Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
Hellkite is good, I'm even playing one MB in my souls-infested meta but that's a niche case. Flying 5/5 haste puts on serious pressure and only path / terminate can deal with it.
Only Path / Terminate? And about a million other removal spells that aren't called Fatal Push.
That isn't to dispute the quality of Thundermaw Hellkite, but just a reality check.
Just bought a couple of Hazoret and a Glorybringer and i'll be testing them tonight. I agree with the idea that there might be a few synergies problems though.
For those who have tested it, is there a change in the gameplan? Yes we have ways to rip the hand of the opponent and then going discard mode with lili. In that gameplan Hazoret seems a legit threat that we can ride to victory once the resources from both players are exhausted.
But what about burying the opponent in CA with Bob or painful truths and just outvalue them. In that case Hazoret is probably hittinh the battlefield later and maybe never becoming a creature. We can't discard for his ability since we're supposed to run better cards that the opponent.
Maybe the deck is flexible enough that can adapt it's style while on the move, or maybe Hazoret requires some back up, it just feels to weird thinking i'll have a Bob and Hazoret in my opening and just wish that Bob will eat a removal (which happens very often) so i can eventually play Hazoret and close out the game.
Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
Hellkite is good, I'm even playing one MB in my souls-infested meta but that's a niche case. Flying 5/5 haste puts on serious pressure and only path / terminate can deal with it.
Only Path / Terminate? And about a million other removal spells that aren't called Fatal Push.
That isn't to dispute the quality of Thundermaw Hellkite, but just a reality check.
Yeah good call bro, Go For the Throat sees so much Modern play after all. I was about to sideboard a Hellkite but I just got my reality checked pretty hard so I'm just gonna sell Jund instead.
so i tested the 11 creature suite with Hazoret, Hellkite and 8 discard spells and found it pretty tough to turn the corner against aggressive decks unless you have an early goyf. for example, against stompy green, they will exhaust your removals and a confidant wont do much on defense.
i moved hellkite now to SB and cut a thoughtseize for 2 ooze which i liked better. Will continue to do more testing.
I was able to get some testing in tonight and this is what I ran. I threw the sideboard together but I think I would prefer to have a 2nd Damnation over the 2nd Kitchen Finks. Maybe even one or two more changes.
The main purpose of the testing was to get a feel for Hazoret, having a slightly overall lower average CMC to be able to empty my hand a little easier in the instance that I have Hazoret in hand and want to slam and go to town ASAP, and also to see how eight MD discard felt. I think Scavenging Ooze is well positioned right now so I'm not willing to drop them like some of the recent lists that include Glorybringer. My friend was on Abzan Company with the new Vizier of Remedies combo.
Preboard 2-2
Postboard 4-0
Out:
4 Iok
4 LotV
1 TS
In:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
I'm obviously heavily favored postboard with everything I brought in so the 4-0 result wasn't a huge surprise. From the eight games, I was fortunate enough to have Hazoret in hand during multiple situations. One thing I really liked about this list was that I was, on multiple occasions, I was able to go T1 discard, T2 discard, T3 LotV, which is going to be great for disrupting your opponent's game plan no matter what deck they are playing. Hazoret was always most effective when I was able to T3 LotV, making it easier to be down to one card or less for attacking/blocking. The amount of pressure it put on my opponent was also very high, coupled with removal it basically gave them one turn to combo off before they were forced to chump block with combo pieces or risk a bolt in hand coupled with an activation for lethal. The reach was also relevant, I was able to win on a gummed up board with a couple activations.
Previously in the thread, I know there were some people voicing concerns about how Hazoret plays with Bob so I'll address what I experienced. The times I was able to stick Bob, I was drawing so many cards that having a dead Hazoret in my hand was not even a concern, I just won those games on sheer card advantage. Or maybe I was able to draw two or three cards before they found removal, then I just wasn't able to play Hazoret on T4 but as long as I had extra interaction or creatures then I wasn't in a hurry because Goyf was basically playing the same role as the early beater or blocker.
