schedule. I like GQ+surge or GQ+Crucible of worlds but I'm not sure of how to include in without wrecking the mana Base.

@the nobodys :glad you like it but I'm not sure of what your first sentence means (my English is not perfect so I might not know a part of it). Anyway I thought for quite some time to put sorcerous spyglass in the main board but it turn out that the additional effect is often completely overkill. I'll explain : with a good number of discard spells and and the informations the opponent gives away just by playing, I'm almost every time able to know what my opponent plays, and what cards needs to be negated in which deck. The only time it's problematic is when I have the card in my hand and my opponent's deck contains multiple good targets. But most of the time I whir for it in response, in wich case I already know what is coming. About lost legacy, I'm would like to know what you cut from the sideboard to make room for it. I feel like it's a card that has only utility when it's played early, and as a one of it seems like a long shot.

Also I am thinking only of the regular tron decks. As eldrazi tron seems to be one of the easiest of our match ups.

@radouf : feels like your proposals all rely on your pentad prism to make them fast enough. Quicksilver fountain seems expensive to whir of you don't have it and the Tezz plan needs targets to animate and need to be online really fast. I'm more seeking for something that would not rely on my ability to cast spells ahead of the normal land schedule. I like GQ+surge or GQ+Crucible of worlds but I'm not sure of how to include in without wrecking the mana Base.

Indeed, indeed. Prism enables all of what you described above. I'm unsure how reliable this stuff gets without it, but from my testing, Prism indeed is a corner stone in making these plays happen in time to counter Tron. I doubt // actually I know for a fact that GQ + Extraction or GQ + Crucible would aren't enough on their own to win you the game, let alone the match.

They merely tip Tron off balance for a couple turns, but they'll recover if you don't keep the pressure up. That's why T2 Prism into T3 Tezz smashing + GQ is such potent ; it's a 3 turn clock with minimal tweaking to a regular Whir (Prism running) decklist. Whir makes it so that you have steady access to your Fountain (or GQ if you run a singleton Expedition Map). So... this sounds like a plan, don't it?

If you run GQ's, and cut back on Prisms, man are you going to have a hard time casting Whir. Which is one of the best cards in your deck ; Whir for Needle in response to O-Stone or Karn? Tempo.

Is anyone else not running prism anymore? I've had more success recently without prism. I'm playing a second spyglass main, an extra land, an extra jar, and a bottled cloister.

Prism is good game 1 normally, but game 2 it is very bad most of the time except when your only hope to win is maybe a turn 3 tezz.

Notes- I run 2 spyglass no needles. I have had no issues with not having needle, and spyglass is insanely better as you can hit random lands when it's bad. It's also much better with 3 chalice post board (especially vs tron)

I always want extra lands while playing and I lose plenty of times with bridge and combo in hand but not enough lands. Prism just saves Mana for next turn it doesn't actually make you continue to progress Mana.

Bottled cloister is insane and I'm sad I ever cut it. Versus many decks you need to be at 0 cards with a bridge (affinity/faeries) , which cloister enables while still progressing a board plan or making thopters. It's also a whirrable win condition versus stony silence decks. It's similar to JTMS in legacy in the fact that just drawing an extra card per turn ends up being a win condition in itself.


I've also been doing 4 lost legacy in the board. I obliterate storm now. Scape shift is better but not perfect, and green tron is still a bit difficult, but enough stony/chalice/lost legacy effects make them just draw air for enough turns to win.

I need to decide on an actual way to beat the coco decks still. I feel thopter combo is somewhat medium, but they have many strong disrupting cards to fully ever lock them out with a bridge. My current plan has been more green cards as removal and a draw 2 effect (tezz/bottle/padeem).

Padeem is also insanely good. Best card vs noble hierarch/ancient grudge and grindy matchups.


I've focused on legacy the past few months so I haven't been active here (I actually won the SCG legacy open 2 weeks ago with deathblade) looking to get more active in modern again.

Molz7, plenty of people don't play prism, myself included, and it has been debated quite a bit even going back to the old Tezz thread. Glad to hear you're on the Lost Legacy plan, I was playing four in the board for quite a bit but have gone down to 3. I've even been bringing it in on the play vs grindy decks that rely on a single hate spell, like grudge or stony, the idea being you can blank their silver bullet. Just today, I was able to beat E tron by naming All is Dust, and Ad Nauseum in games 2 and 3 naming AN of course. The other day I got a concession game 3 against dredge by naming grudge.

