I'm really digging this list with rabblemasters. Not a fan of the dreadbore, that'll turn into a third terminate. I'll probably sleeve this up and try it at FNM tonight
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
@Grindor, Your third statement doesn't make sense. It seems like you're saying I should just get lucky or play more threats/spells. The point is consistency not building the proper deck. Obviously if I have what I need when I need it, none of this would be a problem. Drawing the wrong half of the deck would also be less of an issue (not completely gone but there's a chance to work through it). Clearly I think you mean something else because that's like saying Death's Shadow is doing it wrong because they need more other things and less draw spells.
If you're casting Painful Truths for X = 1, I think you're just doing it wrong. Also, I'm not a fan of adding more 3-CMC spells.
For the sake of the argument, I'll explain my cases, but then we should all just get back to Jund stuff.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
For the sake of the argument, I'll explain my cases, but then we should all just get back to Jund stuff.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
That's just me, man lol
So yea... you're basically saying "just hope to get lucky."
-I think you are getting off track with red. The reason to be Jund is KCommand, Ravine, Termiante and Bloodmoon (Not to play moon is atm just wrong).
-rabblemaster is fine for a good clock.
-I think 6 Lilians in the 75 is right.
-If you wand card draw just play tracker, she is insane value as a 4 Drop (play him play fetch, crack fetch when opp taps out or casts removal)
-3 Basics and moon is fine and can work.
-I want 4 Land hate cards in my sidebaord atm, so the question is 2 Moon and 2 Fulmi or 3 Moon, 1 Fulmi?
Stay on the Jund Path
3 basics only with BM seems crazy. You know other decks actually side BM in against us in some cases? I have played BM a lot in Jund already, its definitely a double edged sword, and you often loose to yourself by doing suboptimal things (like fetching for basics and therefore limiting colour sources just to have a potential topdecked BM played)
For the sake of the argument, I'll explain my cases, but then we should all just get back to Jund stuff.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
That's just me, man lol
IDK if you played Jund in the pre ban era, but back then there we could talk about answering everything and about efficiency. The reality is that nowadays half of our deck is either too situational or dead in the first placecfor the overall meta. In the past every card did likely find its targets and we could speak of value when resolving our cards. Right now I more often than not am sitting with a full hand and think to myself: This is ridiculous, I can't do anything against this. This is a true sign that Jund needs something in order to shine again. Yes, Jund ideally wants to work that way you described, but the problem is, we just don't have the tools to have versatile and efficient answers. Half of the format is just dodging Push and Bolt. This is not a great time to be a Jund player.
And TBH I also don't like those approaches to turn the Jund deck into a semi aggro deck with those Rabblemasters and BM shenanigans. It seems more desperate than a real plan for me. And thats why discussing new things like suggesting to have more draw options seems interesting for me at least.
The only other idea I could come up with was to make energy somewhat viable in Modern for Glint-Sleeve Siphoner. Maybe it's good enough on its own? I have no idea how energy would fit into Jund.
I'm really digging this list with rabblemasters. Not a fan of the dreadbore, that'll turn into a third terminate. I'll probably sleeve this up and try it at FNM tonight
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
Sign in Blood has the humorous ability to kill a Worshiper or hose an Ensnaring Bridge. Both may seem like Magic Christmasland but I'd still play SiB before Night's Whisper, at least in a heavy-B deck.
That said, I don't think I would play Sign in Blood in Jund.
About the consistency issue...connecting once or twice with a Grim Flayer does a LOT to help set up your draws and the first hit is quite likely to turn on Delirium if you don't have it already. I've also been playing with a singleton mainboard Traverse(and another in the sideboard) and I feel its helped with consistency as well. Especially post-board. Having a singleton Thrun that you can tutor up with your two Traverses is a lot better than just the Thrun after all.
About the consistency issue...connecting once or twice with a Grim Flayer does a LOT to help set up your draws and the first hit is quite likely to turn on Delirium if you don't have it already. I've also been playing with a singleton mainboard Traverse(and another in the sideboard) and I feel its helped with consistency as well. Especially post-board. Having a singleton Thrun that you can tutor up with your two Traverses is a lot better than just the Thrun after all.