My overall initial impression is that Hazoret is a 4-drop that will be effective much more than it is ineffective, solidly cementing a place in my personal toolbox of Jund 4-drops. It has real strength in game one of any match-up, which is not true for all of our 4-drops. I think most Jund players have switched to DS because of the immense pressure Shadow puts on opponents and I think this card does somewhat of the same, without being as large as Shadow but being much more resilient to removal. My opponent boarded in PtE but was never able to keep one in hand with my disruption before I ever cast Hazoret. I will continue to do more testing this week, specifically against Eldrazi Tron and Burn. I would encourage anyone who has not tested with Hazoret to try it out, it allows us to be slightly more threatening while continuing to play our traditional style.
I was able to get some testing in tonight and this is what I ran. I threw the sideboard together but I think I would prefer to have a 2nd Damnation over the 2nd Kitchen Finks. Maybe even one or two more changes.
The main purpose of the testing was to get a feel for Hazoret, having a slightly overall lower average CMC to be able to empty my hand a little easier in the instance that I have Hazoret in hand and want to slam and go to town ASAP, and also to see how eight MD discard felt. I think Scavenging Ooze is well positioned right now so I'm not willing to drop them like some of the recent lists that include Glorybringer. My friend was on Abzan Company with the new Vizier of Remedies combo.
Preboard 2-2
Postboard 4-0
Out:
4 Iok
4 LotV
1 TS
In:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
I'm obviously heavily favored postboard with everything I brought in so the 4-0 result wasn't a huge surprise. From the eight games, I was fortunate enough to have Hazoret in hand during multiple situations. One thing I really liked about this list was that I was, on multiple occasions, I was able to go T1 discard, T2 discard, T3 LotV, which is going to be great for disrupting your opponent's game plan no matter what deck they are playing. Hazoret was always most effective when I was able to T3 LotV, making it easier to be down to one card or less for attacking/blocking. The amount of pressure it put on my opponent was also very high, coupled with removal it basically gave them one turn to combo off before they were forced to chump block with combo pieces or risk a bolt in hand coupled with an activation for lethal. The reach was also relevant, I was able to win on a gummed up board with a couple activations.
Previously in the thread, I know there were some people voicing concerns about how Hazoret plays with Bob so I'll address what I experienced. The times I was able to stick Bob, I was drawing so many cards that having a dead Hazoret in my hand was not even a concern, I just won those games on sheer card advantage. Or maybe I was able to draw two or three cards before they found removal, then I just wasn't able to play Hazoret on T4 but as long as I had extra interaction or creatures then I wasn't in a hurry because Goyf was basically playing the same role as the early beater or blocker.
My overall initial impression is that Hazoret is a 4-drop that will be effective much more than it is ineffective, solidly cementing a place in my personal toolbox of Jund 4-drops. It has real strength in game one of any match-up, which is not true for all of our 4-drops. I think most Jund players have switched to DS because of the immense pressure Shadow puts on opponents and I think this card does somewhat of the same, without being as large as Shadow but being much more resilient to removal. My opponent boarded in PtE but was never able to keep one in hand with my disruption before I ever cast Hazoret. I will continue to do more testing this week, specifically against Eldrazi Tron and Burn. I would encourage anyone who has not tested with Hazoret to try it out, it allows us to be slightly more threatening while continuing to play our traditional style.
Honestly, after reading a lot of the situations where hazorat is good... I'm starting to feel like it's more of a "win more card".
In nearly every single situation described where the God was amazing... the Jund player was already winning and/or ahead.
If you have a turn 3 liliana that sticks... you already have a high statistical chance of winning that game.
If you are able to take a removal spell off of discard, you are are also in a very good spot.
My hunch is Hazorate requires other cards to actually be good.
Serious Axman, you keep repeating your opinion man.. this guy gives his review and you put it in the ground.
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
I really hate to exclude people from discussions but the last five pages have just been a quagmire of complete nonsense, instigated by entirely unfounded information.
I could barge in here now and say everyone's wrong about sideboarding Hellkite because it won me 2 games against Abzan so we should all run two copies in the main and if you don't I will nag and whine ad nauseam and it would be just as useful. Ignore.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
Serious Axman, you keep repeating your opinion man.. this guy gives his review and you put it in the ground.
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
I really hate to exclude people from discussions but the last five pages have just been a quagmire of complete nonsense, instigated by entirely unfounded information.
I could barge in here now and say everyone's wrong about sideboarding Hellkite because it won me 2 games against Abzan so we should all run two copies in the main and if you don't I will nag and whine ad nauseam and it would be just as useful. Ignore.
Then prove it
The entire point of these forums is to create the best, most optimum version of Jund.
This is why every time I ask the same question because no one has answered it yet.
And no. I did not base my opinion on the following
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not just basing it on two games.
Also - I never said Tron was a good matchup. Please stop lying to prove a point. Then maybe we can actually have some constructive debates.
I am basing it on 6 pages of testimony where every single game hazrat the fervent has been good the Jund player was already winning Every single example thusfar.
There is not ONE example posted where the God won a game that the Jund player would have absolutely lost otherwise. Hence my reservations. I don't want to play "win more" cards in my deck.
Does Jund really want to play a four drop that is only good if you are already winning the game?
Amen.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
I've personally never liked Blood Moon in Jund. Mostly because it can really mess up your own mana base (needing double black and in some cases post board double green). Although it is more "powerful" than fuminator... this is mostly due to the surprise factor. Tron can play around blood moon fairly easily. (blood moon is not the biggest card they fear). The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
From my experience: I've found blood moon to be more successful at local metas and less powerful at big events.
Also- if you are cutting bolts and heavy read cards, I could see going to 2 blackcleave 2 blooming marsh.
Serious Axman, you keep repeating your opinion man.. this guy gives his review and you put it in the ground.
I am not knocking his review at all... just stating that based on the description he was already winning at that point in time.
Hazorat did not "win him the game". It allowed him to close the game, sure. But based on the exact game descriptions written above... he was already winning (and most likely would have won even if Hazorat has been a different card).
Should we not take that into consideration when evaluating cards?
My statement that he was already winning was not an opinion. It was a derived fact based on the description of the game state.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
As far as the fastlands are concerned, I think it boils down to whether or not you are playing Lightning Bolt and how many, if you are playing it. When I tried out a boltless list with four Fatal Push I went to the 2/2 split and it seemed fine. I would probably say that if you are on at least three Bolts, it would be better to have that T1 pain-free land that can work with discard, Bolt, and Push and I'd go with a minimum of 3 Cliffs.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
As far as the fastlands are concerned, I think it boils down to whether or not you are playing Lightning Bolt and how many, if you are playing it. When I tried out a boltless list with four Fatal Push I went to the 2/2 split and it seemed fine. I would probably say that if you are on at least three Bolts, it would be better to have that T1 pain-free land that can work with discard, Bolt, and Push and I'd go with a minimum of 3 Cliffs.
Regardless the Hazoret discussion... I bought a couple of them and a Glorybringer yesterday, so now I'm able to test her out and see with she's a "win more" card. I see her potential and suprise factor..Have to test and test, and test a bit more.
Not sold on the dragon yet though.
Round One: Blue Moon 2-1
Game 1 he has everything (counters, removal, and spreading seas). I keep a hand with 3 bobs, goyf, ooze, and lands. I play the goyf and ooze first (to draw out counter magic and spells). Despite that... he still is able to keep all three bobs from hitting the table. In addition he plays 3 spreading seas this game... I loose steam.
Game 2 & 3 - I draw discard heavy hands and am able to play around his disruption.
Round Two: Cheroies 2-0
Discard + removal game 1 makes it an easy win. He mulls to 5 game 2.
Round Three: Bant Eldrazi 0-2
Game 1 he turn 3 TKS taking my only relevent removal spell (liliana). I never draw anything else relevant and quickly loose.
Game 2 I misplay. I play Liliana knowing he has a reality smasher in hand (should have held on to it).
Round Four: Illusions 2-0
Super easy matchup. Damnation won me game 2.