I have never tested cloister, always afraid of leaving it in post-board and having my hand stripped away by a destroy artifact card. Wouldn't we always rather see Padeem? Or do you actually whir for it? If you're whirring for an artifact behind a bridge, why wouldn't it be a foundry or sword? Or if you have foundry and sword, wouldn't cloister be better as one of the infinite pieces, either sieve or ironworks? I don't think its ability to improve bridge is that relevant, as if you have a turn to drop a 4 cmc card, you could most certainly just play out your other cards. But, hey, what do I know? Like I said, I've never tested it. I do see its value vs stony silence as a second thing to whir for after bridge.

Please forget my last build. The deck is not worth playing without the explosiveness of mox opals.

Yeah, that list seems cool.

I was playing against an interesting charbelcher deck for the win and in g3. My opening hand had fast combo and a pithing needle and I had 2 lost legacies in the deck. I felt pretty strong. I turn one'd a thopter foundry he had a turn 1 wall of roots and ancient grudged my foundry. At this point he's reduced me to lost legacy or bust. I miss drawing lost legacy the next turn and he gets his belcher out. I draw the legacy next turn.

Basically this sums up the fundamental weakness of the deck. You have to have artifacts to make it function and after side we're blanked by stony/grudge/vandalblast/shatterstorm

Imagine trying to play a creature deck if terminate flashed back for one, damantion was a thing, fatal push kickered into a damnation, and there was an enchantment for 1W that make your creatures absolutely worthless. You just couldn't ever win. That's the position we're in.

I still love the deck and want to see it work, but there needs to be post SB strategy that's viable in the face of pervasive hate.

Since the PLaneswalker uniqueness change we're not punished for running big tez anymore, so I'm looking at a build that's trying to guarantee one of the tezzerets by turn three and smashing face with 5/5s

It looks like that's what this recent list is doing and I think it has promise.

Quote from 7he5haman »

Another strong finish (13th place) in the MTGO Challenge by a (non-Turbo) Tezz deck: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2017-11-12

This one has included the Thopter-Sword combo in the MB (which is a change from Meltiin's Challenge-winning list (see a post from Radouf above)).

And the SB is a thing of beauty!

Hey Radouf, I know you spent some time on the dark side with lantern. What can you tell us about the evolution of that lantern list that did well? It seems like it has recived a lot of the innovation we had been working on but in a streamlined top control shell.

Indeed I do! Well « they » now basically run our deck minus Thopter-Sword and Tezz, plus the top control package. That’s for the blue (Whir) version that has really taken off and become mainstream after I picked the deck back up a couple months back. Looking for a list I went on the Lantern FB group and discussed and hyped the potential of the card Whir of Invention with masterguru Kanister. He then drafted what we know today as blue Lantern, picked it up to an amazing win rate and the rest is history.

It is powerful there’s no doubt (yet still taxing to play & a pain for your opponents) but first and foremost VERY consistent thanks to Whir + Stirrings and Baubles enabling selective self-mill with all the mill rocks. So it has improved game in all former medium match-ups, which is great. Although it has a little less game than straight GB Lantern in corner cases such as in the face of Blood Moon, or in bad match-ups. That is to say... vs Green Tron and that’s pretty much it! Because Whir has pushed the GQs out for triple-blue mana requirements. And we eventually dropped Surgical Extractions. But that’s ok since Gx Tron decks had all but disappeared for a while. Big mana: MB Witchbane Orb (you read that right) fixed the Valakut match-up.

Then about the hate, which is what really cripples us on Tezz I think, as it comes from all angles and in all forms, each of which would demand from us different answers (to their answers — which stretches us bad at the ejd of the day). Well top control don’t let the opponent topdeck it, that’s the whole point of the gameplan. A huge chunk of the deck is dedicated to this. That’s why i personally took refuge in this shell as my local meta has become very, very hostile to artifacts.

Another key difference i think is that Lantern is so darn low-to-the-ground and explosive (in being disruptive) that its easy to « go under » the opponent with proactive control elements. Where Tezz mostly dabbles and tries to « « go over ». This gives the edge to Lantern against Vizier Company, or Bant Knightfall i believe, which in my experience are packed with ways around what Tezz’s trying to set up. But on the other hand, the lesser punch means Lantern has a tougher time against Grixis Shadow and Eldrazi Tron, which aren’t bad match-ups mind you, but on the rough side at say 55-45, where one tiny decision can make or break the game. As Lantern can’t just Tezz ‘em dead or go nuts with Thopters.