Played Grim Flayer a lot, its a prime example of not being consistant actually. Delirium is a very swingy mechanic, you either have to support it by playing edgy cards (which makes our deck even more situational than it already is) or playing none and just hope to have delirium. As a comparison, played a lot of that Death's Shadow Jund deck popular in the beginning of the new meta, and this deck had a crap load of support for delirium and even there I definitely could not speak of satisfactory consistancy. I hated it.
The only other idea I could come up with was to make energy somewhat viable in Modern for Glint-Sleeve Siphoner. Maybe it's good enough on its own? I have no idea how energy would fit into Jund.
I think menace is nice on this creature, but what bothers me is that you have to skip your first upkeep without drawing an extra card (assuming you only play this as an energy source). If it came into play with 2 energy already, it would be quite deece I guess.
I'm really digging this list with rabblemasters. Not a fan of the dreadbore, that'll turn into a third terminate. I'll probably sleeve this up and try it at FNM tonight
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
Sign in Blood has the humorous ability to kill a Worshiper or hose an Ensnaring Bridge. Both may seem like Magic Christmasland but I'd still play SiB before Night's Whisper, at least in a heavy-B deck.
That said, I don't think I would play Sign in Blood in Jund.
You need 20 black sources (untapped) to consistantly hit double black on turn 2, most Jund lists only play 18 and even 17 in those greedy 23 land versions. I think those interaction you said are neat and all, but Night's Whisper being more easily cast is way better.
About the consistency issue...connecting once or twice with a Grim Flayer does a LOT to help set up your draws and the first hit is quite likely to turn on Delirium if you don't have it already. I've also been playing with a singleton mainboard Traverse(and another in the sideboard) and I feel its helped with consistency as well. Especially post-board. Having a singleton Thrun that you can tutor up with your two Traverses is a lot better than just the Thrun after all.
Played Grim Flayer a lot, its a prime example of not being consistant actually. Delirium is a very swingy mechanic, you either have to support it by playing edgy cards (which makes our deck even more situational than it already is) or playing none and just hope to have delirium. As a comparison, played a lot of that Death's Shadow Jund deck popular in the beginning of the new meta, and this deck had a crap load of support for delirium and even there I definitely could not speak of satisfactory consistancy. I hated it.
It being a 4/4 might be inconsistent. It filtering your draws doesn't require having delirium. It adds consistency even if it might not be consistent. It'd definitely be better with less GY hate floating around but it's been working for me. I don't play any delirium enablers mainboard either.
About the consistency issue...connecting once or twice with a Grim Flayer does a LOT to help set up your draws and the first hit is quite likely to turn on Delirium if you don't have it already. I've also been playing with a singleton mainboard Traverse(and another in the sideboard) and I feel its helped with consistency as well. Especially post-board. Having a singleton Thrun that you can tutor up with your two Traverses is a lot better than just the Thrun after all.
Played Grim Flayer a lot, its a prime example of not being consistant actually. Delirium is a very swingy mechanic, you either have to support it by playing edgy cards (which makes our deck even more situational than it already is) or playing none and just hope to have delirium. As a comparison, played a lot of that Death's Shadow Jund deck popular in the beginning of the new meta, and this deck had a crap load of support for delirium and even there I definitely could not speak of satisfactory consistancy. I hated it.
It being a 4/4 might be inconsistent. It filtering your draws doesn't require having delirium. It adds consistency even if it might not be consistent. It'd definitely be better with less GY hate floating around but it's been working for me. I don't play any delirium enablers mainboard either.
But you need to connect with him. In times where you often face a turn 2 Tasigur/Angler or a turn 3 TKS/Smasher getting to hit the face does not seem that granted to me. Being a 4/4 helps therefore a lot, which was also shown me through my experience. Ofc the upside is pretty high, but I feel like I can't just rely on Flayer to connect and carry me the game.
Do you guys think Blood Moon is worth it? Most lists seem to play it at the moment but I'm not sure that it's good enough. It did some work for me against E-Tron in the past but against other ramp deck-Titanshift it was pretty useless and hurt me more often than my opponent.
BM on its own is pretty weak and propably not worth it. I personally think its actually not that great against E-Tron/Tron and ok vs. Scapeshift. BM does not hardlock any deck in the format (basically) so you need a fast clock to go alongside BM in order to do some work. Therefore, if you want to run BM, you should definitely run Rabblemaster alongside. It is castable under BM always and takes advantage of the time you get by delaying your opponents big drops.