The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
It is far from an autowin if you mean that. It is strong, sure, but actually the same like Blood Moon if they can't remove it. Eventually they will hit 7 lands and slam a Karn or Wurmcoil on 6. If you don't have a fast clock combined with fulminator+surgical, it won't do anything. The only downside of Blood Moon is that it can be removed and Tron can get back online in such a case, but otherwise its not far worse than Fulminator+Surgical. And to note, you need two cards in order to pull the combo off, not only 1.
That being said, I am right now also off the BM train, and running Fulminators, but not because I like them so much, only because we have to and its the best thing we have available. Its definitely not impossible to win for tron after Fulminator+Surgical if you ask me.
The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
It is far from an autowin if you mean that. It is strong, sure, but actually the same like Blood Moon if they can't remove it. Eventually they will hit 7 lands and slam a Karn or Wurmcoil on 6. If you don't have a fast clock combined with fulminator+surgical, it won't do anything. The only downside of Blood Moon is that it can be removed and Tron can get back online in such a case, but otherwise its not far worse than Fulminator+Surgical. And to note, you need two cards in order to pull the combo off, not only 1.
That being said, I am right now also off the BM train, and running Fulminators, but not because I like them so much, only because we have to and its the best thing we have available. Its definitely not impossible to win for tron after Fulminator+Surgical if you ask me.
No. I mean fuminator mage is harder to play around as it requires drawing either an additional tron piece or a karn to reset the game.
Against blood moon they can draw karn, Ugin, Nature's Claim (post board) or oblivion stone (only the claim is not a main decked card).
EDIT: what I was trying to say "poorly" is Tron has far more outs vs a blood moon than a fuminator mage + surgical extraction. Jund typically has a fast enough clock and enough creatures post board where a turn 7 karn isn't all that scary.
Plus you often leave in thought-seizes against Tron as well.
Guys what do you thing about hazoret(the new red god) in the main deck ? Or chandra torch of defense? And what about playing grove of the burnwillows against death's shadow decks? For now i am playing 2 raging ravines and 3 groves, i am thinking about 3 raging ravnes and 2 groves (i am playing witthout stomping ground,to mutch rg sources, so i play with 2 blood cryptic and 1 overgrown tomb). And i will try 1 chandra and 1 hazoret in as drop 4, what do you guys thing about that changes? Should i play with 3 raging ravnes? Not worth it to play with groves?
Guys what do you thing about hazoret(the new red god) in the main deck ? Or chandra torch of defense? And what about playing grove of the burnwillows against death's shadow decks? For now i am playing 2 raging ravines and 3 groves, i am thinking about 3 raging ravnes and 2 groves (i am playing witthout stomping ground,to mutch rg sources, so i play with 2 blood cryptic and 1 overgrown tomb). And i will try 1 chandra and 1 hazoret in as drop 4, what do you guys thing about that changes? Should i play with 3 raging ravnes? Not worth it to play with groves?
I think you're trying to get too cute, but you should probably post a list. There may be other choices you've made that might make sense of your question.
Guys what do you thing about hazoret(the new red god) in the main deck ? Or chandra torch of defense? And what about playing grove of the burnwillows against death's shadow decks? For now i am playing 2 raging ravines and 3 groves, i am thinking about 3 raging ravnes and 2 groves (i am playing witthout stomping ground,to mutch rg sources, so i play with 2 blood cryptic and 1 overgrown tomb). And i will try 1 chandra and 1 hazoret in as drop 4, what do you guys thing about that changes? Should i play with 3 raging ravnes? Not worth it to play with groves?
I really really like Chandra. She's been amazing for me in nearly every single matchup.
Only Path / Terminate? And about a million other removal spells that aren't called Fatal Push.
That isn't to dispute the quality of Thundermaw Hellkite, but just a reality check.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
For those who have tested it, is there a change in the gameplan? Yes we have ways to rip the hand of the opponent and then going discard mode with lili. In that gameplan Hazoret seems a legit threat that we can ride to victory once the resources from both players are exhausted.
But what about burying the opponent in CA with Bob or painful truths and just outvalue them. In that case Hazoret is probably hittinh the battlefield later and maybe never becoming a creature. We can't discard for his ability since we're supposed to run better cards that the opponent.
Maybe the deck is flexible enough that can adapt it's style while on the move, or maybe Hazoret requires some back up, it just feels to weird thinking i'll have a Bob and Hazoret in my opening and just wish that Bob will eat a removal (which happens very often) so i can eventually play Hazoret and close out the game.
Yeah good call bro, Go For the Throat sees so much Modern play after all. I was about to sideboard a Hellkite but I just got my reality checked pretty hard so I'm just gonna sell Jund instead.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
i moved hellkite now to SB and cut a thoughtseize for 2 ooze which i liked better. Will continue to do more testing.
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Hazoret the Fervent
Instants and Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
3 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
The main purpose of the testing was to get a feel for Hazoret, having a slightly overall lower average CMC to be able to empty my hand a little easier in the instance that I have Hazoret in hand and want to slam and go to town ASAP, and also to see how eight MD discard felt. I think Scavenging Ooze is well positioned right now so I'm not willing to drop them like some of the recent lists that include Glorybringer. My friend was on Abzan Company with the new Vizier of Remedies combo.
Preboard 2-2
Postboard 4-0
Out:
4 Iok
4 LotV
1 TS
In:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
I'm obviously heavily favored postboard with everything I brought in so the 4-0 result wasn't a huge surprise. From the eight games, I was fortunate enough to have Hazoret in hand during multiple situations. One thing I really liked about this list was that I was, on multiple occasions, I was able to go T1 discard, T2 discard, T3 LotV, which is going to be great for disrupting your opponent's game plan no matter what deck they are playing. Hazoret was always most effective when I was able to T3 LotV, making it easier to be down to one card or less for attacking/blocking. The amount of pressure it put on my opponent was also very high, coupled with removal it basically gave them one turn to combo off before they were forced to chump block with combo pieces or risk a bolt in hand coupled with an activation for lethal. The reach was also relevant, I was able to win on a gummed up board with a couple activations.
Previously in the thread, I know there were some people voicing concerns about how Hazoret plays with Bob so I'll address what I experienced. The times I was able to stick Bob, I was drawing so many cards that having a dead Hazoret in my hand was not even a concern, I just won those games on sheer card advantage. Or maybe I was able to draw two or three cards before they found removal, then I just wasn't able to play Hazoret on T4 but as long as I had extra interaction or creatures then I wasn't in a hurry because Goyf was basically playing the same role as the early beater or blocker.
My overall initial impression is that Hazoret is a 4-drop that will be effective much more than it is ineffective, solidly cementing a place in my personal toolbox of Jund 4-drops. It has real strength in game one of any match-up, which is not true for all of our 4-drops. I think most Jund players have switched to DS because of the immense pressure Shadow puts on opponents and I think this card does somewhat of the same, without being as large as Shadow but being much more resilient to removal. My opponent boarded in PtE but was never able to keep one in hand with my disruption before I ever cast Hazoret. I will continue to do more testing this week, specifically against Eldrazi Tron and Burn. I would encourage anyone who has not tested with Hazoret to try it out, it allows us to be slightly more threatening while continuing to play our traditional style.
Honestly, after reading a lot of the situations where hazorat is good... I'm starting to feel like it's more of a "win more card".
In nearly every single situation described where the God was amazing... the Jund player was already winning and/or ahead.
If you have a turn 3 liliana that sticks... you already have a high statistical chance of winning that game.
If you are able to take a removal spell off of discard, you are are also in a very good spot.
My hunch is Hazorate requires other cards to actually be good.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
I really hate to exclude people from discussions but the last five pages have just been a quagmire of complete nonsense, instigated by entirely unfounded information.
I could barge in here now and say everyone's wrong about sideboarding Hellkite because it won me 2 games against Abzan so we should all run two copies in the main and if you don't I will nag and whine ad nauseam and it would be just as useful. Ignore.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
Then prove it
The entire point of these forums is to create the best, most optimum version of Jund.
This is why every time I ask the same question because no one has answered it yet.
And no. I did not base my opinion on the following
Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not just basing it on two games.