Now its just starting to thread among Lantern players to run a foundry and a sword just to see. And i rejoice

/e: See here for Kanister’s results and decklists: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/kanister

I just flipped through his lists. Very interesting to see how once he added Whir of Invention he started bringing the game 1 hate in cards like Grafdigger's Cage and Withbane Orb. The issue I have always had with the deck was beating the cards the sneak through the lock in the first couple of turns like Planeswalkers, O power attackers or Ensnaring Bridge removal. Whir does seem to help a lot in all of those situations.

I have been having a lot of success in testing the most recent Tezzeret shells and adapting to the current meta game but it is difficult to argue that the lantern route might just be better than the thopter/sword strategy. The number of unfavorable matchups for tezzeret decks at the top tables has been increasing. The Thalia's in humans and taxes decks are brutal, Tron and Valakut are difficult as usual. Shadow isn't terribly favorable and neither is game 1 against storm.

I love the deck but I think it is time we start exploring some more ways to beat up on the tier 1 metagame again. Last major adaptions were for Whir and sideboard splashes.

I'll update again once I feel I have found something worth pursuing but I see holes in the metagame we may be able to adapt to with Tezzeret lists much like how lantern has been adapting. Namely this article has peaked my interest. https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/decks-like-deaths-shadow-will-always-become-the-best-deck/ In summary it is saying all powerful eternal formats will eventually evolve into Turbo Xerox vs Big Mana/Prison. We are starting to see with with Eldrazi Tron/Valakut as well as Death's Shadow and Storm. Generally you want to pick a side and be the best deck on that side but we are not going to be better at either of those strategies than the already established decks. We however can blur lines between the 2 better than almost anyone else can.

Thorn of Amethyst,Trinisphere,Chalice of the Void, Lodestone Golem. All proven to be some of the best ways to beat up on Turbo Xerox decks. All also artifacts.

Crucible of Worlds lets us keep pace with big mana and so doesn't Mox Opal

We have dumps for situation cards in Collective Brutallity, Thirst for Knowledge and Liliana of the Veil

A lot of the prison elements have been there in the more recent successful lists running all 4x Ensnaring Bridge.

If we can figure out how to bridge the gap, I think we will really have something but this has proven to be more difficult than I first anticipated.

Happy Testing.

Wise words my friend.

I've found another interesting set of data in Legacy Tezzerator, which I've started building toward.

Latest iterations of the deck are the craziest, man. Such an open «archetype». It does blur the line between... many things. See for yourselves :

Tezzerator / Painter's hybrid : http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17513&d=308493&f=LE

Just Grixis Tezzerator : http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17466&d=308123&f=LE

Affinity / Tezzerator hybrid : http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17010&d=305240&f=LE

Radouf, thanks for the links. I've often messed around with a painter/tezz build, but I always go too mad genius and include too many cute interractions.

I think if we're facing a lot of tron... I've been running a grixis list with main-deck moon recently, and it's still only decent against them. (Moon often auto-wins more against DS decks, and stuff like amulet titan than it wins vs tron). The problem is, our clock is so slow that moon delaying them doesn't always give us enough time before they wipe our board. I think just trying to race them with sieve combo while dropping spyglass to disrupt is the way to go.

And about changing the list to attack the current top dogs, I have been taking out cards like Collective Brutality (because burn is not much these days) and a few other things for sweepers. I think playing 4 bridges, or 2 bridges/2 damnation is the way to go these days.

So hear me out. I'm going to summarize some of my thoughts from reading posts here and skimming the web for new ideas. I still think my recent list with lost legacy is pretty strong and I've been happy with it (and I plan to play it at the SCG classic this weekend), but I'm trying to explore.

Our deck is in 3 different camps. Combo, Control, and Prison.

Prison - We do this well. Bridge, blocking with thopters, spyglass effects. Shuts down creatures and nullifies a large portion of our opponents removal.

Control - We do this poorly. My only interaction cards are brutality and sideboard pieces. We aren't trying to damnation or one for 1 our opponent, but more stick to the prison plan to buy time until we get to combo.