This is hilarious. It wasn't even a week ago that I was considering dropping red for blue for a GB/x deck and Todd Stevens basically proposed what I was thinking about.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17297&d=306948&f=MO
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
If you're casting Painful Truths for X = 1, I think you're just doing it wrong. Also, I'm not a fan of adding more 3-CMC spells.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
That's just me, man lol
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tireless Tracker
Instant(10)
3 Fatal push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
Sorcery(7)
1 Maelstrom pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the veil
Land(24)
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood crypt
3 Raging Ravine
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Kitchen finks
1 Anger of the gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
3 Blood moon
1 Engineered Explosives
Do I want to try and fit a Damnation in the side board, while keeping Anger of the Gods and Engineered Explosives?
The List:
https://deckstats.net/decks/74507/840714-jund-moon?revision=1
Maybe -1 Swamp + 1 fast Br?
So yea... you're basically saying "just hope to get lucky."
3 basics only with BM seems crazy. You know other decks actually side BM in against us in some cases? I have played BM a lot in Jund already, its definitely a double edged sword, and you often loose to yourself by doing suboptimal things (like fetching for basics and therefore limiting colour sources just to have a potential topdecked BM played)
IDK if you played Jund in the pre ban era, but back then there we could talk about answering everything and about efficiency. The reality is that nowadays half of our deck is either too situational or dead in the first placecfor the overall meta. In the past every card did likely find its targets and we could speak of value when resolving our cards. Right now I more often than not am sitting with a full hand and think to myself: This is ridiculous, I can't do anything against this. This is a true sign that Jund needs something in order to shine again. Yes, Jund ideally wants to work that way you described, but the problem is, we just don't have the tools to have versatile and efficient answers. Half of the format is just dodging Push and Bolt. This is not a great time to be a Jund player.
And TBH I also don't like those approaches to turn the Jund deck into a semi aggro deck with those Rabblemasters and BM shenanigans. It seems more desperate than a real plan for me. And thats why discussing new things like suggesting to have more draw options seems interesting for me at least.
Sign in Blood has the humorous ability to kill a Worshiper or hose an Ensnaring Bridge. Both may seem like Magic Christmasland but I'd still play SiB before Night's Whisper, at least in a heavy-B deck.
That said, I don't think I would play Sign in Blood in Jund.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Played Grim Flayer a lot, its a prime example of not being consistant actually. Delirium is a very swingy mechanic, you either have to support it by playing edgy cards (which makes our deck even more situational than it already is) or playing none and just hope to have delirium. As a comparison, played a lot of that Death's Shadow Jund deck popular in the beginning of the new meta, and this deck had a crap load of support for delirium and even there I definitely could not speak of satisfactory consistancy. I hated it.
I think menace is nice on this creature, but what bothers me is that you have to skip your first upkeep without drawing an extra card (assuming you only play this as an energy source). If it came into play with 2 energy already, it would be quite deece I guess.
You need 20 black sources (untapped) to consistantly hit double black on turn 2, most Jund lists only play 18 and even 17 in those greedy 23 land versions. I think those interaction you said are neat and all, but Night's Whisper being more easily cast is way better.
But I am also not sure we want this or not.
It being a 4/4 might be inconsistent. It filtering your draws doesn't require having delirium. It adds consistency even if it might not be consistent. It'd definitely be better with less GY hate floating around but it's been working for me. I don't play any delirium enablers mainboard either.
But you need to connect with him. In times where you often face a turn 2 Tasigur/Angler or a turn 3 TKS/Smasher getting to hit the face does not seem that granted to me. Being a 4/4 helps therefore a lot, which was also shown me through my experience. Ofc the upside is pretty high, but I feel like I can't just rely on Flayer to connect and carry me the game.
BM on its own is pretty weak and propably not worth it. I personally think its actually not that great against E-Tron/Tron and ok vs. Scapeshift. BM does not hardlock any deck in the format (basically) so you need a fast clock to go alongside BM in order to do some work. Therefore, if you want to run BM, you should definitely run Rabblemaster alongside. It is castable under BM always and takes advantage of the time you get by delaying your opponents big drops.