Also - I never said Tron was a good matchup. Please stop lying to prove a point. Then maybe we can actually have some constructive debates.
I am basing it on 6 pages of testimony where every single game hazrat the fervent has been good the Jund player was already winning
Every single example thusfar.
There is not ONE example posted where the God won a game that the Jund player would have absolutely lost otherwise. Hence my reservations. I don't want to play "win more" cards in my deck.
Does Jund really want to play a four drop that is only good if you are already winning the game?
I've personally never liked Blood Moon in Jund. Mostly because it can really mess up your own mana base (needing double black and in some cases post board double green). Although it is more "powerful" than fuminator... this is mostly due to the surprise factor. Tron can play around blood moon fairly easily. (blood moon is not the biggest card they fear). The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
From my experience: I've found blood moon to be more successful at local metas and less powerful at big events.
Also- if you are cutting bolts and heavy read cards, I could see going to 2 blackcleave 2 blooming marsh.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I am not knocking his review at all... just stating that based on the description he was already winning at that point in time.
Hazorat did not "win him the game". It allowed him to close the game, sure. But based on the exact game descriptions written above... he was already winning (and most likely would have won even if Hazorat has been a different card).
Should we not take that into consideration when evaluating cards?
My statement that he was already winning was not an opinion. It was a derived fact based on the description of the game state.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
As far as the fastlands are concerned, I think it boils down to whether or not you are playing Lightning Bolt and how many, if you are playing it. When I tried out a boltless list with four Fatal Push I went to the 2/2 split and it seemed fine. I would probably say that if you are on at least three Bolts, it would be better to have that T1 pain-free land that can work with discard, Bolt, and Push and I'd go with a minimum of 3 Cliffs.
I'd agree with this 100%.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Not sold on the dragon yet though.
UR Twin - RIP
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
4x lightning bolt
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Terminate
Sorcery (7)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker (5)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Liliana of the Veil
Round One: Blue Moon 2-1
Game 1 he has everything (counters, removal, and spreading seas). I keep a hand with 3 bobs, goyf, ooze, and lands. I play the goyf and ooze first (to draw out counter magic and spells). Despite that... he still is able to keep all three bobs from hitting the table. In addition he plays 3 spreading seas this game... I loose steam.
Game 2 & 3 - I draw discard heavy hands and am able to play around his disruption.
Round Two: Cheroies 2-0
Discard + removal game 1 makes it an easy win. He mulls to 5 game 2.
Round Three: Bant Eldrazi 0-2
Game 1 he turn 3 TKS taking my only relevent removal spell (liliana). I never draw anything else relevant and quickly loose.
Game 2 I misplay. I play Liliana knowing he has a reality smasher in hand (should have held on to it).
Round Four: Illusions 2-0
Super easy matchup. Damnation won me game 2.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
It is far from an autowin if you mean that. It is strong, sure, but actually the same like Blood Moon if they can't remove it. Eventually they will hit 7 lands and slam a Karn or Wurmcoil on 6. If you don't have a fast clock combined with fulminator+surgical, it won't do anything. The only downside of Blood Moon is that it can be removed and Tron can get back online in such a case, but otherwise its not far worse than Fulminator+Surgical. And to note, you need two cards in order to pull the combo off, not only 1.
That being said, I am right now also off the BM train, and running Fulminators, but not because I like them so much, only because we have to and its the best thing we have available. Its definitely not impossible to win for tron after Fulminator+Surgical if you ask me.
No. I mean fuminator mage is harder to play around as it requires drawing either an additional tron piece or a karn to reset the game.
Against blood moon they can draw karn, Ugin, Nature's Claim (post board) or oblivion stone (only the claim is not a main decked card).
EDIT: what I was trying to say "poorly" is Tron has far more outs vs a blood moon than a fuminator mage + surgical extraction. Jund typically has a fast enough clock and enough creatures post board where a turn 7 karn isn't all that scary.
Plus you often leave in thought-seizes against Tron as well.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I think you're trying to get too cute, but you should probably post a list. There may be other choices you've made that might make sense of your question.
I really really like Chandra. She's been amazing for me in nearly every single matchup.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA