MTG Salvation

What about ob nix, or Jace memory adept? Both are viable wincons. Jace probably being the best

I would be more inclined toward vraska the unseen (can get rid of stony silence) or ashiok, nightmare weaver (unconventional win condition via mill) but I'm skeptical that there is really a need for a planeswalker not named liliana of the veil or tezzeret agent of bolas.

It's just every one was talking about a second wincon. Planeswalker behind bridge is the only viable option I see

It's a good idea to have more than one angle of attack, but that's basically what tezzeret agent of bolas gives the deck. Actually in one card he gives you two different win conditions - the 5/5 beatdowns or the drain life from behind a bridge. The fact his other ability is also insanely good in the deck (finds combo pieces) is why he's our go-to "plan B" after thopter/sword/sieve.

The question is whether more planeswalkers than the standard 3 tezzeret AoB are needed, and if so which ones and do they go MD or SB. I've moved my 3rd Tezz to the board (2 MD) and was trying a Tezzeret the Seeker rather than another Agent of Bolas but don't think its actually different/better enough. Jury is also still out on liliana of the veil but she's at least more or less pulled her weight in the MD.

I haven't played maindeck tezz in a while, but have had 1-2 in the side always. Game one, the alternate line of attack isn't needed - no one is going to surgical foundry game one, or cast stony, or needle foundry (aside from lantern). If that extra line of attack is needed, Lili is the best IMO because she attacks cards in hand and permanents on the board, and comes down early . -6 doesn't WIN the game... but it does win the game. If that makes any sense. Which it does if you have played her for any length of time.

The hard matchups for us will always be, one, quick combo, which we can fight well with powerful artifacts - that's why I load up on combo hate like canonist, consul of allocation, cage, and needle. The other hard matchup is big mana decks, which I've stopped really trying to address in the SB and simply hope to race with sieve.

I think you're on the right track of game one being a thopter-sword game with minimal or no backup plans. Ive been trying to think of game 1 scenarios where the combo doesnt get there if assembled. A scavenging ooze with lots of green - but we can needle it. Needle or phyrexian revoker which are very unusual md cards and not much worth worrying about. Maindeck rest in peace (rw prison does that sometimes). Ghostly prisons and leylines (pillow fort) and mill decks.

I think its worth at least one "out" in the maindeck just to hedge against random things like a maindecked surgical but that's likely it. The risk with singletons is they get thoughtseized but the odds they are breaking your thopter and thoughtseizing your singleton tezz seem ridiculously low and not Worth hedging around.

Now post-sb agent of bolas looks like the dream vs hate cards not named shatterstorm and thats where having 3 copies sounds better.

Liliana im not sure if she follows same path - 1 main 1-2 sb?

Quote from Reedy26 »

this is a bit silly. you're saying tezz is a sideboard card, in a tezz deck... if you're not maindecking tezz there really is no point to be playing all these artifacts, you may as well play a UBx/esper control shell with whir and a handful of artifacts for improvise/control, i.e. EE as a board wipe, needle etc. and that way you can devote the deck to assembling the combo. the whole point of building the deck the way it is is because of tezzeret. without him you're playing sub optimal cards for no reason/with no real pay off, tezz ult, 5/5s and the combo make a fluid deck that can attack on multiple angles, switch from an aggro to a control/prison plan in an instant and stabilise against a near-unbeatable board state with the combo. it baffles me how its even being considered that tezz isnt worthy of maindeck slots...

I guess I'm a little confused by your criticism. Regarding the first bolded section, all the artifacts I play are either silver bullets, free cantrips, free mana, or part of the combo. There's really not a lot of chaff there. They are not sub-optimal, they are optimal in a deck that hopes to assemble the thopter/sword combo asap.

I guess the only reason I have to run the list that I do are all the 5-0 and 4-1 results on MTGO it has provided. Just because we call this shell a "tezz" deck, doesn't mean that Tezz:AoB can't be played out of the board, or that in certain lists, he is best suited to the board. By your logic, you should be on the affinity thread telling them they need to go back to playing frogmite to justify their name. I've played a lot of Tezz decks, both in modern and legacy. Some current legacy Tezz builds run 4 Dack Fayden, and only 3 Tezz, but they continue to identify as "tezz" because the deck refers to a UBx artifact prison/combo/control shell, and not because it rides on the back of AoB pluses and minuses.

The point of testing and developing decks isn't to pledge loyalty to a favorite card, but to tune things to optimal performance. I happen to believe that, in the current modern meta, Tezz works best out of the board. I'll gladly discuss my reasons and accept that others have different results or opinions on the matter, but I don't think that the disucussion is "silly."

@ BadMcFadden - You're right that having one other "out" in the main is reasonable, and that's kind of why I run a singleton Lingering Souls. I could put Lili in the SB too, but she rarely gets boarded out (basically just affinity and other swarm decks). I could test moving a couple to the SB, but I really am in love with her low 3 CMC and how she fits in with our curve, and how she doesn't rely on artifacts.

Think of the deck as ub thopter instead of ub tezeret. Game 1 plan is thoptersword with either sieve or bridge if necessary. Now assume you can reliably thopter sword and make tokens by turn 4. What is tezzeret doing? Why do you want a planeswalker instead of life, tokens, and the option of going infinite turns?

Hes an alternate angle of attack for when thoptersword flops. The questions are 1 how often does thoptersword flop g1 and 2 can you really get the combo online that reliably game one? With serum mudle whir and cantrips im confidant I can get it assembled quickly g1 - turn 4 active more often than not. What will beat me? Surgical. Rip. Needle. Aka sideboard cards. Why am I playing tezz main again?

Think of it like scapeshift/valakut. You play g1 with primary win condition only, then you board in to baloths and titans to get around hate. We could be a thopter deck g1 that boards into tezz for a different way to win that doesnt nonbo with the whole deck - ramp into baloth/titan works. Cheap artifacts into tez works (even if stony).

Its theory. Does it work? Or do we actually fail to get thoptersword more than I think we do and really need multiple tezeret to ensure we do something relevant. Time will tell but I find most of the time when I draw a tez I dont want it - hes going to maybe resolve, maybe get me a card, and then almost certainly die (unless bridge is down). Hes brutaly slow vs fast decks and can screw you from lowering bridge esp when your hand is tez and a couple whirs.

But if you're freeing 2 slots from the MB, what are you even adding in Tezz's place? Muddle the Mixture? Cards that were previously in your sideboard? If so, which SB cards are more MB worthy than Tezzeret himself?

I was already at 2 tez 2 lil main with 1 tez sb. My next round of tests is moving one more tez and one liliana to side in favour of the 4th thopter foundry and a second collective brutality (2 swords fyi).

Theoretically game one is about surviving or racing to the combo and hoping most decks cannot easily interact. Brutality should help vs fast aggressive decks even if its just shreding your hand for a bridge, while being ok vs control at peeking to strip or force a counterspell so you can resolve a foundry. Ive had bad luck w brutality personally as I seem to draw it vs wild nacatls and whiff on the duress 95 percent of the time, but it ought to be better than my experience (and yes ive seen it demolish burns turn 1 guide/swift hands).

Ive seen someone else here on the 4/2 foundry sword split so want to try it, although if Im all-in on game one combo the third sword is probably better than something like chromatic star or executioners capsule.

Cutting Tezzeret is a terrible idea. Honestly, I don't even want to go into a debate about it because I think there is zero merit to debating it. If you are playing enough artifacts for Whir of Invention to be better than Fabricate than you should also be playing Tezzeret. If you are playing neither of these cards than you are constructing a completely different deck than what is being construed here.

Saying Tezzeret is not needed game 1 is absurd. You are not even playing him for either of us his minus abilities. Like any planeswalker those are just bonuses. You are playing him as a repeatable source of card advantage that digs for the combo quickly. Saying you don't need Tezzeret because you have the combo is illogical because Tezzeret only further increases the likelihood of being able to find your combo pieces.

If you wanted to be playing just turbo thopter/sword than you should be on a Gifts Ungiven deck that can effectively "1 card combo" with ways to stay alive and dig to Gifts.

Its a theory. I wont defend it especially strongly until ive tried it for a good number of matches.

I wil just say that paying four to draw a card and gain 4 life is not a good deal. This deck cannot defend a tezzeret g1 other than bridge, unless you're on a push-crane build or something I guess.

I was referring to inferno titans and baloths out of the board. I don't know if that's a thing anymore since people all play through the breach now, but at one point that was a common sideboard trick for scapeshift to get around negates and blood moons etc.

Primeval titan is pretty much just a ramp spell that gets more valakut triggers. I'm sure there are tight games where the bit of trample makes the difference and absurd games where they handle valakut but can't handle titan, but mostly that 6/6 body might as well be a 0/6 because if you get to swing with it game usually is over right there before blockers are even declared. Anyways, not the titan i was referring to.


And just for the full picture this is what I'm testing atm - as I say, don't trust it as its experimental but this is how I've drafted up the idea of combo-focused g1. I would not be shocked in the end to find that its better off with those AoB in the main to shore up midrange/attrition matches and free up sideboard slots for higher impact cards, but I want to give it a try to see how it feels.



The board is almost certainly too geared into the midrange spectrum. Unless that miraculously turns out to work - moving from a combo deck game 1 into a midrange deck game 2... at which point let's just add 4 tarmogoyfs and call it a day ;p

Quote from smidondrej »

I'm lazy and tired to write more detailed review, so just ask me if you wanna know more specifically (sideboarding, decisions in games, key cards, sequencing, hate, answers,...)
Also I would love to test on MTGO, but funds are low. This way my only testing is once/twice a week, plus about 50 games on Cockatrice and similar (horrible community, always got trashtalked/kicked, opp left or was play ing nothing nothing near the tier 3)

howgh

1. How do you find the split of tendrils, damnation, and grid in the sideboard? Staticaster was recommended earlier and I gave it a brief try before just not liking it compared to damnation as there are matches where clearing the board entirely and quickly is paramount. Damnation seems to hit the maximum range of everything so I'm on 2 of those with 0 grid 0 stati 0 tendril. We have cage and relic for grave nonsense so i don't see tendrils being worth it over damnation? Esp when you have brutality for smaller dudes. I want to like grid, but I just had some rough times with it - unable to cast under stony, no artifacts to ping with, opponent with a leyline, etc. It also got doubled up with wear/tear once, that was a bad day.

2. Does GQ/Crucible work? I had the impression people found it too slow and moved on to basically just conceding the tron match. In addition to it being kinda slow they also have relics to just exile the quarter from the grave if they want to break it (or karn away the crucible if they get him down t3). I havent tried it myself and really wish there was a better plan vs tron than spam needles and pray.

Quote from racing089 »

Cutting Tezzeret is a terrible idea.

Moving a card to the sideboard isn't cutting it.

If you wanted to be playing just turbo thopter/sword than you should be on a Gifts Ungiven deck that can effectively "1 card combo" with ways to stay alive and dig to Gifts.

I don't currently play Tezz, a 4 cmc card draw/filter and occasional wincon, main deck because I have had no problem assembling the combo and winning with it game one with consistency. For many, many games online this has proved true for me. So I would never play Gifts, a 4 CMC, grave-based tutor that requires several turns after resolving to put the combo in play. Way way too slow.

I don't have a problem with folks ignoring what they consider sub-optimal suggestions, but please don't try to put the kibosh on ideas that have been arrived at, and provided reasoning for, by dedicated testers of the deck archetype. Your sig would disapprove of that attitude, I think. Myself and BadMcFadden are currently on builds that have 0 Pentad Prisms, a card as you know I have been down on for a long time, and so it COULD be that in our builds, without that ramp spell, Tezz is not a 3 of main deck anymore.

Thanks for the report! Let your friend on Etron know that a Chalice on 2 will counter a chalice on 1 (X counts as cmc while a spell is on the stack.) Don't want him getting burned in a more competitive setting

Still crushing with gemstone caverns and Tezzeret.

@thenobodys: All I am trying to suggest is that once you have cut Tezzeret from the deck you are free to do a lot of different things, including playing a lot fewer artifacts in your deck and becoming less all in on artifacts. Your deck could look something like this:

4/3 Thopter/Sword
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Whir of Invention
4 Serum Visions
21 Lands
16 Other Cards

You could play ~15 artifacts instead of 22+. Now you have 16 cards to take the deck in any direction you want. You don't even have to be in black anymore, you could be UW.

Simply taking the Tezzerets out is not correct unless you radically change the rest of the deck. And you can do that, in fact I encourage that kind of thinking because that's how decks evolve in Modern.

Handicapping yourself with a bunch of artifacts for a sideboard Tezzeret game plan is likely less powerful than a main deck Tezzeret plan or a deck without Tezzeret at all.

[quote from="jonnyreco »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/773189-ubx-tezzeret-agent-of-bolas-control?comment=1200"]Thoughts on trash to treasure?? [/quote

Card is super cool but none of us have found the perfect thing to do with it yet. I like the idea of using it with Sundering Titan because you get a big dude, a great ETB effect and once you have him in play you can sacrifice him to trash for treasure and bring him back getting his trigger 2 times decimating your opponents lands.

Quote from racing089 »

@thenobodys: All I am trying to suggest is that once you have cut Tezzeret from the deck you are free to do a lot of different things, including playing a lot fewer artifacts in your deck and becoming less all in on artifacts. Your deck could look something like this:

4/3 Thopter/Sword
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Whir of Invention
4 Serum Visions
21 Lands
16 Other Cards

You could play ~15 artifacts instead of 22+. Now you have 16 cards to take the deck in any direction you want. You don't even have to be in black anymore, you could be UW.

Simply taking the Tezzerets out is not correct unless you radically change the rest of the deck. And you can do that, in fact I encourage that kind of thinking because that's how decks evolve in Modern.

Handicapping yourself with a bunch of artifacts for a sideboard Tezzeret game plan is likely less powerful than a main deck Tezzeret plan or a deck without Tezzeret at all.

Except whir of invention is at its best when you can reliably turn 3 with x for 2 or 3, mox opal is unplayable without a high cheap artifact count, and bridge benefits greatly from quickly dumping your hand with 0-1cmc cards.

I would love to just throw thoptersword 4/3 in a random serum visions deck and not be so cold to artifact hate, but it doesnt work. It becomes slow and unreliable and you soon realize you should just play lingering souls or snapcasters or tasigurs as less finicky win conditions.

Tezz aob felt more untouchable before whir of invention, because your only option was to be a control deck with the combo finish as reliably getting the combo out on turn 4 was just not possible. Whir changes that tremendously and allows you to be a combo deck with silver bullets instead of a control deck with a combo finish (which is bad because control doesnt want a vulnerable/disruptable combo finish really)