Combo - How we end the game. Too slow to only rely on the combo normally unless it is versus a creature/fair deck.


When I saw the newer list doing well with 4 damnation and 4 lilly in it, I started thinking. Thats our deck skewing more towards the control camp. If the control and prison camp work well the combo is irrelevant, but an effective way to eventually win.

This got me thinking about what the deck would look like if it skewed towards one of the other extremes. I originally tried to play with more of a prison shell that incorporated bloodmoons in the sideboard, but haven't been super impressed so far. It's fine versus tron/scapeshift, but they're already bringing in all of their hate and we can't protect it with a jar. I've been very happy with chalice over time as well. I was trying to come up with a variant that ran bridge/bloodmoon/chalice, but then it seems like I should just be playing blue moon or lantern instead for better consistency.

Then I thought what if we push towards the other extreme and become more of a combo deck? I still want some prison elements because Ensnaring bridge is a messed up magic card, but if we're extremely proactive can we beat the scapeshift/tron matchups by just ignoring their plan?

This is where I've ended to revisit the idea of merging UB Thopters with Krark-Clan Ironworks combo. I met someone at a local shop playing around with the idea a while back.

My list would look something like this as a first take:





I've never played KCI, but this deck seems more consistent at comboing (infinite life/thopters). ~21 cantrips in the main, and 4 tutors for combo pieces.

This deck also has the straight forward play foundry/sword draws or play bridge and dump my hand draws.

It's obviously a bit weaker to stony silence, hence the green removal in the board and ability to crutch on ensnaring bridge in those matchups. Maybe play a bottled cloister in the board (I've been seriously impressed with this as a way to beat stony).


I feel like this is a bit more resilient to spot artifact removal because there are too many pieces that need to be interacted with.


I haven't tested this at all, but maybe I'll give it a spin this week.

Looking for comments or constructive building on this, or for someone to say this is crazy and KCI is terrible.

@Mol7 - KCI is terrible and this is crazy. lol. BUT, you do have some very good points and ideas being thrown around here. Namely the committing more to one type of deck than a mixture of all 3. We are best at being a prison deck like you said, and second best at being a combo deck.

When you mentioned spyglass effects I totally forgot we have new card in Sorcerous Spyglass. I hate to play chalice because I would lose out on serum visions, hand disruption, pithing needle and relic of progenitus. However spyglass makes that a little less of a problem. I feel like I NEED hand disruption though. In games 2-3 I have stripped cards i couldn't beat otherwise countless times.

This leads me to believe that instead of Chalice of the Void, maybe we should be trying 3-4 copies of Trinisphere. I can still fire off my hand disruption for cheap but them lock down most of my opponents deck. After all, Whir always costs 3+ and so doesn't ensnaring bridge and tezzeret. Paying one more for a combo piece that we don't whir into play does't sound awful to me either.

I have been wanting to test KCI as my third combo piece but I have been playing on MTGO and it is rather cumbersome to gain a lot of life with the combo on there in a timely manner. I think comboing harder is going to be our best solution against big mana. "Be proavtive". But instead of beating down just have them be straight dead on T3/4.

Isn't the elephant in the room that no matter what we try to do with our deck games 2 and 3 the artifact hate is way too powerful to overcome?

Has anyone legitimately tried the duskmantle Seer and mine crank sideboard?

Duskmantle guildmage. Add for Guild Mages 2 to 3 Minecranks. Can water in the crank and you have for the other pieces of the combo and they slide out removal usually. I don't know I think it might be worth a try

Whir*

Seeker is incredibly great, he was pretty awesome with the old PW rules, but not ideal because agent wants to stay on the board to be worth it. Now that you can have both he seems like a lopsided mist play. In g1 he acts like a repeatable whir, g2 he is an artifact hate-resistant win con. I'm going to try three of him.

Right now the meta has swung like crazy, tron is reeling from storm and burn is almost nonexistent (where I am at least) so I'm going to use my two mainboard collective slots toward biz tez number three and probably a fourth prism.

I've been testing the Liliana plan for a few weeks now too. I think She has gotten much better with the metagame shift. Trying to turbo her out with 4 mox's since she mitigates the redundant ones with her +1.

This is what I've been toying with. Lots of Tron in my meta, but also burn so it's tough to navigate a Tezz deck.