I've been bringing this list for 2 FNMs now. I went 4-0 last time and won a PR for Amonkhet. Pretty stock, the mainboard Fulminators is a concession to Tron and other ramp decks. The extra Abrupt in the SB is to combat Blood Moon and other unknown shenanigans which are also rampart in my meta. Will be slotting in a pair of Surgicals in my SB probably taking out 1 Anger and Thrun/Baloth.
I'm currently buying into jund and am wondering whether blood moon in the sideboard is still advised over fulminator mage? It seems like everyone is preferring fulminator nowadays. Also, would playing a copy of twilight mire be advisable if I plan to go with sb blood moon?
Blood Moon has fallen out of favour, yeah. Fulminator is more narrow, but won't hurt us ourself like BM does. If you play BM, however, play 4 basics (either 3 swamp/1 Forest or 2/2 split).
Mates, the list above is what I'll test this weekend at my LGS. The meta there is pretty diverse, and i feel the list is well tuned even to an open field.
Whats your opinions
It does seem decent but Tireless Tracker seems much better in that kind of a slot and people have been including it occasionally in the main or the sideboard for grindy matchups. If you drop it turn 4 and it resolves, your opponent still doesn't have priority, play a fetch, trigger goes on the stack, hold priority and fetch for your second trigger, you're going to get two clues even if they try to remove it, so it makes it much easier to get any value. Plus it can become very big very quick, get out of bolt range, and become a game ending threat while continuing to get you card advantage without having to connect with combat damage.
Great point on Tireless Tracker. Thank you for your reply.
@ flyingdelver: awesome primer i really enjoyed reading it was helpful and insightful. my only concern is that you seem to be suggesting blood moon more then what's needed imho.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
They can remove it in response to the fetch unless, of course, they are tapped out. I'd leave my fetchland uncracked if I have Tracker out. They're going to try and be tricky, casting removal in response to your fetch, so it's best to not give them that chance and not crack for a land at their end step. Instead, just go take your turn regularly so you can play a land from hand. Most good control player won't try to 'get you' out of the 2nd clue, anyway, and just accept that it's coming.
@ flyingdelver: awesome primer i really enjoyed reading it was helpful and insightful. my only concern is that you seem to be suggesting blood moon more then what's needed imho.
Thanks, glad that the primer is enjoyable and helpful!
In which part do you think Blood Moon is oversuggested? I recently tried to focus more on Fulminator but just let Blood Moon in the primer, for anyone who wants to run BM.
With how good Surgical Extraction is against them, I'd keep in IOK as well. There's nothing in the deck it doesn't hit except Street Wraith (Jund builds), and that's gonna get cycled anyway.
With how good Surgical Extraction is against them, I'd keep in IOK as well. There's nothing in the deck it doesn't hit except Street Wraith (Jund builds), and that's gonna get cycled anyway.
Yea, I did this the last couple times I played against Death's Shadow Jund. It was really good. If you don't have efficient removal to bring in, I'd keep the discard in after sideboard.
Surgical is definitely a house against them. If they play discard against you, they're pretty obligated to take it no matter how great the rest of your hand looks like.
So, in general whats your sideboard plan look like and what are you guys bringing in for the matchup and taking out?
I have suggestions packed into the primer already, as chaos021 and I had a Quick discussion on the matchup lately, the suggestions are the results we came up with. Feel free to look through them and then give feedback on it if you think something is odd there.
I honestly don't think Fulminator is that good against them. They don't really need more than 2 lands to put the pressure on and can always find extras with Traverse.
I'd probably still bring it in just so I have chump blockers with an additional use but expecting it to 'screw them pretty hard' is too optimistic in my book.
I think it can. They only have 6 producing lands in the whole deck, and, if they run a white splash, they have only 1 white source. Besides that, I think it can really hurt them if you go for their black mana. Actually, there was a game of Sam Black vs. Nikachu in GP Vancouver Semifinals where you see an similar example. In that game Spreading Seas did hose Sam extremely and caused Sam to loose. Now its not Fulminator, but I think it shows that Death Shadow is vulnerable to such mana denial effects.
That being said, I admit that its no guarantee to screw them hard (Spreading Seas is of course more efficient there), but, I believe you at least have the potential to screw them.
Just wanted to let you know that I've written an article on Jund's state in the metagame, which you can find here. Check it out and let me know what you think.
The good thing about having Jund is that no matter what its position is in Modern you are only one or two sets away from having something new
printed to help. Kolaghan's command, Kalitas, and Collected Brutality are all examples of why this deck will remain a power house in Modern.
I honestly don't think Fulminator is that good against them. They don't really need more than 2 lands to put the pressure on and can always find extras with Traverse.
I'd probably still bring it in just so I have chump blockers with an additional use but expecting it to 'screw them pretty hard' is too optimistic in my book.
I think you underestimate how much they need their lands. Sometimes you can keep them off a color.
Just wanted to let you know that I've written an article on Jund's state in the metagame, which you can find here. Check it out and let me know what you think.
I'm just going to say that I think you're off on a few points and are ignoring other changes in the live and online metagame.
For instance, you mention that Burn is a bad match for Death's Shadow but don't also recognize the huge uptick in Burn online and live. Affinity also seems to be making a little resurgence online. These decks are the only thing holding back big mana decks largely because Infect fell off the map. They're also decks traditional has a better chance against because Affinity goes wide and can chump while Burn you have to be careful against. I've seen so many get roasted by Deflecting Palm lately that I'm beginning to wonder why anyone plays it right now in this metagame.
There's also no mention of the match up between traditional Jund and its Death's Shadow counterpart. So far, everything I'm seeing is coming up great for traditional Jund.
Grixis control isn't new either. Its a grind-fest and it really comes down to who draws what and not making mistakes. That match has been fairly even in my experience but you list it as a slightly unfavorable which I don't understand.
Finally, the biggest thing the Death's Shadow analysis missed is the difficulty in piloting the deck properly. This will probably be the largest barrier to players who don't get to test as often as pros do (read: the "rest of us"). The learning curve is huge.
Burkhart's Grixis is pretty new. Before that, the decks were muddling around in more midrange/"Blue Jund" territory and trying to walk the line between discard and countermagic. His version is more focused, and has really only been around since GP Dallas (in part because it couldn't exist until the Ancestral Vision unban). I'm of the opinion that it's a worse matchup for Jund than any of the "Blue Jund" decks ever were.
Burn is indeed up thanks to Death's Shadow, but its share is not higher than the big mana decks put together, which Jund really struggles against (whereas Shadow is fine, from what I hear). Taking a hit in 6-7% of your matchups to boost 8-9% (which is what Tron and Titanshift have together) from "hopeless" to "winnable" is a pretty big net plus in my book, local meta factors notwithstanding. I also have no evidence to suggest that Affinity is a tangibly worse matchup for Death's Shadow than it is for Jund. They have plenty of discard and removal to hang in there G1, and they typically pack Lingering Souls in the sideboard, which is huge against Affinity. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, that would be neat.
I would expect Jund to be favored against Shadow, but not by much. Matchup looks pretty even on either side. The skill ceiling argument is a legitimate one, but it clearly isn't stopping that many people from doing well with it. It's not only pros piloting the deck to success.
I would play a 4/3/2 split on fetches (Verdant/Bloodstained/Wooded) if you run 2 Swamps and 2 forests.
Blood Moon has fallen out of favour, yeah. Fulminator is more narrow, but won't hurt us ourself like BM does. If you play BM, however, play 4 basics (either 3 swamp/1 Forest or 2/2 split).
Looks good to me. Not sure I would cut down on fetches, but seems not wrong either.
Great point on Tireless Tracker. Thank you for your reply.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Thanks, glad that the primer is enjoyable and helpful!
In which part do you think Blood Moon is oversuggested? I recently tried to focus more on Fulminator but just let Blood Moon in the primer, for anyone who wants to run BM.
It seems like fulminator is the better option. Barring me opening a few mm3 blood moons tomorrow, I'm gonna buy a playset of fulminators then.
I would side out TS and keep IOK. Some discard is great for snapping traverses or their threats, whatever is present you got no answer for.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yea, I did this the last couple times I played against Death's Shadow Jund. It was really good. If you don't have efficient removal to bring in, I'd keep the discard in after sideboard.
Surgical is definitely a house against them. If they play discard against you, they're pretty obligated to take it no matter how great the rest of your hand looks like.
So, in general whats your sideboard plan look like and what are you guys bringing in for the matchup and taking out?
I'd probably still bring it in just so I have chump blockers with an additional use but expecting it to 'screw them pretty hard' is too optimistic in my book.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
That being said, I admit that its no guarantee to screw them hard (Spreading Seas is of course more efficient there), but, I believe you at least have the potential to screw them.
Just wanted to let you know that I've written an article on Jund's state in the metagame, which you can find here. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
printed to help. Kolaghan's command, Kalitas, and Collected Brutality are all examples of why this deck will remain a power house in Modern.
I think you underestimate how much they need their lands. Sometimes you can keep them off a color.
I'm just going to say that I think you're off on a few points and are ignoring other changes in the live and online metagame.
For instance, you mention that Burn is a bad match for Death's Shadow but don't also recognize the huge uptick in Burn online and live. Affinity also seems to be making a little resurgence online. These decks are the only thing holding back big mana decks largely because Infect fell off the map. They're also decks traditional has a better chance against because Affinity goes wide and can chump while Burn you have to be careful against. I've seen so many get roasted by Deflecting Palm lately that I'm beginning to wonder why anyone plays it right now in this metagame.
There's also no mention of the match up between traditional Jund and its Death's Shadow counterpart. So far, everything I'm seeing is coming up great for traditional Jund.
Grixis control isn't new either. Its a grind-fest and it really comes down to who draws what and not making mistakes. That match has been fairly even in my experience but you list it as a slightly unfavorable which I don't understand.
Finally, the biggest thing the Death's Shadow analysis missed is the difficulty in piloting the deck properly. This will probably be the largest barrier to players who don't get to test as often as pros do (read: the "rest of us"). The learning curve is huge.
Burn is indeed up thanks to Death's Shadow, but its share is not higher than the big mana decks put together, which Jund really struggles against (whereas Shadow is fine, from what I hear). Taking a hit in 6-7% of your matchups to boost 8-9% (which is what Tron and Titanshift have together) from "hopeless" to "winnable" is a pretty big net plus in my book, local meta factors notwithstanding. I also have no evidence to suggest that Affinity is a tangibly worse matchup for Death's Shadow than it is for Jund. They have plenty of discard and removal to hang in there G1, and they typically pack Lingering Souls in the sideboard, which is huge against Affinity. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, that would be neat.
I would expect Jund to be favored against Shadow, but not by much. Matchup looks pretty even on either side. The skill ceiling argument is a legitimate one, but it clearly isn't stopping that many people from doing well with it. It's not only pros piloting the deck to success.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers: